gas

Run Forest Run.

I anticipate an increase in the sale of locking gas caps and the use of "Oklahoma Credit Cards" if gas prices continue to rise.
Fungo

Reminds me of the beginnings of the gas lines in the early 70's.

Just the other day a school friend say they are unable to travel over Labor Day weekend to see their parents, about an hr away. Why?
They did not want to spend $50 on gas!

We are (and have been) seeing the beginning of a stress-factor, where this may become a life-altering event.

If for just one day, no-one drove, or bought gas and simply stayed home, the USA oil reserves
would not be in question.

Gas prices are definately at the point they are altering people's lifestyles. It's not just a matter of complaining about the issue anymore, but make adjustments such as carpooling, travelling less, etc for most of us now. I know it's impacting my lifestyle. Gas was up to around 3.15 here last night which was up from around 2.65 yesterday morning when I filled up.

Predictably the Louisiana and Mississippi politicians are railing against "gas gouging."
Plays well to voters.

But if gas prices don't rise in areas of severe shortages then gas will run out.

Raise prices and people will have gas but will conserve.

During the Civil War the North employed a naval blockade of the South. There were no price controls in the South and prices skyrocketed.

As a result, European blockade runner ships happily provided the South with plentiful but pricey goods.

The pipelines to the southeast have not been pumping gas since the hurricane. Prices in Atlanta are at some stations 6 dollars a gallon, in Clemson it went up 50 cents yesterday.
Governor of NC made a statement that they were running low on reserves which created a panic, which in turn drove up gas prices. Most of us drive around with half a tank, the thought of no gas caused people to fill up, creating the shortage.
Last I heard one of the pipelines was back working to capacity.
They predict gas prices will level to 3.00 average by the end of this terrible tragedy.

We'll be lucky if gas stays under $3.00 a gallon, long term. imo. The Colonial pipline which serves the midwest and northeast is back on today. The other pipeline is still off though.

Can't wait until I start having to start heating my house.

I know a 47 and couple of 17 year old girls that are going to have a reality check on lifestyles real quick. The overall picture is not good.

What is even more worry some is in a competitive environment you always hit your opponent when he is most vulnerable. I'm not talking just energy related issues.

I'm a very positive person. However, from a world wide perspectice, I'm having very ugly thoughts that we have not seen the worse

If the press doesn't whip up a frenzied panic, things will settle down.

This is a temporary disruption. Prices will settle back after offshore production and refinery operations return to normal.

Prices will settle back, and people will return to buying cars twice as big as they need.

I know one family with three Tahoes. Both of the teen kids have one!

Heard an expert claim on TV the other night that outside of specific events...Hurricanes...that short term there is easily enough oil to go around. The problem is more human nature. Greed and fear....

Tell people there is a shortage and they get FEARFUL and top off their half full tanks- doubling the demand.

Tell the futures traders that oil is going to be "dear" and they look to maximize profits GREED and they drive up the futures contracts making tommorows gas much more expensive than todays. (No value judgements on my part..it's simply the way the market works.)

Given this scenerio he claimed that when all this settles down that prices will drop significantly. Significantly that is until we REALLY run out. He says there is no real shortage, but We've been warned. Time to get serious about alternatives....

Just another BUMP in the road !!!!!

Or just another "curve" in the road.

micdsguy,
Why did you have to say that?

quote:

Prices will settle back, and people will return to buying cars twice as big as they need.

I know one family with three Tahoes. Both of the teen kids have one!

I just picked up my son's new Tahoe Z-71 4X4 yesterday.

I agree about getting serious about alternatives, we all need to turn down the heat, turn up the air conditioners, buy smaller cars, turn off the lights and appliances when we are out. In Europe we have been doing this for years and gas is around $5-6 a gallon. We are used to it. Americans don't live in the real world any more and we can't possibly continue to use this much oil any longer, this should be a wake up call for all of us here.

Sadly, my son drives a gas guzzler. But we bought it darn cheap used last year. Gas consumption doesn't matter much because he drives very little.

Might make sense to buy his younger brother a $2000 used Hummer next year

As I'm sure you know, mmac, the more expensive gas in Europe is because of taxes. Of course, those taxes then support things like effective mass transit.

This might be the proverbial wakeup call (though I doubt it: the gas shortages of the '70's didn't work, rising prices haven't worked, even wars where oil fields are a factor haven't worked). Too many Americans use gas as if an infinite supply was their right.

IMO, lone drivers in massive SUVs (most particularly in the city) are an advertisement for selfishness. Of course there are reasons to drive an SUV if you pull a trailer regularly or are actively involved in the construction industry, but they're hardly required for the overwhelming majority of US drivers.

Don't even get me started on Hummers. Particularly the ones with the odd sense of humor to include an "I support our troops" bumper sticker.

Try getting a team's gear in anything but an SUV.

Did it for years, CADad. Hatchback. Gear, some training tools, multiple coolers.

Orlando, perhaps you have the financial means to own a tiny car to drive when you are alone and also an SUV for when you need to haul stuff.

I don't.

So you will see me driving alone in an SUV. But at other times you will see an SUV with more people and/or gear in it than any car will carry.

I think it is pretty easy to take pot shots at almost anyone, given a little chance to examine their lifestyles.

My boys drive a SUV and Truck with big bumpers and air bags. Orlando, say what you want.

quote:

Did it for years, CADad. Hatchback. Gear, some training tools, multiple coolers

mrs Bee did that as well, in a Suburban - then added 7 players, but sometimes squeezed the entire starting 9 in

when she wasn't able to drive, the required "fleet" of other parents driving was usually 4+ "economy cars" to cover her absence - not really much economy in that

the presumption that when you pass a larger vehicle on the highway that is underloaded, it is always used that way is anecdotal, and by no means a valid conclusion, unless you need it to be to support your view

It's all just a bunch of political/corporate B.S.

All it takes is for this country to band together just 1 day and boycott the pumps and the next day they'd be giving the gas away.

I went from a 7 passenger minivan to a rav4, as I no longer have to haul equipment or players.

My youngest does have a 24 mile drive to school, about a gallon each way, in his manual drive honda civic. He left this morning for school with extra clothes and camping gear. He has about 10 gallons of gas, but not sure he will find more until after the Holiday weekend.

Still, we are high and dry, with running water, food and power. My heart goes out to those in need due to Katrina.

Texan, I'm a single Mom putting two kids through college. "Financial means"? (You were saying about pot shots?)

There are people who need to haul stuff regularly, as I mentioned in my post. Living in a metropolitan area, however, the majority of hauling that's done around here is kids and shopping. Driving to and from North Florida to visit my son I would take note of the number of underloaded, as you say, SUVs. Anectdotal or experience? That also depends on what you want to defend.

SUVs are classified as trucks and aren't held to the same safety or emmissions standards as cars. Rollovers, lower standards for side impact and bumper strength, headlight height and the resultant glare, heavier vehicles requiring greater stopping distance and the difference in manuverability are issues that effect the safety of all drivers on the road. And they use additional fuel to power all that extra weight.

If so few of the parents on your team attend games that it's down to one or two sets of parents to transport them, vans are safer and more economical. They are, however, not as hip or macho.

It would be great if we sent a little gas money to the Red Cross.

http://www.redcross.org/

Oops! Did I forget to mention the wife, the two healthy kids and the handicapped one we have to get in there also? Did I mention the added safety for my family? I get 19 mpg highway in my big SUV. Go figure out how much gas you can save even with a tiny hybrid and then figure out how much that difference is going to save you over about 5 years. It isn't much. A hybrid only makes sense for people who drive almost exclusively in stop and go traffic. Those people don't usually drive that long of distances so it doesn't end up making much difference anyways.

When they come out with a full size SUV hybrid I'll buy one even though I won't be able to justify it financially.

Before you blame people for buying vehicles that make sense functionally and financially (OK, hummers not included) why don't you blame the auto companies for not making hybrid versions of large vehicles? They don't do it because nobody is willing to pay that much for very limited gas savings. People buy the hybrids because of the glitzy mpg numbers not realizing that the gas savings in current hybrids are really pretty minimal. Don't compare hybrids to SUVs compare them to similar size cars. Why buy a Prius when you can buy a Corolla for much less and the difference in gas usage and gas cost is negligible? The reality is that hybrids don't save that much gas. If they built a Corolla with the same materials as they use in a Prius it would get just as good of gas mileage on the highway and perhaps better since it wouldn't have to carry the heavy batteries. (currently - 40 mpg vs 50 mpg, assume 100,000 miles driven over 5 years; 2500 gallons vs. 2000 gallons; 500 gallon differential or about $300 dollars per year vs. having to pay about $6000 more up front for the Prius.) Then when you take into account the additional manufacturing required for the batteries you realize that overall there were little or no energy or pollution savings realized but you paid a lot more in the name of being politically correct.

By the way, we drove Vans for quite a few years and they just aren't as practical as the SUVs are, even though they did get slightly better gas mileage if you went with an undersized engine.

As poor of a driver as my son will probably be at first, his first car is going to be a tank.

Orlando, SUV's are held to safety standards, emissions standards, etc. The same as cars? Of course not. One is a truck, the other a car.

My daughter drives an aging, full size SUV (aka "the tank"). Why? Safety. Hers, to be exact. If someone else chooses to drive a Cooper or motorcyle or bicyle then they must accept all the consequences - good & bad - of their choice. Don't expect me to put my daughter on the road in a less safe vehicle just to meet your desire for cars with better mpg.

Many opportunities exist for conserving resources. You choose yours, I'll choose mine.

The game carpool post was someone else's. But I would like to know your reasoning behind vans being safer and more economical. I don't think that statement can be defended.

Many people don't realize that higher octane gas requires more crude oil to manufacture.

We could reduce imports simply by switching to cars with less powerful engines. My car tops out at 145 mph, I'm told. What a waste. I've never had it over 80.

Why do I drive it. Honestly, because its a cool car. Must say I'm an old hippie and I feel a bit guilty about that.

Everyone is (obviously) capable of doing their own research. But the assumption that because a vehicle is big and heavy that it is safe is only an assumption.


SUVs and safety

Links to SUV debate

Safe Car Guide

In my daughter's case, it is no assumption. It is proven.

A car pulled right out in front of her (driver admitted fault to the police officer, even). The front end of the car was removed in the impact.

Damage to the tank? Broken side reflector, scratch in the paint.

It is a matter of physics. In the collision of a heavier object and a lighter object, moving at the same speeds, far more energy is transferred to the lighter object.

Just some thoughts...

Someone in the White House keeps saying we're at war...just wonder why during WWII gas rationing was used to control consumption and prices to stop gouging and in this national emergency...while we are at war...this person in the White House can't bring himself to lead.

I say lead follow or get out of the way.

If I was in charge I would implement both rationing and price controls....

Similarly in New Orleans I see all kinds of people standing around complaining... get them organizied into work squads, pay them a salary so they can buy what they need for their kids and put them to work cleaning up where they live.

Geez, this is not hard folks.

Ramrod,
I hear ya. I was embarassed to see the FEMA press conference yesterday. All Brown had to offer was cliches ("we've gotta think outside the box!") and admonitions to the looters ("Don't do it!"). He provided NO LEADERSHIP. These people are starving and dying. There's not even enough gas to get sufficient relief vehicles into N.O. - appalling!

Orlando

Was the "Friends of Earth" website the most unbiased site you could find to make your safety argument?

You can say what you want, they can say what they want but after 13 years of seeing every type of vehicle vs. vehicle, solo rollovers, high speed, low speed crashes first hand, you can not convince me that I should not put my boys in SUV's or Pickup Trucks.

If I could afford a Hummer like Arnold, they would drive one of those.

if SUV/trucks are really unsafe, y'all have little to worry about as owners will soon die off as a result, leaving the driving world to compacts by attrition



Texan, same here
I was involved in a low speed accident (35 mph)Dodge Ram vs a Camry that ran a stop sign, fortunatly no one was hurt & it took along time to convince the cops that it wasn't a hit & run w/the other driver leaving the scene

Camry - totaled, the Dodge had a cut on the tire sidewall, and coffee in the radio

the Camry lady was in disbelief, and swore to have a truck asap

Question, why is it that our United States Government has not stepped in long before now to deal with the shortage of refinery operations in this Country?

I am told there is plenty of crude but not enough refineries in the USA to refine the crude into gasoline.

I guess if we have too many refineries the price of gasoline would go down and the oil companies might loose a dollar.

It's crazy that the most powerfull nation in the world is manipulated by oil companies and the poor average citizen has to be the one who pays.

CV

We airlifted Berlin when the people were being threatened with starvation by the blockade from the Soviets. The U.S. Government needs to stop posturing and talking and start doing.

Airlift small boats like canoes, row boats and the like by the thousands right away so people can start moving around to help with rescue and such activities. Just because there is water needant create a complete collapse of the society. Just needs an adjustment to see the reality of it and create a "Venice" like city.

Airlift food to strategic locations and transport that food to distribution centers that people can reach using the small boats.

Meanwhile start filling in the dikes with 5,000 lb boulders until a breakwater is created.

Use the Naval airlift capacity of the Jeep carrier to ferry people and airlift food.

Declare a National emergency reset gasoline prices at the 1995 level. This will release funding for people to give to charities and help fuel the capacity to assist the people in need in New Orleans.

JMO

quote:

Originally posted by Ramrod:
Just some thoughts...

Someone in the White House keeps saying we're at war...just wonder why during WWII gas rationing was used to control consumption and prices to stop gouging and in this national emergency...while we are at war...this person in the White House can't bring himself to lead.

I say lead follow or get out of the way.

If I was in charge I would implement both rationing and price controls....

Similarly in New Orleans I see all kinds of people standing around complaining... get them organizied into work squads, pay them a salary so they can buy what they need for their kids and put them to work cleaning up where they live.

Geez, this is not hard folks.

Gouging?

I'll take Bush's leadership over yours any day.

If you want socialism, move to a socialist country. I'll take democracy and capitalism. That means taking some "downs" among all the "ups".

You can't have it all.

Did it ever occur to you that if the people in New Orleans who are standing around complaining wanted to do something other than stand around & complain, no one is stopping them now? They could jump right in & start helping now, rather than wait for some government work program.

Shame to see this board turning into a political forum.