Struck out 7 this afternoon in 3 innings, one walk. A couple of good hits against him. And no one yelling, "Just let them hit it!"
LHPMom
quote:Originally posted by LHPMom2012:
Struck out 7 this afternoon in 3 innings, one walk. A couple of good hits against him. And no one yelling, "Just let them hit it!"
LHPMom
How many pitches were thrown in the 3 innings?
Good question TPM and what I thought of first when I read the post.
Gingerbreadman no offense but I still think American baseball is better than Asian baseball. Maybe it's simple American arrogance but the problem with the World Baseball Classic is it's pretty much a one and done format. Baseball is a game where anybody at anytime can be beaten. It's been proven time and time again over the history of baseball. I would love to see how the Asian teams would do against the American team in a 7 game series.
I'm not trashing Asian baseball because it is of very high quality. That shows by the number of players coming to America to play. I'm just saying that if you take 10 of the best American players and compare them to the 10 best Asian players there might be 4 - 5 Asians who could compete equally with the Americans. That will probably change over the next couple of decades and they will catch up.
Gingerbreadman no offense but I still think American baseball is better than Asian baseball. Maybe it's simple American arrogance but the problem with the World Baseball Classic is it's pretty much a one and done format. Baseball is a game where anybody at anytime can be beaten. It's been proven time and time again over the history of baseball. I would love to see how the Asian teams would do against the American team in a 7 game series.
I'm not trashing Asian baseball because it is of very high quality. That shows by the number of players coming to America to play. I'm just saying that if you take 10 of the best American players and compare them to the 10 best Asian players there might be 4 - 5 Asians who could compete equally with the Americans. That will probably change over the next couple of decades and they will catch up.
C2709,
I only asked because I can't see a coach telling the pitcher to "let them hit you", unless he was going to deep into the count.
Everyone knows it's better to not let a hiter take a base, but it is also important for young pitchers to work efficiently (less pitches thrown).
I only asked because I can't see a coach telling the pitcher to "let them hit you", unless he was going to deep into the count.
Everyone knows it's better to not let a hiter take a base, but it is also important for young pitchers to work efficiently (less pitches thrown).
GB
I know this has nothing to do with pitch to contact but I can not let this go.
Out of the top 10 strikeout pitchers from the US 1 was at the World baseball classic. Out of the top 10 ERA starters 1 was on the US team. The pitcher Korea beat was 8-16 in the MLB last year. The guy the Japan team beat was not a top 10 arm last year. So I have to strongly disagree. The Olympics, seriously we sent our minor league guys. I am not taking away from Korea or Japan, both have great players. The kid on the mound today for Japan is dominant. Dice K has been very good in MLB.
I know this has nothing to do with pitch to contact but I can not let this go.
Out of the top 10 strikeout pitchers from the US 1 was at the World baseball classic. Out of the top 10 ERA starters 1 was on the US team. The pitcher Korea beat was 8-16 in the MLB last year. The guy the Japan team beat was not a top 10 arm last year. So I have to strongly disagree. The Olympics, seriously we sent our minor league guys. I am not taking away from Korea or Japan, both have great players. The kid on the mound today for Japan is dominant. Dice K has been very good in MLB.
That's pretty much my point as well about pitching efficiently. Seven K's in 3 innings is pretty good but did he go to a full count on every hitter and walk several or did he throw 4 - 5 pitches per batter for a total in the neighborhood of 15 total?
The first is not good and not effective and against a good team he will not last long but if it's the second then he not only dominated but he will still be more effective at the end of the game.
The first is not good and not effective and against a good team he will not last long but if it's the second then he not only dominated but he will still be more effective at the end of the game.
The loss was because of 4 unearned runs due to fielding errors and had nothing to do with pitching.
quote:How many pitches were thrown in the 3 innings?
67. I think he faced about 15 batters.
LHPMom
Pastime...you are probably right in what you say.
But...I feel it is embarrassing that the US does not win this tournament. I think it should be taken a little more seriously.
Baseball is "supposed" to be Americas game. I would think you should try to win it...at least once...to prove that you are the best. Isn't it that way when the basketball team plays in the Olympics?
I don't know...maybe I'm off base...but I just don't like when the USA loses. Then to make excuses as to why is even worse.
But...I feel it is embarrassing that the US does not win this tournament. I think it should be taken a little more seriously.
Baseball is "supposed" to be Americas game. I would think you should try to win it...at least once...to prove that you are the best. Isn't it that way when the basketball team plays in the Olympics?
I don't know...maybe I'm off base...but I just don't like when the USA loses. Then to make excuses as to why is even worse.
quote:Originally posted by LHPMom2012:quote:How many pitches were thrown in the 3 innings?
67. I think he faced about 15 batters.
LHPMom
Oh, My! 67 pitches in 3 Inn, that's almost a 7 Inn pitch count for any good contact pitcher. TPM you asked a good question.
As for team USA, RobV, you are right, we need to prove at least once that we can compete. Did we ever win anything since Baseball became a Olympic event in the 80s?....
quote:Originally posted by LHPMom2012:quote:How many pitches were thrown in the 3 innings?
67. I think he faced about 15 batters.
LHPMom
My point exactly. A good HS pitcher needs to be below 15 pitches/inning to get through 7 innings. If you want to keep your pitch count to 95 or less he will need to be at 13 or lower. To achieve this you must be efficient and get contact early(pitchers). K's will come but 4-7 per game are typical for a good HS pitcher.
I am not arguing that what the US sent was good. it was a small portion of good players but not the best. The US needs to figure out how to make it work. Bottom line the owners care more about the season than this. So until they buy in. The US will continue to struggle. I do not believe the US lost because of pitching i am just throwing out the US would be much more dominant with it's better arms available.
LHP2012,
How hard does your son throw???
LHP2012,
How hard does your son throw???
quote:67. I think he faced about 15 batters
Way too many pitches for 3 innings. There is no way he could ever start and finish a game. He's averaging 22 pitches per inning so for a 7 inning game he would throw 154 total.
Also, another factor is that he saw 15 batters in 3 innings which means that will average to the three guys he gets out per inning plus two runners on / scored each inning.
I'm willing to bet he throws pretty hard and that's half the battle. He needs to learn how to hit his spots which will increase the number of outs by groundball and flyball.
My son only throws in the high 70s. Sometimes he'll hit 80 but he doesn't stay there. I've been told that he throws very hard for his age and handedness, but considering the number of posters here who have lefty sons in 8th or 9th grade that are 6'4" and throwing 85, I guess not. He is also only 6'1".
The coach has him on a 75 pitch limit. He also had him throwing mostly fastballs until they started hitting him. Then he switched to off-speed and got the last out (another K.)
His dad asked him afterward about his speed, and he said he only threw at about 85% after the first few batters. He does have a lot of movement on his fast ball.
He's on JV.
LHPMom
The coach has him on a 75 pitch limit. He also had him throwing mostly fastballs until they started hitting him. Then he switched to off-speed and got the last out (another K.)
His dad asked him afterward about his speed, and he said he only threw at about 85% after the first few batters. He does have a lot of movement on his fast ball.
He's on JV.
LHPMom
I think Coach has a good handle on the situation. So as a high school coach in charge of pitchers. A lefty throwing 78-81 will have success and will get many strikeouts on JV. My goal and approach with him would be to get him in the strike zone more. Because once he gets to Varsity the runners on base will catch up with him, and I imagine he falls behind in the count a lot. Which is going to force him to throw a lot more hittable pitches. I had lefty very similar in every category that you described. he is now a junior. he pitched varsity last year and had little success. He was not use to not being able to blow people away. it was a huge adjustment for him. He is now pitching with a lot more confidence and success. The key for him was playing for a much better travel team and facing Varsity hitters. You will have to increase the level of competition for him. He has to get used to pitching and not just throwing. I have found it is tough to teach kids without failure as to how to pitch.
As a coach for high school, I am looking for kids under 85 to be more contact pitchers and guys over 85 to be more my strikeout guys. This is a very general rule. I have seen plenty of guys be the opposite.
From personal expierence, I was a lefty pitcher in high school. I was 83-85 with a very good breaking ball. I did not want the ball put in play. I walked a lot and struck a lot out. I threw a lot of pitches or did not go a lot of innings. It took me until college before I figured out how to pitch. I got pounded in the fall trying to strike people out. All of sudden I was not good enough to walk 2 and then strike out 3. Now I would walk to and give up a double in the gap or worse a homerun. That failure was the best thing for me.
As a coach for high school, I am looking for kids under 85 to be more contact pitchers and guys over 85 to be more my strikeout guys. This is a very general rule. I have seen plenty of guys be the opposite.
From personal expierence, I was a lefty pitcher in high school. I was 83-85 with a very good breaking ball. I did not want the ball put in play. I walked a lot and struck a lot out. I threw a lot of pitches or did not go a lot of innings. It took me until college before I figured out how to pitch. I got pounded in the fall trying to strike people out. All of sudden I was not good enough to walk 2 and then strike out 3. Now I would walk to and give up a double in the gap or worse a homerun. That failure was the best thing for me.
I used to think that American baseball was dominant, but anymore I am not so sure. I think a lot of it has to do with watching the olympics and wbc. I watch the plays that some of the other countries consistantly make and i know it just isn't a fluke. Maybe things would be different if the Americans took it a little more serious. But I still guage "American MLB players" as the best in the world. It really shouldn't matter then who we really send to the wbc if they are at least mlb players. After all, they are supposed to be the best in the world. So when I see a team like Korea beat a team of mlb players, I got to take my hat off to them because they prove to me that they are as good as or better than our mlb players- the highest level of player supposedly in the world!
I think a lot of it has to do with selecting the right players, and America may not have picked the best players for the job. But this is the world stage, and the players that were picked played their hearts out! Even if we just say that the American team was just "average" mlb players, then it also shows that the Asians can produce teams that can play above avergae by mlb standards.
I personally believe that right now the Asians have a better training system for teaching and perfecting the school of baseball to their players as a whole system- from youth to the pro level. I personally believe their players are better conditioned for playing baseball. I also believe that their pitching in many respects is step above the Americans. Just my opinion and I will take it as I see it.
I think one of the many problems we may have in this country with throwing/ pitching is that there seems to be a school of thought that there are only so many pitches in an arm or that limiting pitchers to an incredibly low count somehow is better for their arm. Some schools of thought think it is not even good to really throw before the age of 14-15! The kids who do try and learn at the early age are often taken out of their comfort zone as pitchers and taught to throw differently. What I have seen, (and I come from a highly comeptetive baseball area) is just a general lack of "understanding" and interest in knowing how the arm and body works- how it generates and repeats velocity.
Americans (and possibly other countries) are trained to just repeat the most common phrases heard at the baseball field until suddenly it becomes the general rule. Who really does go home and research and find out for themselves? Very few! My son has been told to "throw like he is holding a dixie cup of water and not to spill it"- maybe for a catcher, son on the mound is different! Been told- son needs to come "over the top" that it will "ruin his arm" if he doesn't. Heck, who pitches over the top? Very few professional pitchers even come close to pitching at a releae of 12:00, most are in the 3/4 between 10-11:00. Been told son throws too many "sidearm pitches" and that he will need surgery before he exits high school. So much for Randy Johnson! Been told that sons follow through doesn't come down to the ground enough- that he will hurt himself. Low 3/4 guys and sidearmers don't finish in the ground they finish to the side- the path of the arm motion. Been told that son needs to keep his "elbow higher than his shoulder". Seems to me that those kind of hurlers end up having surgery. All the strong dependable pitchers throw with elbow lower than shoulder. Been told that son's stride is too short. Stride length is almost always proportionate to age of maturity and velocity- it increases as they get stronger and taller. Sons stride has increased in proportion to his velocity and heigth.
And on and on and on....
Too many schools of thought teaching kids how to injure themselves in my opinion in this country.
I think a lot of it has to do with selecting the right players, and America may not have picked the best players for the job. But this is the world stage, and the players that were picked played their hearts out! Even if we just say that the American team was just "average" mlb players, then it also shows that the Asians can produce teams that can play above avergae by mlb standards.
I personally believe that right now the Asians have a better training system for teaching and perfecting the school of baseball to their players as a whole system- from youth to the pro level. I personally believe their players are better conditioned for playing baseball. I also believe that their pitching in many respects is step above the Americans. Just my opinion and I will take it as I see it.
I think one of the many problems we may have in this country with throwing/ pitching is that there seems to be a school of thought that there are only so many pitches in an arm or that limiting pitchers to an incredibly low count somehow is better for their arm. Some schools of thought think it is not even good to really throw before the age of 14-15! The kids who do try and learn at the early age are often taken out of their comfort zone as pitchers and taught to throw differently. What I have seen, (and I come from a highly comeptetive baseball area) is just a general lack of "understanding" and interest in knowing how the arm and body works- how it generates and repeats velocity.
Americans (and possibly other countries) are trained to just repeat the most common phrases heard at the baseball field until suddenly it becomes the general rule. Who really does go home and research and find out for themselves? Very few! My son has been told to "throw like he is holding a dixie cup of water and not to spill it"- maybe for a catcher, son on the mound is different! Been told- son needs to come "over the top" that it will "ruin his arm" if he doesn't. Heck, who pitches over the top? Very few professional pitchers even come close to pitching at a releae of 12:00, most are in the 3/4 between 10-11:00. Been told son throws too many "sidearm pitches" and that he will need surgery before he exits high school. So much for Randy Johnson! Been told that sons follow through doesn't come down to the ground enough- that he will hurt himself. Low 3/4 guys and sidearmers don't finish in the ground they finish to the side- the path of the arm motion. Been told that son needs to keep his "elbow higher than his shoulder". Seems to me that those kind of hurlers end up having surgery. All the strong dependable pitchers throw with elbow lower than shoulder. Been told that son's stride is too short. Stride length is almost always proportionate to age of maturity and velocity- it increases as they get stronger and taller. Sons stride has increased in proportion to his velocity and heigth.
And on and on and on....
Too many schools of thought teaching kids how to injure themselves in my opinion in this country.
Of the 67 pitches he threw yesterday, 45 were strikes.
He has pitched against some very good travel teams and over the fall faced some varsity. He tends to be more of a contact pitcher in those situations.
He has a very good slider and change-up.
LHPMom
He has pitched against some very good travel teams and over the fall faced some varsity. He tends to be more of a contact pitcher in those situations.
He has a very good slider and change-up.
LHPMom
quote:
Too many schools of thought teaching kids how to injure themselves in my opinion in this country.
Some of the things you speak about do not fall within schools of thought.
Maybe that's how they do it in Idaho, but not where I am from. You will eventually come out of your corner of the world and understand.
In the meantime, not sure how WBC got intertwined, but I go with something I hear today. Just because a player is on a MLB roster does not make him the best in the world. Until we play the best in these type of situations, why even bother. Baseball is a diverse sport, the MVP of WBC plays for an American team. What would have been if those MLB players who were playing for their homeland played for USA? This is why I see this as all messed up. JMO.
LHPmom,
I can understand why your son's coach told him to pitch to contact, 67 in 3 innings is not efficient, no matter what his age, velocity or right handed vs. left handed.
I think that you have been given excellent advice here.
quote:Some of the things you speak about do not fall within schools of thought.
Maybe that's how they do it in Idaho, but not where I am from. You will eventually come out of your corner of the world and understand.
Its not just Idaho. Those phrases are commonly misunderstood pitching philosophies all over the country.
Before anyone thinks the Asian teams have a better way to train pitchers, last year Dice K was interviewed in the Boston Globe regarding Japanese training and pitch counts. He said Japanese pitchers are blowing out their arms at a very high rate. What the American fans see are some of the survivors who sign with MLB teams.
quote:Originally posted by RJM:
Before anyone thinks the Asian teams have a better way to train pitchers, last year Dice K was interviewed in the Boston Globe regarding Japanese training and pitch counts. He said Japanese pitchers are blowing out their arms at a very high rate. What the American fans see are some of the survivors who sign with MLB teams.
If these guys are so good, wouldn't there be more in MLB?
GM,
I am NOT disagreeing with you on some points made, I just do not agree with your philosophy of dropping the arm slot. I posted that link (if you read it) with son to prove my point. Once he gets to college, things will change, what are you going to do, tell the college coach what to do? My point being, you can get away with a lot at 13,14 and in HS. But at some point, someone is going to undo what you thinK is a good thing. JMO.
If you were my sons coach teaching him that you wouldn't be his coach anymore.
Do not compare Randy Johnson with anyone. BTW, does he change his arm slot often? Is that his natural slot?
GB,
I wish you and your son the best of luck. Watching kids develop is a lot of fun. I have learned a lot with each pitcher that has come through my program.
I wish you and your son the best of luck. Watching kids develop is a lot of fun. I have learned a lot with each pitcher that has come through my program.
Perhaps so. He does wish to play at the college level and I am sure if he does play at college he will pretty much pitch how they want him to pitch at that level. The best advice my son ever received was from a former pro pitcher telling him not to change his arm slot.
I really do seek for the best care and knowledge of baseball. Half of me wants to go to all the pitching and baseball camps/clinics, and the other half wants to stay as far away from it as possible. I had one parent come back from a recent camp at a college with a mission to change all of our pitchers arm motions saying that he learned at the camp that the hand shouldn't travel at or below the waist level when bringing the ball back in to position to throw. I think maybe he might have been applying an infielders drill or catchers drill to pitching, but regardless, kids change their motions because so and so said to.
I guess I have the philosophy of "if it isn't broke, don't fix it". This is not to say that my son couldn't learn new things and perhaps pitch better, everyone has room for improvement. Every coach does things different and as such, they all want to teach a different philosophy. It is really all about finding the right coaching, something I have found is very hard to do! Hopefully things aren't so bad at the college and pro level! Son's current head coach really emphasizes conditioning, warming up and stretching out, something that I have always known to be important. I will stick with the team just because of that philosophy.
I think it is very important at least from what I see to get multiple opinions and do research before just doing what someone says regardless of where they say they got their information (college camps, etc), for all we know they may be misapplying something that is true to something that is different.
I really do seek for the best care and knowledge of baseball. Half of me wants to go to all the pitching and baseball camps/clinics, and the other half wants to stay as far away from it as possible. I had one parent come back from a recent camp at a college with a mission to change all of our pitchers arm motions saying that he learned at the camp that the hand shouldn't travel at or below the waist level when bringing the ball back in to position to throw. I think maybe he might have been applying an infielders drill or catchers drill to pitching, but regardless, kids change their motions because so and so said to.
I guess I have the philosophy of "if it isn't broke, don't fix it". This is not to say that my son couldn't learn new things and perhaps pitch better, everyone has room for improvement. Every coach does things different and as such, they all want to teach a different philosophy. It is really all about finding the right coaching, something I have found is very hard to do! Hopefully things aren't so bad at the college and pro level! Son's current head coach really emphasizes conditioning, warming up and stretching out, something that I have always known to be important. I will stick with the team just because of that philosophy.
I think it is very important at least from what I see to get multiple opinions and do research before just doing what someone says regardless of where they say they got their information (college camps, etc), for all we know they may be misapplying something that is true to something that is different.
GM,
I don't recall anyone here stating that the pitchers natural arm slot should be changed, the discussion involved using more than one to rely on for success.
We left son alone because it was a slight drop from his natural 3/4 for a particular pitch.
Once he got to college, it had to be tweaked for him to advance to the next level. It took awhile so that no injury would occur, the "muscle memory" had to be changed. It took a while for that to happen. As explained to me, a pitcher should not be thinking from which slot he will pitch, repeating one motion (whatever it is) should be on automatic pilot.
It may be easier to think about it at 13,14 but when you get to the next levels, there really is not time to "think" about what slot you should throw from.
Again the reason being as in son's case, hitters are smarter, changing delivery even a slight bit meant another type of pitch was coming. I do know you know that is called tipping.
You will find that most pitching coaches who actually do know what they are doing basically have the same philosophy which includes a repeated delivery for every pitch.
I don't recall anyone here stating that the pitchers natural arm slot should be changed, the discussion involved using more than one to rely on for success.
We left son alone because it was a slight drop from his natural 3/4 for a particular pitch.
Once he got to college, it had to be tweaked for him to advance to the next level. It took awhile so that no injury would occur, the "muscle memory" had to be changed. It took a while for that to happen. As explained to me, a pitcher should not be thinking from which slot he will pitch, repeating one motion (whatever it is) should be on automatic pilot.
It may be easier to think about it at 13,14 but when you get to the next levels, there really is not time to "think" about what slot you should throw from.
Again the reason being as in son's case, hitters are smarter, changing delivery even a slight bit meant another type of pitch was coming. I do know you know that is called tipping.
You will find that most pitching coaches who actually do know what they are doing basically have the same philosophy which includes a repeated delivery for every pitch.
