Getting inside/outside calls on the black

I've seen this a lot in youth level ball. We encountered it again yesterday. My son pitched 3 2/3 innings and had to throw 62 pitches. He should have thrown about 40. He throws relatively hard for a 10 yr old (avg. 55mph), and the kid for the other team was throwing lollipops in there about 40-42. My son threw several balls at the belly button right over the middle of the plate and the ump called them balls (high). The other kid was throwing pitches at the top of the letters or the armpits and getting strikes. It seems to happen pretty often that umps try to even up the teams by helping the weaker kid and expecting too much of the kid who has decent command and throws hard.

We've had two umps do this to our team recently and both said the same thing to us after the game..."the kid needs to be able to adapt to my strike zone." Uh, what? They're 10 years old. This ain't double-A ball.

Jon

If you have an umpire doing this then he is doing a disservice to the good pitcher. If he is throwing pitches that should be strikes then the ump shouldn't try to "even" the talent. Now the thing to remember with young kids and bad pitching is it is hard to be consistant with slow lollipop pitching. He will sometimes get strikes he shouldn't and other times lose ones he should.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
If you have an umpire doing this then he is doing a disservice to the good pitcher. If he is throwing pitches that should be strikes then the ump shouldn't try to "even" the talent. Now the thing to remember with young kids and bad pitching is it is hard to be consistant with slow lollipop pitching. He will sometimes get strikes he shouldn't and other times lose ones he should.

To add some more info: We were the away team playing in another state. The level is 13u. Our pitcher throws "mid 70's" and on the day had 13 K's, 4 hits and 5 BB's.

Beez, get used to it. It's a sad thing when the " Blue " takes the game away from the kids. You will have coffee can umps, umps who will have a 2' SQ, umps who call where it is caught and if you are lucky an ump who calls the middle of the plate black to black. The only thing i'll take for sure is a consistant ump who won't change his zone ( good or bad ) for either team. You see bad calls at the professional level. These guys are only human and will make mistakes. Take the good with the bad and try to find his zone. It will aggrivate you when you have to drive 6 or 8hrs home from that kind of tourny though.

Ruste - I'm not complaining about the zone itself. Moreso about the theory for how the zone is defined. As an example, you often hear announcers during a game say that when an Ace from one staff is facing a rooking from another, the ace will get better calls because he's earned it. The ace will get the calls on the black because he's demonstrated he can throw there consistantly whereas the rookie has to earn those calls.

In this case, it was essentially the exact opposite. Our pitcher demonstrated he could throw it there consistantly but the ump wouldn't give him the black citing that he's throwing with such accuracy, HE should be in the white to get a strike whereas he'll give the other pitcher a little more leeway. Obviously, those weren't his exact words but you get the picture.

Ohhh and for what it's worth, you may have seen this guy at one of ZS's games.

quote:

our coach approached him (civilly)

just a thought, but there are times to be "a little less than civil" to make your point ...
AND - you can be civil & still get tossed if you wish ... sometimes it's well worth it for the rest on the game/weekend

jmo, but a good one

btw beeze, just because some guy behind the plate who you don't even know gives you an explanation for something ... don't hold it UP TO the level of a "universal theory"

for what its worth, i like the comment made at our mandatoy district umpire meetings. these are usually to cover new rules and review the rule book. the instructor said ,"guys, the plate is 17 inches wide and ball is a liitle over 3inches in dia. if any part of the ball touches the corner, it's a strike. " so in effect you have a 23 inch strike zone(if the ump decides to use it). the bottom line by any ump is consistentancy. if for example, he is calling the low strike, you had better be ready to swing at the low ones.hope this helps.

Just My Opinion:

It is truly a sad state of affairs when an umpire attempts to control the game by calling different zones based on the talent level of the pitchers.

Regardless of how an ump sees the zone he should be calling it the same all the time. There will be many games in which one team has considerably more talent (pitching, hitting & fielding) than the other. The umpire's job is to monitor the game, not control it. The game will go where the players take it.

Admittedly there are times when the ump has to exercise some control relative to certain situations that arise regarding rule infractions and so forth but to intentionally try to "steer" the game is both unfortunate and flatly cheating the players.

quote:

Originally posted by Chairman:

quote:

our coach approached him (civilly)

just a thought, but there are times to be "a little less than civil" to make your point ...
AND - you can be civil & still get tossed if you wish ... sometimes it's well worth it for the rest on the game/weekend

jmo, but a good one

btw beeze, just because some guy behind the plate who you don't even know gives you an explanation for something ... don't hold it UP TO the level of a "universal theory"

Oh, he eventually did get tossed...about an inning or two later. After the "civil" approach didn't work, he went off on the guy for squeezing us.

And I guess you missed my original point. I thought the ump's comment went against the "universal theory" so I was asking if any umps had similar opinions.

I cant understand an umpire that inserts himself into the "direction" of the game, an umpire who is evening up the strike zone based on ability is a not an umpire to me..... that is cheating....

we are there to govern the "outcome" not the direction....was it a strike, a ball, out or safe.....not adapt the rules to make the game different.....

To that end... me, my partners and all the umpires that I work with in non-youth baseball would find this type of manipulation definately going against our way of calling the game....

If we have a dominating pitcher, its strikes and outs.....its not our place to adapt to the level of lowest common denominator.......

If I had a partner squeezing one pitcher over another in a game, we would have a meeting in between innings and he would then decide to work the game square or work the rest of the game by himself......

and as an aside to any umpire adopting this approach....in my experience this will derail any upward umpiring career advancement beyond youth baseball.......

quote:

Originally posted by piaa_ump:
and as an aside to any umpire adopting this approach....in my experience this will derail any upward umpiring career advancement beyond youth baseball.......

I wish I knew the guy's name so I could ask Ruste but I'm pretty sure this guy is a HS ump too.

Sad but true.....they're found at all levels.

We play in various areas on the East Coast and calls vary--we just tell our kids to adapt to what they are calling--both the pitcher/catcher and hitter situations

It is really simple-- use what the umpire is doing to help yourself and stop the bitching

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
It is really simple-- use what the umpire is doing to help yourself and stop the bitching

So you're fine if an umpire squeezes your pitcher but is more lenient in the zone with your opponent's pitcher? Not only that but he admits to it...and you're fine with that?

Again, if you take the time and read what I wrote, I'm not "bitching". Instead, I was asking if umpires around here ever took a similar position as what we'd encountered this past weekend.

BEEZER

It isnt going to change --no way no how-- you still hjave to learn to adapt to the zone the ump gives you--the more you b i t c h the worse it gets

Good day all,

At the risk of raising the ire of here, I have a simple yet loaded question.

When did umpires get the right to have "their strike zone" ?

Here is the defintion of the strike zone from MLB.com.

The STRIKE ZONE is that area over home plate the upper limit of which is a horizontal line at the midpoint between the top of the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants, and the lower level is a line at the hollow beneath the knee cap. The Strike Zone shall be determined from the batter's stance as the batter is prepared to swing at a pitched ball. (For diagram of STRIKE ZONE see page 23.)


I posted my point on this in the pitching forum as well on a thread talking about kids dealing with changing strike zones.

In LL, I can see us all having to deal with this, the umpires have very little training and are most usually volunteers.

But At the HS level and beyond, they are "patched" or "certified" and get paid. I do not think it is appropriate or fair to tell 15 to 18 yr olds who are trying to learn the game that they also have to "suck it up" and deal with umpires that feel its their right to alter the rules of the game.

If you, the umpire, have decided that a pitch that is halfway between the ankles and knee is a strike, or a pitch 2 baseballs off the plate is a strike, then just tell both coaches before the game. At least let the players on each team know what they are dealing with before the game starts.

If that approach doesnt satisfy everyone, then change the rules to allow the umpire to make his own zone. Right now, the RULE BOOK sets the zone not the umpire. I am fully aware that umps are human and will make mistakes, but its ridiculous to attend games where kids are throwing legimate strikes over & over only to watch an umpire impose his will on the game.

We are asking our kids to put in the time to do their drills and work the skills. Is it really so much to ask the umpires to do the same?

NH - You have done an excellant job of quoting the strike zone according to the rule book.

Any umpire who is calling pitches at the shins or pitches at the eye balls strikes, regardless of the age or skill level is a disgrace to umpiring and the game.

Also, any ump who purposely squeezes a pitcher and not another is also doing an injustice. I have experienced that as a parent of a pitcher.

However, an umpire does have the right to establish his strike zone.And the variance of his strike zone is the borderline pitch. There is a thread in this forum that dicusses this in great detail.

At the end of the day, every player and coach "has to suck it up" in regards to borderline pitches. (A borderline pitch is that pitch that when you are on offensive you think it is a ball, and when you are on defense you think it is a strike.)

I agree that coaches & players need to suck it up; figure out what the zone is and deal with it. What I don't agree with is when the ump flat out tells you "You pitcher's zone is smaller than the other team's pitcher because your pitcher is more consistant".

My underlying question was this; my impression was that I thought umps tended to give the "better" pitcher more leniency (if ANY) during a game and I cited the example of the all star ace getting the calls on the black but not the rookie. Is this typically the case or is that just hogwash and the ump we had this weekend was the "norm"; the player who is pitching better is expected to pitch in the white and if he strays, won't get the calls in the black?

PirateFan,

Ty for the reply. I went thru the 9 pages of this forum, but found no reference in the titles to the strike zone itself. Do you recall the tittle of the thread you mentioned?

I agree with you that may be a question on establihing borderline pitches, but the belt is NOT boderline. It is absolutely foolish at the HS level to call pitches at the belt a ball when the rule book so CLEARLY defines the top of the zone as halfway between top of the shoulders and the top of the pants (ie...the belt). If people truely feel this is a valid strike zone, then change the rules.

I would love to read the thread you mentioned though.

Thanks In Advance

NH,
the post you are looking for is "borderline pitches" which evolved into much the same question you are asking here.....why is it that umpires have "their" zone and not the rule book zone.....

Much of my answer here I have pulled from that thread....but here goes...

My zone is just what happens when I am behind the plate attempting to judge a 3 dimensional strike zone that changes based on the batters height.

If you can imagine an invisible floating column, 17 and a half inches wide that extends from a horizontal line at the midpoint between the top of the shoulders and at the lower level is the hollow beneath the knee cap. The zone is determined by from each batters stance as the batter is prepared to swing at a pitched ball....the strike zone changes for a 5'6" batter to a 6' batter......

All of this adds to each umpire having their own zone....even as we all try to adhere to the rule book definition.

It is just the reality of doing the job. I am known as an inside and low ball umpire. I know this from video tape of my cage work at umpire clinics. I am more apt to call a ball a strike inside and low than I am at the outside and high side of the zone. Its just my reality...maybe its because I am short that I see that lower ball as a strike. Dont know, not sure what I can do as a human to improve on that.

I try and keep as consistent a zone as possible to avoid problems, but it is what it is.

Given that, in games with umpires of my experience, you will get different zones...much of it based on such things as the umpires height, his stance and the quality if the catchers.....I have seen recently injured umpires behind catchers of dubious quality jump around like cats on a hot tin roof.....not suprisingly the zone was jumping as well......

I believe that most trained umpires call the rule book zone to the best of their ability....

I believe what Pirate fan and I always say is that we all try to call the strike zone as described in the rule book. Going back on my training, I can tell you based on video proof, that I call the borderline pitch inside and low a strike, but the outside and up pitch a ball.....now that is defining "my zone" over the strict rule book zone....

Its a condition of my height, my stance, my experience and probably a hundred other factors.......I keep working to refine my zone to fit into the rule book, but truth be told, I probably wont ever get it book rule perfect.....

I hesitate to offer this statement since usually this is the childs way out, but I will offer that it isnt as easy as it seems.....But I will guarantee you that I will keep trying to get better.......(PA state clinic March 11, 2006)where I will get cage work in....

Despite all our efforts, I feel there will always be some variance.......but I will try to get better......if at any time I feel I am doing "good enough" and fail to work on refining my game......I will call it a career.......

hope this helps understanding of my point of view....

piaa_ump,

THANK YOU!!!

At last an intelligent reply without all the foolish banter i find in most of these forums!

I appreciate you taking the time to explain this. I especially love the idea that you are reviewing yourself with video. I know we use video on my son for checking mechanics and other things such as "that pitch was outside or too high or I didnt do that....etc".

Do you know if video review is a standard practice for retaining ones' certified status?

Again im looking at this from the perspective that if we are asking our young players to put in the time developing their skills, it only makes sense to ask those who officate the games to do the same.

A tip of my hat to you sir for doing just that!

quote:

Originally posted by piaa_ump:
I have seen recently injured umpires behind catchers of dubious quality jump around like cats on a hot tin roof.....not suprisingly the zone was jumping as well......

piaa ump - I'm sure there are good catchers who "miss" one or two pitches if he feels the calls are of dubious quality.

Too bad you weren't behind the plate for our game Sunday. I doubt we would've had any problems.

NH,
I do not know of any state association that requires video review of umpires to retain certification. Video of your cage work is available from optional clinics and camps that an umpire can attend.....

Much of the certification at the HS level involves testing, and leaves the individual chapters to handle the on field mechanics.....

hope this helps....

Beezer....

no doubt.....but the smart catchers always say "sorry blue, he crossed me up"......just in case an umpire might have thought that miss was on purpose.....

NH & Beezer,

You will always find that piaa's answers or comments are thoughtful and sincere. I've learned a lot from him.

I can easily understand your frustration with the umpires like the one noted in the original post and I believe that piaa, Pirate and I adequately stated what our feelings are about such officiating.

NH, you mentioned the defined strike zone and illustration on page 23 of the OBR. The Fed book also defines by word what the strike zone is. The illustration in the OBR also includes solid and dotted lines relative to the batter and the plate to help with understanding the defined area. But you know, (a little sarcasm here) try as I might, I've never been able to find those lines when I get behind the plate. It sure would make my life a lot easier if I could.

What I'm implying is that it becomes perceptual when an ump is visualizing the zone. He isn't sitting in the zone, he's behind it. Other factors, as piaa mentioned, are his stance, the batter's stance (for up & down) and what the catcher is or isn't doing; all of which can affect that perception.

As for me, I continually work on my game. I'm never completely satisfied with what I'm doing. Some things can always be improved on.

You're right. I'm getting paid to be an umpire and I owe it to the coaches and players to do the best job I can do when I step onto the field.

TR, good response for the bittchin. So let me get this straight. You never had problems with any umps that you have delt with in your many years of baseball. You never called on an umpire for calling bad pitches. Not once? I don't think their is a person alive today that has watched a live game and not said nothing about a blown call. Not defending Beez but Iv'e seen enough umpires over the past 3 summers that shouldn't have even been in the same state let alone on the feild. It's one thing to adjust to a ball that is close. But when you have to swing at pitches at your eyes or in the dirt thats a whole different thing. We all can only hope that PIAA ump starts his own training camp and all umps will have to attend. Good luck to all of you that will be traveleing real soon out of state and have a safe summer...

Pilsner,

Thanks! And keep up the good work!

I have the greatest of respect for any sports officials who continuing to work at their craft.

It is unfortunate that you and piaa_ump appear to be a minority rather than a large majority. I have seen this in baseball & basketball as well. An "old boys" network that keeps good young officials doing JV games while older out of shape and in many cases simply incompetent refs/umps are given varsity games year in and year out.

My son has played LL, AAU and now HS and Legion ball. We have watch him play in district, state and national tournaments. I have had the opportunity to speak with prents from all over New England, Texas, Georgia, California....etc. The common thing I took away from years of talking with these people was a sincere frustration at the dollars & time involved in giving their kid an opportunity to see how far he could go and then watch a guy call a game who maybe took a written test years ago and has no clue how to officiate the game.

I agree with Ruste, you & piaa_ump need to start a school. I just wonder what it will take to get the state athletic association to get serious monitoring officials and giving all kids in all sports the best officials possible, not just the next guy on the list.

NHF,

Thanks for the kind words. They're truly appreciated.

quote:

Originally posted by Ruste:
Not defending Beez ...

Sheesh....You make it sound like that's a bad thing.

NH,

I also would like to thank you for your words, but now, I need to take some moderate exception to some of them and maybe provide some clarification along the way...sorry this may be long as I have thought about this for some time....

I've been involved in umpiring a long time and at 45, I am in the younger age strata of my HS and college chapter.....In my summer chapter I am by far in the younger age strata.....I know this is not an isolated issue. I am an officer in both chapters and official recruitment is a priority for both......

There is a shortage of officials in most all sports, but for this discussion, I will focus only on baseball....When I look around at my chapter meetings, I do not see young people coming in to the calling...We have 70+ year old officials calling games, who, although well past thier prime, do very competent work....we are not holding young guys down......The few new recruits to umpiring we get each year progress rapidly to the better games.....

Our loss of new recruits after a single season is high...one of the recurring reasons given for leaving the sport is the frustration at the dollars & time involved in becoming a trained and qualified umpire and then being subjected to abuse from coaches, parents and fans, who never read a rule book and have no clue how to officiate the game......

Now I stole that last part from you, but you see that frustration is common on both sides of the chain linked fence......

Now the most common rebuttal to that is that "Umpires get paid to do that".... and yes, that is true. I do not umpire for free.... But the reality of umpiring baseball is that baseball is the most cost intensive sport to officiate.... I have more than $750 in protective gear, I have different uniforms for all the leagues I call, I have my dues for my HS/college chapter and summer ball chapters, I have to pay all my registrations from PONY though HS, College and Legion.......and I must carry a 1 million dollar liabilty policy so I can protect myself from litigation..... all this before I make one penny from umpiring...

If I choose to work on my skills I must pay for the camps and clinics that I attend to learn to be a better umpire.... You can begin to see that the return on umpiring financially speaking is not large.........especially when you start the season in the hole $400 to $700....

So umpiring to the majority of us is really not about the money. so what is it....The overwhelming response to that question when posed to my acquaintences is that its the love of the game.....

The real issue here is the proliferation of leagues and the dwindling amount of umpires......the AAU, USSSA, PONY, LL, HS, travel, select, leagues all want umpires and we are stretched too thin.....yes, I admit in order to cover the games we as a chapter can not afford to turn away any recruit......in that case it does happen that you did not get the best umpire, but the most available one......

The state association can not assist here as to them we are independent contractors, so the best they can do or want to do, is test and in some cases, do a background checks.......

There are no real answers here, there are however real problems here.....and in the future...There are personal respect issues that run umpires away from the game....because a parent spent money, they believe they can berate and abuse an umpire for a call that went against their team....or because an umpire blew a call....which all of us have done, Myself included...........Umpiring is not a thankless job, but it can have some thankless moments....

Now, no one is running me off...... I love the game...I believe your child deserves the best officiating I can give, and I work hard at providing it.....tonight I am attending the optional Playoff clinic to work on the mechanics skills needed to work the umpcoming PIAA playoffs.......I'm proud to be an umpire and I take my responsiblity very serious...I believe that being an umpire is a honorable avocation....

But not all feel that way....For example there are posters here on this very site that will not have dinner with an umpire....not because that umpire is not a good person, or a good baseball person or parent or father.,,,,but just because that person is an umpire..and I guess I am one of the persons who can not separate the umpire part of me from the father/person/son/husband in me.. ......so not a lot of answers, but a lot of questions that we need to work on together.......

Thanks for letting me vent my .02........

piaa,

Nice to come out of a "fun" meeting at work to find an intelligent reply here.

Never appologize for a long response when its needed. I think you did a fantastic job with what you said. An issue such as this cant be discussed in a series of 4 line posts anyway.

You are right about the frustration being on both sides. After our discussion here yesterday, I called one of the gentlemen i know here who is certified to umpire, we didn't have much time to talk though as he was off to pick up one of his sons from practice. He also voiced similar concerns about the current state of officating as you did. (And continued his ongoing guilt trip on me to get me into the "blues").

I can understand your financial concerns involved in all this also. The cost of giving your kids the opportunity to play athletics at a high level just keeps spiraling upwards.

While i am very glad that in your area, you feel that new umpires would get a "relatively" quick shot at doing varsity games (after an appropriate time proving themselves at the Frosh/JV level). I'm afraid to say the same is not true here from my observations and discussions with some friends. I hope to talk to my "buddy" soon and see if I can get some deeper insight into it.

I also want to ask him about the insurance thing, I openly admit i didnt realize you had to do that as an individual. I "assumed" that would come as part of being a certified umpire and belonging to whatever state affiliation is required in your area. Thank you for bringing that one to my attention.

You are also right about the right number of different organiztions out there that need officals to do games. The effect of that issue is less here, because NH doesnt have many AAU teams and No USSSA teams that I know of. There are a few towns doing PONY. As far as baseball goes, outside of the school season we primarily have LL/Cal Ripken, Babe Ruth, Some Senior Babe and American Legion.

Its a shame that you know people that feel they cant even relate to a guy because he umps.
My sons first LL All-star coach is into it now, both baseball and football. He is a great guy.
There are four gentlemmen in my town now that i think are all very good umpires, and to my knowledge at the moment, only 1 of them is consistently getting varisty games. I see them do Babe Ruth & Senior Babe and i think they do a very god job. Hopefully they will break thru soon at the HS level too.

When my son is done college, I will most likely return to coaching the young ones again and I plan to pay back a bit by umpiring too.
I have already done some refereeing here locally at the 5th & 6th grade basketball level.
(and i have faced the wrath of my neighbors for some calls...payback can be a @#$%^...lol)

Would love to chat more on this with you, but its off to a conference call now.

I am very glad to have had this discussion with you as it will make me a better umpire when the time comes.

Good point piaa ump....I think more often than not, the work umpires do goes without gratitude. That's a shame and I'll be more aware of it going forward.

One thing we have done in our youth leagues in our town is a zero tolorance towards umps. If you argue a call and get tossed,you have a one game suspension. If you get tossed again, you are done for the year and go in front of a review board for permanant expulsion. Now I've seen it more at the upper levels ( HS and up ) that it's more of a control thing with some umps. They feel that no call can be argued. Now thier are times when this is true but others when another feild ump or even the ump behind the plate will keep the call the same just to keep the other umpire from getting mad. It's almost a double edge sword for the umps doing games where they might not have the same partner . PIAA , do you have the same partner in your games or do you get different ones for each. I ask this because you could have a different opinion on you co-hort. Just like before you can adjust somewhat to every ump out their, but to completely take the game away from the kids it just wrong and these are the umps that should have to be reveiwed.

Beez, Should have had different wording. Can't dog on my own birth state baseball fans...

Ruste,
For the most part we do not have the choice of whom we work with although some assignors will book a certain pair of umpires if their availabilty works...for example...any weekend games I am guaranteed to work with my regular summer ball partner as we are both off and available......

as to your assertion that we will keep to the call just to keep the other umpire from getting mad, that is not the case....we are not allowed by rule to over-rule another umpire. We may provide additional information that might allow him to change his call, but only if he asks for it.....

So if an field umpire has called a runner out at first and the coach felt the first baseman pulled his foot, if the base umpire feels he got the call right, he does not have to come to me for help, nor can I overule him ..........

Rule book does not allow what you suggest.....

PIAA_Ump
I agree with you 100%. I am 44 years old and have been officiating baseball for over 20 years. I am not a member of the local H.S Association, simply because I can not make a 4:00pm game during the week. Does this mean that I am not competent enough to work H.S. games, No I just do not choose to register with the Local H.S. Association. As far as the whole Strike zone issues. I let the game dictate what my strike zone will be, do I change it, no it is the same for both teams. Teams know what strike zone they will get from me when I walk up to the field, I am a Low ball umpire that calls the corners of the plate. One thing I have a hard time calling is that letter High fast ball for a strike. I usually call from the ******s and below. I look at it this way. Was that A pitch that I liked called for a strike when I played. But everyone has been around the game to know that the players need to adapt to the umpire that is calling balls and strikes behind the plate.

Just a little sense of humor. Something I heard over the weekend. I was cleaning off the plate after a runner scored and I heard a parent in the stands from the team that was losing big, as I was dusting off the plate he yelled to me to turn the plate over and read the instructions on how to call balls and strikes. I just about lost it I was laughing so hard. I then walked over to the fence and the father was getting ready to leave. I asked him were he was going. He said you’re throwing me out of the game aren’t you. I said no I just wanted to tell you that that was the most original line I have heard in my 20 year of umpiring and thanked him for the laugh.

I would love to see younger people umpiring the game for the right reasons. There are too many people that do it just for the money and those are the ones that you seem to have the most problems with, they do not take the time that you or I do to make ourselves better buy attending clinics and studying the rules of the game. You should be commended for you years of service and for truly doing for the love of the game. I know that is why I am there, because it certainly is not going to make me Millions.

Continuing where piaa left off. Their is some procedures that need to be followed.

You have to ask the ump who made the call to ask for help. So in piaa's example if the coach comes out of the dugout and goes to the plate guy he will not get any help at all. First rule of thumb is go to the ump who made the call.

It is solely his decision to decide when and if to get help. It is not the other umpire role to overturn a call.

In our association, we have a little non-verbal clue, if I have some information that my partner needs to know, I simple take my hat off. It is still his decision to ask for help.

Also, some coaches will want to "push" the limits of an ump. Take piaa's example.

Coach comes out and goes to the base ump, "He was off the bag, he was off the bag, get some help."

So the base ump goes to the plate guy and says "What did you see?'. Plate umps says "I got what you got" The base ump tells the coach the call stands. Coach says ok and walks back to his dugout.

A few innings later there is another close call, the coach runs out to the base ump and wants him to get help, again. This is bad game mangement on the umpires part.

That is why it is very, very, rare for any ump to get help on a judgement call.(fair/foul; safe/out;etc)

NOW if there is a rules interpertation, that is a totally different situation. BY ALL MEANS, if a coach is questioning a rules interpretation and if the ump can not explain, support or give an example to satisfy the coach, go get help from your partner.

Believe it or not WE DO WANT TO GET THE PLAY RIGHT. However, we will not be intemidated into changing a call.

Pirate Fan,

I do have a bit of a problem with your last post. I agree some coaches want to question a lot of calls, but you explanation of this can easily be looked at as an excuse for not working with your partner and making sure you do get the calls right.

The impression you post gave me was if I ask for help on this play, this coach will be out here all game asking for us to look for help from each other.

If the play you described was indeed a close play, and the coach comes out to you and asks you to ask your partner for help, what is harm? If you and your partner discuss it, make the call and the coach returns to the bench.
Sounds to me like thats a good scenario.

Your description

"
Coach comes out and goes to the base ump, "He was off the bag, he was off the bag, get some help."

So the base ump goes to the plate guy and says "What did you see?'. Plate umps says "I got what you got" The base ump tells the coach the call stands. Coach says ok and walks back to his dugout.

A few innings later there is another close call, the coach runs out to the base ump and wants him to get help, again. This is bad game mangement on the umpires part.

That is why it is very, very, rare for any ump to get help on a judgement call.(fair/foul; safe/out;etc)
"

A few innings later......that doesnt sound to me like a coach challenging your authority to call the game. I think you may have been trying to iilustrate a situation where the coach would now have you asking for help a couple of times an inning.

I can see where that could become an issue,
but its a very poor excuse for not asking for help at all. The idea that an umpire would be reluctant to ask for help because it MAY become a problem during the game is not appropriate in my book. While I can understand that a coach might try to take advantage of your willingness to ask, that ssue can be handled later when & if it becomes a problem. There is only one issue that needs to be determined at that point, was the call right? If asking the other umpire for help obtains that goal, then you should do it. Let the rest of the game come to you in time.

I do love your signaling to each other though.
I truely hope all umpires have developed a similar subtle mechanism to communicate that to their partner(s).

The trend at the MLB level over the past few years is a healthy one in my view. I always hated this idea that umpires could/would not discuss things for fear of showing up a collegue.

I'm not in a hurry to leave the game, I want the player's on both teams to have the benefit of an officiating crew that wants to work together and get the calls right as much as possible. If that means you have to ask for help on a few plays in a game, I dont see that as huge problem.

To all the Moms out there


HAVE A GREAT MOTHER'S DAY!!!!

I have alway been taught to keep a consistant strike zone. why would a pitcher need to earn it? i might understand it in the bigs, but high school? why cant we all just be friends

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dragonbaseball:
PIAA_Ump


Just a little sense of humor. Something I heard over the weekend. I was cleaning off the plate after a runner scored and I heard a parent in the stands from the team that was losing big, as I was dusting off the plate he yelled to me to turn the plate over and read the instructions on how to call balls and strikes. I just about lost it I was laughing so hard. I then walked over to the fence and the father was getting ready to leave. I asked him were he was going. He said you’re throwing me out of the game aren’t you. I said no I just wanted to tell you that that was the most original line I have heard in my 20 year of umpiring and thanked him for the laugh.

QUOTE]

go to heckledepot.com, its on there