First off, I think a lot of you need to go to Jerry Ford's post on perfect Games website and read the statistics of pitcher and fastballs. Jerry nice to see the numbers. Thanks for doing that.
RJm, have to disagree. I see a ton of 16U and 18U travel teams with all sorts of kid throwing 75 or below. I gurantee Mr. Ford does as well. I do not know how successful they are. Most top level high schools will not. But there are a lot more high school's that are below average that run 74 out there on occasion. I would say the majority of pitcher's are in the 78-83 range.
As a coach that calls all pitches during games. We do look ot get ahead and stay ahead. Jerry Ford was again dead on in his post early. I am not looking for contact or no contact. I am looking to fool the hitter. Whether that be location or speed. I want to fool him. If he makes contact great. If he does not make contact great. Both are positives.
A coach will commonly use the phrase pitch to contact to get you in the zone more. I use it. It is a different way of saying throw strikes. We generally say it to pitchers who struggle to trust their teamates and put us on our heels more times than not. They have the weight of the world on their shoulders. If they do not pick up a K they failed (in their mind). LHP your son has to have success pitching in the strike zone. He needs a lot of reminders from teammates that they have his back, and for a little while he needs them to make plays. He will begin to develop more confidence pitching in the strike zone. Once your learn to "trust your stuff" (Another phrase used way to much by me) your confidence will soar and you will in turn become more effective. it takes a lot of time though. Some guys figure it out early, some it takes years.
If a kid can keep the ball in the strike zone enough to not be going deep in the count all the time, there's nothing wrong with K's. The best defense in high school is half the outs being K's. The best pitchers will get ten, eleven a game.
But, before someone posts it, a pitcher can be very successful with half as many K's as long as they mix it up and stay away from the middle of the plate.
But, before someone posts it, a pitcher can be very successful with half as many K's as long as they mix it up and stay away from the middle of the plate.
Pastime you are right on!: Velocities I have recorded so far this season (HS Varsity in games - Stalker) I typically note velocities at the top of the score book for the coaches when they are looking over the game afterward. These were against some strong SoCal teams - two of them would give any team in the country a tough game.
BTW the best HS defense is 21 Groundball outs! Power pitchers will get their K's. From my count we have seen 3 in 28 pitchers.
Average = 79.6
Mean = 78
88-90 - tough seeing this guy your first at bat of the season….
80-81
83-84
76-77
78
76-78
76-80
74-75
78-79
75-76
72-74
78-79
77-78
80-81
78
83-84
81
74-75
77-78
72-74 This guy is nasty lots of K's at 73!
80-81
79-81
88-90
78-79
88-90
78-79
79-81
BTW the best HS defense is 21 Groundball outs! Power pitchers will get their K's. From my count we have seen 3 in 28 pitchers.
Average = 79.6
Mean = 78
88-90 - tough seeing this guy your first at bat of the season….
80-81
83-84
76-77
78
76-78
76-80
74-75
78-79
75-76
72-74
78-79
77-78
80-81
78
83-84
81
74-75
77-78
72-74 This guy is nasty lots of K's at 73!
80-81
79-81
88-90
78-79
88-90
78-79
79-81
I am a rookie compared to many of these guys giving advice (my son turns 15 March 28 and is a freshman). One point I have noticed with many kids is early on the kids who are extreme flame-throwers if not coached properly don't learn how to pitch because at an early age they could throw it past everyone and never developed. My son was fortunate to have a wonderful pitching coach that has developed him as an all-round pitcher (biggest thing we work on now is off-speed). He has better then avg. speed (80mph+), very good at location, good mvt. His K pitch when he was younger and still is his 2-seam fastball hitters used to miss it a lot and he would get a lot of K's, now with better hitters it has developed into a dribbler back to the mound--when he's on he will get 4-5 of these a game along with 4-5 K's if he pitches 5-6 innings tha's 1/2 the outs +. I being a novice was worried he was not getting as many K's but the more experinced dad's would say its better because he throws less pitches. Now I understand more what they mean by contact pitcher--it gets harder to get K's agianst quality hitters but avoid solid contact with late movement and locaction. My son picked up on this long before I did--thank God.
Again, it's pretty simple, keep 'em off balance and throw strikes, you will be successful more often than not!
But then again, what do I know
But then again, what do I know
been around baseball for awhile. so the question i'm going to ask, sounds just as foolish to me. 
how do you become a SO pitcher? maybe you are a contact pitcher....and nobody makes contact? if their not hitting you, you can't makem.
was that a yogism.
how do you become a SO pitcher? maybe you are a contact pitcher....and nobody makes contact? if their not hitting you, you can't makem.
was that a yogism.
The point about the K's being the best defense is a percentage of ground balls in high school will result in errors on the catch or throw. Take a way half the grounders and chances are you're eliminating at least one error.quote:the best HS defense is 21 Groundball outs!
Want to become a strike out king? Then become a good magician on the mound! Develop the absolute nasty strike pitch- the one every good hitting team is afraid of.
Years ago I overheard a pitcher talking about pitching being a form of magic- being able to decieve batters so bad that they just can't believe how you threw that dang ball by them without them hitting it- must be some kind of magic!
I took note of that and ever since I have tried to instill in my pitchers the fine art of deception. Little things like not showing the ball until its coming at you and speeding up and slowing down the delivery. Even changing facial expressions works well sometimes. Throwing from an intentional certain mechanic on a breaking ball and then follow it up by using the same mechanic delivery to sneak a fastball in. Use the plane of balls to deceive- throw fastablls and chang-ups from the same exact plane as it leaves your hand. Make it appear like your fastball decides on its own where it wants to go and how fast it will get there. Throwing change-ups at different speeds makes the ball appear to hop some times.
I like watching Asain pitchers because they are more magicians than pitchers, They use a lot of motions that disrupt a batters timing. They also use a wide variety of offspeed pitches to throw off the timing. On top of that they each have their own unique style which in turn makes them better.
Years ago I overheard a pitcher talking about pitching being a form of magic- being able to decieve batters so bad that they just can't believe how you threw that dang ball by them without them hitting it- must be some kind of magic!
I took note of that and ever since I have tried to instill in my pitchers the fine art of deception. Little things like not showing the ball until its coming at you and speeding up and slowing down the delivery. Even changing facial expressions works well sometimes. Throwing from an intentional certain mechanic on a breaking ball and then follow it up by using the same mechanic delivery to sneak a fastball in. Use the plane of balls to deceive- throw fastablls and chang-ups from the same exact plane as it leaves your hand. Make it appear like your fastball decides on its own where it wants to go and how fast it will get there. Throwing change-ups at different speeds makes the ball appear to hop some times.
I like watching Asain pitchers because they are more magicians than pitchers, They use a lot of motions that disrupt a batters timing. They also use a wide variety of offspeed pitches to throw off the timing. On top of that they each have their own unique style which in turn makes them better.
quote:Originally posted by RJM: Take a way half the grounders and chances are you're eliminating at least one error.
Most HS infields at the Varsity level are .95% fielders(some better). That is 1 error per game in the infield. Even if they are poor at .90 that is 2. No big deal boot a ball, give it back to the pitcher and we go 6-4-3 and walk off. The pitcher will throw 20% (or more) fewer pitches, the game is going to move along faster, your teammates are involved. I'll take my GB's to your K's any day of the week.
I'd like to believe that. Maybe my kid is snakebit, but in 14 innings of work, our shortstop has committed 5 errors resulting in 7 unearned runs. What is weird, I don't think he has an error in the other 35 innings played. We have played 7 games, so it does average out to less than one error per game, but they were definetely costly.
I still think you pitch to get outs and if you are lucky or good enough to get strike outs, then all is good.
I still think you pitch to get outs and if you are lucky or good enough to get strike outs, then all is good.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Want to become a strike out king? Then become a good magician on the mound! Develop the absolute nasty strike pitch- the one every good hitting team is afraid of.
Years ago I overheard a pitcher talking about pitching being a form of magic- being able to decieve batters so bad that they just can't believe how you threw that dang ball by them without them hitting it- must be some kind of magic!
I took note of that and ever since I have tried to instill in my pitchers the fine art of deception. Little things like not showing the ball until its coming at you and speeding up and slowing down the delivery. Even changing facial expressions works well sometimes. Throwing from an intentional certain mechanic on a breaking ball and then follow it up by using the same mechanic delivery to sneak a fastball in. Use the plane of balls to deceive- throw fastablls and chang-ups from the same exact plane as it leaves your hand. Make it appear like your fastball decides on its own where it wants to go and how fast it will get there. Throwing change-ups at different speeds makes the ball appear to hop some times.
I like watching Asain pitchers because they are more magicians than pitchers, They use a lot of motions that disrupt a batters timing. They also use a wide variety of offspeed pitches to throw off the timing. On top of that they each have their own unique style which in turn makes them better.
GM,
I think that most of us are in agreement that pitching is about deception. As your player gets older hitters become smarter, you can't rely on deception all of the time. JMO.
I think that we all can agree that the object is to get on the mound and get off as quickly as you can throwing less pitches to achieve that.
quote:Originally posted by bballman:
I'd like to believe that. Maybe my kid is snakebit, but in 14 innings of work, our shortstop has committed 5 errors resulting in 7 unearned runs.
bbman: note "Varsity"....Freshmen it all depends. Early season also has a lot of variability.
Agree with the out theory as in take them any way you can get um.
Have him do the Linemen/Quarterback thing and buy him dinner/lunch or something.
I try not to get too involved in these type topics. It's just that once in awhile the messages sent out there don't make any sense and could confuse a young kid trying to learn something. So I can't help it... Sorry!
Gingerbread, I've got to be honest here. The ability to be consisitent with your mechanics is probably the #1 most important thing in becoming an outstanding pitcher. Maybe the number one problem we see in young pitchers is their inability to repeat their delivery. I'm only saying this so that those who don't know any better will have a different viewpoint to consider. You are making this even more complicating than it already is. Young pitchers need to work on commanding their fastball. It is and always has been the most important pitch in baseball for almost every pitcher who has ever played. Until that is accomplished, nothing else matters. Facial expressions are simply not important. Good hitters don't care about facial expressions.
You also posted the above gem, earlier.
Where are you getting your information? The lowest batting average for any specific count is 0-2. Next worse is 1-2. Can you guess why that is? It's because the hitter can swing and miss without making an out on any count except with 2 strikes. Swing and miss or get a called strike with a 2 strike count and you are an out! Anyway, an analysis of nearly 100 of the top hitters in baseball suggests that the best [hitters] bat about 70 points higher and slug 130 points higher on 0-0. (I took that from a study). Truth is, hitters do not like 2 strikes counts. So pitchers should love to have 2 strike counts as long as they are ahead in the count. In that case the best outcome is one pitch=Strike out or hitter chases and hits a weak groundball or pop up. In fact, the secret to pitching is being ahead in the count and statistics back that up. That is why strike one is often referred to as the most important pitch. Pitching to contact is misunderstood by many. It certainly doesn't mean... Let them hit it... It doesn't mean... Pitch to hard contact... It means pitch to poor contact.
Not as troublesome, but I get confused by many of the numbers that get thrown around...
This was posted by BOF and it confuses me, though I would agree with much of what BOF has posted earlier..
BOF,
If I can have a 4 pitch K vs. a 4 pitch ground ball... I'll take the K everytime! One thing for sure, the K is much more likely to be an out than the groundball. The only problem with strike outs pitchers is they have to throw more pitches to get outs. With 2 strikes on a hitter, I will always take the K.
Guess I really don't know what the fielding percentage is for high school infielders, but I do know that hall-of-famer, Cal Ripken, had this fielding % his last 5 or 6 years... .953%, .952%, .948%, .950%, .947% and .947%
Are you sure that most high school infielders are .950% (some better)? (Just like Ripken was) Also, what would you want with the winning run on 3B and no outs? Want the strike out or the ground ball? The biggest advantage in pitching to contact is you throw less pitches. Everyone understands that. Please understand that many of the greatest pitchers ever also had the most strikeouts ever. Pitching to contact is a term used usually to describe sinker ball pitchers, these days. Ground ball pitchers are in demand especially in DP situations. Most ground balls are outs, a much bigger percentage than fly balls, but people need to remember that the rest include more than just errors. Lots of those ground balls become hits. I imagine we have all seen many ground ball "hits". Haven't we?
Most pitchers have three pitches that have a purpose.
1 - Control Pitch
2 - Out Pitch
3 - Strike Out Pitch
Most often, by far, the Control Pitch is the fastball
The Out Pitch can be anything, but it is the pitch where the phrase "pitch to contact" is used. For many this is the sinker.
The Strike Out Pitch is often the breaking ball, but some rely on a good moving, high velocity fastball to a certain location.
Hitters quickly figure out how those pitches line up. They want to know what you throw in control situations. What you throw early in the count for outs. What you throw when you want or need a strikeout. Not having a knock out pitch (K pitch) limits a pitcher somewhat. That doesn't mean you have to be a strike out pitcher.
Here is something I wrote for our website. I'm far from a good writer, but whether anyone agrees or not, they might at least give some thought to certain things.
THE FASTBALL & VELOCITY
quote:I took note of that and ever since I have tried to instill in my pitchers the fine art of deception. Little things like not showing the ball until its coming at you and speeding up and slowing down the delivery. Even changing facial expressions works well sometimes. Throwing from an intentional certain mechanic on a breaking ball and then follow it up by using the same mechanic delivery to sneak a fastball in. Use the plane of balls to deceive- throw fastablls and chang-ups from the same exact plane as it leaves your hand. Make it appear like your fastball decides on its own where it wants to go and how fast it will get there.
Gingerbread, I've got to be honest here. The ability to be consisitent with your mechanics is probably the #1 most important thing in becoming an outstanding pitcher. Maybe the number one problem we see in young pitchers is their inability to repeat their delivery. I'm only saying this so that those who don't know any better will have a different viewpoint to consider. You are making this even more complicating than it already is. Young pitchers need to work on commanding their fastball. It is and always has been the most important pitch in baseball for almost every pitcher who has ever played. Until that is accomplished, nothing else matters. Facial expressions are simply not important. Good hitters don't care about facial expressions.
quote:Then disagree, but do so realizing that at the MLB level, statistically speaking, they are all good batters facing good pitchers and batters swinging at first pitches are hitting less than .190 I would just about bet that they are not just swinging away on bad pitches out of the zone.
You also posted the above gem, earlier.
Where are you getting your information? The lowest batting average for any specific count is 0-2. Next worse is 1-2. Can you guess why that is? It's because the hitter can swing and miss without making an out on any count except with 2 strikes. Swing and miss or get a called strike with a 2 strike count and you are an out! Anyway, an analysis of nearly 100 of the top hitters in baseball suggests that the best [hitters] bat about 70 points higher and slug 130 points higher on 0-0. (I took that from a study). Truth is, hitters do not like 2 strikes counts. So pitchers should love to have 2 strike counts as long as they are ahead in the count. In that case the best outcome is one pitch=Strike out or hitter chases and hits a weak groundball or pop up. In fact, the secret to pitching is being ahead in the count and statistics back that up. That is why strike one is often referred to as the most important pitch. Pitching to contact is misunderstood by many. It certainly doesn't mean... Let them hit it... It doesn't mean... Pitch to hard contact... It means pitch to poor contact.
Not as troublesome, but I get confused by many of the numbers that get thrown around...
This was posted by BOF and it confuses me, though I would agree with much of what BOF has posted earlier..
quote:Most HS infields at the Varsity level are .95% fielders(some better). That is 1 error per game in the infield. Even if they are poor at .90 that is 2. No big deal boot a ball, give it back to the pitcher and we go 6-4-3 and walk off. The pitcher will throw 20% (or more) fewer pitches, the game is going to move along faster, your teammates are involved. I'll take my GB's to your K's any day of the week.
BOF,
If I can have a 4 pitch K vs. a 4 pitch ground ball... I'll take the K everytime! One thing for sure, the K is much more likely to be an out than the groundball. The only problem with strike outs pitchers is they have to throw more pitches to get outs. With 2 strikes on a hitter, I will always take the K.
Guess I really don't know what the fielding percentage is for high school infielders, but I do know that hall-of-famer, Cal Ripken, had this fielding % his last 5 or 6 years... .953%, .952%, .948%, .950%, .947% and .947%
Are you sure that most high school infielders are .950% (some better)? (Just like Ripken was) Also, what would you want with the winning run on 3B and no outs? Want the strike out or the ground ball? The biggest advantage in pitching to contact is you throw less pitches. Everyone understands that. Please understand that many of the greatest pitchers ever also had the most strikeouts ever. Pitching to contact is a term used usually to describe sinker ball pitchers, these days. Ground ball pitchers are in demand especially in DP situations. Most ground balls are outs, a much bigger percentage than fly balls, but people need to remember that the rest include more than just errors. Lots of those ground balls become hits. I imagine we have all seen many ground ball "hits". Haven't we?
Most pitchers have three pitches that have a purpose.
1 - Control Pitch
2 - Out Pitch
3 - Strike Out Pitch
Most often, by far, the Control Pitch is the fastball
The Out Pitch can be anything, but it is the pitch where the phrase "pitch to contact" is used. For many this is the sinker.
The Strike Out Pitch is often the breaking ball, but some rely on a good moving, high velocity fastball to a certain location.
Hitters quickly figure out how those pitches line up. They want to know what you throw in control situations. What you throw early in the count for outs. What you throw when you want or need a strikeout. Not having a knock out pitch (K pitch) limits a pitcher somewhat. That doesn't mean you have to be a strike out pitcher.
Here is something I wrote for our website. I'm far from a good writer, but whether anyone agrees or not, they might at least give some thought to certain things.
THE FASTBALL & VELOCITY
quote:Originally posted by bballman:
I'd like to believe that. Maybe my kid is snakebit, but in 14 innings of work, our shortstop has committed 5 errors resulting in 7 unearned runs. What is weird, I don't think he has an error in the other 35 innings played. We have played 7 games, so it does average out to less than one error per game, but they were definetely costly.
I still think you pitch to get outs and if you are lucky or good enough to get strike outs, then all is good.
I used to think the same thing. Player makes no errors in a game, then when son comes in there's an error in every inning. Part of it was because he put more balls into play, part of it had to do with the attitude. The more relaxed the pitcher is, the looser the team plays.
BOF, it is varsity. Not trying to knock the SS. He is a very good player going to play D1 ball. Not at a powerhouse, but a very respectable school.
TPM, I can go with the balls in play theory. Probably not the attitude issue. Son is very level headed and doesn't get mad or upset about any of it.
May have to do with early in the game. First game was in the 1st inning, next game in the 2nd after a 1-2-3 first, third game in the 1st inning again. He played solid after the initial errors.
I'm probably wrong about snakebit, just seems that way sometimes. We'll work thru it. I say we because it is probably harder for me to deal with than him.
TPM, I can go with the balls in play theory. Probably not the attitude issue. Son is very level headed and doesn't get mad or upset about any of it.
May have to do with early in the game. First game was in the 1st inning, next game in the 2nd after a 1-2-3 first, third game in the 1st inning again. He played solid after the initial errors.
I'm probably wrong about snakebit, just seems that way sometimes. We'll work thru it. I say we because it is probably harder for me to deal with than him.
I told my son once that the kids making errors behind him were giving him an opportunity to demonstrate that he can keep his head, stay calm, and pitch his way through it. Of course he told me that I don't know anything, but perhaps this line of thinking will work with your son.
It is amusingly ironic when the coach yells, "Just get a ground ball!", next pitch produces a ground ball hit at just the right speed... and it goes through the second-baseman's legs.
LHPMom
It is amusingly ironic when the coach yells, "Just get a ground ball!", next pitch produces a ground ball hit at just the right speed... and it goes through the second-baseman's legs.
LHPMom
bballman,
I think that PG has saved the day with his article and post about understanding the phrase "pitch to contact". One certainly doesn't want a contact with 2 outs, 0-2 count with a tied game with the winning run on 3B. That calls for the strikeout. I assumed that perhaps that was understood. My bad. What should be noted is that sikerball pitchers (as is my son) pitches to contact, resulting in weak contact. I guess we shouldn't assume that all pitchers are the same either.
Thanks PG.
I am impressed with the part about how important it is for younger players to develop the FB over any other pitch and learning repeatable mechanics. I am not so sure I totally agree with everything about the radar gun, but he definetly proves it has it's purpose.
I think that PG has saved the day with his article and post about understanding the phrase "pitch to contact". One certainly doesn't want a contact with 2 outs, 0-2 count with a tied game with the winning run on 3B. That calls for the strikeout. I assumed that perhaps that was understood. My bad. What should be noted is that sikerball pitchers (as is my son) pitches to contact, resulting in weak contact. I guess we shouldn't assume that all pitchers are the same either.
Thanks PG.
I am impressed with the part about how important it is for younger players to develop the FB over any other pitch and learning repeatable mechanics. I am not so sure I totally agree with everything about the radar gun, but he definetly proves it has it's purpose.
PG good stuff and points well made. I admit I will overemphasize sometimes to get a point across. Actually we all forget that W’s are more important than L’s and it takes a team to achieve this.
I will do some digging on fielding %'s for HS players and get back to you. All I know is that my son's Freshmen's team last year fielded in total at a 89% rate. The SS was a .92%. (of course this depends if the SS parent is the scorekeeper….maybe another HSBBW theorem. I am pretty sure most Varsity infielders are well north of 90% and in the 95% range. I do remember reading about the top SS somewhere being in the 98% range. I will go confirm the actual numbers. We have started out a little rocky defensively on the Varsity team this year and we are at 89% rate right now. The 2nd basemen is at 0.95 right now, SS is kicking the ball around at 0.88.
To LHPmom’s point the apposing pitcher pitched to contact tonight and resulted in a walk off HR…
Have a great week-end!
I will do some digging on fielding %'s for HS players and get back to you. All I know is that my son's Freshmen's team last year fielded in total at a 89% rate. The SS was a .92%. (of course this depends if the SS parent is the scorekeeper….maybe another HSBBW theorem
. I am pretty sure most Varsity infielders are well north of 90% and in the 95% range. I do remember reading about the top SS somewhere being in the 98% range. I will go confirm the actual numbers. We have started out a little rocky defensively on the Varsity team this year and we are at 89% rate right now. The 2nd basemen is at 0.95 right now, SS is kicking the ball around at 0.88. To LHPmom’s point the apposing pitcher pitched to contact tonight and resulted in a walk off HR…
Have a great week-end!
quote:Gingerbread, I've got to be honest here. The ability to be consisitent with your mechanics is probably the #1 most important thing in becoming an outstanding pitcher. Maybe the number one problem we see in young pitchers is their inability to repeat their delivery. I'm only saying this so that those who don't know any better will have a different viewpoint to consider. You are making this even more complicating than it already is. Young pitchers need to work on commanding their fastball. It is and always has been the most important pitch in baseball for almost every pitcher who has ever played. Until that is accomplished, nothing else matters. Facial expressions are simply not important. Good hitters don't care about facial expressions.
I agree that being consistant with mechanics is important, but I certainly do not believe that it should stop there. American pitchers have become too robotic- they all look the same. I guess I have always had a problem with the "cookie cutter" approach to training pitchers. Why not allow pitchers to create their own style like the Japanese pitchers do? Deception is part of the game. I believe that there is nothing wrong with changing an arm slot or a leg kick or speeding up or slowing the windup sequence. If a pitcher can just realize that once they start to come forward that it all comes back into one (their mechanics come back together and is consistant from that point), then it isn't a problem at all and instead becomes another tool the pitcher can use.
quote:You also posted the above gem, earlier.
Where are you getting your information? The lowest batting average for any specific count is 0-2. Next worse is 1-2. Can you guess why that is? It's because the hitter can swing and miss without making an out on any count except with 2 strikes. Swing and miss or get a called strike with a 2 strike count and you are an out! Anyway, an analysis of nearly 100 of the top hitters in baseball suggests that the best [hitters] bat about 70 points higher and slug 130 points higher on 0-0. (I took that from a study). Truth is, hitters do not like 2 strikes counts. So pitchers should love to have 2 strike counts as long as they are ahead in the count. In that case the best outcome is one pitch=Strike out or hitter chases and hits a weak groundball or pop up. In fact, the secret to pitching is being ahead in the count and statistics back that up. That is why strike one is often referred to as the most important pitch
I got the information from a reputable book called "The Mental Game of Baseball". I agree fully that the best count is 0-2 or 1-2. My point was that statistically speaking, "mlb hitters" who swing on the first pitch only hit .190. This means that they are just not getting "good wood" on balls they put into play when they swing and hit the first pitch. My other point was the stats about the "lead-off" hitter of both a game and an inning. From my own research on the prep level, a walked lead-off batter has the greatests chance of scoring in a game because the odds are best in his favor. He is already 1/4th the way to home base and no outs have been recorded and he hasn't had to swing his bat with less than a 50% chance of getting on anyway.
Once I noticed this, I changed my philosophy and have proven, at least to myself, that lead off hitters do not usually get on base on the first pitch. This is why I believe it is so important to attack batters, especially lead off batters, right off with a strike. Almost every lead off batter will either watch the first pitch or foul it off or hit it weakly for an out. This certainly doesn't mean that the pitcher must throw a perfect meatball down the gut, it just means that his concentration should be to throw a strike in the zone. Let the batter swing if he is going to, relizing that the odds are against him getting on base if he swings on the first offering.
A prominant D1 coach told me that the first thing he looks at when scouting an opponents pitcher is how many Ks per inning he averages. He says that if the pitcher averages AT LEAST 1 K per inning, then he probably has a pretty good pitch that you are not likely to hit. My son was a very good high school pitcher who relied on spotting a moving fastball and the same type changeup. He only averaged about .80 Ks per inning. If he had developed a good breaking ball as an out pitch to raise his strikeout count, he would have been an exceptional high school pitcher.
quote:I agree that being consistant with mechanics is important, but I certainly do not believe that it should stop there. American pitchers have become too robotic- they all look the same. I guess I have always had a problem with the "cookie cutter" approach to training pitchers. Why not allow pitchers to create their own style like the Japanese pitchers do? Deception is part of the game. I believe that there is nothing wrong with changing an arm slot or a leg kick or speeding up or slowing the windup sequence.
Gingerbread,
Being able to repeat your delivery doesn't have anything to do with any "cookie cutter" approach. In fact, I also hate the cookie cutter approach.
Anyone who watches lots of high level baseball would recognize that the best pitchers have different styles. In fact, in any given professional or college game a hitter might see three or four pitchers in a game, all with much different styles, arm angles, velocities, pitches, deception, etc. The one thing the very best have in common is their ability to more consistently repeat their delivery and release.
Billy Connors (Yankees) is considered one of the best pitching guys ever. He would be as far from cookie cutter as it gets. He is the master of making minor adjustments.
Also, the biggest problem with throwing from many different slots is it's very difficult to master one slot, let alone several. Upsetting the hitters timing and balance is always the goal, but it has to be done without the pitcher upsetting his own timing. And keeping the arm healthy has to be considered when experimenting.
I'm old enough to realize that there are many different ways to be successful. On the other hand, I've seen many who want to reinvent the wheel only to see negative results. Nothing wrong with trying to out smart everyone, so long as you also listen to what everyone has to say. You have mentioned (I think) that you've learned a lot of this from a guy who knows a lot about pitching. My advice would be to listen to lots of people before figuring everything out. Just like me, you will be shocked by how much you didn't know. \
Finally, I think you mentioned that your son is still very young and it sounds like he is talented. Things are going to change (better or worse) as he climbs the ladder. Things that work now, may not work later. What you yourself believe is likely to change. Keeping things fairly simple is just fine for young kids. There are many fathers and mothers of pitchers who have much experience who post here. I'm pretty sure that every single one of those parents will tell you... They know much more now than they knew when their son was 13-15 years old. That would include myself. That will include you some day... That's something I can promise you!
quote:Being able to repeat your delivery doesn't have anything to do with any "cookie cutter" approach. In fact, I also hate the cookie cutter approach.
Amen and Amen! Sometimes in practice I get tired of the cookie cutter approach to things, especially with the pitching. I encourage my son to experiment a lot on his own from different slots, different angles from the rubber, more back/less back etc. He realizes that he has to be consistant in games and luckily he doesn't experiment in games, eh eh.
I hope that as my son continues his climb that he will get better.
Just as a note, I was watching the WBC tonight in S. Koreas win over Venezuala and their closing pitcher used at least 3 different arm slots to retire the remaining batters in the game- that is what I like to see- kids with enough talent and guts to step outside the box and in essence prove they are as good or better than the best the world has to offer by doing things in a more unconventional method by todays standards. I miss the old days I guess when pitchers would have real personality out there on the mound.
Gingerbreadman,
I am not sure that you really understand what PG is trying to tell you.
Repeatable delivery, means that every pitch should be coming from the same slot, every pitch. It's different grips that make the ball do differnt things.
That is not to say that a young pitcher can't experiement with finding the right slot that he is comfortable with (or his natural slot). Only because young hitters don't know what to look for.
Changing slots for different pitches tips the hitter as to what pitch is coming. Players can get away with it through HS, because most hitters have no clue what to look for.
My son was able to get away with it also as a young pitcher, when he got to college it took about a year, tons of hard work to get every pitch thrown from the same slot. Coach said lots of bad habits needed lots of work.
I am not sure that you really understand what PG is trying to tell you.
Repeatable delivery, means that every pitch should be coming from the same slot, every pitch. It's different grips that make the ball do differnt things.
That is not to say that a young pitcher can't experiement with finding the right slot that he is comfortable with (or his natural slot). Only because young hitters don't know what to look for.
Changing slots for different pitches tips the hitter as to what pitch is coming. Players can get away with it through HS, because most hitters have no clue what to look for.
My son was able to get away with it also as a young pitcher, when he got to college it took about a year, tons of hard work to get every pitch thrown from the same slot. Coach said lots of bad habits needed lots of work.
quote:Gingerbreadman,
I am not sure that you really understand what PG is trying to tell you.
Repeatable delivery, means that every pitch should be coming from the same slot, every pitch. It's different grips that make the ball do differnt things.
That is not to say that a young pitcher can't experiement with finding the right slot that he is comfortable with (or his natural slot). Only because young hitters don't know what to look for.
Changing slots for different pitches tips the hitter as to what pitch is coming. Players can get away with it through HS, because most hitters have no clue what to look for.
My son was able to get away with it also as a young pitcher, when he got to college it took about a year, tons of hard work to get every pitch thrown from the same slot. Coach said lots of bad habits needed lots of work
I understand fully what PG is telling me. I do realize the American addiction of pitching from the "same slot"- the cookie cutter approach. Nothing wrong with that, most coaches in this country are trained to teach that and call all else "problems". I am fine with that mentality. I honestly believe that if a pitcher has the ability in a game to drop down and throw a fastball sidearm occasionally and have it behave differently than his other slot, then he has more tools to draw upon if he needs it. On occasion I see MLB pitchers using different slots to give batters different looks- keep them off balance. I see nothing wrong with that.
If a pitcher can master all of his pitches from not one but two slots, will this not make him a better pitcher? I believe it will. A case in point-
My son has learned how to pitch both froma semi-submarine slot and a low 3/4 slot. His normal pitches come fromt he 3/4 slot as his velocity is a little higher. In a game we were playing last year he was really struggling to get a batter out- he kept fouling it off- all of his pitches. I gave a sign out to my son to drop down with fastball and so he did catching the batter off guard and him swinging and missing it entirely for the third out. It may be somewaht unconventinal by todays standards but it was effective and it worked. I don't call that a bad habit, I call that having more tools in the toolbox.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Also, the biggest problem with throwing from many different slots is it's very difficult to master one slot, let alone several. Upsetting the hitters timing and balance is always the goal, but it has to be done without the pitcher upsetting his own timing. And keeping the arm healthy has to be considered when experimenting.
I don't know how much bettr PG can say it, especially the last sentence. If I was a parent of a young pitcher reading this, I'd advice to listen to the above advice before anything else..
And, IMO, what you describe your son doing is not having more tools in the toolbox.
gingerbread,
I understand your thought process. I'm just not sure you completely understand mine.
Of course, there is an advantage if a pitcher can throw several pitches from several slots. The biggest problem becomes mastering any of those pitches to the point of reaching something close to potential. What's the old saying... Jack of all trades... Master of None!
If someone can actually do that, then more power to him. Throwing with repeatable mechanics doesn't have anything to do with a "cookie cutter" approach. Cookie Cutter means everyone is taught to throw exactly alike. We already know that, that just doesn't work. There's lots of proof in that regard. If you have one pitcher throwing 3/4, another higher 3/4, another low 3/4, another over the top, and yet another throwing side arm... how is that cookie cutter. Yet on most major league teams that is exactly what you are likely to see. What you don't very often see is one pitcher throwing from several different arm angles. It's too hard to master one!
If someone can actually do it, it certainly would be a great advantage, but my best guess is that you will probably be changing your mind about things as time goes on. We all do!
Best of luck to your son.
I understand your thought process. I'm just not sure you completely understand mine.
Of course, there is an advantage if a pitcher can throw several pitches from several slots. The biggest problem becomes mastering any of those pitches to the point of reaching something close to potential. What's the old saying... Jack of all trades... Master of None!
If someone can actually do that, then more power to him. Throwing with repeatable mechanics doesn't have anything to do with a "cookie cutter" approach. Cookie Cutter means everyone is taught to throw exactly alike. We already know that, that just doesn't work. There's lots of proof in that regard. If you have one pitcher throwing 3/4, another higher 3/4, another low 3/4, another over the top, and yet another throwing side arm... how is that cookie cutter. Yet on most major league teams that is exactly what you are likely to see. What you don't very often see is one pitcher throwing from several different arm angles. It's too hard to master one!
If someone can actually do it, it certainly would be a great advantage, but my best guess is that you will probably be changing your mind about things as time goes on. We all do!
Best of luck to your son.
GBM:
I think some of your ideas are interesting but I don't think you have been around pitching and coaches who have pitched at the highest levels and your son is a long long way - even from HS Varsity ball. Coaches at these levels know what it takes to succeed at these levels, which are significantly different than Rec, HS, College and baseball in Asia.
I belive as your son moves up in level you will get a better understanding what PG is pointing out.
I think some of your ideas are interesting but I don't think you have been around pitching and coaches who have pitched at the highest levels and your son is a long long way - even from HS Varsity ball. Coaches at these levels know what it takes to succeed at these levels, which are significantly different than Rec, HS, College and baseball in Asia.
I belive as your son moves up in level you will get a better understanding what PG is pointing out.
I find this discussion interesting, click on link below to read to find out why.
http://www.perfectgame.org/pla...profile.aspx?ID=9795
Fortunetly, it worked very well for him in HS, but first year in college, he had more bad outings at first than good ones. At that level it's tough to get away with against your better hitters. I suppose that he could have remained that way, I do beleive and understand now why he was not considered a higher draft choice out of HS.
Thank goodness he had a good college pitching coach who knew how to make the adjustments carefully (there is an article somewhere with the college p coach explaining that it was better to make those adjustments sooner than later (at the pro level), but I can't find it.
Son has had a few minor bumps in the road, very well could be possible that he was not doing what he should have all along.
We purposely did not take him to a pitching coach to make those changes, but rather leave it up to someone who knew what he was really doing, and could do it right.
No doubt your son will have success now, but do understand that eventually it's not going to work.
Not sure if many japanese pitchers change their slot, (could their size have something to do with it), but in reality how effective is it after you face the same batter over and over and over, year after year after year? And if those japanese pitchers were so good, why does MLB not have more than they do?
JMO.
http://www.perfectgame.org/pla...profile.aspx?ID=9795
Fortunetly, it worked very well for him in HS, but first year in college, he had more bad outings at first than good ones. At that level it's tough to get away with against your better hitters. I suppose that he could have remained that way, I do beleive and understand now why he was not considered a higher draft choice out of HS.
Thank goodness he had a good college pitching coach who knew how to make the adjustments carefully (there is an article somewhere with the college p coach explaining that it was better to make those adjustments sooner than later (at the pro level), but I can't find it.
Son has had a few minor bumps in the road, very well could be possible that he was not doing what he should have all along.
We purposely did not take him to a pitching coach to make those changes, but rather leave it up to someone who knew what he was really doing, and could do it right.
No doubt your son will have success now, but do understand that eventually it's not going to work.
Not sure if many japanese pitchers change their slot, (could their size have something to do with it), but in reality how effective is it after you face the same batter over and over and over, year after year after year? And if those japanese pitchers were so good, why does MLB not have more than they do?
JMO.
TPM,
I love reading old reports and grades. Also like to look back at our old rankings lists. It's fun to see what was correct and what wasn't. Best part is that we don't seem to have as many people calling us an idiot or saying kids pay to be ranked, when all the results are right there to look at. All those so called "stupid" lists that supposedly don't mean a thing, that nobody cares about or bothers to look at.
Guess it's always the next list that is so wrong, because the past lists have turned out to be extremely accurate in most cases. It's just easier to complain about the list before it becomes the proof.
Thanks for posting that.
I love reading old reports and grades. Also like to look back at our old rankings lists. It's fun to see what was correct and what wasn't. Best part is that we don't seem to have as many people calling us an idiot or saying kids pay to be ranked, when all the results are right there to look at. All those so called "stupid" lists that supposedly don't mean a thing, that nobody cares about or bothers to look at.
Guess it's always the next list that is so wrong, because the past lists have turned out to be extremely accurate in most cases. It's just easier to complain about the list before it becomes the proof.
Thanks for posting that.
PG,
I thought that you would get a kick out of that!
Back in those days, "lists" were done though baseball america.
Your PG description was 100% accurate!
I just wanted to show GM, that what he thinks that he has figured out is not uncommon, but also not very reliable as the landscape changes.
I thought that you would get a kick out of that!
Back in those days, "lists" were done though baseball america.
Your PG description was 100% accurate!
I just wanted to show GM, that what he thinks that he has figured out is not uncommon, but also not very reliable as the landscape changes.
TPM,
The thing that not many know is that all those Baseball America lists back then were done by PG for Allan Simpson (then the editor of BA). Truth is, the lists still originate in the same place except now days they can get most of the information via a subscription to pgcrosschecker.
It all starts with the underclass lists that no one else can do. It will once again be interesting to see how many of those underclassmen will appear on the various 2010 lists when those lists start to come out. Lists are easy if someone else is doing the work and identifying the top players. Heck, the list makers don't even have to see the players and for the most part they don't until after those players have been identified.
This is not bragging about expertise, it's about how much work people do. BA has always had "one" person covering high school scouting. We have hundreds of people doing the same thing, and about 40 who do that full time. The big difference is whether you gather information from others or if you get that information first hand by seeing the players. Seeing players is the only way we do it. And, just a little bragging here, it is what we are the very best at and most proud of.
People still complain and sometimes we are wrong. There is no perfection in scouting. These comments will bring some naysayers, but there are no naysayers among the biggest decision makers. Those people actually know the truth!
Many people think that what we do best is run events... Those people are wrong. What we do best, hands down, is identify talented players and let the baseball world know about them! And we do that 365 days a year.
Please forgive me, I will now shut up.
The thing that not many know is that all those Baseball America lists back then were done by PG for Allan Simpson (then the editor of BA). Truth is, the lists still originate in the same place except now days they can get most of the information via a subscription to pgcrosschecker.
It all starts with the underclass lists that no one else can do. It will once again be interesting to see how many of those underclassmen will appear on the various 2010 lists when those lists start to come out. Lists are easy if someone else is doing the work and identifying the top players. Heck, the list makers don't even have to see the players and for the most part they don't until after those players have been identified.
This is not bragging about expertise, it's about how much work people do. BA has always had "one" person covering high school scouting. We have hundreds of people doing the same thing, and about 40 who do that full time. The big difference is whether you gather information from others or if you get that information first hand by seeing the players. Seeing players is the only way we do it. And, just a little bragging here, it is what we are the very best at and most proud of.
People still complain and sometimes we are wrong. There is no perfection in scouting. These comments will bring some naysayers, but there are no naysayers among the biggest decision makers. Those people actually know the truth!
Many people think that what we do best is run events... Those people are wrong. What we do best, hands down, is identify talented players and let the baseball world know about them! And we do that 365 days a year.
Please forgive me, I will now shut up.
PG,
Yup, I knew that what I meant to say was, "back then when you were doing the "ranking lists" for BA".
We followed those lists just like everyone else, I think in HS, son would rank from 25-80 in his HS class.
His junior year he sort of "disappeared" in the top 100, one of the reasons I think because of what I posted above, but before the draft Allan (not sure if he was PGC or BA then or not in 2007) ranked him 81, pretty close to his draft slot. I like Allan and have been following him for years and years. He knows his stuff, that is for sure.
Jerry, you do know for parents that lists are accurate when your player is ranked high, not so accurate when he is not.
I guess we can both shut up now 'cause we both might get in trouble for getting off topic.
Yup, I knew that what I meant to say was, "back then when you were doing the "ranking lists" for BA".
We followed those lists just like everyone else, I think in HS, son would rank from 25-80 in his HS class.
His junior year he sort of "disappeared" in the top 100, one of the reasons I think because of what I posted above, but before the draft Allan (not sure if he was PGC or BA then or not in 2007) ranked him 81, pretty close to his draft slot. I like Allan and have been following him for years and years. He knows his stuff, that is for sure.
Jerry, you do know for parents that lists are accurate when your player is ranked high, not so accurate when he is not.
I guess we can both shut up now 'cause we both might get in trouble for getting off topic.
Allan was with PGC at that time.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Allan was with PGC at that time.
quote:Not sure if many japanese pitchers change their slot, (could their size have something to do with it), but in reality how effective is it after you face the same batter over and over and over, year after year after year? And if those japanese pitchers were so good, why does MLB not have more than they do?
I agree that a pitcher needs to master a delivery, dont get me wrong. I am just saying that if they can do things to deceive the batter without compromising their pitching then by all means they should.
Not to start World War 3 but....Didn't Team Japan beat the USA in the WBC tonight fair and square? Didn't Team South Korea also beat Team Venezuala last night? Who does that leave for bragging rights about where the best baseball players in the world are? Seems like Asia comes to mind eh! Sure, I have the heard that "we didn't really send our best players to the WBC and Japan did". The problem with that is like saying that MLB players really aren't the best players in the world!
I have been saying for years that the Koreans and Japanese have better quality baseball than Americans as of late because they have stepped outside the box and did things their own way. And on the world stage they have once again proven who the best player sin the world are.
I have hit reply 4 times already and this will be my first actual repsonse.
GB,
Buddy I wish you good luck. Japan and Korea are good baseball programs. But this is their world series. This is the big stage for them. They take it a lot more serious than us. The US does not need the bragging rights. Until a korean or Japanese person is in the talks for Hall of Fame, best player in baseball, or several All-Star selections I think you have to be in aggreement that the baseball playing field is still slanted towards North America. Otherwie, why do some of these players come over and fail. Why does Japan accept US players that could not make it in the US. ( They have success over there)
Get rid of the Lob pitch. It will not work at the upper levels. It has success against inferior hitters.
Be open minder to what people are telling you. They are not trying to tell you it is "my way or the highway" every good pitching coach will tell you they have to open minded or they will fail. I am just afraid that by you "stepping outside the box" so much you have forgotten sometimes you have to step back in the box to have success. You have almost blocked or not accepted wha a lot of Really successful people are trying to tell you. Ireally hope I am wrong. But if I am not good Luck. i hope your son has success and I hope you change add a new compenent to pitching. The art of how to master throwing from 4 different arm slots and keeping your kid healthy.
GB,
Buddy I wish you good luck. Japan and Korea are good baseball programs. But this is their world series. This is the big stage for them. They take it a lot more serious than us. The US does not need the bragging rights. Until a korean or Japanese person is in the talks for Hall of Fame, best player in baseball, or several All-Star selections I think you have to be in aggreement that the baseball playing field is still slanted towards North America. Otherwie, why do some of these players come over and fail. Why does Japan accept US players that could not make it in the US. ( They have success over there)
Get rid of the Lob pitch. It will not work at the upper levels. It has success against inferior hitters.
Be open minder to what people are telling you. They are not trying to tell you it is "my way or the highway" every good pitching coach will tell you they have to open minded or they will fail. I am just afraid that by you "stepping outside the box" so much you have forgotten sometimes you have to step back in the box to have success. You have almost blocked or not accepted wha a lot of Really successful people are trying to tell you. Ireally hope I am wrong. But if I am not good Luck. i hope your son has success and I hope you change add a new compenent to pitching. The art of how to master throwing from 4 different arm slots and keeping your kid healthy.
I had a conversation with a long term MLB reliever the other day and he related this story to me. When he was still playing, the team brought in Satchel Page(sp?) to talk to and meet the guys. One thing he brought up was, if your job as a pitcher is to mess up a batters timing, then why the heck are you throwing the same way everytime? Made me think a little bit.
I never said I was going to teach son 4 different slots to master. I said that him having an alternative slot to throw from occasionally increases his tools he has to draw upon. His ability to slow up or speed up his initial delivery (leg lift) also messes up the batters timing.
The WBC and the Olympics are the only way of jduging who is better as a "team". Lets face the truth- for the most part, the best "all-stars" in the majors can't compete on the world stage with either the Koreans or the Japanese. Personally I think that our failure to win it all on the world stage should be telling us that the days of American baseball dominance is over- at least for the short term. Hopefully some of the old tendencies in training young kids are dying out and being replaced by better philosophies. I sure know that I have had to really battle to keep my kid learning properly how to do things. When the other kids go to the batting cages to practice hitting I go out on my front lawn and to the park and shell him to death with live arm. When other kids are taking their kids to reputable pitching coaches i am out on the front lawn getting nailed in the shins over and over with pitches. I am not saying that not going to a good pitching coach is a good thing, I am just saying that it may be over-rated and in some cases damaging to learning.
I have always had the philosophy like that of the talent in Latin America- go out and play, play, play and let the talent develop naturally on its own. I always get asked who I take my son to for pitching lessons. I tell them I take him into my front yard and throw the heck out of that piece of leather- that is his pitching lesson. Truthfully, I just can't afford all the bells and whistles of payed training. I go collect cans to raise money for travel ball. We run all over town looking to save 5 bucks on under-armor.
Maybe my son is just born with a special natural talent or maybe it's because he doesn't fit the typical mold of all the "do's and don'ts" prescribed in those endless little league baseball training videos and camps that local coaches hold.
We may have to re-examine why American MLB players can't compete and win against other nations in the world. I think we may find that our system of training good quality players from little league age on needs some adjustments. Our philosophy on basic fundamental baseball needs a much needed update.
The WBC and the Olympics are the only way of jduging who is better as a "team". Lets face the truth- for the most part, the best "all-stars" in the majors can't compete on the world stage with either the Koreans or the Japanese. Personally I think that our failure to win it all on the world stage should be telling us that the days of American baseball dominance is over- at least for the short term. Hopefully some of the old tendencies in training young kids are dying out and being replaced by better philosophies. I sure know that I have had to really battle to keep my kid learning properly how to do things. When the other kids go to the batting cages to practice hitting I go out on my front lawn and to the park and shell him to death with live arm. When other kids are taking their kids to reputable pitching coaches i am out on the front lawn getting nailed in the shins over and over with pitches. I am not saying that not going to a good pitching coach is a good thing, I am just saying that it may be over-rated and in some cases damaging to learning.
I have always had the philosophy like that of the talent in Latin America- go out and play, play, play and let the talent develop naturally on its own. I always get asked who I take my son to for pitching lessons. I tell them I take him into my front yard and throw the heck out of that piece of leather- that is his pitching lesson. Truthfully, I just can't afford all the bells and whistles of payed training. I go collect cans to raise money for travel ball. We run all over town looking to save 5 bucks on under-armor.
Maybe my son is just born with a special natural talent or maybe it's because he doesn't fit the typical mold of all the "do's and don'ts" prescribed in those endless little league baseball training videos and camps that local coaches hold.
We may have to re-examine why American MLB players can't compete and win against other nations in the world. I think we may find that our system of training good quality players from little league age on needs some adjustments. Our philosophy on basic fundamental baseball needs a much needed update.
Our philosophy on basic fundamental baseball needs a much needed update.
we invented the fundamentals of baseball. the world seems to copy that.
maybe you mean training?
we invented the fundamentals of baseball. the world seems to copy that.
maybe you mean training?
quote:Originally posted by Doughnutman:
I had a conversation with a long term MLB reliever the other day and he related this story to me. When he was still playing, the team brought in Satchel Page(sp?) to talk to and meet the guys. One thing he brought up was, if your job as a pitcher is to mess up a batters timing, then why the heck are you throwing the same way everytime? Made me think a little bit.
You mess up their timing with a variety of pitches (also using different grips) not with changes in arm slots. Deception is hiding the ball well before it leaves the hand. 13 year olds can drop their slots because other 13 year olds have no clue what to look for.
