Gaining Ground or Replacing ?

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Originally posted by catamount36:

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the big difference in the way a catcher should throw is simply in his arm arc it should be flat and back not down around and back.

Exactly! That is the first time I have heard another catching instructor state that. I have said that for years.

Hey Linear,

This was a question, originally, to see what UPDATED COACHES are teaching there players. This is not a forum question for you to critique bits and pieces of things not related to the original thoughts. My problem is some coaches only teach what they were taught 20 years ago and do not even try to improve there coaching skills. I'm sick of paying money for coaches who do clinics and to be honest STINK.
I went to a hitting clinic where I felt embarassed for the coach and his players because they were all clueless. A few of these posts actually understand what I'm trying to
get answered.

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Originally posted by COACHBLU25:
My problem is some coaches only teach what they were taught 20 years ago and do not even try to improve there coaching skills. I'm sick of paying money for coaches who do clinics and to be honest STINK.

Replace "some" with "most" and I agree 100%. We have a new indoor facility opening nearby next week...The coaching "advisory staff" list is full of guys with great bio's. I hoping they have "an idea".

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Originally posted by COACHBLU25:
Hey Linear,

This was a question, originally, to see what UPDATED COACHES are teaching there players. This is not a forum question for you to critique bits and pieces of things not related to the original thoughts. My problem is some coaches only teach what they were taught 20 years ago and do not even try to improve there coaching skills. I'm sick of paying money for coaches who do clinics and to be honest STINK.
I went to a hitting clinic where I felt embarassed for the coach and his players because they were all clueless. A few of these posts actually understand what I'm trying to
get answered.

Hey, no problem. If you're looking for confirmation of your beliefs you should have said so.

Most here like to explore the truth.

Is the silence on my 2B question a statement of "oh, that's what he means?" Or just tired of the quest for truth.

I'm looking for the best way to teach catchers. Yes, I believe in gaining ground
but many others replace. I guess I'm back at square one. Where 2B came in I'm not sure but the distance is less and most 2b have weaker arms than catchers so whats the point. Give me some positive feedback not your negative bull
or trying to be a know it all like many of the coaches I speak with. Like Troy99 said, thats
most of the coaches we come in contact with.
Keep your answers positive Linear because you probally can ad some advice to this forum. PS If I was tired of the quest for the truth I wouldn't be here.

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Originally posted by COACHBLU25:
...but the distance is less and most 2b have weaker arms than catchers so whats the point.

Not talking about the distance. Not talking about a players arm strength. I'm talking about the technique.

Sounds to me like the "technique" may be in the way of your beliefs.

CoachBlu25,
I am the biggest proponent of core "technique" in this forum along with Linear (from the way it sounds). That being said, the body has one way to move in order to be most efficient. Gaining ground towards 2B will assist the body in getting the ball to 2B quicker due to the momentum and energy being sent in the direction of the throw. If you simply stay in one spot and rotate, in theory your momentum/energy simply stays on a static axis and then your body works against you. A small jab step or getting the heel to turn to the pitcher will enable you to maximize arm strength, give you the cleanest throw (Less fade), and be the least taxing on the shoulder. I hope that helps answer your question.

Thank You and I agree with the momentum going in the direction of the throw. I don't agree with the right foot replacing the left because the momentum is going in 2 directions. I will continue teaching this way. I have some players I trained in the past year that are being taught the former along with some different front arm angles. They've contacted me and I posted on this forum to see what coaches feel is best. Thanks to everyone who responded pro or con, including Linear.

Linear,

Could you explain how you can receive and throw to 2B... the inside pitch to a RHH or outside to LHH... without moving your right foot?Perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean.


Are there any video clips that show that technique being used on the glove side of the catcher? I don't think I've ever seen that technique used in that situation. If we are going to view all the good ML hitters in order to see what makes them so good (which I agree with)... wouldn't the same thing hold true for viewing the good ML catchers to see how they are throwing out runners?

If you are correct... we can put less emphasis on one of the main ingredients of a successful catcher... That being "quick feet"!

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Originally posted by Coach A:
CoachBlu25,
I am the biggest proponent of core "technique" in this forum along with Linear (from the way it sounds). That being said, the body has one way to move in order to be most efficient. Gaining ground towards 2B will assist the body in getting the ball to 2B quicker due to the momentum and energy being sent in the direction of the throw. If you simply stay in one spot and rotate, in theory your momentum/energy simply stays on a static axis and then your body works against you. A small jab step or getting the heel to turn to the pitcher will enable you to maximize arm strength, give you the cleanest throw (Less fade), and be the least taxing on the shoulder. I hope that helps answer your question.

With all due respect.......hogwash.

You don't understand core rotation.

Explain to me how good ss's can make the throw from the hole. There is absolutely no linear momentum to help him. In fact his momentum is going the opposite direction.

Don't give me footwork bs. It comes from the hips.

How do ss/2B turn the dp? Very efficient core rotation. Very effective load/unload. Timely load/unload. Very effective "sudden change of direction" of the hips. Torsion bar type rotation with tremendous power.

Better yet, how do pitchers slide step? They don't move their post foot and they still throw 90+ mph. And the good ones are very quick to the plate.

PG

So you've never played burn out?

What does a 2B do when his foot is already planted on the base, and the throw from 3B or ss is to his left but within reach?

What is so hard to see?

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Originally posted by PGStaff:
Linear,

Could you explain how you can receive and throw to 2B... the inside pitch to a RHH or outside to LHH... without moving your right foot?Perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean.

My 08 catcher had the same question when we talked about this last night... didn't think it made sense to pull all the way across the body ...he's been taught to adjust his foot-work to pitch location. Very close to Linear's description on the outside (to RH) pitch, but not otherwise. Basically, the feet come up along the path of the ball. He does not gain ground. He's been taught to use the hips rather than momentum but I'm sure he would not pass Linear's test on this, yet

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Originally posted by Linear:
With all due respect.......hogwash.

You don't understand core rotation.

Explain to me how good ss's can make the throw from the hole. There is absolutely no linear momentum to help him. In fact his momentum is going the opposite direction.

Don't give me footwork bs. It comes from the hips.

How do ss/2B turn the dp? Very efficient core rotation. Very effective load/unload. Timely load/unload. Very effective "sudden change of direction" of the hips. Torsion bar type rotation with tremendous power.

Better yet, how do pitchers slide step? I believe their rt foot stays planted and they still throw 90+ mph. And the good ones are very quick to the plate.

Point #1:
A ball hit into the hole would simulate a ball being thrown to the outside (RH) in which I said the plant and throw is accurate due to the body loading itself.
You won't see a SS take a ball right at them or to their left "plant and throw". Why is this? Simply stated, when the ball is to the throwing side, it takes too long to move your feet, remain balanced, and gain momentum toward a target, thus the core "load/unload" takes place more efficiently. Anything else warrants quick precise footwork.

Point #2:
All upper level SS/2B will use footwork towards 1B when the throw or baserunner allow. If a runner is baring down on them, or throw is wide to the LF side of bag, again the "load/unload" action takes over. If you watch, they will move their feet. I haven't met a middle infielder that tells me footwork isn't important in a DP turn.

Point #3:
A pitcher slide stepping still has body weight and momentum moving forward towards the plate. I have yet to see a pitcher slide step and leave their back foot attached to the rubber. That makes no sense. Again, no disrespect, but if you can prove to me that any high level pitcher only pivots on their back foot without following through, I will retract my statement with an apology.

Point #4: (I promise...last one)
Every professional ball player I have ever played burn out with moves their feet. The thing is that the feet are moving prior to catching the ball (as I suggested in another thread). Anticipation of the catch sets the body up early enough to move the feet and throw it quickly and efficiently.

Footwork will always be a huge factor in catching, inf, outfield, hitting, pitching, etc.

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Originally posted by Coach A:
Point #1:
A ball hit into the hole would simulate a ball being thrown to the outside (RH) in which I said the plant and throw is accurate due to the body loading itself.

Do you change the subject because your point is weak? The "specific" subject of the above post is in response to your claim of the need for linear momentum. My example was the effectiveness of a ss's throw from the hole, with not just NO momentum but in fact negative momentum. And the good ones make good throws from this negative momentum position. Clearly shows their is no need for linear momentum.

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Point #2:
All upper level SS/2B will use footwork towards 1B when the throw or baserunner allow. If a runner is baring down on them, or throw is wide to the LF side of bag, again the "load/unload" action takes over. If you watch, they will move their feet. I haven't met a middle infielder that tells me footwork isn't important in a DP turn.

No they don't always move their feet. They use mulitple techniques. But, when they have to be their quickest, with no fear of the barring runner, and when they get to the bag "on time" the right foot plants at the base, they receive and throw. It is the most quickest turn.

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Point #3:
A pitcher slide stepping still has body weight and momentum moving forward towards the plate. I have yet to see a pitcher slide step and leave their back foot attached to the rubber. That makes no sense. Again, no disrespect, but if you can prove to me that any high level pitcher only pivots on their back foot without following through, I will retract my statement with an apology.

Please.....What does this statement have to do with? The only thing it can have to do with is your lack of a quality response. Where did I say there was no follow through involved with a catchers throw? Where did I say a catcher leaves his right foot on the ground after throwing. Where did I claim a pitcher leaves his post foot in contact with the rubber.

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Point #4: (I promise...last one)
...The thing is that the feet are moving prior to catching the ball (as I suggested in another thread). Anticipation of the catch sets the body up early enough to move the feet and throw it quickly and efficiently.

Exactly....Feet have moved "prior to catching the ball". Which means......right foot is planted while catching and throwing. EXACTLY my point. The key is not the footwork. The footwork is already done. A catcher receiving pitches from a pitcher 95% of the time, already has the feet in the position needed. The key is the load/unload of the hips. The key is "how do you create momentum without moving your feet. How do you create momentum that is not linear? How you do THAT is the key. Not the footwork.............And it is very easily done. And it is not linear. Linear, while creating momentum is slow developing. Too slow. Whatever advantage your player gets from linear momentum is offset by the time it takes to develop it. Fact. Fifteen minutes with your linear catcher and I can teach him how to develop momentum in another fashion. Will take him longer to perfect it. But he can "get the concept" and agree to it's value in 15 minutes.

Coach A,

Very good post!

Linear,

Burn out! Man, does that bring back memories. Don’t know what it has to do with a catchers pop time, but thanks for the memories.

By the way, are there some standard rules for burn out? We never hurried the throws, just tried to knock the other guys glove off.

When I think burn out, I remember John Yanda, he was an older kid on my block that had a very strong arm that he would use to absolutely punish me. We had some serious games of burn out! Fist fight would have been much less pain.

Guess these days, if kids did that everyone would worry about TJ surgery because I guarantee that we threw the baseball just as hard as we possibly could (didn’t need a radar gun) for a long time.

Didn’t know there was such a thing as mechanics. However your body told you, you could throw the hardest is exactly what you did. Bob Feller did it that way, too. He didn't believe in taking it easy behind the barn.

Nobody, ever needed surgery, but many developed a very strong arm. Hell, maybe a bunch of us would have had TJ surgery if it existed back then. The old days provide great memories about just how stupid we were. Or were we?

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Originally posted by PGStaff:
Coach A,

Very good post!

Simply unbelievable to me. The post is full of holes. And, in order not to be deemed too harsh....with all due respect.....in the nicest way I can say it in my current "shocked amazement".....because I do like you......what do you do for a living?

Linear,
Yes, I thought he made some very good points.

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Exactly....Feet have moved "prior to catching the ball". Which means......right foot is planted while catching and throwing. EXACTLY my point. The key is not the footwork. The footwork is already done. A catcher receiving pitches from a pitcher 95% of the time, already has the feet in the position needed. The key is the load/unload of the hips. The key is "how do you create momentum without moving your feet. How you do THAT is the key. Not the footwork.............And it is very easily done. And it is not linear. Linear, while creating momentum is slow developing. Too slow. Whatever advantage your player gets from linear momentum is offset by the time it takes to develop it. Fact. Fifteen minutes with your linear catcher and I can teach him how to develop momentum in another fashion. Will take him longer to perfect it. But he can "get the concept" and agree to it's value in 15 minutes.

This makes sense. This is good. This I can not argue with (not that I'd want to). This is why I disagree with those who claim catchers cheat at showcases. People say they cheat by moving towards the ball and throwing way out ib front of the plate. My question is... Who are they cheating? Themselves. The ball travels faster than the body.

However, there are still the catch and throws where the right foot simply can't be planted before receiving the ball. I really would like to see video clips of the greatest catchers ever (catching and throwing) the glove side pitch.

Is it possible to catch a 95 mph running fastball and have your right foot moved and planted with your body in the best possible throwing position before the ball gets to your glove. That's a long ways to move that right foot (actually both feet and the body) without creating momentum towards 3B in about .4 seconds.

I will agree, that most any pitch that can be caught with the thumb down, the technique Linear mentions will be the quickest. However, those pitches that are caught with thumb up require a different technique (jump pivot) is probably quickest. However, when catchers receive the ball with thumb on top, it's usually a stolen base anyway, no matter what method is used or who's doing the catching.



Problem is... where would a person find those clips... anyone have any?

Linear,

I don't make pizza's

Because of the lack of a clip. I'll try an explanation.

Get in catchers low stance (no one on base stance).

Put both elbows against sides, show pitcher both palms. Left hand is now in thumb up position as if catching an inside pitch.

Right foot behind left foot (offset) Leave your right foot planted, rotate knees so they face 2bman and 1bman (or thereabouts). You now have separation with shoulders still not pointed to secondbase because you are catching the inside pitch.

As you raise out of the stance the hands come together (similar to clapping) and transfer.

This happens while the lower body is already unloading. Soon, the upper body engages the lower and you throw.

A rough explanation but no different than any other player, attempting to make a play, and the ball comes to his glove side

Very good description Linear. I get this and I'm going to use this method 2 see if my times go down.