Girardi

By all accounts, they are a year ahead of schedule. #BAFFLING

Last week Girardi was saying ten years in one place may be enough. Unless the Nationals job is too good to turn down I expect him to do ESPN for a year then look for a new team.

I’m surprised, too. 

Read the article, they want a manager who uses more of advanced statistics.

Wondering if the Reds are watching the news today? 

I'm not surprised.  My dad watched every Yankee game he possibly could.  He passed in 2012 but he really respected Girardi, he said "Joe doesn't care how much the guy is making, if he aint performing Joe's gonna pull 'em, gotta respect that."

Have to wonder if that wasn't the mindset behind this. They are billing this as the team of youth, can't have an old iron-horse at the helm who might bench Judge! (how many articles were written about that?)  Girardi is a well respected  dad type of a guy, I think the Yankees are looking for the cool Uncle type. Wouldn't be surprised if half the Yankees have beards and pony-tails next year.

Ugh. 

What made Joe Girardi a success cost him his job.

http://nypost.com/2017/10/26/w...ss-cost-him-his-job/

TPM posted:

Read the article, they want a manager who uses more of advanced statistics.

TPM - That is what the article said.   Do you really believe it for a second?  Seriously? Things are very fishy in Denmark.

fenwaysouth posted:

TPM posted:

Read the article, they want a manager who uses more of advanced statistics.

TPM - That is what the article said.   Do you really believe it for a second?  Seriously? Things are very fishy in Denmark.

Yes I do. If you read my post in another topic, the game is changing, younger players need different approaches. 

I love Girardi, but its a young man's game now and that includes managers as well.

TPM posted:

fenwaysouth posted:

TPM posted:

Read the article, they want a manager who uses more of advanced statistics.

TPM - That is what the article said.   Do you really believe it for a second?  Seriously? Things are very fishy in Denmark.

Yes I do. If you read my post in another topic, the game is changing, younger players need different approaches. 

I love Girardi, but its a young man's game now and that includes managers as well.

 

 

Or a cool uncle?

JMO, on paper, yankees had the better team, but the Astros were armed with better statistics.

Nothing to do with anyones uncle.

The article I posted said the players were tuning out Girardi’s old school intensity.

I don't believe for a minute this had to do with statistics.

Time will tell when they reveal their successor.  I think the front office is trying to shift the whole team image. The die hard fans of old that helped build this dynasty don't matter, only young blood can save the franchise.  I'm guessing the new guy will be young,  already proven to be loyal to the office, and they won't bench star players in a slump.

Keep in mind, this will also be the first time George Steinbrenner isn't involved in the manager decision. Those two boys of his have something to prove. Let's just sit back and enjoy the show.

I think the Nats cutting Dusty Baker loose by not renewing his contract had a similar feel to Girardi. Both programs truly want to go in a different direction and one that is decidedly grounded in advanced performance metrics.  Girardi had a great run with the Yankees, but I suspect it had simply run its course and it will work out for the NYY.

I always felt that Dusty was an "oh snap" pick-up in response to how horribly the Nats screwed up on Bud Black (I was excited he, briefly, looked like he'd be the Nats' manager). Dusty is rightly a legend. But I also think his "old school" ways rightly or wrongly contributed to a perception that he was not going to be the person to snap the Nats' documented post-season slump (nascent curse). I also think his keeping Jayson Werth in the line-up after his injury truly hurt the team offensively and defensively, and simply put--it could not be justified outside a light of loyalty.

As for the Nats picking up Girardi, I don't know if that will work out...but I do know if they take a pass, there will be a whole lot of 'splaining to do!.

He was, arguably, deserving of the Manager of the Year Award.

Old school will contribute to the decline of baseball.  Kids want to have fun!

RJM, that article seems really insightful.  I'm not doubting that it is on point but it also seems a bit odd that every point is made as if it were fact - I'm nowhere near that market and don't know this writer but it's hard to imagine anyone having that much detailed inside connection and insight.

Maybe I'm just becoming accustomed to the crap journalism going on in the rest of the country/world.

The White Sox need to go after him. He's not old school. He took this team further than they would have gone this year. 

Hinch and Roberts are the poster boys of the "modern" manager - those who work closely with the front office, instead of the old "my way or the highway, just get me the players" type. No one really knows what the conversations were during the season at both clubs, so it is hard to really know what happended. There are some parallels to Mattingly, as the Dodgers wanted to go in a fresh new direction. The problem with NY is that it is such a fish bowl, can you imagine that the papers/talk radio would be like today if Roberts was managing the Yankees and he pulled Hill early... Its going to be a tough job to fill.  

I thought Girardi out-managed Terry Francona this year and that is saying a lot.  This seems like a knucklehead move and I doubt Cashman had anything to do with it.  If he did, I would be surprised.

Not to state the obvious, but that makes 3 managers of playoff teams fired before the WS is over.  Has that ever happened before?

I guess you *could* say the Nats and Red Sox underachieved... But that’s setting the bar awfully high. I can’t think of any measure by which you could justify parting with Girardi.  The Yankees have the best winning percentage in MLB over his ten-year tenure (and they didn’t have the best rosters in the game for most, maybe all, of those years).

As for old school versus new:  isn’t it generally accepted that while stats will hold true over large samples, any five- or seven- game series is largely random? (I’m a noncombatant in the old- school vs sabermetrics debate btw.) 

cabbagedad posted:

RJM, that article seems really insightful.  I'm not doubting that it is on point but it also seems a bit odd that every point is made as if it were fact - I'm nowhere near that market and don't know this writer but it's hard to imagine anyone having that much detailed inside connection and insight.

Maybe I'm just becoming accustomed to the crap journalism going on in the rest of the country/world.

I'll second that Cabbagedad.  I thought the article was very insightful about Girardi's style, and I think they are onto many truths there.   

RJM - the article explained quite a bit.  I enjoyed it.

However,  I had to take a step back up when I saw it was the NY Post.   The Post positions themselves as a different kind of journalism and their front page headlines are hilarious.   Their sportswriters are pretty good however the paper as a whole loses a little credibility sometimes.  You catch my drift.

The NY Post has a long and storied history:

Talk is.....it's about MONEY.

The Post has a good sports page. The rest of the paper is like the football betting cards, “for entertainment purposes only.”

RJM posted:

The article I posted said the players were tuning out Girardi’s old school intensity.

Yes. Times  have changed. In business it is the same, those oldschool authoritative no bullshit kind of bosses now have a hard time in big companies too. You have to get along in these days, especially with the high paid star players. If you  pick a fight with a mike trout or chris sale you are going to lose as a manager, easier to replace a 3m  manager than a 30m  pitcher.

If successful managers are fired it is often a conflict with one or more stars. I heard somewhere farrel was fired because he didn't get along with price and some others.

Fascinating , each east coast MLB team that played in the '17 Postseason fired it's manager. Nats, Yankees, Sox ......And Girardi was a single win away from a World Series .

Dominik85 posted:

RJM posted:

The article I posted said the players were tuning out Girardi’s old school intensity.

Yes. Times  have changed. In business it is the same, those oldschool authoritative no bullshit kind of bosses now have a hard time in big companies too. You have to get along in these days, especially with the high paid star players. If you  pick a fight with a mike trout or chris sale you are going to lose as a manager, easier to replace a 3m  manager than a 30m  pitcher.

If successful managers are fired it is often a conflict with one or more stars. I heard somewhere farrel was fired because he didn't get along with price and some others.

Girardi was let go by Loria because he took Hanley Ramirez to the woodshed.

But I think it's just a case of the  "times they are a changin".

Dominik85 posted:

RJM posted:

The article I posted said the players were tuning out Girardi’s old school intensity.

Yes. Times  have changed. In business it is the same, those oldschool authoritative no bullshit kind of bosses now have a hard time in big companies too. You have to get along in these days, especially with the high paid star players. If you  pick a fight with a mike trout or chris sale you are going to lose as a manager, easier to replace a 3m  manager than a 30m  pitcher.

If successful managers are fired it is often a conflict with one or more stars. I heard somewhere farrel was fired because he didn't get along with price and some others.

One of the reasons Farrell was fired is he didn't confront player’s (especially Price) behavior. Other reasons are 1) he’s a terrible in game manager and 2) the Red Sox became unlikeable as a team and individuals and tv viewership dropped 15% in 2017.

Red Sox fans see the team as a bunch of immature whiners led by David Overpriced. It’s about 2-1 fans hope Overpriced opts out of his contract after next season. Aside from underperforming he’s just such an unlikeable person. You don’t assault a fan favorite announcer/Hall of Famer and refuse to apologize. Overpriced assaulted Dennis Eckersley for saying “Yuck” to Rodriguez’s stat line in a rehab assignment. I thought “yuck” was conservative and polite given Rodriguez got shelled by AAA hitters.

i believe Farrell’s job was on the line when he didn’t intervene (he was present), refused to apologize to Eckersley on behalf of the team and defended Overpriced. TV ratings immediately dropped. 

Despite standing behind his players I believe Farrell lost the team. He couldn’t motivate them. Most of the team underperformed. I found them in watchable. The second half of the season I checked the score about the seventh inning to see if I wanted to watch scoring highlights and the rest of the game. It seemed if the Sox got down three runs they threw in the towel.

StrainedOblique posted:

Fascinating , each east coast MLB team that played in the '17 Postseason fired it's manager. Nats, Yankees, Sox ......And Girardi was a single win away from a World Series .

While Maddon is staying, the Cubs are doing nearly a complete overhaul of their coaching staff.  On the other extreme, so are the Giants.  Plenty of local controversy about the getting rid of Righetti (moving him to another position) and Gardner (moving him to another position in the organization.)

Both were mainstays of what probably was right at the top of staffs from 2010 to 2016 (through the All-Star game in 2016 I mean).  When one looks at the Giants history from 2010 to 2017, when they scored 4 runs or more, they won...up to July of 2016.  From July of 2016 to the end of 2017, they rarely scored 4 runs, lost the games they won for close to 6 years and ended going from the penthouse to the outhouse.

Kind of  a headscratcher for sure how some of the decisions get rationalized.

His demeanor might be old-school, but anyone named the "Grinder with the Binder" must at least read stats, no?  

Also, he has a '20 shortstop.  Could Joe Girardi be lurking on these boards?  

I like Giardi, but he just doesn't have baseball cache.

OskiSD posted:

His demeanor might be old-school, but anyone named the "Grinder with the Binder" must at least read stats, no?  

Also, he has a '20 shortstop.  Could Joe Girardi be lurking on these boards?  

That would be cool!  I sincerely doubt he was googling baseball scholarships and or recruiting though, so probably not here, but that would be cool!

CaCO3Girl posted:

OskiSD posted:

His demeanor might be old-school, but anyone named the "Grinder with the Binder" must at least read stats, no?  

Also, he has a '20 shortstop.  Could Joe Girardi be lurking on these boards?  

That would be cool!  I sincerely doubt he was googling baseball scholarships and or recruiting though, so probably not here, but that would be cool!

Would be comforting though to know that even Joe Girardi needs advice and support :-)

OskiSD posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

OskiSD posted:

His demeanor might be old-school, but anyone named the "Grinder with the Binder" must at least read stats, no?  

Also, he has a '20 shortstop.  Could Joe Girardi be lurking on these boards?  

That would be cool!  I sincerely doubt he was googling baseball scholarships and or recruiting though, so probably not here, but that would be cool!

Would be comforting though to know that even Joe Girardi needs advice and support :-)

I doubt he does though.  Now a BS filter, THAT would be handy for him to filter out all the sunshine and find the truth in how interested they are in his kid.  But advice?  Doubt it.

We all could use that filter.  I must say I have been impressed with the number of "baseball people" on the board (as opposed to me, who is just an informed fan and a dad :-))  Folks who know a hell of a lot more than me, and have been involved in the game somehow.  That's a source of comfort.  

infielddad posted:

StrainedOblique posted:

Fascinating , each east coast MLB team that played in the '17 Postseason fired it's manager. Nats, Yankees, Sox ......And Girardi was a single win away from a World Series .

While Maddon is staying, the Cubs are doing nearly a complete overhaul of their coaching staff.  On the other extreme, so are the Giants.  Plenty of local controversy about the getting rid of Righetti (moving him to another position) and Gardner (moving him to another position in the organization.)

Both were mainstays of what probably was right at the top of staffs from 2010 to 2016 (through the All-Star game in 2016 I mean).  When one looks at the Giants history from 2010 to 2017, when they scored 4 runs or more, they won...up to July of 2016.  From July of 2016 to the end of 2017, they rarely scored 4 runs, lost the games they won for close to 6 years and ended going from the penthouse to the outhouse.

Kind of  a headscratcher for sure how some of the decisions get rationalized.

 

I think this is the whole idea about the game changing.

Cardinals kept Matheny, who IMO is a terrible manager, but let the pitching coach go. He was a Dave Duncan disciple, old school by modern day standards. 

They just don't want that philosophy anymore, neither do many  top college baseball programs.

The game has become bigger and faster. Many can adapt, others cant.

Florida State Fan posted:

I like Giardi, but he just doesn't have baseball cache.

What is baseball cache?