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88 replies

Getting in the slot

Glove ManGlove Man1,000+ posts
http://teachersbilliards.com/index.html

What happened to all the pics?

Still no answer.....fresh or canned?

Interesting, it is well known that you do not think very highly of most coaches, as you have said many times on this board, "most coaches do not know what they're doing". Here's a partial definition of a "coach":

coach

n 1: (sports) someone in charge of training an athlete or a team [syn: manager, handler] 2: a person who gives private instruction (as in singing or acting)

Now sticking to that meaning, you have trained an athlete or have given private instruction to an idividual. Welcome to the club coach! Would you lump yourself in with the other coaches who don't know what they're doing? Welcome to the club.....Coach
party
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
Flipp writes:

"The next 7-8 ( actually 8-16 from the start) frames Glauss sets up the base to unload his swing from."

Very, very true but what is happening up top synchs the two moves for this particular hitter IMO. There is something happening up there, there is movement of the bat into a common slot used by MLB players as he forms the base.

This upper body move keeps his hands back for an instant as he opens his hips. As they flatten the shoulder connects and follows.


What makes his hands appear closer through these frames? ....for him it is bottom hand under top followed by internal shoulder rotation followed by top hand around bottom

Why would he not just leave the bat in the launch slot where he began? They could all just turn together. Bo Jackson, Kirby Puckett, Mike Piazza, Arod, Chipper, Sosa, Bergman, Tejada,Bagwell, McGriff, Sheffield..... all style?? Idon't think so but it might just be me
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
ON a positive note, I went to Kreiger's in Edwardsville and noticed that they had so many great pictures of hitters that I spent a large amount of time walking around and looking. You can see so much. Maybe not as good as video but still worthwhile. For instance, Earnie Banks with his hands down below his arm pit as he awaited the pitcher's motion. Of course, on the pictures where the swing is occurring, one picture tells all about all of the great hitters.
T Teacherman500+ posts
Buster,

You always stay on point.

As far as the syncing is concerned, I wonder if it is the move you see or the move I pointed out.

You say frames 8-16. I say frames 17-21. My opinion is there is nothing wrong with what you see in 8-16. But I don't believe there is a cause and effect relationship between 8-16 and 17-21 .

In other words, I believe 17-21 can happen and have the same effect on the swing with or without 8-16.
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
Heck, if you want the post these things then at least post the correct url:

http://www.ihsa.org/school/records/sum1904.htm

This would reveal that we have won 3 regionals in a row but have lost in the sectionals. If you researched further, you'd see that 3 times Edwardsville beat us to go to state. If you further researched this, you'd find out that Belleville East also defeated us when they made it to state. All of this is while I have been here. Now, if you went further, you'd find out that in the history of this school which was deemed a "coaching graveyard" before I came here, you'd find out that the school has now won 5 regionals in the 50+ years of this school. (That would be Butler 3 & every other coach to coach here 2.) Anthing else you want?

Now, if you did a search of my name, you'd find out several things. One, you'd find out some local paper articles. If you went far enough, you'd find out my involvement with the Edwardsville Teams. If you went even further, you'd findout my name in the Congressional Record numerous times. How far do you want to go?
T Teacherman500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
Teacherman

At leastCoach has credentials and is not afraid to say who he is---what do you have other than your EGO !!!!

Having chatted with Coach at length I can tell you he can coach for me anytime and probably teach me a thing or too--he is not hiding behind a facade of cyber knowledge--he is real


Are you sure????
T Teacherman500+ posts
quote:
...You stated you coached a National Champion Team and yet, you won't say what team it was....


If I remember correctly, I said I coached a National Champion. Not a team. And I have.

And, if I remember correctly, that was in response to your chest beating about the state and national titles you won.

I had assumed they were as a head coach. I guess my assumption was wrong.

But, I was THE coach of the National Champion that I taught.
T Teacherman500+ posts
I don't care if you know about me or not.

I'm not the one who started the chest beating.

Assume I'm lying if you want. Fine with me.

The current issue about your resume is not effected by mine.

One other thing. As the Liliputians come out to support you, I just get stronger.

I'm used to bad odds.

But facts are facts. And they usually outdo spin.
Last edited by Teacherman
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
CoachB25, congratulations, you've obviously done well......But, what's the point in all this?.....I have no idea what Teacherman looks like or does for a living......Nor, do I care.....It is obvious to me he knows quite alot about teaching an efficient swing......I can tell this from his comments alone.......That's all I need to qualify him.....CoachB25, you have much to offer, also......I assure you, I wouldn't enter into a hitting discussion with you if I didn't respect what you had to say on the subject.....

Why get sidetracked with all this other stuff?......I really don't understand the purpose of it.....It's getting to where it's almost not worth posting here, anymore.......There's way too much antagonism....If I'm getting tired of it, I know most everyone else already has.......

I hope we can get around all this and move on.....If not, the hitting discussions will disappear around here....... noidea
goMOgoMO100+ posts
bluedog wrote:

"Why get sidetracked with all this other stuff?......I really don't understand the purpose of it.....It's getting to where it's almost not worth posting here, anymore.......There's way too much antagonism....If I'm getting tired of it, I know most everyone else already has......."



can you all picture the coffee I just spit all over my keyboard!!!!!!!


but to be honest, Blue has been much less antagonistic lately. cheers to you BD!!
T Teacherman500+ posts
Hey guys, just my way of pointing out the fallacy in your "profiles" argument.

Let's get back to frames 8-16 or 17-21.

In real words, correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth Swingbuster, but it is his claim that the c*cking of the tip of the bat toward the pitcher is instrumental in syncing the upper and lower bodies. That is what is going on between frames 8-16.

It is my belief that although that techique may very well work and is shown in the style of several mlb players, I think the flattening of the hands alone, without the c*cking of the bat towards the pitcher, does the same thing. It is my belief that the hands must get flat before rotation starts to allow proper syncing. With or without the bat c*ck.

If your hands don't get flat, prior to rotation, you'll never get the bat in the proper swing plane. You may get it close. You may get some hits. But you won't develop the consistency that you want.



Pujols starts with the bat c*cked but he doesn't pump it forward as Bonds does. But he does get the hands flat prior to rotation. Notice the barrell drop to near horizontal while still behind him prior to rotation.

Since it is done both ways, why do some do it and some don't? What is the benefit of the pump? I maintain it is related to timing, not batspeed, not swing plane.
Last edited by Teacherman
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Kind of agree with Teach on this one.

On the other hand I think Pujols is a great illustration of rotational to the contact point and then extending. If his timing is good as it was in this shot he get's max bat speed at contact. If he's a little early he can still make good contact albeit at a somewhat reduced bat speed.
SandmanSandman500+ posts
This is not intended to come across argumentative, but inquisitive. Wink

quote:
Originally posted by Teacherman:
Pujols starts with the bat c*cked but he doesn't pump it forward as Bonds does.
If memory serves me correctly, Pujols here is starting in the "rock the U" position swingbuster used to advocate?

quote:
But he does get the hands flat prior to rotation. Notice the barrell drop to near horizontal while still behind him prior to rotation.
I understand what you're saying, but I'm not really seeing his hands all that "flat", unless you mean maybe about 45 degrees? And it looks more like "just after starting rotation" than "prior to", no?
Last edited by Sandman
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
THE POINT IS

You cannot get your hands close to your body without the lead elbow pointing down and the rear elbow raising....the hands get close to the body by doing this...Try putting the bat in the 45 slot and push the hands back to the rear shoulder( especially id you have Pujols muscles)....now lower the lead elbow in toward the belly button and feel the hands draw back inside easily near the rear collar bone. I thought we wanted a relaxed upper body?? hummmmmmmmmmm.....

Bat position aside....(tipping is a by -product of getting the hands close)via lowering the lead elbow and raising the rear into a relaxed natural position. Can I add Ted Williams to this list?

There is plenty of time to get the bat on plane and you will but when your bat flattens you will be on an inside out path( starting closer to the tip of the rear shoulder than otherwise possible) You will also gets angular acceleration and the hips a head start.

Vertical bat..close hands relaxed


Horizontal bat ...too much hands out over the plate and a strain to get the hands back and load. Shoulders and hips move together

This is not style.....

Sandman..thanks as always for clips and ALL bats launch from 45 IMO no matter where they start.

Teach....your right...you have to get flat (45) to swing....my point too....you have to be more vertical to GO flat....thats the point as well as the vertical bat allows the hands to fit close to the torso initially
Last edited by swingbuster
H HotCornerDad100+ posts
The third frame of this set of stills shows that as Puljos hands clear his hips they enter the Palm Up Palm down stage (Flat) He is still rotating the hips and shoulders increasing bat speed. Later frames would show the barrel of the bat rounding to follow the swing plan of the lead elbow as contact is made. Once contact is made the swing enters the flat through extension as Lau preaches, this is to get backspin on the ball, like a good fastball. The second frame still shows the barrel of the bat above the hands as Emanski demonstrates and calls this the power position. You try it put a ball on a T rotate your hips stop in this position then finish the snap of the hips and get the shoulders involved, fascinating how hard you can hit from here. He keeps his hands 4 to 6 Inches from the chest as Williams teaches. (Without being able to measure my guess is they don't get further from his chest than 4 inches until they have cleared the hips.)

FYI: Emanski does not talk about squish the bug in his video, he talks about the hips rotating causing the back knee to swing forward toward the pitcher, the knee is a hinge it does not rotate when it does it is time to call the doctor. Puljos gets some much torque out of his hips his back foot comes off the ground. It still ends up in the L shape under his inside ear hole.
T Teacherman500+ posts
For you Emanski guys, then what is the purpose of the drill that is shown on all of his commercials? Some kind of knee turning going on.



Watch the barrell flatten behind his head prior to launch.



I see the same thing here. Not as pronounced. This pitch is lower in the zone than the Pujols clip.



This guy could hit a little. See the same thing?
Last edited by Teacherman
T Teacherman500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Sandman:
...I understand what you're saying, but I'm not really seeing his hands all that "flat", unless you mean maybe about 45 degrees? And it looks more like "just after starting rotation" than "prior to", no?


Sandman

You've heard the "level" swing discussion. Level to the pitch v level to the ground.

Well, the flat hands discussion is similar.

Hands are flat when they are perpendicular to the axis. Therefore, I consider them flat in the first of your three stills. When the barrell is still behind the head. Therefore my statement before rotation.

In the Pujols clip, he starts with the axis tilted forward and raises it to get to the high pitch. In each of the frames the hands are flat. Flat to the spine, not the ground.

HCC

I don't agree with your backspin stuff. Back spin is simply a hit slightly below center.

I believe you should attempt to hit the center.
Last edited by Teacherman
SandmanSandman500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Teacherman:
Sandman

You've heard the "level" swing discussion. Level to the pitch v level to the ground.

Well, the flat hands discussion is similar.

Hands are flat when they are perpendicular to the axis. Therefore, I consider them flat in the first of your three stills. When the barrell is still behind the head. Therefore my statement before rotation.

In the Pujols clip, he starts with the axis tilted forward and raises it to get to the high pitch. In each of the frames the hands are flat. Flat to the spine, not the ground.


Thanks for the clarification, Teach. It's tough sometimes when we know what we mean by what we say, but it's not exactly what we said. Wink
H HotCornerDad100+ posts
Hi Teach, I see the back knee in each of these responding to the hips starting to rotate. If the hips don't rotate you wind up looking like Elvis trying to swing a bat and you know that. Not sure what your reference drill is from the Emanski spot, so I can't speak to it. The full video demonstrates the hips get the legs involved not the the other way round.

Each of these swings the barrel gets into the swing plane of the lead elbow but does not drop below the hands, Yaz is the closest to the barrel below the hands, I would have to see more video to determine if this was his consistent habit and natural swing or an adjustment to the pitch location. Also I know many guys in the majors that have swing tendencies out side of the norm as well as you do. They get results but is it the best way to teach an ball player to swing? I don't think so and these players typically don't last. The point you make on level swing, to the ground or the path of the ball, this plays to the barrel location, I like level to the path of the ball, keep the barrel above the hands until the bat starts to enter the zone, this leads to the bat feeling light and allowing a young hitter to generate bat speed. No the bat does not stay vertical, it drops to the swing plane. Most of these swings start in a loaded position with the bat on parallel with the back leg. // In both of the first two clips the barrel does drop toward the ground but does not drop below the hands so I might be missing you meaning of flat here. I define flat as bottom hand palm down top hand palm up through the zone. JMH Observations.
H HotCornerDad100+ posts
Common, don't be nit picky, yes the barrel has to drop below the hands through the zone because the ball is typically below the hands and the lead elbow stays on top of the ball.

"keep the barrel above the hands until the bat starts to enter the zone,"

Bonds swing does this very consistantly because his hands stay close in as he rotates theem across his body.

The barrel stays above the hands till it enters the zone. Don't be so combative. Debate doesn't need to follow the art of Sun-Tsu, Wink
Last edited by HotCornerDad
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