Fun in Sun Topic Closed...but never to be forgotten

Who closed the thread? Why was it closed?

Itsrosy...I'm not "holier than thou". You don't know me and don't act as if you do.

I believe in playing the game the "right" way.

If you are a coach and are a goof, whatever you dish out to my kids, you will suffer the same fate times 2!

If a shortstop hit/slapped a player on his head with the ball in the glove for no apparent reason, that shortstop would be looking for his teeth in the batter's box the next time he stepped into it to hit.

Todd Fine wasn't criticized, it was the coach who used the f-word on everyone.

Best way to handle coaches and teams that leave tournaments early: Don't let them enter the tournament the next year. If you are the organizer and permit that to happen: SHAME ON YOU. What about the rest of the teams that paid to play? You didn't "discount" their entry fee, Mr. Organizer, knowing that a couple of teams would be leaving the tournament before the Championship rounds? I think NOT.

Smart coaches should boycott such tournaments when they learn that this is happening.

quote:

Originally posted by BeenthereIL:
Who closed the thread? Why was it closed?

Itsrosy...I'm not "holier than thou". You don't know me and don't act as if you do.

I believe in playing the game the "right" way.

If you are a coach and are a goof, whatever you dish out to my kids, you will suffer the same fate times 2!

If a shortstop hit/slapped a player on his head with the ball in the glove for no apparent reason, that shortstop would be looking for his teeth in the batter's box the next time he stepped into it to hit.

Todd Fine wasn't criticized, it was the coach who used the f-word on everyone.

Best way to handle coaches and teams that leave tournaments early: Don't let them enter the tournament the next year. If you are the organizer and permit that to happen: SHAME ON YOU. What about the rest of the teams that paid to play? You didn't "discount" their entry fee, Mr. Organizer, knowing that a couple of teams would be leaving the tournament before the Championship rounds? I think NOT.

Smart coaches should boycott such tournaments when they learn that this is happening.

The tournament director was assured by Top Tier prior to getting into the tourney there would be no problems from their team and they would play the entire tourney.....I tried to send their money back over the phone when they begin wanting the championship game time changed.....They assured me they would stay in...not to send their full entry fee back...
needless to say their promise was not fulfilled...
Any team in the future as previously stated that is going to perfect game event that weekend will not be allowed to enter tourney ..a separate tourney will be available that those teams can enter if they desire..
We were as shocked as the recruiters when they all informed us on Saturday night they were leaving to go to Atlanta...No one knew before then...ALL TEAMS PAID THE SAME AND NO DISCOUNTS WERE GIVEN....

BeenthereIL,

What a terrible statement for an adult and former coach to make:

"If a shortstop hit/slapped a player on his head with the ball in the glove for no apparent reason, that shortstop would be looking for his teeth in the batter's box the next time he stepped into it to hit."

I don't mean to add fuel to the fire here, but I just could not let your statement pass without stating my strong objections to that type of attitude being posted here, especially by an "Old Timer".

Some questions...

Why would any tournament director schedule a tourney to go opposite PG in East Cobb?

How can you compare the 2 tournaments? (The 2% comment by woodly is flat out ridiculous.)Just 1 example...OPRF's #1 national HS recruiting class in 05 sent only 1 player to a "local school." That player has since transferred to the Big 12. 5 of 5 is 100%...AWAY from the midwest. Woodly does have a good point regarding the scouting system and player's eyeing the draft but the vast majority of these summer player's are headed to D1 and as another example Mike Bowden went 1st round despite his playing for TT and the Indiana Yankees in all the out of town venue's. Simply put, either schedule AROUND PG or suffer a similar fate each and every year.

Most player's and parents recognonize the tremendous advantages of playing in a top program. That chance at an SEC/ACC/Big 12/Conference USA, etc. type of scholarship will alway's have the very best teams heading to East Cobb and Jupiter.

Finally, to say that 1 region of coaches cares MORE about the player than another region is absurd. Coaching job security, school budgets and facilities are reasons why the TOP programs are more likely to actually care and nurture the individual player.

SOX, while I agree with what you r saying, I was at this last tourney and I witnessed what Van Horn is trying to say. He is stating that most of the local D1 colleges are "finally" starting to realize that they had better start paying attention to OUR boys so that they don't go away and rot on the end of the bench in those "bigger" schools. They are starting to see we do have some great players in this area and they have gone to the administrations and asked for more travel (altough it be local) to get to more of these type tournies to POSSIBLY keep these kids here, in the state. I think throwing out percentages, as a whole, is not the right thing to do but, your example of OP-RF is not the norm, it is an abirition?. That was not the standard. When you start to see the head coaches at these tournies, you have to beleive they are taking notice. that is my take on it. And I did hear it from a few of them myself. It's about time. If we (white sox) 1 example have kids from all over as do most programs, why not take a core of those kids and build a team for a year down the road? Say Illinois could get 8 core players from one team, or TT or Orioles, whatever, they would do themselves good. It shows that our kids don't have to leave to go to good programs. If you consider Georgia, FSU, N C and such "better" programs. If we would just concentrate on Illinois boys and start to keep a core at certain schools, they could build chemistry and really be solid very shortly. Our disadvantage is our weather...not our ability.

Good comment Soxnole! The Midwest is not very "user friendly" when it comes to baseball. Little League is done before school gets out, so when the weather gets good most of our young ones aren't playing. Until recently, it was impossible to get a Park District field in our town if you had a travel team. (You still have to know someone.) It is great they are trying to catch up around here but when summer high school only plays 4 games a week, how are kids going to be seen at these weekend tournaments if their coaches don't let them play on travel teams. The Midwest has a messed up system that does less to develop players than down South- rather obvious. Maybe that is why so many of these Midwest colleges go South to watch.

quote:

Originally posted by soxnole:
Some questions...

Why would any tournament director schedule a tourney to go opposite PG in East Cobb?

How can you compare the 2 tournaments? (The 2% comment by woodly is flat out ridiculous.)Just 1 example...OPRF's #1 national HS recruiting
class in 05 sent only 1 player to a "local school." That player has since transferred to the Big 12. 5 of 5 is 100%...AWAY from the midwest. Woodly does have a good point regarding the scouting system and player's eyeing the draft but the vast majority of these summer player's are headed to D1 and as another example Mike Bowden went 1st round despite his playing for TT and the Indiana Yankees in all the out of town venue's. Simply put, either schedule AROUND PG or suffer a similar fate each and every year.

Most player's and parents recognonize the tremendous advantages of playing in a top program. That chance at an SEC/ACC/Big 12/Conference USA, etc. type of scholarship will alway's have the very best teams heading to East Cobb and Jupiter.

Finally, to say that 1 region of coaches cares MORE about the player than another region is absurd. Coaching job security, school budgets and facilities are reasons why the TOP programs are more likely to actually care and nurture the individual player.

VERY SIMPLE- 3 OUT OF 32 TEAMS WENT TO pERFECT GAME- THAT LEAVES 29 TEAMS THAT CAME TO THE TOURNEY THAT WEEK END...AND WE HAD A WAITING LIST OF 6 TEAMS....
PERFECT GAME ISN'T FOR EVERY TEAM...THE TOURNEY WILL BE FINE WITHOUT THOSE TEAMS IF THEY CHOOSE TO GO TO GEORGIA WHICH IS GREAT IF THEY CAN AFFORD IT.....
THERE ARE 34 TEAMS IN THE ILLINOIS STATE ONE THIS WEEKEND AND THERE IS ANOTHER PERFECT GAME EVENT GOING ON .....
THE 2% COMMENT IS BASED ON ALL KIDS PLAYING IN TRAVEL BALL THIS SUMMER ...IT WOULD BE KIND OF NICE FOR SOMEONE TO TAKE THE TIME TO FIND OUT WHERE ALL OF THOSE KIDS GO WHEN THEY LEAVE HIGH SCHOOL? i AGREE that most kids want to go to Arizona, Florida, Texas, etc. because the majority of the pro players come from those areas....but who can tell me actually how many Illinois players go to college out of the Midwest and actually play college baseball? I have no idea...so i shouldn't make that assumption but looking over the PBR report of early signings i sure don't see alot leaving the Midwest....

i would schedule an event any day of the week which conflicts with a perfect game event...they are not competititon for me....Catering to the top teams all the time leaves a company out of business....Perfect Game is supposably what its title says.."Perfect".....so those who can afford their product....I am all for it.... For those who cannot afford their product...we will be there for them..

also, PG USSA Caba weren't built overnight and Van Horn is trying to compete with them. It is in its infancy and will take a year or two to build and then maybe just maybe they will come here to play....who knows? Crazier things have happened.

this might be a dupe of previous report cause im on a slow computer....PG USSA CABA weren't built overnight. Van Horn is building something good here and maybe someday East Cobb will come here to play....crazier things have happened

Who is the TT coach that is being critized for his behaviour at the Fun in The Sun tournament? Is it Playhard?

Soxnole,

Your point is right on. I think it is great that so many local teams can get together and play a tournament right here in Illinois. But I disagree with Woodly when he intimates that 29 teams stayed home, were somehow viewed as being more loyal to the scouts and recruiters and that the 3 baddies went on to East Cobb. Who do you think the 3 teams that "defected" are playing in front of, the Little Sisters of the Poor?

These teams all have different agendas for their players and if you play a local or regional schedule, that's your choice. If you choose to have a program that pushes the boundaries by competiting against some of the best competition in the country at an event like the WWBA 18U World Series, that is also a choice.

MnMom, Your steady hand is welcome in this tiring dialogue. Maybe you'll have to begin dispensing Prozac to some overzealous posters.

Where Woody is correct, is that if you're going to enter a tournament, then enter it and play until you're eliminated. If you can't make that committment, then stay home and just schedule some games. It's a scheduling nightmare to have teams not show up and or leave 2/3's of the way through the tourament or for that manner not at all.

Sometimes your agenda may be good for your team but not in the best interest of the other teams participating in the tournament.

I have a question. Was there a team at the tournament who was effected by TT - IL Orioles - ect leaving the tournament? Were teams sent home before the playoffs started that would have been able to play? It seems t5o me that teams were just moved up in the seedings. There were no forfits on Sunday, correct?

From what I heard, one team wanted to play just one game on Sunday and then leave. They were told that to could not do this. The other team dropped after Saturday and another team moved up in bracket play as stated.

My point is more from the stand point of running a tournament, teams leaving and forfieting only cause problems for the person running the tournament. If you can't make the commitment to play in the whole tournament, then just don't enter the tournament and schedule some games that weekend to stay sharp for the next tournament.

I think it's pretty obvious that these things cause issues and they do affect teams. Otherwise this topic wouldn't be getting so much attention.

'Gamer' is right! But, if those teams wanted to use that venue as a warm-up for the PG tournament, so be it!!!! I don't agree with it either. You don't let them in again next year, or at all later on.

As far as teams/players leaving the area to play out-of-state, so what!!! Most DI universities recruit from their own local area. Just go to any university website and checkout their rosters. Budgets are getting tighter, fuel costs, etc., are keeping thoses coaches closer to home. Sure there are hundreds of coaches representing dozens and dozens of universities, not to mention the pro scouts, that attend these huge tournaments. But do those players from our area really stand a serious chance of being recruited on one of those top DI schools? It might happen, but remember, it's a numbers game. They need full rosters, a "taxi squad" so to speak, to keep the stud players sharp. Are your sons the stud, or are they a part of the taxi squad?

I'm not trying to slam anyones ambition. Lord knows my son wanted to play DI ball as well. It didn't happen. He will play DIII, AND he received a whole bunch of academic money!!!!! What did your sons get? What were you promised? What do you think is really going to happen? Please, again, I'm not trying to slam anyone about for their decisions. I'm glad that many of our kids are staying 'home' in Illinois.

Just remember that out of the thousands and thousands of high school players, a small percentage of our kids get to play in a top DI program, and about 1% of the total number of kids nationwide get to become a pro player. The ones that need to be at a top national venue, well, good luck, good hunting, and good spending!!!!

If anyone has a problem with the way Top Tier plays then just go ahead and ask any present or past player that has spent a summer with them too see how they feel about the organization. I can almost guarentee you they will not have anything bad to say.

About the way the game is played..whether you'd like to admit it or not, bean balls are a part of the game, whether it is on accident or on purpose it still is. when your player gets hit on purpose then you have to protect him. im not saying throw at anyones head but as a player you know that you cant let teams walk on you like that..you have to back up your friends.

OK, I have had enough of this "Pro" Bean Ball BS!

If your going to think over a grey situation, my experience is to use the "Worse Case Scenario". So this is the scenario I propose to Beenthere, IndiansOF29, and anyone else who's "Pro Bean Ball".

Let's say there's an incident on the field and your son is up next. The pitcher is instructed to hit your son in the back (#'s), just like it's taught. The ball get away and your son freezes and he gets hit in the face. He's going to be OK but no more baseball.

How would you feel now? How do you think he would feel? Well it can happen!

The bottomline this is amatuer baseball, not pro ball! There's a huge difference!

To Beenthere and IndiansOF29 and anyone else who thinks it's OK to throw at someoene. (I don't mean to pick on you guys and I know you both as good baseball guys.) But's there's other ways to resolve situations besides throwing at someone.

quote:

BeenthereIL,

What a terrible statement for an adult and former coach to make:

"If a shortstop hit/slapped a player on his head with the ball in the glove for no apparent reason, that shortstop would be looking for his teeth in the batter's box the next time he stepped into it to hit."

I don't mean to add fuel to the fire here, but I just could not let your statement pass without stating my strong objections to that type of attitude being posted here, especially by an "Old Timer".

----
MN...Understand your position as a mom and as a parent. I make no pretense about being politically correct at any time. Take my comments in the context of a "shortstop slapping the kid in the head with the ball in his glove for no reason"...Don't have to be a professional player to protect your player (s).

Gamer...My older son was hit in the face by a pitcher during a Cape Cod League game many years ago and this incident was referenced in a book about the Cape that was published. No problem. The pitcher lost control. Nothing followed. Son was fine.

NEVER have been a proponent of hitting anyone, but I will not ever permit my kids (any kids that I coach) to get hit or be the victims of a coach with an "attitude". I'd pull the kids off the field and forfeit a game and would NEVER play the team again until other coaches were involved with the program.

MN...Understand your position as a mother and moderator of this site. I disagree based on my age (much older than you are) and experience at the high school, travel ball and professional level.

Take my comments in the context of a kid (shortstop) slapping a baserunner in the head with the ball in the glove--for no reason.

What would you do?

Gamer...I don't condone hitting anyone. My older son, Paul, was hit in the face during a Cape Cod League game years ago and he's fine now. There was no need for retaliation.

You never try to hit someone in the head or back.

In the context of what was going on during the tournament, simple enough: forfeit the game and never play that team coached by the "problem" coach again.

Been, you have a pm.

D...

Give me a call tonight after 8:30 p.m., at 815-469-4520.

jp

Woodly

Rules are Rules.

If you don't want this (leaving early) to happen again, then create an iron clad agreement that the penalized team will not be allowed to participate the following year.

Speaking as a travel coach and Dad for more than 15 years on various age group circuits...virtually all of the top teams consider leaving early if the next venue holds more promise.

sweaty....East Cobb play's a daunting schedule, at the 10-16 levels they travel far and wide.

drop 3rd....EXACTLY.

Sorry about the 2 posts...My computer was going haywire.

Beenthere, sorry if I misunderstood your response but there's a lot of kids that read this and I don't want them to think it OK to bean or hit someone. I'm happy to hear you feel otherwise. But you have to admit the line about the teeth in the batters box had me thinking otherwise!

Soxnole, I understand that the next venue may hold more promise but hopefully these teams do understand the problems caused by leaving early/forfieting/not showing up at all. It's not too hard to schedule games for the summer or a particular weekend.

In life you are only as good as your word and if you say your going to be there then you should!

I have been sentenced to 2 weeks in Ga for my mistake....

Been out of the loop for a bit. If we caused any problems for any teams this last weekend, I apologize. Next year, I assure you we will not have the same problem.

Mike does the kids a good thing with his tournaments. He is a good baseball man and is in this stuff for the right reasons. I have got to know him and his life is this game and the kids he works for.

As far as our scheduling conflict, I, when I set it up,did not know they would conflict, I thought we had a travel day. For that I have been sentenced to much heat in Ga.

As far as PG goes, it may not be for all people, but I do know their National Tournament that we have and are playing in is something we will do every year. There are a few things I look for in a Tournament. Equal and tough competition, quality umpiring, and quality fields. We have beat teams from California, Texas, Kentucky, Ga, North Carolina, South Carolina, and when I see my players having fun and making memories that will always be there, it makes it worth my time.

As far as posters talking about geographical regions for our guys to play in. I know and have relationships with many of the States coaches. A part of my job as a Summer coach is to establish those relationships. I also beleive that every kid is different. Going away to another region isnt right for everyone. But at the same time if I have a kid who has ambitions or goals or dreams of playing at a LSU, or FSU, or ASU,or ND, I will take care of that kid also. I also have kids who fell to DIII or II, but that doent change the fact that I worked for them too. The fact that I have relationships with schools South will not effect my guys in a negitive way. Those kids effected are few and very special players. I spend way too much time and money to have people try to tell me what is best for my players and my club. I do this for two reasons... One- for the kids! Two- I love the game!
I am all for getting our players involved with our area schools and if people only knew how much time I spend talking to schools in our area, maybe they wouldnt spurt off so quick.
I take offense to some who think they know.

I look forward to seeing all at ISU this weekend.

For someone to compare what Mike is doing and what PG does is almost to over the top to respond to. Man, I leave for two weeks and all heck breaks out... Sweaty, good luck to Danny,you know how I feel about his ability.

Smokey,
Away from this topic, Brandon leaves tomorrow for the Cape...

Duece, thanks for the response.

Good Luck to Brandon out at the Cape!

OK, just a couple of comments:

1. Quote by deucedoc "I also have kids who fell to DIII or DII" ... what in the heck does that mean? They failed? DII or DIII baseball is not a death sentence people... players get drafted out of both every year and there's plenty of great players who play at that level out of academic choice or necessity - less games and less travel leaves more time for school... which is the REAL reason why you're in college to begin with.

2. Teams leaving tournaments stinks for the obvious mess it causes at the end, but how about if you're one of the teams that got eliminated by one of those teams who then couldn't be bothered to stick around and finish it out? We've had that happen to us and seen whole tournaments skewed as a result - teams that won less games than anyone in your pool end up in the championship round by default - that stinks, too.

3."Why would anyone schedule opposite a PG event?" You're kidding, right? How about the literally HUNDREDS of players who DON'T attend.. should they just sit home all weekend and pay homage to those who do? That's the elitist attitude that creates the problems that people are talking about in relation to Top Tier... "we're all that matters".

4. Why do travel teams always think it's impressive to say "we beat teams from State A, B, C and D?" Who could possibly know how good those particular teams were, regardless of what STATE they come from unless you were there to see them play? Is a PG event by invitation only or can any team that ponies up the cash attend?

5. And lastly, why was the original topic closed? Is it against the rules to be critical of Top Tier on this site? There were people there who saw what they saw and wanted to give their opinion of the situation - it's not like people were just speculating or gossiping. Isn't it important for people to hear both sides of the Top Tier story? Great teams, great coaching, great players - that we already know. But the other side is what might make a team a good or bad experience for some kids and families.

"5. And lastly, why was the original topic closed?"

Most often, threads are closed because one or more moderators received complaints about the thread getting too personal, or enough negative comments being made that it is trending toward bashing, etc. I think that was the concern that led to closing of this thread. That doesn't mean it was censored; posts were not removed and this new thread was allowed to develop. But many moderators have observed from experience that when a thread gets to the point where it is objectionable to several members, closing that "chapter" and allowing a new one to open tends to give tempers a chance to cool off, or perhaps cause a few members to stop and think while they are posting.

"Is it against the rules to be critical of (any organization) on this site? ... ... Isn't it important for people to hear both sides of the (any organization) story?"

No, it's definitely not against the rules to be critical of an organization or event on this site. And Yes, it is useful for members to share their experiences and observations about events and organizations, even when they are sharing a negative opinion. But there are times when moderators may step in to try to keep this reasonable sharing of information from escalating into bashing individuals or organizations. It is the decent thing to do, plus it cuts down on the number of lawsuit threats received by the owner of this not-for-pay, not-for-profit site. (And the lawsuit comment is no joke.)

Julie

This was a good tournament.Alot of this should have been stopped by the umpires.This bean ball game should have been stopped.Bottom line this is a game for the Young men not for a coaches,But for the young men playing.It's a real shame that a good tournament is not talked about for the good play of the players,But the antics of some coaches.We played some good teams and had fun.I have to say all the teams we played were very respectable.Even sweaty was on good behavior.Let talk about the good baseball games

Thanks for the response Julie - I guess I didn't see it getting too personal, but maybe because I wasn't the one being talked about! Maybe it will be a lesson for all of us, that when you misbehave in public, it may be discussed publicly.

Thanks for all you do to make this a great source of information for all of us -

i was only on good behavior because Brownlee was around. just kidding, i've matured over the years and I realized that this is a great game to sit and watch. these athletes are so graceful(most of the time). some coaches are humorous to watch. most teach the game as it goes on. it is a game, plain and simple, a game of very skilled people. if a coach goes ape , it turns into some sort of cicus. let the young men play and whatever happens as a result of it, oh well....tomorrow you will get up and live another day. it aint cancer or some other life altering game....move on and learn from it. for gosh sakes , cant we all just say van horn is trying to do the right thing for these kids and close this dang thing already....enough bad blood with TT. we all know 99.9% of the time they are the "one" to beat. oh that should start a new topic."the one to beat" who says they are the one to beat, you don't know squat sweaty....

My3sons.....

1) A very legit point I made was obviously misconstrued. IF...a tournament director WANTS the TOP TEAMS to attend (and stay)....DON'T schedule opposite PG in East Cobb or Jupiter.

2) Team's leaving tournament's happens all the time. That is not going to change unless it is made clear that the team leaving won't be invited back. That becomes a rock and a hard place decision because everyone wants the top teams to participate...they help fill up the tourney!

3)Teams can be particularly proud of beating a top "circuit" team. To name a few, that would include the Ohio Warhawks, Midlands, East Cobb, Team Florida USA and about 20-25 others in any given year. It's no different than a northern D1 team knocking off Texas or North Carolina. etc.

LET IT REST

gamer

i understand completely where you are coming from. im sure if i had a son and he was in that situation i wouldnt want to see him get hit either. it is just my personal opinion that beanballs are a part of the game..and that is ok if we disagree, everyone is entitled to their own opinions..that's why we have this great board.

Soxnole - I really think this is an important point... who determines who the TOP teams are? Are you saying no top teams stayed to fulfill their commitment to the tournament?

I think that's one of the biggest issues underlying all of this - wouldn't it be great if we really had a playoff system to determine which teams really WERE the top teams in every state, region and finally the nation? Like the CWS for club or travel teams. It seems under the current system there are enough World Series, Ultimate World Series and Penultimate World Series championship trophies for every team out there.

My3sons...FYI.

The top programs year in and year out generally stay the same with a few additions each year.

At the 17 and 18 year old level's there are about 30-40 teams that play "the circuit"..East Cobb, Jupiter, Beast of the East and many many more tournaments.

Add the Florida Bombers, South Carolina Diamond Kings and the Florida Renegades to the previous mentioned. Top Tier is certainly one. The SI Bullets and Indiana Yankees can be included as often as not. The Illinois Orioles have coaching 2nd to none, and so on.

The very best teams are virtually all attending East Cobb and Jupiter's PG events. These 2 tournaments have a very high percentage of the nations best teams. They certainly attract more D1 and MLB scouts than any other except for the MLB sponsored East Coast showcase and the Area Code games.

I think it would be tough to say that the teams that finish in the top 10 in these tournaments aren't either the best or darn close to it.

That makes good sense soxnole.

Well.....just spent two days getting ready for the next one....Top Collegiate Prospects Tourney in Bloomington-Normal....
All teams have been contacted and assure me that they will be there and stay for the completion of the tourney..
but....it is suppose to be HOT,HOT, HOT, AND HOTTER ALL WEEKEND...anticipating no problems but you know what hot weather does.
any of you come down there...I have money in my pocket this time...
good discussions on the web and i always learn something by reading them...most of all we got you talking about THE FUN IN THE SUN TOURNEY.....that was our purpose...!!!!

32 teams at siu-logan, 34 at Bloomington, and then back to Kankakee for 31 teams of 17 and 16 year olds....what a heck of a way to get to see good baseball...
have fun and hopefully sweaty will make sure i am not thirsty in Bloomington