Good Player Weak Program

Depends on the school. Does it have his major. How hard is it to get into the school? How is the rest of the fit? Is the player draft-able? Does the player want to be part of building a program. 

No one  size fits all. Too many variables. 

Are you talking about high school or travel? I would never sacrifice academics to play in a better high school program. 

My son had offers from quality academic privates with very good baseball (and other sports) teams. The gifted program at his high school was better. Even at half price the privates were more than 10k per year.

My son and I (as input) showed faith in a new coach taking over a perennial loser. They finished second, first and first during his three years on varsity. He was proud to be part of the beginning of a new trend at his high school.

Most college recruiting is done in the summer at travel tournaments and showcases. Being on the right travel team creates visibility and a coach who can promote his players to college coaches.

Thanks for your thoughts, RJM. I am new here and was browsing other topics and the one that got my attention was about Penn State University baseball. Such a good school and such a weak program. That got me thinking about how a program that has been weak so long under the current leadership and how they could improve. You may have hit the nail of the head as your related your son's experience in high school with a new coach.

Would any good player chose to go to a weak college baseball program that had the same coach now as in the weak years? It seems that some players are still being recruited and accept.   What is the thinking there. Is the thought that the education you get at Penn State is so much better that a losing baseball record just doesn't matter? Is the thought that a good player will be found to go to the next level even at a weak baseball school?

How could the a coach who has continued to lose hope to turn things around? Does anyone have a feeling about how a weak program goes about convincing kids to come without a change in coaching? Other than winning on the field what can a losing coach say that will get better players than in the past to come play for him?

There are a ton of kids who would line up to play for a Big Ten school and get the college experience at Penn State, despite the losing record.  In order to turn around the program, they need to recruit the right players.

If a college program has a weak baseball program and strong academics they sell the existing academics and the baseball vision. It’s up to the recruit to determine if the vision is legitimate.

I know two kids who played at Penn State. The education and the future alumni experience was more important to them than the baseball. They did buy into the vision though. But at the time of recruitment the program was middle of the road. 

The key to success is keeping the in state quality players from leaving the state. However, the better the player the more likely he is to head for warmer weather.

UConn has the same problem. A few years ago they were ranked. They convinced George Springer (Astros), Matt Barnes (Red Sox) and some other top CT players to stay in state. Then they had a down cycle. They must have convinced some studs to stay in state again. UConn is ranked this year.

Boston College has an up year once in a while when they can convince pitching to stay regional. Otherwise, like this year they struggle. Three years ago they took Miami to the wall with pitchers who were top ten round draft picks.

One way to upgrade a program is bring in a hot and rising mid major head coach or top major program assistant and give him the tools to succeed.

It’s not uncommon to find the schools that spin their wheels (Villanova) don’t allocate the full compliment of 11.7 scholarships.

Yes, I understand that recruiting the "right" players is what must happen at any school that wants to win. My question was how can they do that without changing coaches....what players that are the "right recruits" would want to go to a losing program with a losing coach? I am looking for people to answer that are in that position of having a choice of big time winning schools and Penn State to play for and some words about why they might chose the losing program that still has the same head coach.

Is anybody out there in that position that can share their thoughts on this topic

BTW, I use Penn State only as an example since so many people had responded on the last thread (65) but I am sure there are other big schools with losing programs and coaches right now. The prior thread seemed to have generated some interest on this topic but went off on other tangents other than how individual players make the decision to go to a weaker program when they have a choice to go to a stronger program. IE. how does a weak program convince better players than they have gotten in the past to come in spite of constant losing?

Rochesterbaseball,

There is no one size fits all in college or college baseball.   Different people have different goals, priorities and circumstances in their lives.   I've got to know about 50+ folks pretty darn well over the years on HSBBWeb.  The diversity of wanting to play college baseball is incredible as well as the path to get there.  There are people that want to be drafted to play professionally, people that want to get a great education and play college baseball and then those that just love the game and will play anywhere.   There are all walks of life.    

My son grew up in the south and ended up playing college baseball in the north....not far from you in Rochester, NY.  The program was not a perennial contender in his conference.  That changed in 2012 when his team won the conference and went to Chapel Hill, NC to play in the NCAA D1 regionals.  It was the highlight of his college career.   Yes, every blind squirrel finds a nut...but this team was really good for a couple years.  A couple guys got drafted and few guys are working on Wall Street.   I wouldn't turn my nose up on an opportunity to play at Penn State or any school like it if the overall lifetime opportunity makes it worthwhile. 

As Always, JMO.

Rochesterbaseball posted:

Thanks for your thoughts, RJM. I am new here and was browsing other topics and the one that got my attention was about Penn State University baseball. Such a good school and such a weak program. That got me thinking about how a program that has been weak so long under the current leadership and how they could improve. You may have hit the nail of the head as your related your son's experience in high school with a new coach.

Would any good player chose to go to a weak college baseball program that had the same coach now as in the weak years? It seems that some players are still being recruited and accept.   What is the thinking there. Is the thought that the education you get at Penn State is so much better that a losing baseball record just doesn't matter? Is the thought that a good player will be found to go to the next level even at a weak baseball school?

How could the a coach who has continued to lose hope to turn things around? Does anyone have a feeling about how a weak program goes about convincing kids to come without a change in coaching? Other than winning on the field what can a losing coach say that will get better players than in the past to come play for him?

There are plenty of things a coach can and does say... or use to recruit when he is losing.  New facility coming, see you in a prominent role, see you as an integral piece of getting program back on winning track, academic clout, right major, right climate, bringing in a (x) coach that will help you develop, appealing game schedule, get to play against the big boys, better chance to play right away, your major, tutoring help, highly touted recruiting class the next few years, friends of yours in the program, close to home/far away from home, outside activities (even though you will never have time to do them), pretty girls, great food...  the list goes on.  Also, I would say most college programs have up and down cycles.  This is another way to address a current down cycle -"the new guys in the program have us headed back where we belong", blah, blah...

There are generally far more good baseball players than college roster spots, particularly those with scholy $ attached.  The schools usually have the leverage unless the player is an absolute stud.  

Now, how good are some of these coaches at identifying and then properly courting the best players they can realistically  get to their programs?  How good are they at getting the most out of them when they arrive?  Those are other questions for another thread.

The things that can change with an existing coach are better facilities, more scholarships (if not a full allotment) and schedule. Maybe you can’t play for North Carolina. But what if you get to play a couple of non conference games against them? 

If a player becomes a pro prospect while in college it doesn’t matter if the program isn’t winning. He will be found. Pro scouts look at metrics not stats. Heath Hembree (Red Sox) was drafted in the 5th round after a junior year with a 6.52 ERA. Why? A mid to upper 90’s fastball. You can’t teach that velocity.

RJM is right on. If you are good enough for a pro career, they will find you. If you go to a school that has a monster BB program, you will have plenty of competition, and will be struggling for playing time. Hard to improve, and be seen, when your butt is on the bench. If it also is a mediocre school academically...well...makes you wonder what the end game is, doesn't it?

  Son's pitching coach started out in an extremely unremarkable D3 in the rural midwest. Finally started to pitch well enough to go to a BIG 10 school. Then pitched Independent League. Contract was purchased, literally, for some baseballs and bats. Somewhere in there a switch flicked on in his body, and he went from throwing 85 to 95. He ended up being a closer for a MLB team.

   It's one thing to play for a badly run program where the practices and coaching are subpar, another to play for a team that is losing because they don't have the horses. If the latter is filled with good people, it's a good school, and they need you, then I'd definitely consider playing for them. Sitting on a bench on a stacked team sucks.

There's a lot going on here so I'll try to cover as much as I can. Would any good player choose to go to a historically weak program with the same coach for years?

Yes, happens all the time. Some kids want to play in a certain conference, or go to a certain school, or stay in a certain area. For some it is their best offer. For some, playing at a weaker program in a power conference might be more appealing than going to a mid major that wins. Flights vs bus rides, big campus vs small campus, public vs private, guaranteed 4 yr scholarship vs year to year. These are all factors that go into deciding on a college. There are plenty of mid majors better than PSU, but very very few of those mid majors can offer what PSU can. Baseball is a lot, but not everything when deciding on a school. Also, the players on these bad teams were/are good players. Sure some don't pan out the way they might have been expected to but they were still very good high school players with options. Especially at the D1 level. 

How do you recruit the right player without changing coaches? 

Something has to change, whether it is recruiting, facilities, or support from the university. Maybe an East Coast school needs to recruit more from the Midwest/West. In CA, there is more D1 talent than there are schools. Maybe a school in a cold weather state needs to build a new stadium or an indoor facility. There are times when a program was neglected for years and the administration decides in order to compete they need to step up their game (Mich St, Alabama). Something minor like a single dorm, bigger quad style dorms for the team, tutors, or a new dining hall where the athletes live can make a difference when it comes decision time for a student athlete. Possibly change pitching coaches if the pitching is the issue, etc. Coaches can catch a lot of slack for things that are out of their control. Moral of the story- unless something changes, nothing will. 

The concerns about Penn State also apply to Maryland and Rutgers which are entering their fifth year in the Big Ten. The player who takes the offer is more likely to want the school for the academics and usually comes from close by. 

Stuart Nachbar posted:

The concerns about Penn State also apply to Maryland and Rutgers which are entering their fifth year in the Big Ten. The player who takes the offer is more likely to want the school for the academics and usually comes from close by. 

I actually think both those schools are trending upwards. Obviously cold weather states are going to have their problems, but for the short time being in the Big 10 I think both have improved. Rutgers just built a new indoor training facility specifically for baseball and has had about 10 players drafted in the past 4/5 years. More commits are getting drafted out of HS which tells me they're recruiting better and in 2-3 years, once the previous staff's footprint is gone, I can see them being pretty competitive. 

Maryland made the tournament in both 14/15 and has been in and out of the rankings for the past few seasons with plenty of recruits and players getting drafted. They've had multiple 40 wins seasons as well. They're doing just fine. I don't think either school is going to be a perennial power on the national stage or even the Big 10, but they're far from pushovers. I'm a Big 10 fan so I'm biased, but with the push towards improving indoor facilities and space for winter training I see the cold weather teams doing better and the conference as a whole moving up. 

I think the problem with a school like Penn State is that they've been in the Big 10 forever, have a beautiful state of the art stadium, good school and there is no improvement. I know the Big 10 isn't SEC/ACC level but it is still a tough conference without a doubt. Mich, Indiana, Illinois, Minnesota, even Purdue are all tough. You put any of those three schools in a lower conference and they finish in the top 3 without a doubt. Same applies to a school like Alabama. You put them in the Big East and they're finishing at the top annually. 

Interestingly, Maryland, Penn State and Rutgers are more likely to recruit against each other than they are against the Midwestern schools in the Big Ten. Geography and recruiting budgets means territorial overlap, much like football recruiting where I live (Central New Jersey/Bucks County, PA). Penn State has always done well at football recruiting here. History is very much on their side. Rutgers was making good inroads when Greg Schiano was the coach. He considered a 250-mile radius from campus to be the 'State of Rutgers' and got a lot of kids from Maryland and Southeastern PA. The current baseball coach is a "Jersey Guy," who played there when the school was in the Atlantic 10 for baseball.  

Rutgers has a good fanbase in the sense that alumni will root for the teams if the athletic success is "good," but academic success is "excellent." This is the paragraph for the baseball team, from their Web site:

Academics are a priority in the program, as Rutgers has earned public acknowledgment for Academic Progress Rate (APR) scores the past three years. That puts the Scarlet Knights in the top 10 percent of college baseball in academic achievement regarding eligibility, graduation and retention each term. A total of 43 student-athletes garnered Academic All-Big Ten status the last four years, with nine deemed Big Ten Distinguished Scholars for a GPA of at least 3.7. All seven seniors in the 2018 class were named academic all-conference during their careers.