They can recoup that salary by increasing attendance. By my calculations, it would take about 750+/- in additional tickets for each home game to breakeven. Not insurmountable given this year's poor attendance.
No one's scholarship was actually pulled. Just threats. AD's office stepped in and quashed that.
Goff certainly has a clause stating that he has to be searching for a job. If he ever wants to coach again, he will get back in the game quickly.
Teaching Elder posted:No one's scholarship was actually pulled. Just threats. AD's office stepped in and quashed that.
Goff certainly has a clause stating that he has to be searching for a job. If he ever wants to coach again, he will get back in the game quickly.
The threat itself is an NCAA violation though. I'm surprised they wouldn't go along with it...maybe they can get that contract torn up over a violation.
hsbaseball101 posted:Teaching Elder posted:No one's scholarship was actually pulled. Just threats. AD's office stepped in and quashed that.
Goff certainly has a clause stating that he has to be searching for a job. If he ever wants to coach again, he will get back in the game quickly.
The threat itself is an NCAA violation though. I'm surprised they wouldn't go along with it...maybe they can get that contract torn up over a violation.
Surely the contract has something of a morality/policy clause in it. The mere fact that he stated the scholarships would be pulled has to be in violation of the Alabama's policies and procedures, thus he was dismissed WITH cause.
Alumni who support programs heavily often threaten to pull the plug if they are not seeing results or if they hear complaints.
Could possibly be that he was already under scrutiny.
We don't know the details, but I am assuming it had less to do with pulling any scholarships because the coach has to communicate to his boss and compliance before he makes these types of decisions.
TPM posted:Alumni who support programs heavily often threaten to pull the plug if they are not seeing results or if they hear complaints.
Could possibly be that he was already under scrutiny.
We don't know the details, but I am assuming it had less to do with pulling any scholarships because the coach has to communicate to his boss and compliance before he makes these types of decisions.
Um, if he did actually communicate to his boss and or compliance wouldn't they have told him "you can't do that"?
Not necessarily. Compliance, yes. The AD probably would have just said "Don't get caught."
Happens all the time in NCAA baseball.
Obviously it's time to take these power five type schools and call them what they are - pro ball ( without the money). Change the rules similar to pro ball. Free agency, contracts, no trade clauses, etc. let these kids sell there wares and maybe get an education mixed in somewhere.
Golfman25 posted:Obviously it's time to take these power five type schools and call them what they are - pro ball ( without the money). Change the rules similar to pro ball. Free agency, contracts, no trade clauses, etc. let these kids sell there wares and maybe get an education mixed in somewhere.
My son went to one of those power schools and had a great college experience and earned his degree and the experience was more about a great support system and learning to become a responsible adult.
No where near pro ball.
TPM posted:Golfman25 posted:Obviously it's time to take these power five type schools and call them what they are - pro ball ( without the money). Change the rules similar to pro ball. Free agency, contracts, no trade clauses, etc. let these kids sell there wares and maybe get an education mixed in somewhere.
My son went to one of those power schools and had a great college experience and earned his degree and the experience was more about a great support system and learning to become a responsible adult.
No where near pro ball.
I agree. Pro ball is so much more of a grind with little other than baseball to keep a player occupied. College baseball is much more of an experience with benefits other than maybe moving up a level someday.
You both missed the point. You're right in that there is an experience to the college experience. But when it comes to rosters, it's worse than pro ball because the kids have almost no rights. They are recruited early and then dumped at the alter when things don't work out. Then there is a variety of rules which prevents there freedom to play for those who may want them. At least on the MLB you have contracts and free agency rules. Now most schools do take the student part seriously. But the top dog eat dog schools seem to be forgetting that. So they may as well stop pretending.
Golfman25 posted:You both missed the point. You're right in that there is an experience to the college experience. But when it comes to rosters, it's worse than pro ball because the kids have almost no rights. They are recruited early and then dumped at the alter when things don't work out. Then there is a variety of rules which prevents there freedom to play for those who may want them. At least on the MLB you have contracts and free agency rules. Now most schools do take the student part seriously. But the top dog eat dog schools seem to be forgetting that. So they may as well stop pretending.
This has nothing to do with MLB.
Do you think that a first or second year minor league free agent has rights (more of a comparison to college players). Do you think that drafted players have rights? No you sign a contract for 6 years and you can be let go at anytime. You are there one day and the next day your possessions are left at the door.
Realistically, it really doesn't matter when one committs. If you don't perform, you don't get to keep your job, just like in pro ball.
These programs hire coaches and now paying some of them millions of dollars. They are paid to coach and paid to WIN. If you have 35 men on a roster and 10 can't get the job done, it's not going to happen that you will get very far. You will have to replace those players.
Everyone wants to play for these type of programs, but many have no idea just what d1 baseball entails, let alone playing for the top tier programs.
And let's not forget that even at these programs, it's about going to class, staying eligible. These head coaches work real hard at helping you setting that as a priority.
It's OK to agree to disagree.
Golfman25 posted:You both missed the point. You're right in that there is an experience to the college experience. But when it comes to rosters, it's worse than pro ball because the kids have almost no rights. They are recruited early and then dumped at the alter when things don't work out. Then there is a variety of rules which prevents there freedom to play for those who may want them. At least on the MLB you have contracts and free agency rules. Now most schools do take the student part seriously. But the top dog eat dog schools seem to be forgetting that. So they may as well stop pretending.
Golfman, just to set the record straight...Pro players do NOT have any rights until they get on a 40 man roster, and then it is only thru the end of the current season, unless player has a multi year contract. MLB Players Association only protects those on an MLB roster, & only for the time they were/are on the roster. Period.
Minor leaguers have nothing! (except the occassional care package of oatmeal raisin cookies from Mom! )
baseballmom posted:Golfman25 posted:You both missed the point. You're right in that there is an experience to the college experience. But when it comes to rosters, it's worse than pro ball because the kids have almost no rights. They are recruited early and then dumped at the alter when things don't work out. Then there is a variety of rules which prevents there freedom to play for those who may want them. At least on the MLB you have contracts and free agency rules. Now most schools do take the student part seriously. But the top dog eat dog schools seem to be forgetting that. So they may as well stop pretending.
Golfman, just to set the record straight...Pro players do NOT have any rights until they get on a 40 man roster, and then it is only thru the end of the current season, unless player has a multi year contract. MLB Players Association only protects those on an MLB roster, & only for the time they were/are on the roster. Period.
Minor leaguers have nothing! (except the occassional care package of oatmeal raisin cookies from Mom!
)
Yes and no. Certainly the MLB guys have it better than the minor league guys. But at the end of the day if/when they are let go they can can go play for another team. College kids can't.
TPM posted:Golfman25 posted:You both missed the point. You're right in that there is an experience to the college experience. But when it comes to rosters, it's worse than pro ball because the kids have almost no rights. They are recruited early and then dumped at the alter when things don't work out. Then there is a variety of rules which prevents there freedom to play for those who may want them. At least on the MLB you have contracts and free agency rules. Now most schools do take the student part seriously. But the top dog eat dog schools seem to be forgetting that. So they may as well stop pretending.
This has nothing to do with MLB.
Do you think that a first or second year minor league free agent has rights (more of a comparison to college players). Do you think that drafted players have rights? No you sign a contract for 6 years and you can be let go at anytime. You are there one day and the next day your possessions are left at the door.
Realistically, it really doesn't matter when one committs. If you don't perform, you don't get to keep your job, just like in pro ball.
These programs hire coaches and now paying some of them millions of dollars. They are paid to coach and paid to WIN. If you have 35 men on a roster and 10 can't get the job done, it's not going to happen that you will get very far. You will have to replace those players.
Everyone wants to play for these type of programs, but many have no idea just what d1 baseball entails, let alone playing for the top tier programs.
And let's not forget that even at these programs, it's about going to class, staying eligible. These head coaches work real hard at helping you setting that as a priority.
It's OK to agree to disagree.
You're basically making my point. They are there to win and nothing else. The education is at best a byproduct. At least pros can play for another team if they aren't wanted by their current team.
Golfman25 posted:TPM posted:Golfman25 posted:You both missed the point. You're right in that there is an experience to the college experience. But when it comes to rosters, it's worse than pro ball because the kids have almost no rights. They are recruited early and then dumped at the alter when things don't work out. Then there is a variety of rules which prevents there freedom to play for those who may want them. At least on the MLB you have contracts and free agency rules. Now most schools do take the student part seriously. But the top dog eat dog schools seem to be forgetting that. So they may as well stop pretending.
This has nothing to do with MLB.
Do you think that a first or second year minor league free agent has rights (more of a comparison to college players). Do you think that drafted players have rights? No you sign a contract for 6 years and you can be let go at anytime. You are there one day and the next day your possessions are left at the door.
Realistically, it really doesn't matter when one committs. If you don't perform, you don't get to keep your job, just like in pro ball.
These programs hire coaches and now paying some of them millions of dollars. They are paid to coach and paid to WIN. If you have 35 men on a roster and 10 can't get the job done, it's not going to happen that you will get very far. You will have to replace those players.
Everyone wants to play for these type of programs, but many have no idea just what d1 baseball entails, let alone playing for the top tier programs.
And let's not forget that even at these programs, it's about going to class, staying eligible. These head coaches work real hard at helping you setting that as a priority.
It's OK to agree to disagree.
You're basically making my point. They are there to win and nothing else. The education is at best a byproduct. At least pros can play for another team if they aren't wanted by their current team.
That's not necessarily true. There are parents here whose players got released but not necessarily picked up by another team.
College players can definitely play at another school. Coaches contact D2, D3 coaches to find places for their players to play.
Players are in programs to develop and be a part of a team, not all situations end badly, but sometimes, often times, some players arent team players. Some just don't buy into the team philosophy. And many don't adhere to team rules.
Golfman wrote:
"At least pros can play for another team if they aren't wanted by their current team."
Nope, not necessarily a fact. Player has to perform to get on a roster anywhere! If he continues to develop, he may be moved up. Depends on what the "market" will bear. If a pro team "needs" what a released player has, then he's picked up for however long, till front office decides there's a better model for a cheaper price, oft times. But with 1500 drafted every June, ...plus all the other released, waived or free agents...chances get that much slimmer...
May I suggest you read cabbagedad's sons' baseball story, posted a few weeks ago. He transferred 4 or 5 times, but where ever he landed, he got a shot, made the team. That boy was determined to not take "no" for an answer...dug deep & made it happen. Very inspiring journey, lots of yo-yo-ing, injury, etc. But his thinking was where there is a will, there's a way. Not too many young men have that kind of burning desire! Perseverance, mental fortitude, confidence in one's ability to contribute, love of the game...whatever adjective you choose to use.
Sometimes it's a choice the player must face...accept the "cut" & hang up the cleats, or move forward in pursuit of playing "someplace" while getting an education.
There is no "one size fits all" in College or the pros.
Golfman is trying to say if your D1 team doesn't want you....let's say because they have two other SS that are doing well, that kid can't transfer and play for another D1 without sitting.
Could he go D2 or other such place, yup, But he's sure if he sticks with D1 and shows his stuff he can go in the draft. But he can't do that.
If an MiLB player was in the same predicament he could transfer teams.
CaCO3Girl posted:Golfman is trying to say if your D1 team doesn't want you....let's say because they have two other SS that are doing well, that kid can't transfer and play for another D1 without sitting.
Could he go D2 or other such place, yup, But he's sure if he sticks with D1 and shows his stuff he can go in the draft. But he can't do that.
If an MiLB player was in the same predicament he could transfer teams.
And he would be correct.
And he would be ignoring a key thing--a LOT of D1 talent could sign an MiLB contract today, or go play at a different level tomorrow. And they would have options. And...
Never mind.
So how prevelent is all this? reading all this it seems like it must happen dozens of times a season, but when you realize we are all debating one situation and one pretty poor coach, it's hard to see a trend there?
Iowamom23 posted:So how prevelent is all this? reading all this it seems like it must happen dozens of times a season, but when you realize we are all debating one situation and one pretty poor coach, it's hard to see a trend there?
There is a poster on here called Bballman, his son just finished up his degree and was able to stay on the baseball team as a pitcher the whole time. However, he has posted often that it is not usual that a player spends all 4 years on the ONE team. It happens, but it's not what happens to most.
draft, quits, transfers, flunks out, injury, coaching change, coach says he can't use you.....etc.
CaCO3Girl posted:Iowamom23 posted:So how prevelent is all this? reading all this it seems like it must happen dozens of times a season, but when you realize we are all debating one situation and one pretty poor coach, it's hard to see a trend there?
There is a poster on here called Bballman, his son just finished up his degree and was able to stay on the baseball team as a pitcher the whole time. However, he has posted often that it is not usual that a player spends all 4 years on the ONE team. It happens, but it's not what happens to most.
draft, quits, transfers, flunks out, injury, coaching change, coach says he can't use you.....etc.
His son attended D2, and in some D2 programs there is a coming and going each year.
In many D2 programs, most do not get baseball money (9 scholarships) and they can carry more than 35. Most end up getting money from other sources, nothing to do with athletic scholarships, so if baseball doesn't work out, they still have money to attend school.
If you study rosters, there are very few seniors. This happens for a variety of reasons, but most realize baseball isn't in their future, their interest changes, or if they don't play a significant role, they lost their athletic money.
Happens all of the time. Every year at this time.
Golfman25 posted:Never mind.
Well at least Matt said you were correct. Im sure there are a thousand variables and permentations but your premise was sound.
baseballmom posted:CaCO3Girl posted:Golfman is trying to say if your D1 team doesn't want you....let's say because they have two other SS that are doing well, that kid can't transfer and play for another D1 without sitting.
Could he go D2 or other such place, yup, But he's sure if he sticks with D1 and shows his stuff he can go in the draft. But he can't do that.
If an MiLB player was in the same predicament he could transfer teams.
Oh, ye of little to NO knowledge, much less experience!
1. First principle in College search is DO YOUR HOMEWORK! Academics are the priority. Playing time, secondary. Learning never stops, be flexible, stay focused, develop a plan & be prepared for the unexpected...READ, read, & re-read all the resources & fundamentals found here under Recruiting Tips, pros & cons of Pro Ball, etc.
2. If D-1 "doesn't want you', there are options..D-2, D-3, sit out a year....
3. Once a player signs a Minor League Uniform Players Contract, the MLB Team owns that players "rights" for 7 years. He does what he's told to do, goes where he's told to go, plays at the level designated by the front office...The Team makes ALL decisions, whether to promote, demote, DFA, release, etc...players have NO input.... (Sounds like College ball...)
4. NO SUCH thing as Milb'er..."he could transfer teams." That's another, "Do Your Homework"!
Maybe, CaCo, you ought to read MLB rules. Last I read it, it was about 303 pages... you can download or copy.
This has become monotonous.
It has become monotonous. This thread has turned into just internet bashing. Golfman had a point, perhaps we aren't using the correct phrases but he had a point. But people are too busy explaining a million other variables to agree that he had a point, other than Matt.
CaCO3Girl posted:baseballmom posted:CaCO3Girl posted:Golfman is trying to say if your D1 team doesn't want you....let's say because they have two other SS that are doing well, that kid can't transfer and play for another D1 without sitting.
Could he go D2 or other such place, yup, But he's sure if he sticks with D1 and shows his stuff he can go in the draft. But he can't do that.
If an MiLB player was in the same predicament he could transfer teams.
Oh, ye of little to NO knowledge, much less experience!
1. First principle in College search is DO YOUR HOMEWORK! Academics are the priority. Playing time, secondary. Learning never stops, be flexible, stay focused, develop a plan & be prepared for the unexpected...READ, read, & re-read all the resources & fundamentals found here under Recruiting Tips, pros & cons of Pro Ball, etc.
2. If D-1 "doesn't want you', there are options..D-2, D-3, sit out a year....
3. Once a player signs a Minor League Uniform Players Contract, the MLB Team owns that players "rights" for 7 years. He does what he's told to do, goes where he's told to go, plays at the level designated by the front office...The Team makes ALL decisions, whether to promote, demote, DFA, release, etc...players have NO input.... (Sounds like College ball...)
4. NO SUCH thing as Milb'er..."he could transfer teams." That's another, "Do Your Homework"!
Maybe, CaCo, you ought to read MLB rules. Last I read it, it was about 303 pages... you can download or copy.
This has become monotonous.
It has become monotonous. This thread has turned into just internet bashing. Golfman had a point, perhaps we aren't using the correct phrases but he had a point. But people are too busy explaining a million other variables to agree that he had a point, other than Matt.
+1 for baseballmoms post, she probably knows more than anyone in this post about what goes on in proball. You can't compare the two. Besides reading the rules, why not take an unofficial visit to a d1 program, ask to meet with one of the coaches, ask about early recruiting, cutting scholarships, etc. Go to the source.
People are trying to help you to understand the process and what happens.
If you don't like the answers why bother to continue the discussion?
baseballmom posted:
…Maybe, CaCo, you ought to read MLB rules. Last I read it, it was about 303 pages... you can download or copy. …
Can you post a link to the “rules” you’re talking about.
CaCO3Girl posted:Iowamom23 posted:So how prevelent is all this? reading all this it seems like it must happen dozens of times a season, but when you realize we are all debating one situation and one pretty poor coach, it's hard to see a trend there?
There is a poster on here called Bballman, his son just finished up his degree and was able to stay on the baseball team as a pitcher the whole time. However, he has posted often that it is not usual that a player spends all 4 years on the ONE team. It happens, but it's not what happens to most.
draft, quits, transfers, flunks out, injury, coaching change, coach says he can't use you.....etc.
50% of all D1 recruits finish their college baseball playing days at a second or third school. Recruiters make bad choices. Players make bad choices. Some players just get caught up in the numbers. Injuries happen. Bad grades happen. Homesickness happens.
just correcting the mis-information...from Gman & you. There is no reasonable comparison between some D-1 programs & milb.
2006, son was drafted out of HS, turned down to attend Tulane, 4 yrs on Travel Roster, drafted 2010, signed with Yankees for a pack of bubble gum, MLB debut May 2013, released end of 2014, picked up by Marlins & Spring Training 2015, injured shoulder, underwent stem cell injections, out all of 2015, released, granted free agency, signed with Giants for 2016 @ AA Richmond, granted free agency again, 2017 picked up by Rangers, Spring Training & is currently the Closer with AAA Round Rock Express.
So, I've got "a little lernin"...
Stats4Gnats posted:baseballmom posted:
…Maybe, CaCo, you ought to read MLB rules. Last I read it, it was about 303 pages... you can download or copy. …
Can you post a link to the “rules” you’re talking about.
This will get you started...
http://www.milb.com/milb/info/faq.jsp?mc=business
!st yr Player Draft
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/draftday/rules.jsp
Arbitration Explained
http://fansided.com/2014/01/20/arbitration-mean/
Transaction Rules explained
http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/s...les-explained-080310
MLB Collective Bargaining Agreement, Nov 2016
http://www.mlbplayers.com/View...amp;ATCLID=211078089
Then there are Grievance Rules, but I can't find an online source...Suffice to say it is also very complicated & requires agent help to decipher/negotiate.
baseballmom posted:just correcting the mis-information...from Gman & you. There is no reasonable comparison between some D-1 programs & milb.
2006, son was drafted out of HS, turned down to attend Tulane, 4 yrs on Travel Roster, drafted 2010, signed with Yankees for a pack of bubble gum, MLB debut May 2013, released end of 2014, picked up by Marlins & Spring Training 2015, injured shoulder, underwent stem cell injections, out all of 2015, released, granted free agency, signed with Giants for 2016 @ AA Richmond, granted free agency again, 2017 picked up by Rangers, Spring Training & is currently the Closer with AAA Round Rock Express.
So, I've got "a little lernin"...
I'm not doubting your knowledge, not at all. This will be my last post on this thread, how about we go to yes and no.
Is it common that when a player transfers from D1 o D1 they must sit a year?
Is it common that when an MiLB player is released they can be picked up by another team and have no restriction on waiting a year to play?
Not "doesn't it always happen this way"...is it common?
baseballmom posted:This will get you there...
Thanx. I always wondered what the "real" truth was but never knew where to look. All I've ever gotten was what someone believed was the truth rather than what was actually true. 
Iowamom23 posted:So how prevelent is all this? reading all this it seems like it must happen dozens of times a season, but when you realize we are all debating one situation and one pretty poor coach, it's hard to see a trend there?
Don't be fooled by the "Life is hard" crowd. Being a jackass is not part of being a successful coach. You don't last long trying to be thoughtless and hard on people. Sure, they have to be honest with people and tell them that their plans don't include them. However, humans naturally don't tolerate crass, selfish and abusive behavior.
Coaches who are good don't have to act like clowns.
Teaching Elder posted:Iowamom23 posted:So how prevelent is all this? reading all this it seems like it must happen dozens of times a season, but when you realize we are all debating one situation and one pretty poor coach, it's hard to see a trend there?
Don't be fooled by the "Life is hard" crowd. Being a jackass is not part of being a successful coach. You don't last long trying to be thoughtless and hard on people. Sure, they have to be honest with people and tell them that their plans don't include them. However, humans naturally don't tolerate crass, selfish and abusive behavior.
Coaches who are good don't have to act like clowns.
Agree!!!!
"Is it common that when a player transfers from D1 o D1 they must sit a year?"
Absent unusual circumstances, D1 to D1 sits a year.
"Is it common that when an MiLB player is released they can be picked up by another team and have no restriction on waiting a year to play?"
Most players released would love to be picked up by another affiliated team. Alas, not so often does that come to pass. (Though many players released in season for non-injury reasons can find a place in unaffiliated ball.) Why would MLB have any sit down restriction? The purpose of the rule in D1 was to reduce "playing time" transfers (kids would bounce from school to school, finishing eligibility with virtually no college credits) so the player would have a whack at graduating in his early 20's.
One other problem with any college transfer - athlete or non-athlete are credit transfers. Often a D1 school offers far more courses than a D3, so credits will be lost on a transfer. When those credits don't transfer, parents pay more money. Additionally, a drop down might find his major is not offered at the d3 - again necessitating more parental money for a degree.
CaCo posted:
"I'm not doubting your knowledge, not at all. This will be my last post on this thread, how about we go to yes and no.
Is it common that when a player transfers from D1 o D1 they must sit a year?
Is it common that when an MiLB player is released they can be picked up by another team and have no restriction on waiting a year to play?
Not "doesn't it always happen this way"...is it common?
Those questions, as phrased, do not warrant your options of a yes or no answer. Read the Rules for NCAA & MLB.
Teaching Elder, SOOO very true!
Goose, another excellent point to consider!
TPM posted:CaCO3Girl posted:Iowamom23 posted:So how prevelent is all this? reading all this it seems like it must happen dozens of times a season, but when you realize we are all debating one situation and one pretty poor coach, it's hard to see a trend there?
There is a poster on here called Bballman, his son just finished up his degree and was able to stay on the baseball team as a pitcher the whole time. However, he has posted often that it is not usual that a player spends all 4 years on the ONE team. It happens, but it's not what happens to most.
draft, quits, transfers, flunks out, injury, coaching change, coach says he can't use you.....etc.
His son attended D2, and in some D2 programs there is a coming and going each year.
In many D2 programs, most do not get baseball money (9 scholarships) and they can carry more than 35. Most end up getting money from other sources, nothing to do with athletic scholarships, so if baseball doesn't work out, they still have money to attend school.
If you study rosters, there are very few seniors. This happens for a variety of reasons, but most realize baseball isn't in their future, their interest changes, or if they don't play a significant role, they lost their athletic money.
Happens all of the time. Every year at this time.
This bolded bit is not true at all here on the left coast. The CCAA, a very strong conference, is dominated by upperclassmen. The PacWest and the RMAC both have plenty of seniors.
Goosegg posted:One other problem with any college transfer - athlete or non-athlete are credit transfers. Often a D1 school offers far more courses than a D3, so credits will be lost on a transfer. When those credits don't transfer, parents pay more money. Additionally, a drop down might find his major is not offered at the d3 - again necessitating more parental money for a degree.
This can happen D1 to D1. What if a kid starts at a Cal State studying business, drops down to JC, then is recruited by a UC, most of which do not have an undergrad business major? Not a great situation.