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FLOWER MOUND

TrainTrain100+ posts
Congrats to SLC for moving on. Also, honestly speaking....congrats to FM for a GREAT season. clap

Now can someone that was at the FM game tell us how it fell apart 2 days in a row in the 7th inning? I was told FM was 1 strike away from moving on ...then some very poor coaching decisions were made once again in game 3.???

Any takers?

Again, congrats to FM for a great season and welcome to a better conference next year. Good Luck Southlake.
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D DownTheLine10+ posts
Did not see Friday's game, but in Saturday's case there were several options on how to play out the top of the seventh. Carroll had enough offense in the lineup that there wasn't an obvious choice. The results are the results. Personally thought pitching to Drescher in the sixth was a riskier move than anything in the 7th, but that one worked out well.

Give credit to two consecutive Carroll hitters (Presley and Bauer) who turned two-strike counts into rbi basehits. And kudos to Chase Reid for coming in and nailing the door shut in the bottom of the inning.
HA honest and unbiased100+ posts
Train,
I don't want this post to take away from what the Southlake kids did because they took advantage of the opportunity presented to them to win 2 games with last inning comebacks. They should be commended for their efforts.

I will say however that FM should have won this series in 2 games in my opinion. As Forrest Gump said "thats all I have to say about that".

See you in a week or two.
Panther DadPanther Dad5,000+ posts
Just a warning guys -- and I know some may criticize me for this position -- but I have strong feelings that this thread should not turn into a rehash of coach bashing --- one coach in particular. If we want to discuss specific "perceived" coaching errors, then fine. But there is absolutely no benefit in restarting a topic that focuses on last year or innuendo and personal attack.

SLC has found a way to win in the playoffs. As H&U mentioned, let's not take away from the kids, on either team. Several 17-18 yr olds stepped up and made big plays in big situations --- something we'd all love our sons to do. And the kids that surrendered hits or made errors or did not come through in huge situations are not failures! It's baseball!

So, if we can keep this discussion positive and specific regarding the series, then it's all good. Smile

Congratulations to both teams -- what a series! The road gets even more interesting now ----- it's a long way to Abilene.
HA honest and unbiased100+ posts
PD,
I agree. Any discussion on this topic should focus on this series or at most on recent events, coaching tendancies, decisions, etc. It does no good to rehash things that happened a year ago.

That said, in most if not all 3 game series, there are usually questions or disagreements with some of the coaching decisions made. This series was no different from the rest.

As long as everybody leaves the kids out of it and the personal attacks out of it, maybe it can be a positive discussion.
Panther DadPanther Dad5,000+ posts
DBall18 --- all playoff teams have talent. SLC seems to find a way to peak at this time of the year. In my opinion, the athletic mentality in South Lake prepares the kids to make the big play, do all for team when it really counts, believe in yourself, etc. It's more than coaches pushing the right buttons. Talent gets you there -- it begins at the freshman and JV levels -- buying in to the mentality, etc. This allows the varsity teams to reload, rather than rebuild. The fact that South Lake has a single HS doesn't hurt. Cool

H&U, I agree....with the obvious understanding that it's easy to coach in hindsight.

So are you saying that Coach Stinson should have flipped for a one-game series??? <--- I'M JOKING!!! Smile
Last edited by Panther Dad
Panther DadPanther Dad5,000+ posts
Of course they aren't the only ones that have it -- many schools do. I'm just mentioning it as one of the ingredients to late-season success -- look at the track records. Coaching decisions are often times key to these series, but is a coach a genius because he inserts a kid in his first varsity game and the kid responds by getting his team out of an inning? Will the same coach be criticized if the inexperienced player walks in a run? He's not a genius or a fool in either case. He has to manage the hand that he has been dealt. The coaches that reach the later playoff rounds year after year must be doing something right.

DBall18 --- if you want to discuss a specific coaching move -- let's get to it. Smile
TrainTrain100+ posts
PD....I understand your involvement over this situation. If I did not know you I would say you were SS. This site allows us to say what we want... when we want.... and I respect you and everyone on here for their opinions ...right or wrong. I do not want to take anything away from SLC as they prevailed and should be congradulated for such accomplishment.

With that said.....here are my opinions.

Did SS not learn anything from last year about starting the 7th inning with a new pitcher in both games instead of waiting til it was too late one year later? Also, I was told that in games 2 and 3 a DH was used that was yet another mistake from last year.... when will this guy learn??

The FM team was a good team as I saw but their head coach is a freshman coach at best ...strike that...a triple A coach at best. Their players deserve more than they received again. H&U...I feel for you and your team but know that in summer ball those mistakes will not be made!! Get ready for a great summer.

FM fans....welcome to a new conference with better competition, fans, and gnats!!! (inside joke with KD). Next year will be a great battle when our 2 teams face off. You were one strike (change up, slider) away from moving on to the next round.

Again, congrats on a GREAT season. applaude applaude applaude
oldbat-neveroldbat-never1,000+ posts
Train,

Even though we have been on opposite sides of the track on most topics, I have to admit that after reading your latest post I was more on your side of the track than mine .......points well stated......

Good Luck to SLC and Congrats to the FM team as they made it a lot further than a lot of us. Scary part about FM is they are returning something like 6 or so of their starters next year............
"Gnat" so nice for our conference...............see you next Spring in conference play Train....

And do try and have a great summer w/H & U!
Last edited by oldbat-never
Panther DadPanther Dad5,000+ posts
Train -- I know part of your deal here is schtick -- which many have come to (secretly) enjoy. And I have no issue with a discussion surrounding coaching decisions -- it's one of the things we do. Just for the record (and I'm sure you know this) -- I don't know SS, I've never met him, I wouldn't even be able to identify him in a lineup. Smile He's not one of our new district coaches, so I have no attachment to him whatsoever. If I tend to defend him, it is more of a generic defense of coaches, who are unduly vilified for one move or another.

Concerning the specific situation you mention in your most recent post, I was not at the games. I spoke to a friend that has a player at SLC (JV call-up) and he did not identify coaching errors....but simply indicated that a few of their kids performed well in the clutch. And, as you know, the news reports focused on the same heroics. I suppose FM followers might question coaching decisions, just as many in the Metroplex have questioned choices made by your guy, but if an occasional "risk" has positive results, then the coach is a "genius" (at least for a day). In this series, the SLC coach closed game 2 with a JV pitcher in his first varsity game (a talented kid that happens to play for DBAT 16 Smile )......the move worked. If it did not work, FM would be considering hotels in Abilene, rather than the Dragons. Would you have also viewed that move as wrong? Last year, SLC did not make it to state with a talented group, including Luna ---- did their coach underachieve?

You probably see my point. A coach does his thing based on spending the year (sometimes years) with a group of kids --- at times, he makes a decision based on a gut-feel, which may go against the expectations of his parents, fans, etc.

Concerning using the DH ---- again, a move that may or may not work out. I mean, you're not talking about whether a coach tries to steal third with a lefty at the plate in a critical situation....or plays his infield in with the score tied....or whatever. Playing time / lineup decisions are even MORE easy to second-guess ----- on Saturday night or thereafter.

Anyway -- hope all goes well for your sons this summer. As you know Plano East has somewhat of a "relationship" with Coppell ---- next year will be a good one for the Cowboys. Your district will certainly be a dog-fight.

-PD
D diamondgirl10+ posts
I have to say that Train is right on in his post. These decisions made by the coach were wrong at the time. The FM kids were short changed again.

The decisions mentioned by Train were just a couple of the problems.

Game 2--- At a minimum 3 players were thrown out on the basepaths. These coaching calls cost the FM team at least 2 runs and 3 more at bats at a minimum. It sure would have been nice to have those 3 outs and runs back.

--- DH that was chosen hit .000 on the year. By the way he stuck out both times this game.
---Pitching--The reliever he stayed with in the 7th struggled in the 6th but got out of the inning. This kid saw maybe 7 or 8 innings all year, maximum of 20-25 pitches per outing.
This was due to coaches not giving him reps.
What is he doing during the top of the 7th while FM is hitting? Throwing over in the bullpen in the 95 degree heat. He was gassed by the time the bottom of the inning started. All of this while he has his game 3 starter sitting on the bench, reaady to go. Thus reliever walks the first batter, hits the second and here we go again.

Game3----FM has SLC on the ropes, just scored 2 runs, one out and a squeeze bunt is called. Turns into double play thus killing the rally and ******* the life out of the kids.

---DH-see game 2 comment

This was part of the problem all year. This coach has no plan. He is obsessed with trying stuff that works with 10 year old rec teams but don't with good High School Teams. He coaches as if he thinks his team is the less talented and has to do this risky stuff to score runs. This is not the case with FM. They hit well all year and were even hitting better during the playoffs as some that had struggled during the year had picked up the pace. The ones that hit well all year were still rolling.

These types of decisions keep the kids from believing in the coach. They knew all year that they had to overcome his decisions and calls. It finally caught up to them. They deserve better than what they got. This team could do better if the coach would just sit back and watch them play or coach themselves.
Panther DadPanther Dad5,000+ posts
DG -- your post is insightful -- and the concerns are legitimate. Train -- why weren't you this specific? hehe. Many HS coaches do not adequately prepare (during the season) for the likelihood of 3-game playoff series....especially from a pitching standpoint. I have no idea why he would insert a new DH. As you probably know, he has used the squeeze play effectively -- in this case, it did not work. It's never the right move when it backfires -- especially when it results in 2 outs, eh?

After reading your post, I can understand these frustrations.

Sharing your opinions was somewhat bold -- thanks!
LT luvs the gameMember
Although I have been reading on the board for awhile I have never posted until today. I must say I think your a great group and and overall very positive. I just wanted to say that I agree 100% with diamond girl. This isn't meant to take anything away from a very talented and competitive SLC team. However, I am very proud of the way the Flower Mound team came together and competed despite being in a very difficult situation.(Did anyone ever hear the coach say anything positive about his team? It was always what the mistakes were, what they had to work on, and how good the opponent was.) These boys should be so proud of themselves for making it as far as they did! Hats off the them!
Panther DadPanther Dad5,000+ posts
H&U -- you are verifying my point -- what makes it a good move or a bad move? In most cases, the end result. I didn't mean to imply that one coach made all the right moves and one did not. The boxscore indicates that EC pitched .2i and gave up 0 runs --- which may be deceiving as there were inherited runners that scored. Again....my point was the move "worked" this time as SLC won the game. The same move may not work next time. Same for sacrificing in some situations --- same for using a DH --- same for.....yadda yadda. I don't have an issue with there being concensus that the coach made poor choices in this game. It happens all the time. I suppose the larger questions (for any coach) are....can he accomplish the team's goals? Does he get the most from his kids? Does he approach the job with integrity? Is he fair? Etc.
TrainTrain100+ posts
I started this discussion and will end it...unless PD decides to add something as he always does Big Grin

Diamond Girl's comments are right on...a little too close to the game as I read it. I feel for you and FM fans that want/need a change over there to get to the next level. I am not the first one to say it but I am glad my son is at CHS instead of FM because of FM's current coach. PD, I know you said you could not pick him out of a line up but I think your eating cheseburgers with KD on that line Wink.

Regarding DG's specific notes...obviously the young lady was at the game and IMO experienced the same I saw from FM last year towards the end of the season. Someone Choked again...not the kids decision to steal 3 times and get thrown out or squeeze in game 3 or not develop their pitchers.

IMO...the DH (politics??) and leaving a pitcher in toooooo long (always a FM problem)done them in AGAIN. DG's comments about the "closer" were embarassing as well ...only 7-8 innings all year?? Why? cause you will never need him?

So I close this discussion by saying that FM overacheived again BUT they play to win one game at a time WITH NO VISION for the future. Maybe thats why the DH played, closer pitched 7-8 innings all year, pitchers stay in too long etc. etc. etc.

If no change is made at FM (29wins? 8 loses) they will be at home the same time next year...I just hope our team is still playing!

Good Luck to all the seniors moving on and God Bless this Baseball Site!
V Vanlandingham100+ posts
I am obviously not as astute as the Burlington Northern, but correct me if I am wrong.

2004 Flower Mound beats Keller to advance to Austin.

2005 Flower Mound wins district and loses to SLC

2006 Flower Mound advances to the 3rd Round.

How many resumes share that 3 year story?

I am so confused by all this.

I guess Tex Schram should have fired Tom Landry for taking 11 years to win a Super Bowl.
Last edited by Vanlandingham
TrainTrain100+ posts
Van....I take back my comments from the other post about you (just kidding)

I agree the resume looks good for dating but he cannot get to PROM. He has to take a train versus a limo.....get the picture now??

Again, my point is great record but not the BIG DANCE. The door closes and the palms sweat in the most important games as I see it and he chokes.

I was never a TL fan. He had the players and you know it.
V Vanlandingham100+ posts
OK! I guess. I have only lived here 4 years so I do not know all the history. Train, you better not Big League me the next time we meet. That was so disheartening. I had 3 guys ask me this weekend for your identity and I kept the secret.

Have a good summer with that nogoodworthlessoutofcontrolnoinstructingnostrategynopitchingknowledge coach of yours. cutelaugh

Linty you owe me a call too. I know you're not Big Leaguing me.
texlobo60texlobo6010+ posts
I have an extended history with FM as both my sons have played in the program. I have read comments knocking the current coach while praising the former. There are only a few that know the players and the FM program while the majority of you know nothing except from what you hear as second hand rumors or observations made during a game. I have seen the criticism concerning the under achieving 2005 team and now some claim this 2006 team as group of over acheivers. You could not be more wrong or off base. Distractions were abound with last years team and although they had stellar talent they were not the "team" that this curent group of players are.

Some have stated in earlier post that the talent from last year should have won a championship. I say maybe as the talent certainly was there but the 2004 team could not get the job done in the finals nor the 03 in the semi-finals. Was their failure(s) related to "coaching"? Maybe. In all instsances the season ended with a loss and in no case is that pleasant as the players, and coaches are all still trying to gather themselves to come to grips with the loss. They all know the "what ifs". The 2006 team is a group of hard working, athletic and well prepared players. The coaching staff worked harder this year than in ANY previous year to prepare the kids for each game, I was witness to that fact as my son was more than happy to share the details with me.. To label the kids in any manner except as a very good team is disrespectful to the players and untrue. Could they have won, yes, should they have won, maybe.

It is easy not to like someone's style or personality even though you have never had a single conversation with them, I am guilty of that. The posts on this site since the game Saturday have centered on the coaching calls. No one has mentioned the critical errors by the defense late in the game, is that because the coach had no influence? The pitcher Saturday threw the game of his HS career and was one, one pitch away from a win, how is that the coaches fault? How can one criticize a coach who has the faith and believes the kids will be successful but more importannly wants them to be successful. Every coach I have worked, observed, talked to at FM including the first FM coach regrets decisions made in game situations, ie., like leaving a pitcher in too long or pulling one too soon. Bottom line is it did not turn out, FM lost and SL advances. The FM team made it to the "dance" in a yellow bus and sat down a few dancing partners in the process. Every game from the last district moving forward was an elimination game, yet that fact remains unnoticed or overlooked.

Shouldn't the focus be directed to the "real" important things like doing the right thing? Treating people like you want to be treated. I can assure of this, the FM has coach is a good person with a family and certainly would not take pot shots or criticze anyone anonymously via a message board on how they conduct themselves at work or at home. It is unfortunate that individuals take the liberty to attack those who are not there to defend themselves!

As for the DH politics referred to .... please tell me what the definition is and I will tell you if it fits this situation.

Good luck to all your kids and loved ones. I wish all nothing but health and happiness and hopefully you are able to enrich and not tear down the lives of those you touch.
Last edited by texlobo60
HA honest and unbiased100+ posts
texaslobo,
My son showed me a note this morning he received from a fellow player on the FM Team.
It made me sit back and reflect about what the high school game should be about. I am in total agreement that all of these YAHOOS who slam coaches and programs on message boards like this or in any forum are top of the line losers. I have to admit that I even at times have lost track of what the real important issues are, maybe on this board and maybe elsewhere.

One only has to go to a game at FM, see the fans, the young kids, the drumline, the students, and the players, to realize how lucky we are as parents and our sons are as atheletes to be a part of the experience. There is no better place to watch a high school game or for a player to play on a high school team than FM.

My son is fortunate to have been a part of the program the past 3 years. Next years Senior Night will come all too soon.
B ballboy10+ posts
TexLobo, you are the first person I've heard take up for SS. That's refreshing since I had not previously met one FM parent who thought he should keep his job. As for this web thread, I think it's healthy to Monday morning quarterback. For instance, in game 3, with a RHP throwing, FM pinch hit in the 7th with a good left hander. Good decision. Next two hitters, he opted to leave in his 8 & 9 hole guys. Two quick outs. All the while he had some kids (including at least one good lefty) on the pine. Bad decision. Gotta play the odds.
S Shuttle10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by texlobo60:
I have an extended history with FM as both my sons have played in the program. I have read comments knocking the current coach while praising the former. There are only a few that know the players and the FM program while the majority of you know nothing except from what you hear as second hand rumors or observations made during a game. I have seen the criticism concerning the under achieving 2005 team and now some claim this 2006 team as group of over acheivers. You could not be more wrong or off base. Distractions were abound with last years team and although they had stellar talent they were not the "team" that this curent group of players are.

Some have stated in earlier post that the talent from last year should have won a championship. I say maybe as the talent certainly was there but the 2004 team could not get the job done in the finals nor the 03 in the semi-finals. Was their failure(s) related to "coaching"? Maybe. In all instsances the season ended with a loss and in no case is that pleasant as the players, and coaches are all still trying to gather themselves to come to grips with the loss. They all know the "what ifs". The 2006 team is a group of hard working, athletic and well prepared players. The coaching staff worked harder this year than in ANY previous year to prepare the kids for each game, I was witness to that fact as my son was more than happy to share the details with me.. To lable the kids in any manner except as a very good team is disrespectful to the players and untrue. Could they have won, yes, should they have won, maybe.

It is easy not to like someones style or personality even though you have never had a single conversation with them, I am guilty of that. The posts on this site since the game Saturday have centered on the coaching calls. No one has mentioned the critical errors by the defense late in the game, is that because the coach had no influence? The pitcher Saturday threw the game of his HS career and was one, one pitch away from a win, how is that the coaches fault? How can one criticize a coach who has the faith and beleives the kids will be successful but more importannly wants them to be successful. Every coach I have worked, observed, talked to at FM including the first FM coach regrets decisions made in game situations, ie., like leaving a pitcher in too long or pulling one too soon. Bottom line is it did not turn out, FM lost and SL advances. The FM team made it to the "dance" in a yellow bus and sat down a few dancing partners in the process. Every game from the last district game was an elimination game, yet that fact remains unnoticed or overlooked.

Shouldn't the focus be directed to the "real" important things like doing the right thing? Treating people like you want to be treated. I can assure of this, the FM has coach is a good person with a family and certainly would not take pot shots or criticze anyone anonymously via a message board on how they conduct themselves at work or at home. It is unfortunate that individuals take the liberty to attack those who are not there to defend themselves!

As for the DH politics referred to .... please tell me what the definition is and I will tell you if it fits this situation.

Good luck to all your kids and loved ones. I wish all nothing but health and happiness and hopefully you are able to enrich and not tear down the lives of those you touch.


Hey Lobo...You need to go back to New Mexico and crawl back into your cave!!! toilet
A ACowboy10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Panther Dad:
DBall18 --- all playoff teams have talent. SLC seems to find a way to peak at this time of the year. In my opinion, the athletic mentality in South Lake prepares the kids to make the big play, do all for team when it really counts, believe in yourself, etc. It's more than coaches pushing the right buttons. Talent gets you there -- it begins at the freshman and JV levels -- buying in to the mentality, etc. This allows the varsity teams to reload, rather than rebuild. The fact that South Lake has a single HS doesn't hurt. Cool

H&U, I agree....with the obvious understanding that it's easy to coach in hindsight.

So are you saying that Coach Stinson should have flipped for a one-game series??? <--- I'M JOKING!!! Smile


In regards to the PD's comment "It's more than coaches pushing the right buttons", I respectfully disagree. Yes, the coaches can and do impact a player's preparation for the game. However, my observations of multiple Metroplex teams over a number of years is that the most critical ingredient is the "make-up" of the leadership players, usually veteran seniors. The commonality I've seen from teams that go deep in the play-offs and seem to over-achieve is the amount of heart these kids have. Out of the same programs/coaches, different years can produce vastly different results. The coaches and the players' talent are important, but the over/under-achievement results in the play-offs are based on the amount of heart in the veteran players.
DC Diablo con Huevos500+ posts
With that said.....here are my opinions.

Did SS not learn anything from last year about starting the 7th inning with a new pitcher in both games instead of waiting til it was too late one year later? Also, I was told that in games 2 and 3 a DH was used that was yet another mistake from last year.... when will this guy learn??

The FM team was a good team as I saw but their head coach is a freshman coach at best ...strike that...a triple A coach at best. Their players deserve more than they received again. H&U...I feel for you and your team but know that in summer ball those mistakes will not be made!! Get ready for a great summer.

OKAY, THAT WAS POST FROM TRAIN...

ONE WORD FOR YOU TRAIN: LOSER.

You think that your job is to critique what HS coaches are doing on the field... where is your degree from and why aren't you coaching? If you are a player, your attitude won't allow to play very long i fyou even make it to college, and if you are a parent, we can only pray that you do not have kids - and if you do and they instill your arrogance they might last to Christmas of their freshman year in college.

And how is triple A coaching a lower level that freshamn coaching?

And what background do you have that supports your knowledge - or what SWAC refers to as your 2nd guessing - ....

Can't wait to hear your history in the game... please share.... surly not some bum that played back in HS and everything was always everyone elses fault....

Since the coach at FM is an educator, how is he helping his students learn in the classroom? Do you know much about that? Do you even care? Probably not... you sound like you are the perfect poster cild for our society these days - thanks for volunteering.

Loser.
TrainTrain100+ posts
Diablo con Huevos....read prior posts and you will answer your own questions and use spell check (coach). That means do some research which requires your brain to be used. Did you graduate from HS?

Don't know or care about his involvement in the classroom unless he was teaching at CHS. Maybe he will be next year. Big Grin

Coach did you lose a recent game due to poor decisions which is why your so hostile? I knew you had something in common with SS. party party party
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