@PABaseball posted:

100% spot on. It's actually bizarre how little development there can be in programs. Even in the programs where there is some actual coaching being done it appears it's only for the top 20-25 guys.

For many you get September of your freshman year as an audition. After that you either have eyes on you or you are taking up space.

There is a limited time amount with the players and no way that you can INVEST with only 3 coaches into more than about 25-30 guys.  When your job depends on winning games, you have to invest in a certain number of players and 25-30 is a lot of players for 3 coaches to invest in.  There is no way they can invest in 45 players.  So there has to be some development strength wise and learning and waiting.  I don't think players and their parents are willing to wait their turns.  They want to come in and play immediately and that can't happen for everyone.

I again blame the parents for not doing the research.  In today's world you should know who is going juco and portal transfers versus who is going freshmen coming in.  I don't think it has changed other than the fact that some have tapped the portal but those guys were always tapping the juco transfers strong.  If you are not doing that research and asking current players and checking stats then you have no room to complain.  Buyer beware is an important part of the process.  That is why many on here preach do your homework.

@anotherparent posted:

It's funny how similar this is to complaints about HS baseball where some coaches develop players but some do not.  And in those high school cases, the answer always is, find outside instructors and work year-round with them, get better by yourself and then be so good they have to put you on the field.   PABaseball has just said that is what his son does.  Is that the expected model in college, too?

This is not a new concept.  Over the years, I know of several players who have sought out instruction on their own. Sometimes on advice of their agent.

Lots of guys go to the FL BB Ranch, during holidays.  Pro guys do the same thing.

It's not forbidden that I am aware of, but if there is an injury, it might not be covered. 

When son was at Clemson one of the hitters went to have his swing fixed at a nearby facility.  Changed his life. Got drafted that year in first round. It was kind of like a secret, but we all knew.

@PitchingFan posted:

There is a limited time amount with the players and no way that you can INVEST with only 3 coaches into more than about 25-30 guys.  When your job depends on winning games, you have to invest in a certain number of players and 25-30 is a lot of players for 3 coaches to invest in.  There is no way they can invest in 45 players.  So there has to be some development strength wise and learning and waiting.  I don't think players and their parents are willing to wait their turns.  They want to come in and play immediately and that can't happen for everyone.

I again blame the parents for not doing the research.  In today's world you should know who is going juco and portal transfers versus who is going freshmen coming in.  I don't think it has changed other than the fact that some have tapped the portal but those guys were always tapping the juco transfers strong.  If you are not doing that research and asking current players and checking stats then you have no room to complain.  Buyer beware is an important part of the process.  That is why many on here preach do your homework.

I don't buy that there's not enough time/resources. They're at the field or doing team related activities for 4-6 hours a day. Most coaching staffs have 4 coaches and a baseball ops guy.

45 guys is too many for the coaches, I get it. The question is why are there 45 guys for a game that requires a max 10 at any time.

I could get past that if waiting and developing was an option but for most it isn't even an option. You are cut or told they don't see you in the plans and to transfer. In the years I've been in the loop with our program - all but one non travelers in our program are no longer with the team. All underclassmen who hit below .220 were gone. 3 draftees out of HS, gone. Alarmingly, most are excelling at other programs. I can only speak to what I know. I have seen it, and I have talked to many that just said they never felt like they had a chance to improve, never told specifically what needed to be fixed, what needed changing, and were mostly ignored the second they started struggling.

You are right the research is critical. I would've been lost, like many others, had I not found this board. Most don't find this board and end up with their travel program director in their ear when their priority is which school looks better on their social media.

Maybe your sons program does it right. It would appear that way from the outside looking in. That is probably a massive part of the reason they are where they are right now. If I had to guess I would say there are less programs right now that resemble the structure yours does than do. I understand you've been around college baseball for some time, but I believe Covid has drastically changed the way programs function now.

@PABaseball posted:

I don't buy that there's not enough time/resources. They're at the field or doing team related activities for 4-6 hours a day. Most coaching staffs have 4 coaches and a baseball ops guy.

45 guys is too many for the coaches, I get it. The question is why are there 45 guys for a game that requires a max 10 at any time.

I could get past that if waiting and developing was an option but for most it isn't even an option. You are cut or told they don't see you in the plans and to transfer. In the years I've been in the loop with our program - all but one non travelers in our program are no longer with the team. All underclassmen who hit below .220 were gone. 3 draftees out of HS, gone. Alarmingly, most are excelling at other programs. I can only speak to what I know. I have seen it, and I have talked to many that just said they never felt like they had a chance to improve, never told specifically what needed to be fixed, what needed changing, and were mostly ignored the second they started struggling.

You are right the research is critical. I would've been lost, like many others, had I not found this board. Most don't find this board and end up with their travel program director in their ear when their priority is which school looks better on their social media.

Maybe your sons program does it right. It would appear that way from the outside looking in. That is probably a massive part of the reason they are where they are right now. If I had to guess I would say there are less programs right now that resemble the structure yours does than do. I understand you've been around college baseball for some time, but I believe Covid has drastically changed the way programs function now.

I agree 100% with all of the above. It’s not that big D1 programs don’t have the time, the staff, and the resources. It’s how they choose to allocate those things. The description of what happens when a player doesn’t perform is spot on. This has been going on for years at lots of programs but Covid has made it much worse.

Players who are really committed to improving will get in the work. My 2015's teammates (typically 3-4 players) would go to the batting cages at 10PM to do tee work and flips. They would also do some hand fielding drills.  There are plenty of drills/exercises that can be done on their own to improve.  Coaches will see eventually see your hard work by the improved play.

@PABaseball posted:

I don't buy that there's not enough time/resources. They're at the field or doing team related activities for 4-6 hours a day. Most coaching staffs have 4 coaches and a baseball ops guy.

45 guys is too many for the coaches, I get it. The question is why are there 45 guys for a game that requires a max 10 at any time.

I could get past that if waiting and developing was an option but for most it isn't even an option. You are cut or told they don't see you in the plans and to transfer. In the years I've been in the loop with our program - all but one non travelers in our program are no longer with the team. All underclassmen who hit below .220 were gone. 3 draftees out of HS, gone. Alarmingly, most are excelling at other programs. I can only speak to what I know. I have seen it, and I have talked to many that just said they never felt like they had a chance to improve, never told specifically what needed to be fixed, what needed changing, and were mostly ignored the second they started struggling.

You are right the research is critical. I would've been lost, like many others, had I not found this board. Most don't find this board and end up with their travel program director in their ear when their priority is which school looks better on their social media.

Maybe your sons program does it right. It would appear that way from the outside looking in. That is probably a massive part of the reason they are where they are right now. If I had to guess I would say there are less programs right now that resemble the structure yours does than do. I understand you've been around college baseball for some time, but I believe Covid has drastically changed the way programs function now.

worth repeating

I've re-read through this thread, and I really think (ALL)  the advice is invaluable for the state of college baseball at this point in time.   This thread is a must read for the prospect, recruit, committed college player, freshman college player.   

Folks have to understand what kind of program you are dealing with....is it transactional (transfer portal is lighting up like a Christmas tree) or is it more traditional especially at the D1 mid-major level.   We know the top level D1s P5 are transactional because they have to be to compete.   It used to be that college players transferred as a last resort defensive move as they were willing to lose a year of eligibility.  Now, college players have the ability to go on offense and transfer for many reasons.  Research is needed now more than ever to get the full story about a program.

As always, JMO.

Good summation by @fenwaysouth

Thanks to all for their input and advice!  My son is determined to keep working hard and being a good teammate.  He is going to bring some questions with him for his exit meetings to get more pointed feedback from the coaches to see how he really fits into their plan for the future.  The exit meetings will probably not happen until after conference tournament in late May, so we will see how that goes.  He wants to stay and keep battling for opportunities as long as the coaches want him there and don't cut his scholarship money.

I definitely think the words of advice throughout this thread will be beneficial for those at all phases in their recruiting process all the way to the freshmen players on campus.

Time Flys:

keep us informed on his Summer League. The level of competition and his learning program.

Bob

All good things must come to an end - Update:

So we visited with our son this past weekend before their last home series.  As we sat at breakfast I could tell something was bothering him so I finally asked him "what was he thinking about?"  He got a bit emotional and told us he had put a lot of thought into things and that he just doesn't love the game anymore and doesn't feel he can continue playing.  He wanted to talk to the head coach on Monday morning and let him know but we encouraged him to go through his exit meetings and that could help clear things up for him moving forward (keep in mind my initial post on this thread about the meetings he had had with the coaches).

He had his exit meeting yesterday around lunch and was basically told "we love you in the program but don't see a lot of opportunity for you moving forward as we have several JUCO and a few fifth year transfers moving in".  That helped solidify his decision.

I was hoping he might consider transferring to a JUCO or a local D2 to continue playing but at this point he is pretty discouraged and has lost the motivation to continue putting in the work.  Maybe it changes in a few weeks, but he is also interested in pursuing a business degree at a large university where he can enjoy the student life.

All that being said, and hindsight is always 20/20, I think the JUCO route for most high schoolers is definitely a great option in todays market (unless you are a true stud).  I think if he had went to a JUCO and was able to garner play time and more opportunities he may still want to continue playing.  But, that isnt where we are and thats OK. 

Thanks all for the valuable information and if anything changes I will post an update!

@TimeFlies posted:

All good things must come to an end - Update:

So we visited with our son this past weekend before their last home series.  As we sat at breakfast I could tell something was bothering him so I finally asked him "what was he thinking about?"  He got a bit emotional and told us he had put a lot of thought into things and that he just doesn't love the game anymore and doesn't feel he can continue playing.  He wanted to talk to the head coach on Monday morning and let him know but we encouraged him to go through his exit meetings and that could help clear things up for him moving forward (keep in mind my initial post on this thread about the meetings he had had with the coaches).

He had his exit meeting yesterday around lunch and was basically told "we love you in the program but don't see a lot of opportunity for you moving forward as we have several JUCO and a few fifth year transfers moving in".  That helped solidify his decision.

I was hoping he might consider transferring to a JUCO or a local D2 to continue playing but at this point he is pretty discouraged and has lost the motivation to continue putting in the work.  Maybe it changes in a few weeks, but he is also interested in pursuing a business degree at a large university where he can enjoy the student life.

All that being said, and hindsight is always 20/20, I think the JUCO route for most high schoolers is definitely a great option in todays market (unless you are a true stud).  I think if he had went to a JUCO and was able to garner play time and more opportunities he may still want to continue playing.  But, that isnt where we are and thats OK.

Thanks all for the valuable information and if anything changes I will post an update!

I’m very sorry for the experience that your son (and you) had. Unfortunately it’s all too common. Your realization in hindsight that the JuCo route would have been better is also all too common. It’s harder than ever for a HS player to stick at a competitive D1 baseball program. Three major factors that have occurred in the past two years have drastically changed the recruiting landscape for college baseball: 1) NCAA granting extra years of eligibility due to Covid19; 2) the transfer portal ; and 3) the reduction of the MLB draft from 40 to 20 rounds. The combined effect of those 3 things makes it almost impossible for a HS player to stick at a competitive D1 program unless he has draft talent. Best of luck to your son. No doubt that these are difficult times for him and you. Hope it all works out for the best.

I'm sorry to hear this.  We know tons of kids who have had these conversations this year.  My own son called me saying he didn't love it anymore recently as well.  I did talk him out of it because I truly think it is his current experience and not baseball that he is struggling with.  I also think he will regret it if he doesn't see this through, but told him if he really was done, we would understand.  I don't think he is, but the hits do keep coming for these kids post 2020.  It really stinks.  I'm so sorry.

Adbono;

what suggestions would you have for 16 year old with a desire to improve and play in a "strong" college program?

#1 find a local track coach

#2 obtain a eye exam

#3 play in a '18' and under League. Take notes and observe. Teach yourself.

Bob

@Consultant posted:

Adbono;

what suggestions would you have for 16 year old with a desire to improve and play in a "strong" college program?

#1 find a local track coach

#2 obtain a eye exam

#3 play in a '18' and under League. Take notes and observe. Teach yourself.

Bob

Bob, my advice would depend on whether we are talking about a pitcher or a position player. Your points above would apply more to a position player. And they are valid points but I would take issue with #3. In most areas of the country college coaches aren’t scouting 18u teams b/c most of those players are already in college or already committed. The place to be seen by college guys is 17u. So I would advise playing on the best 17u option that was available. In addition I would advise to hook up with the best local instructor (either pitching or hitting) that you can find and stay true to the development process. Don’t chase short term gains. In addition I would add in a good nutrition program and a focus on good study habits. I would also advise to go see college games at all levels - JuCo, D3, D2, D1 & NAIA. Then I would burn all his video games and throw his iphone in the Pacific Ocean. All that ought to get it done !

I don’t post here a lot any longer. But, this thread caught my attention. I posted something years ago that would apply here. I, like most parents, probably thought a little higher of my son than his actual talent. I did take the time to seek out professional opinions on my son’s abilities. I was told by multiple people, yes he is definitely D1 talent. Then, that was confirmed by MLB interest up until he was injured senior year in HS. He loved and signed with his “dream school”, LSU. He missed his freshman season due to TJ surgery. It was an uphill battle from there. He contributed and had some amazing experiences. He pitched in game 1 of CWS finals against eventual champion UF. He closed in championship game in SEC championship against Arkansas. He started game 1 of regional his last season in Oregon State. BUT, he told me that if you aren’t a starter, you are basically own your own. There is / was little development. This blew my mind. I started asking parents in other high profile programs. Same held true there. I’m not saying there is NO development at ALL programs. What I am warning future parents is, unless you are THE guy, you are most likely gonna have to figure it out yourself. My son never was the guy at LSU. Didn’t really ever get the opportunity. I’m fully convinced his injury prior to freshman season was a big part of that issue. They may have had him “penciled in” as a starter before he was hurt. They talked to him like that was the case. But after he was injured, they had no choice but to move on. I don’t blame them for that. He did prove by his redshirt sophomore season that he could be “the guy”, but he had become too valuable out of the pen. Mainieri said publicly that he would love to start him but he felt he could affect the series out of BP on multiple days instead of starting one game. At his exit interview after his redshirt sophomore season, he asked would he have a chance to compete for a starting job. He was basically told it would be best to go to pro ball. He has been a starter in the Rockies organization since day one. So the talent was undoubtedly there. The timing wasn’t and there wasn’t room for development is the ONLY thing I can assume. In general, there is WAY LESS development at the P5 D1 level than 99% of people realize or know. That is just the reality of championship level collegiate baseball.

@TimeFlies : It does indeed.

Best of luck to you and your son. These are always difficult decisions. Baseball ends for everyone at some point and regardless of the level I think it is a painful process. The good news is that your son was very mature and reflective in his decision and made the "mature" one and it will make him a stronger and better person as a result. p

I am not a big fan of players (at their parents urging) jumping around from program to program as the college experience should go beyond just playing baseball IMO. At least out here on the West Coast, JuCo competitiveness is just as intense as many D1's so IMO it is not a panacea.

Again best of luck to your son.

Post by @younggun should be required reading by all HS baseball players that aspire to play college baseball. Every word is 100% on point. He has lived it as a parent and I can validate it as being my same experience as a player. 100% the gospel truth.

@younggun posted:

I don’t post here a lot any longer. But, this thread caught my attention. I posted something years ago that would apply here. I, like most parents, probably thought a little higher of my son than his actual talent. I did take the time to seek out professional opinions on my son’s abilities. I was told by multiple people, yes he is definitely D1 talent. Then, that was confirmed by MLB interest up until he was injured senior year in HS. He loved and signed with his “dream school”, LSU. He missed his freshman season due to TJ surgery. It was an uphill battle from there. He contributed and had some amazing experiences. He pitched in game 1 of CWS finals against eventual champion UF. He closed in championship game in SEC championship against Arkansas. He started game 1 of regional his last season in Oregon State. BUT, he told me that if you aren’t a starter, you are basically own your own. There is / was little development. This blew my mind. I started asking parents in other high profile programs. Same held true there. I’m not saying there is NO development at ALL programs. What I am warning future parents is, unless you are THE guy, you are most likely gonna have to figure it out yourself. My son never was the guy at LSU. Didn’t really ever get the opportunity. I’m fully convinced his injury prior to freshman season was a big part of that issue. They may have had him “penciled in” as a starter before he was hurt. They talked to him like that was the case. But after he was injured, they had no choice but to move on. I don’t blame them for that. He did prove by his redshirt sophomore season that he could be “the guy”, but he had become too valuable out of the pen. Mainieri said publicly that he would love to start him but he felt he could affect the series out of BP on multiple days instead of starting one game. At his exit interview after his redshirt sophomore season, he asked would he have a chance to compete for a starting job. He was basically told it would be best to go to pro ball. He has been a starter in the Rockies organization since day one. So the talent was undoubtedly there. The timing wasn’t and there wasn’t room for development is the ONLY thing I can assume. In general, there is WAY LESS development at the P5 D1 level than 99% of people realize or know. That is just the reality of championship level collegiate baseball.

100% true. At the beginning of conference play, only starters were even getting bullpens. I think they changed that at son’s school but probably only by necessity.   Lots of kids are told to change things but there isn’t a lot of follow through.

I will again reiterate that is not the case everywhere.  I'm sure there are some at the bottom of our pitching list that would say they did not get help.  We have 12 guys who have pitched at least 13 innings this spring at UT.  With three of those being freshmen and two are weekend starters.  Team era of 2.36 and it just went up over the past 2 weekends.  Son has always gotten help with changing pitches and grips to get more out of his pitches.  I think that is the same for at least all 12 guys.  I know some of you will say what about the others.  I would say many of them have gotten help but with 1 pitching coach there is only so much time that can be devoted each year to getting guys where they need to be.  Much of son's work after consultation with PC was on his own with tweeking during sessions.  Our PC watches almost every bullpen session and they also video every session.  Much of it depends on the player's desire to get where he wants to be.  Not all cases but many that I know of they are just not ready for the jump from HS to college.  For some reason, parents don't realize how big JUCO can be in development.  It is not needed for all but is good for most.

@PitchingFan posted:

I will again reiterate that is not the case everywhere.  I'm sure there are some at the bottom of our pitching list that would say they did not get help.  We have 12 guys who have pitched at least 13 innings this spring at UT.  With three of those being freshmen and two are weekend starters.  Team era of 2.36 and it just went up over the past 2 weekends.  Son has always gotten help with changing pitches and grips to get more out of his pitches.  I think that is the same for at least all 12 guys.  I know some of you will say what about the others.  I would say many of them have gotten help but with 1 pitching coach there is only so much time that can be devoted each year to getting guys where they need to be.  Much of son's work after consultation with PC was on his own with tweeking during sessions.  Our PC watches almost every bullpen session and they also video every session.  Much of it depends on the player's desire to get where he wants to be.  Not all cases but many that I know of they are just not ready for the jump from HS to college.  For some reason, parents don't realize how big JUCO can be in development.  It is not needed for all but is good for most.

I will again reiterate that what you are describing at the University of Tennessee is the exception and not the rule. The PC at UT is one of the nation’s best and it appears that he cares about all the players under his watch - which is also the exception and not the rule.

If a team carries 20-22 pitchers only so many can get bullpens or development.  There is only so much time available for bullpens and not enough coaches (in D3 at least).   Many pitchers need to figure it out themselves. It’s unfortunate but also in many ways understandable if you think about it logically.  However for the student athlete it’s an mainly an emotional response which I understand too.  The whole process is a mental grind on top of the skill needed to succeed.

@TimeFlies posted:

All good things must come to an end - Update:

So we visited with our son this past weekend before their last home series.  As we sat at breakfast I could tell something was bothering him so I finally asked him "what was he thinking about?"  He got a bit emotional and told us he had put a lot of thought into things and that he just doesn't love the game anymore and doesn't feel he can continue playing.  He wanted to talk to the head coach on Monday morning and let him know but we encouraged him to go through his exit meetings and that could help clear things up for him moving forward (keep in mind my initial post on this thread about the meetings he had had with the coaches).

He had his exit meeting yesterday around lunch and was basically told "we love you in the program but don't see a lot of opportunity for you moving forward as we have several JUCO and a few fifth year transfers moving in".  That helped solidify his decision.

I was hoping he might consider transferring to a JUCO or a local D2 to continue playing but at this point he is pretty discouraged and has lost the motivation to continue putting in the work.  Maybe it changes in a few weeks, but he is also interested in pursuing a business degree at a large university where he can enjoy the student life.

All that being said, and hindsight is always 20/20, I think the JUCO route for most high schoolers is definitely a great option in todays market (unless you are a true stud).  I think if he had went to a JUCO and was able to garner play time and more opportunities he may still want to continue playing.  But, that isnt where we are and thats OK.

Thanks all for the valuable information and if anything changes I will post an update!

@Timeflies

I was just listening to the following twitter space with Casey Dill, IMHO it is worth the listen.

https://twitter.com/CaseyDill2.../1526366673330053122

My son’s view was there were 6-8 locked in studs, 6-8 who were unlikely to contribute and everyone else was fighting for playing time. He saw some very talented teammates not stay physically and mentally ready for their opportunity. For those approximately 20 players it was more about mental toughness than talent. Everyone had the potential talent.

@adbono posted:

I will again reiterate that what you are describing at the University of Tennessee is the exception and not the rule. The PC at UT is one of the nation’s best and it appears that he cares about all the players under his watch - which is also the exception and not the rule.

I agree.  But I just want to make sure people understand that there are exceptions to the rule.  Some coaches really care about their players and their futures.  Our head coach said last week in an interview that it is never acceptable for a coach to overthrow a pitcher to win a ball game.   He also started our flamethrower so scouts could see him start to help his draft stock    

@PitchingFan posted:

I agree.  But I just want to make sure people understand that there are exceptions to the rule.  Some coaches really care about their players and their futures.  Our head coach said last week in an interview that it is never acceptable for a coach to overthrow a pitcher to win a ball game.   He also started our flamethrower so scouts could see him start to help his draft stock    

Fair enough. But there are not near enough exceptions. I believe that people’s expectations are that they will get what in reality is the exception. Then when they get the rule it’s a tremendous disappointment.

I agree but the expectation should be the exception but it is not.  You and I cannot say it enough on here do your due diligence. Investigate, look at stats, talk to current players and parents.   My son had a lot of things fall into place for him to get the innings he has    He does not have the crazy velo, but he does have the ability to throw five pitches with un unreal location.     I don’t know that that will ever get him to the next level, MLB, but it has been very good for him in the SEC.    We did our research and knew that Frank Anderson has a great history with LHPs and does an incredible job of getting guys ready for MLB.  Plus when son was recruited there was really only two LHPs at UT.  

There was very heralded (now retired) head coach at a usually ranked program in Southern Texas. He had a reputation for having his stud pitchers go in the first round. He also rode these future #1’s like a pack mule to the CWS. They all had arm surgery early in their minor league starts.

@PitchingFan posted:

I agree but the expectation should be the exception but it is not.  You and I cannot say it enough on here do your due diligence. Investigate, look at stats, talk to current players and parents.   My son had a lot of things fall into place for him to get the innings he has    He does not have the crazy velo, but he does have the ability to throw five pitches with un unreal location.     I don’t know that that will ever get him to the next level, MLB, but it has been very good for him in the SEC.    We did our research and knew that Frank Anderson has a great history with LHPs and does an incredible job of getting guys ready for MLB.  Plus when son was recruited there was really only two LHPs at UT.  

You and I tend to say the same things but in different ways.

@adbono posted:

To a lesser degree, but you are correct. D3 UT-Dallas is right in my backyard. I see a few games every year. Historically they have never had many transfers on their roster. The past two years they have had 6 or so - and they have been a noticeably better team.  Some Grad, some JuCo, some bounce downs.

I see what you are talking about

Texas-Dallas incoming transfers (2022):  Overall -> 4 yr ->  JUCO

Previous Season (2021)

@TimeFlies posted:

All good things must come to an end - Update:

So we visited with our son this past weekend before their last home series.  As we sat at breakfast I could tell something was bothering him so I finally asked him "what was he thinking about?"  He got a bit emotional and told us he had put a lot of thought into things and that he just doesn't love the game anymore and doesn't feel he can continue playing.  He wanted to talk to the head coach on Monday morning and let him know but we encouraged him to go through his exit meetings and that could help clear things up for him moving forward (keep in mind my initial post on this thread about the meetings he had had with the coaches).

He had his exit meeting yesterday around lunch and was basically told "we love you in the program but don't see a lot of opportunity for you moving forward as we have several JUCO and a few fifth year transfers moving in".  That helped solidify his decision.

I was hoping he might consider transferring to a JUCO or a local D2 to continue playing but at this point he is pretty discouraged and has lost the motivation to continue putting in the work.  Maybe it changes in a few weeks, but he is also interested in pursuing a business degree at a large university where he can enjoy the student life.

All that being said, and hindsight is always 20/20, I think the JUCO route for most high schoolers is definitely a great option in todays market (unless you are a true stud).  I think if he had went to a JUCO and was able to garner play time and more opportunities he may still want to continue playing.  But, that isnt where we are and thats OK.

Thanks all for the valuable information and if anything changes I will post an update!

Best of luck to your son.  Give him a couple weeks.
Ask him to pretend he is 40 years old with family..job..etc and you are going over to his house visiting the grandkids.

and then you ask him :

"would you make the same decision to quit baseball if you could have a do over ?"

it is easy to say for most of us what that answer would be...
they must figure it out for themselves.
but have the end in mind.
leaving anything on the table is difficult and most do not realize it until later on.

@PitchingFan posted:

I will again reiterate that is not the case everywhere.  I'm sure there are some at the bottom of our pitching list that would say they did not get help.  We have 12 guys who have pitched at least 13 innings this spring at UT.  With three of those being freshmen and two are weekend starters.  Team era of 2.36 and it just went up over the past 2 weekends.  Son has always gotten help with changing pitches and grips to get more out of his pitches.  I think that is the same for at least all 12 guys.  I know some of you will say what about the others.  I would say many of them have gotten help but with 1 pitching coach there is only so much time that can be devoted each year to getting guys where they need to be.

This is kind of the point. 12 guys getting innings and help from the PC. Only problem is there are what, 20-23 pitchers on the roster? Would you say the other end of the pitching staff is being put in a good position to excel?

You guys are great and I'm not around the program enough like you are to say for sure but my guess would be that there are plenty of guys in that program who are not having nearly the same experience as your son.

Have you read the history of Mike Musana? A PA native and a student of the game with a photographic memory.

Bob

pre or post roids and HGH?

@PABaseball posted:

This is kind of the point. 12 guys getting innings and help from the PC. Only problem is there are what, 20-23 pitchers on the roster? Would you say the other end of the pitching staff is being put in a good position to excel?

You guys are great and I'm not around the program enough like you are to say for sure but my guess would be that there are plenty of guys in that program who are not having nearly the same experience as your son.

I would agree that there are 8 guys who are not having the experience my son is but I would also say that when you play for a top 10 team you have to produce when given the opportunity.  That is the problem with being on a top team.  Everyone wants to be on the team but the pressure to compete every day for a spot is incredible.  We have 5 guys batting over .300 who can't get at bats and one with 9 home runs and another with 10.  I told my son when he kept saying he wanted to go SEC.  You will have to beat out 10 guys wearing the same uniform to get on the field to beat the guys wearing the opposite uniform.  And that has held true.  For us if you can't throw strikes you don't pitch.  Walks will keep you out of the lineup in a heartbeat.  But when you throw strikes you better not give up runs because the team era was sub .200 for most of the season.  The guys not getting innings could probably pitch at most schools and would be the studs at mid majors.  Part of the playing with the best against the best.  I'm sure several will move on after this year and land somewhere nice.  Son's roomate and best friend freshman year was one of those guys and landed about where he should and is playing CF and pitching.  Loves life.

I did ask son last night and all the guys get help from PC.  Some put in the extra time and some don't.  Son stayed after for 3-4 hours every day his freshman year from day one through Covid.  He did all he could so during the shutdown and was ready to walk back in the next fall and compete.  He threw bullpens twice a week, found guys to throw live to, and had a small group that hit 2-3 times a week.  Some do more than others and get more attention which I understand.  No different than in life as an adult.  Some people get more attention from the boss than others.  Some get promoted and some get left behind.  Some love their job and some move on to another.  May not be fair but it is life.

I will also say that you guys talk about the college life other than baseball but that is the case for everyone.  Some see the future, son wants to play MLB and then coach, and he does not do the normal student life stuff but concentrates on baseball.  He does have a girlfriend but not the parties and extra stuff.  He is focused on his goals and works every day to get there.  There are many on his team just like him.

@PitchingFan posted:

I would agree that there are 8 guys who are not having the experience my son is but I would also say that when you play for a top 10 team you have to produce when given the opportunity.  That is the problem with being on a top team.  Everyone wants to be on the team but the pressure to compete every day for a spot is incredible.  We have 5 guys batting over .300 who can't get at bats and one with 9 home runs and another with 10.  I told my son when he kept saying he wanted to go SEC.  You will have to beat out 10 guys wearing the same uniform to get on the field to beat the guys wearing the opposite uniform.  And that has held true.  For us if you can't throw strikes you don't pitch.  Walks will keep you out of the lineup in a heartbeat.  But when you throw strikes you better not give up runs because the team era was sub .200 for most of the season.  The guys not getting innings could probably pitch at most schools and would be the studs at mid majors.  Part of the playing with the best against the best.  I'm sure several will move on after this year and land somewhere nice.  Son's roomate and best friend freshman year was one of those guys and landed about where he should and is playing CF and pitching.  Loves life.

I did ask son last night and all the guys get help from PC.  Some put in the extra time and some don't.  Son stayed after for 3-4 hours every day his freshman year from day one through Covid.  He did all he could so during the shutdown and was ready to walk back in the next fall and compete.  He threw bullpens twice a week, found guys to throw live to, and had a small group that hit 2-3 times a week.  Some do more than others and get more attention which I understand.  No different than in life as an adult.  Some people get more attention from the boss than others.  Some get promoted and some get left behind.  Some love their job and some move on to another.  May not be fair but it is life.

I will also say that you guys talk about the college life other than baseball but that is the case for everyone.  Some see the future, son wants to play MLB and then coach, and he does not do the normal student life stuff but concentrates on baseball.  He does have a girlfriend but not the parties and extra stuff.  He is focused on his goals and works every day to get there.  There are many on his team just like him.

There are but so many innings available.

Question, in your son's freshman year, he stayed an extra 15 to 20 hours,  has he stated to you what he gained?

Was it more mental than physical?  Better understanding of situational pitching? etc.

"Sometimes one must take the straight line crooked" ~August Martin Fences

good stuff

Physical and mental.  He worked on getting so much more location of offspeed pitches.  He realized early that fall that a pitch over the middle of the plate he could by with in HS but not in the SEC.  He also worked on hitting as he was a two-way guy back then so he worked on his switch hitting.  All the stuff we talk about changed that to him realizing that to be the first LHP out of the bullpen he had to be better.  he still swings a bat in practice and in the cage but has not swung in a game even though coach still tells him to keep swinging.  He is one of the only switch hitters on the team.

@PitchingFan posted:

Physical and mental.  He worked on getting so much more location of offspeed pitches.  He realized early that fall that a pitch over the middle of the plate he could by with in HS but not in the SEC.  He also worked on hitting as he was a two-way guy back then so he worked on his switch hitting.  All the stuff we talk about changed that to him realizing that to be the first LHP out of the bullpen he had to be better.  he still swings a bat in practice and in the cage but has not swung in a game even though coach still tells him to keep swinging.  He is one of the only switch hitters on the team.

Thanks for sharing.

Quick Update:

Son is home and after a few days he talked to my wife and I about wanting to continue playing baseball and giving it another shot.  He was pretty discouraged after everything that took place, but he is also aware that the changing landscape in college baseball is tough for the young guys.  He told me several of his friends at other D1 programs had 5 at-bats or fewer during the season.

All that to say he has entered the transfer portal, and about 10 minutes after his email came through letting him know he was officially in the portal, the local D2 coach texted him and then called to offer him a spot along with academic and athletic money.  He has played a lot of summer ball at this field so they have seen him many many times.  He is pretty excited about the opportunity as they are a top 25 D2 program and he could live at home if he chooses.  He is also getting a lot of texts and phone calls from JUCO programs and is weighing all his options.

I found it interesting as the coach at the D2 program admitted they have started saving athletic money for this time of the year as they are using the portal more and more to recruit.  I am guessing this is happening more and more as coaches try to remain competitive with other programs that are also recruiting out of the portal? 

My only though about him going the JUCO route at this point would be the possibility of staying there two years and then only having one remaining year of eligibility versus taking the D2 offer and hopefully having a good three year career there while getting his degree.. Thoughts?  I am wondering also if less JUCO kids will get opportunities to move on as the more programs utilize the transfer portal?

@TimeFlies posted:

My only though about him going the JUCO route at this point would be the possibility of staying there two years and then only having one remaining year of eligibility versus taking the D2 offer and hopefully having a good three year career there while getting his degree.. Thoughts?  I am wondering also if less JUCO kids will get opportunities to move on as the more programs utilize the transfer portal?

If your son already has 28+ credits under his belt, I think it would be very unusual for him to spend 2 years at a juco. Traditionally, he would just attend one year at a juco, then back to a 4-year. Nice to hear he has new options.

@TimeFlies posted:

Quick Update:

Son is home and after a few days he talked to my wife and I about wanting to continue playing baseball and giving it another shot.  He was pretty discouraged after everything that took place, but he is also aware that the changing landscape in college baseball is tough for the young guys.  He told me several of his friends at other D1 programs had 5 at-bats or fewer during the season.

All that to say he has entered the transfer portal, and about 10 minutes after his email came through letting him know he was officially in the portal, the local D2 coach texted him and then called to offer him a spot along with academic and athletic money.  He has played a lot of summer ball at this field so they have seen him many many times.  He is pretty excited about the opportunity as they are a top 25 D2 program and he could live at home if he chooses.  He is also getting a lot of texts and phone calls from JUCO programs and is weighing all his options.

I found it interesting as the coach at the D2 program admitted they have started saving athletic money for this time of the year as they are using the portal more and more to recruit.  I am guessing this is happening more and more as coaches try to remain competitive with other programs that are also recruiting out of the portal?

My only though about him going the JUCO route at this point would be the possibility of staying there two years and then only having one remaining year of eligibility versus taking the D2 offer and hopefully having a good three year career there while getting his degree.. Thoughts?  I am wondering also if less JUCO kids will get opportunities to move on as the more programs utilize the transfer portal?

@TimeFlies  Great to hear.

Here is my quick advise.

Have your son look at some of the free dashboards tools on our website, he can quickly evaluate what the heck is going on for all schools (including JUCO)

https://collegebaseballinsights.com/insights/

With respects to choices, 4 yr vs JUCO, just remember JUCOs are also loading up.

If your son's goal is to get back to D1 (maybe MLB), just remember today's roster management strategy JUCO Player with 4 years of eligibility will not be his strategy in 2 years.

IMHO, the COVID impact has reverberated through out the entire system.  If you can land at a very good D2 program, that sends players to VERY GOOD Collegiate Summer League(s).  Reduces the family out of pocket cost, and he is wanted, then it is something to think about.

Good luck.

@TimeFlies

Glad to hear your boy has reconsidered and appears to be staying in the game and he's got some options.

Looking forward to the upcoming post from the parent of the kid he will push out at his next destination.

Freshman Son Confused at D2. 😉

@TimeFlies, take the D2 deal now. Can’t stress this enough!

@adbono posted:

@TimeFlies, take the D2 deal now. Can’t stress this enough!

@adbono  I didn't want to say that, but I agree.  It is close.  Fresh start.

@TimeFlies Does you son have a Collegiate Summer League Team?  If not, see if the coach can add him to one of his connections to get some innings.

@adbono posted:

@TimeFlies, take the D2 deal now. Can’t stress this enough!

He has taken the D2 offer!  The coaches took us out to dinner and brought us back to campus for a tour and then talked athletic scholarship money.  They presented a very nice package and our son is super excited for the opportunity.  He will live at home for the first year (his choice) so he can focus on nutrition, etc and it saves rent!  He has a key to his old summer team facility that is 10 minutes from our house and we were up there last night hitting and working out.  Selfishly, it is nice to have him home and be able to continue doing those things with him.

He has talked to several of his friends that were in different D1 programs around the state and a large percentage of them are in the same boat as him.  Their programs are bringing in a ton of new talent through the portal and they are being told "the opportunities for play time will be limited again next year".  Most of them are looking to transfer to JUCO programs.

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

@adbono  I didn't want to say that, but I agree.  It is close.  Fresh start.

@TimeFlies Does you son have a Collegiate Summer League Team?  If not, see if the coach can add him to one of his connections to get some innings.

@CollegebaseballInsights thanks for all the information you have shared.  A fresh start and being close to home will be nice! 

They are working on getting him on one of the Collegiate Summer Teams that they have connections with, we should know who/where this week.

Thanks!

@TimeFlies posted:

He has taken the D2 offer!  The coaches took us out to dinner and brought us back to campus for a tour and then talked athletic scholarship money.  They presented a very nice package and our son is super excited for the opportunity.  He will live at home for the first year (his choice) so he can focus on nutrition, etc and it saves rent!  He has a key to his old summer team facility that is 10 minutes from our house and we were up there last night hitting and working out.  Selfishly, it is nice to have him home and be able to continue doing those things with him.

He has talked to several of his friends that were in different D1 programs around the state and a large percentage of them are in the same boat as him.  Their programs are bringing in a ton of new talent through the portal and they are being told "the opportunities for play time will be limited again next year".  Most of them are looking to transfer to JUCO programs.

I would call that a huge win for your son and for you! Congratulations!!

@TimeFlies posted:

He has taken the D2 offer!  The coaches took us out to dinner and brought us back to campus for a tour and then talked athletic scholarship money.  They presented a very nice package and our son is super excited for the opportunity.  He will live at home for the first year (his choice) so he can focus on nutrition, etc and it saves rent!  He has a key to his old summer team facility that is 10 minutes from our house and we were up there last night hitting and working out.  Selfishly, it is nice to have him home and be able to continue doing those things with him.

He has talked to several of his friends that were in different D1 programs around the state and a large percentage of them are in the same boat as him.  Their programs are bringing in a ton of new talent through the portal and they are being told "the opportunities for play time will be limited again next year".  Most of them are looking to transfer to JUCO programs.

Congrats to your son.  I think that was a decision.  I would advise your son's friends to really study the JUCO teams that are recruiting them.  I know several that have gone through the portal process and the top teams in JUCO recruit harder than anyone.  Some of those kids will end up in the same boat they were in which is at a  JUCO and still not playing.  My son's JUCO brought in a lot of D1 transfers almost all from the SEC and about half have done well and half still aren't playing or were gone after a semester.   

@d-mac posted:

Congrats to your son.  I think that was a decision.  I would advise your son's friends to really study the JUCO teams that are recruiting them.  I know several that have gone through the portal process and the top teams in JUCO recruit harder than anyone.  Some of those kids will end up in the same boat they were in which is at a  JUCO and still not playing.  My son's JUCO brought in a lot of D1 transfers almost all from the SEC and about half have done well and half still aren't playing or were gone after a semester.   

Thanks!  One of the JUCO coaches told my son that he would be competing with SEC and Big12 kids for play time.  He said they are seeing a huge amount of kids transferring in from situations similar to my son's experience.  At least the coach was honest and upfront about it.  I think he made a good decision as well and hopefully he can have a good college experience from here on out. 

@TimeFlies posted:

Thanks!  One of the JUCO coaches told my son that he would be competing with SEC and Big12 kids for play time.  He said they are seeing a huge amount of kids transferring in from situations similar to my son's experience.  At least the coach was honest and upfront about it.  I think he made a good decision as well and hopefully he can have a good college experience from here on out.

That’s exactly why I advised you to take the D2 deal now. Things are NOT getting any better! Anyone that thinks they are is delusional.