Good time to be a College Pitcher

Absolutely CD, Last night's game- North Florida vs Troy- had 17 pitchers including 4 weekend starters and the third baseman came in for UNF and got the win and scored the wining run in extra innings. This same player, Andrew Carmeris, was cut from the team last year but was brought back as a bullpen catcher after another catcher failed to make his grades. He's now starting 3b and hitting .328 and may have just become a closer.!?!

Pitchers are priceless this year!

It's probably what evened the playing field most between southern and northern teams, although true parity is a pipe dream.

Forcing the change to use more pitchers is better for the game. I'm pretty sure it was Al Gore's idea.

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Forcing the change to use more pitchers is better for the game. I'm pretty sure it was Al Gore's idea.

Oh, please CPLZ. Get with the times. It was Obama's proposal....the inventory of palm computing.

I know Stanford used more pitchers last year than previous years.

I'm still against the schedule change though. Its too intrusive to school (which should be the #1 concern)...AND...it cuts down on practice time and makes it much harder to work your way up off the bench for many of the players who need to do it through practice and intra squads.

Trust me---the kids on most teams where practicing before the "official" start date


As for a compressed schedule most cold weather schools havbe been doing it for years


The good coaches make it work--that is why they win every year

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
What do you think?

I think it's not good. If you have depth, it's good, if you don't someone is going to be overused. If you have 12 or more teams you are already into your important conference games.

I saw a pitcher pitch Friday and on two days rest come in on Sunday when needed. It's too early in the year for that stuff. And pitch counts at 100+ this time of year is not needed. What happened to progression?

For many schools who played 5 games a week in the past this is not new stuff. I worry about the programs that don't know how to manage their pitching staff well. Complete games as a freshman pitcher (saw this alot last year) is not good.

JMO.

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As for a compressed schedule most cold weather schools havbe been doing it for years

Without a whole lot of success - huh?

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Trust me---the kids on most teams where practicing before the "official" start date

Irrelevant to my comment.

Let me lay it out to you. Two seasons ago...following getting smacked in the face in Cape Cod and enduring the death of his grandmother during January practice...my son, despite a good Fall suffered a setback. Lost some velocity, couldn't throw strikes.

As the season began, while he was projected as a starter...he fell to the back half of the bullpen. He had only one way out...to perform during intra-squads/practices.

After a couple of months (into late March) of not much time in games...he worked his way (through the scrimmages) back onto the field...then eventually back into the starting rotation.

This will be harder now. One day of practice a week...how do you prove you've recovered or improved?

I don't give a hoot about NE schools and what they've done for years. Let them build hockey rinks for the SE and Western schools if they really give a dam-n about "leveling the playing field."

justbaseball

LET ME LAY IT OUT FOR YOU without the sympathy factor---a good coach will handle the situation and make it work--the coaches who don't know how to do it will cry "foul"

I really could care less what you give a hoot about--facts are facts pal and that is the way it is---

Yep, facts are facts. The NE will never equal the SE and West in college baseball caliber. No matter how hard they try and tweak the rules or hire better coaches (if they can). Just like we'll never equal their caliber of hockey.

It is what it is!

Sympathy? Not a chance big fella...just layin' out a real life scenario for you...tryin' to make it as simple as possible for ya...as to yet another reason why the new schedule $ucks!

justbaseball

Who the heck is arguing that point?

Stay on point please!!!!

Big Fella !!! LOL

I know about real life scenarios---that is the same fall I lost both my parents

Enjoy your life in the California sun

As per the schedule it is it what it is---don't cry here---talk to the NCAA--the coaches couldnt get it taken care of --perhaps you can !!!!


Have a good nite!

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Enjoy your life in the California sun

Jealous?

No cryin' here...big little(?) fella!

Just talkin' about another facet of why the new schedule isn't the greatest idea. Too tough for you to follow? As directly on point as the original point of the thread!

Thats just plain talk...what you like - huh?

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I know about real life scenarios---that is the same fall I lost both my parents

I am very, VERY sorry about that. I don't know how to convey my sincerity in that feeling. But I know how it feels.

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I am very, VERY sorry about that. I don't know how to convey my sincerity in that feeling. But I know how it feels.

I really like the way, after you and Thrit were having a good debate about schedule change, but you are able to end your post with sincere sense of his loss. That to me is the HSBBW at its best, get in the ring hash things out, and in the end be a real human being that understnads someone elses feelings,while not sharing their viewpoint. Classy way to end that post .

No question about it, in my mind. That was one of the first predictions I had with the changes - pitchers are even more of a premium commodity. I think it helped catchers a little too.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
I don't give a hoot about NE schools and what they've done for years. "

Just as long as you got yours, huh?

The hockey analogy is just grasping at weak straws. If there was genuine interest in hockey, as there is in baseball, you'd have hockey rinks. Hockey is a regional sport, and just because the dominant teams tend to be regionally located in baseball, doesn't mean efforts shouldn't be made to do our best to give every school the same opportunity.

People who lose advantages that they've become accustomed to always whine when their advantage is lessened.

Did you ever think that the scenario you laid out about how difficult it is for your son to come back, is the same scenario that northern teams have lived with for years? Oh wait, I forgot,

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
I don't give a hoot about NE schools and what they've done for years. "

Nice. How enlightened.

Any other self serving, provincial, separatist and selfish arguments you'd like to share with the class?

quote:

People who lose advantages that they've become accustomed to always whine when their advantage is lessened.

I see no advantage lost whatsoever. None. I just see more kids subjected to a ridiculous schedule.

Southern/Western schools will still get the best baseball players, on average...even the ones who grow up in the North.

Its just not helpful to the "student"-athlete...which is what the NCAA should put first.

As for my son, I'm sorry I brought it up since it seems to be a problem for northerners. I did it only as an example of why it may not be a helpful rule to all in terms of playing time (see thread title). Just offering a counterexample. Follow?

Maybe you wanna pay higher taxes like we do...just to level the playing field? Share the wealth! Share the pain!

So...

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Did you ever think that the scenario you laid out about how difficult it is for your son to come back, is the same scenario that northern teams have lived with for years?

Uh, yeah...wasnt that a little part of my point? Whats yours? That its good that the next kid doesn't get that chance no matter where he plays ball?

Whining? LOL! Now thats really funny. Re-read your own words. Who's whining?

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:

Maybe you wanna pay higher taxes like we do...just to level the playing field? Share the wealth! Share the pain!

Why, so I can help subsidize the whinery industry?

(sorry, it was just too easy )

The USD really exposes pitching depth, or lack thereof, even with the bigshot programs. They are losing games due to it, both weekday and weekend games.

The other factor that would help level the playing field even more gets thwarted by when the season is played, or weather issues. The southern teams don't really know what a 4 week road trip is to start the season.

I like debating the North-South issue and player talent. Seems to me that those making assumptions are realizing that them guys in the bullpen at RPI#1 University aren't much better than the guys from Snowball University.

On topic, I agree that young pitchers are getting earlier opportunities, especially down south.

Rhode Island beating Miami and Illinois winning 2 against LSU was pretty neat. All the starting hitters played.

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The USD really exposes pitching depth, or lack thereof, even with the bigshot programs. They are losing games due to it, both weekday and weekend games.

Good point. Maybe teams are not looking forward to playing Rice or LSU on Friday or Saturday but I think they are more than willing to take their chances with them on Sunday or Tuesday or Weds for that matter.

There has been some very funny humor in this thread from both the from right and the left coast

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Why, so I can help subsidize the whinery industry?

Now THATS funny!

But methinks with our state budget situation...and the new 'tilt' of the national political world...you may in fact be doing just that...soon.

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I for one, LOVE the new college schedule rules...about time....the new rules really level the playing field and have really done a great deal for college baseball...(stop whining about sore arm’s and academics)...I agree the southern schools are a bunch of “whining sissies”...grow up!

..here is my problem: a good start, by why stop there?...I love this equality concept and I believe strongly that we can really make it work...If we are REALLY serious about leveling the baseball playing field, getting back the concept of real student athletes, minimizing bias, maximizing academics, ridding ourselves of that evil MLB influence...then lets stop playing games and seriously get to work...and take more control...

Weather?...Why not do this one right?...Weather is still iffy in March...I suggest getting rid of preseason...conference schedules only...prior to that any school below 40 degrees latitude must practice indoors (the northern schools do it – only fair)...then I suggest we play the games at neutral sites (fans are far too big an influence – inequality). I suggest we set weather guidelines...temperature must be 60-75 degrees, humidity within 60 and 80%, any wind over 15 MPH and the games are blacklisted as “Wind-aided” (inequality)...all games must be played from 1,000 to 1,500 feet in altitude.

Talent/recruiting?...Talent is by its very nature incredibly biased and unfair. In order to equalize the talent at each school, we do away with the drafting of college players by MLB. No carrot and the talent level will drop and equal out. You want to play pro ball?...simply, quit whining and move to the Dominican. You have no place in the new order. Sayonara, Bye, Bye. Good Riddance. Additionally, No lefties. No players over 6’1”. Nobody over 90MPH. A Speed limit in the 60. All those are unfair biases we can control. Now to spread the talent. All players at 4.0 and a year ahead with AP’s qualify for a draft based upon last years 300 team finishes...Sorry Woodman, Beavers pick dead last.

Academics?...Truly equal educational opportunities (all academics done on-line through the new NCAA education department- no bias!)....Also my son is a 4.0, so by my measure they should all be there...new NCAA slogan “get a B, Be on the bench” (catchy, easy to remember slogan, BB). You score big in class you earn the right to play...otherwise stop whining and get at those books...what a bunch of lazy academic babies! My son can do it anyone can.

Funding/tuition?...no scholarships (by their very nature sports scholarships are unfair, and ruin the concept of amateur athletics)... equal funding for each program...equal coaches salaries....minimum facilities. Tear down those big gaudy ballparks (why should a school get an advantage just because it has better facilities, or throws more money out? That’s simply not fair.) Legislated equal tuition rates for all DI athletes at school (why should state schools have the advantage?)

Quality of life?...Huge bias here, and one of the more difficult problems to solve in our quest for true and pure equality...but I have a few ideas....We can get a great deal on leftover, cold war era, draconian concrete East German athletic bunkers (picture please woodman)...or if your budget is bigger we use PODS. We segregate our players from the general population. No interaction with the student body allowed as it may tinge the equality of experience. Lord knows the experience at Eastern South Dakota State is much different than that at UCLA!

See equality is not really that difficult. Sure it will take adjustment but you will adapt, trust me. It’s good for everyone!

On the other hand....we could just realize that life and athletics are inherently unfair, that everyone has advantages and disadvantages. That is what makes the whole thing so interesting.(If this stuff were truly for the benefit of the atheltes and fairness they would work them same direction with football...Yea Right.) That overcoming obstacles IS the lesson, (see Oregon State x 2)not creating an artificial video game world where all the parameters are exactly the same....and creating more issues in the process.

Nah, that makes far too much sense....

I can get those bunkers cheap...


44
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Very clever O44. But you forgot one very important thing (to baseball players that is)...the coeds at UCLA! What are ya gonna do 'bout them?!?!

Gotta love that, Ostrich with his head buried in the sand perspective.

Care for some cheese with that?

JB...you missed this...

quote:

Originally posted by observer44:
.
....We can get a great deal on leftover, cold war era, draconian concrete East German athletic bunkers (picture please woodman)...or if your budget is bigger we use PODS. We segregate our players from the general population. No interaction with the student body allowed as it may tinge the equality of experience. Lord knows the experience at Eastern South Dakota State is much different than that at UCLA! .

In other words absolutely no co-ed's in the student athlete bunkers...

44
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quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:
Gotta love that, Ostrich with his head buried in the sand perspective.

Glad you finally came to your senses! A little self-assessment never hurts.

.
The simple question/observation is this...was this difference so patently aggregious that it took this kind of draconian solution? One that has serious academic implications...

...Or as so often happens was it a minor irritation that was overfixed by board dwelling bureaucrats? Agreed, change is constant and it is part of life, but it has been my experience that changes admistered by boards, and comittees, who are not "on the ground" tend to end up like this....

....It's a "Dilbert" thing...the "fixing the china with a hammer" logic...

What happens if those schools who benefitting from their politics and whining....continue to recruit badly and lose... what's next? How far does this go? If we are indeed gong to look at this through the eyes of the absolute, where the whiners who GOT their legislations through continue to get their way rather than degrees, then ANY solution no matter how ridiculous, no matter how far fetched is sanguine as long as absolute fairness is the absolute "throw the baby out with the bath water" goal.

While some in challenging climates spend their time whining and complaining trying to legislate success...actually trying to use legislation beat geography and the weather...

...others go to work overcoming it (Oregon State).

This is fun!

44
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quote:

originally posted by observer44:
While some in challenging climates spend their time whining and complaining trying to legislate success...actually trying to use legislation beat geography and the weather...

...others go to work overcoming it (Oregon State).

The average July temperature in Corvallis is 80 degrees. The average January temperature is 33 degrees. Corvallis has an average annual rainfall of 43 inches. Average snowfall in Corvallis is 6 inches. (When was the last time Corvallis had 6 inches of snow, about 6 years ago)

During February, the month practice begins, the avg high for Corvallis is 51. They practice outside nearly every day. To categorize OSU as a "northern" school, with a northern climate is a fallacy. It is a coastal school with temperate weather and an expansive home recruiting zone. You probably couldn't have picked a worse example to support your argument.

The rules put in place had nothing to do with recruiting. No one ever said top players would suddenly flock northward and the warm climates would lose the recruiting battle.

It seems every position you've taken in this debate is either obtuse, preposterous or absurd. According to your logic, no rules should ever be made by committee, anyone pursuing change should be labeled a whiner, and change that does happen should be categorized as unusually cruel.

Legislating fairness, everyone start here, everyone end here, is now the great evil? There are alternatives to scheduling, but the advantaged just refuse to adjust, adapt, overcome it. Your institutions give lip service to academics for student athletes. Put your money where your mouth is, schedule weekend 4 game series with doubleheaders so kids get more class time. What? It'll hurt your RPI? There's that darn academic thing again, gettin in the way of our priority, athletics.

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There has been some very funny humor in this thread from both the from right and the left coast

....and the coast of Lake Michigan.

CPLZ, isn't funny how they forget about the glue that holds those coasts together.

Dude! (Thats a California term just in case its unfamiliar to you).

Life is not fair. No amount of legislating will "level" this field. It only further endangers more student-athletes.

You get skiing, sleigh rides, ice skating outside, hockey on the local pond, white Christmas' and lower taxes.

We get surfing (dude!), sunshine, lots of rain in the early months of the year, fine wine and better baseball.

Wanna really do something to make a dent in baseball inequality (WOW! what a thought...'baseball bill of rights!' Ugh! ) ? Build the JC infrastructure that California, Florida and Texas have...amongst other benefits (mostly academic)...a place to develop "late bloomers."

It is what it is. I don't think about ways to make the miserable parts of my world (e.g. too much sunshine! ) miserable for you too.

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Your institutions give lip service to academics for student athletes.

Having grown up in the Midwest (where the Big-10...or is that 11?..can't count? was a big driver on this legislation), this statement is hilarious...absolutely hilarious!

Louisville is a school that overcomes weather circumstances.

Maybe we should have the warm weather MLB teams start 1 month prior to the Northern teams. How do you think this would go over????

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
Having grown up in the Midwest (where the Big-10...or is that 11?..can't count? was a big driver on this legislation), this statement is hilarious...absolutely hilarious!

That's the second time you've tried to invoke the," I'm rubber you're glue", defense. Not working.

It's a demonstrated fact at warm weather baseball schools, that when they have to make a choice between doing what's best for the student/athlete academically, and boosting their RPI, they choose the RPI. Look at the rainouts on the east coast that happened two weeks ago. Most of the southern schools scrambled to make up those games, or even schedule new contests, and cram them into their schedule to keep their number of games up to enhance their RPI. What is the stance of all you academically sensitive people on this issue? I've heard nary a peep.

Originally this debate was to focus on whether change was good for pitchers. Implicit in the question was whether young pitchers would get more chances with the new schedule.

My son is at a Northeast DIII so new schedule is not a factor. BUT I think one way to answer question is to look at rosters and box scores. Last year the team dressed 27 players and carried 10 pitchers. This year they have 27 with 11 pitchers. This year however they also have an additional two pitchers (both who have been scheduled to pitch this weekend) who also are position players.
I have been told that at the end of the season last year his team was running out of pitchers. Maybe its the two way player who gains the most in a compressed schedule.

quote:

OB44 quote:
What happens if those schools who benefitting from their politics and whining....continue to recruit badly and lose... what's next?

I don't know if it's fair to say, and I think you mean Northern schools, recruit badly. I find a correlation between the college regular season and the college summer season. It's easier for college programs to recruit when you have spring weather that is conducive to baseball and in the same regard the Northern Summer Leagues (Cod, Northwoods, Alaskan) as I doubt you will find as much depth down South with those Summer leagues and a lot of that is because those leagues want to be in a more comfortable summer climate.

It sounds as though there is a perceived class system with programs that are playing under the same umbrella. I doubt you will find a Northern advocate that thinks this change affects where the depth of talent will go. I may be wrong but isn't the change just a standardization of a calendar that's more fair to all?

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
As for my son, I'm sorry I brought it up since it seems to be a problem for northerners. I did it only as an example of why it may not be a helpful rule to all in terms of playing time (see thread title). Just offering a counterexample. Follow?

JBB - In your son's case, if this had happened, this year (for instance) don't you think he would've gotten his chance to make a come back by coming in during a mid week game or something? You laid out a real nice scenario of how he made his come back under those circumstances but with the need for extra pitchers (like the 17 used in the UNF game), I'm wondering if ED would've proved his worth during a 2 inning stint in a weekday game instead of the intrasquad practice game?

I'm not trying to stir the pot here just wondering if that might be a reality now.

Beezer, thats a very good question that I obviously don't have the answer too.

My only answer is that apparently his pitching problems were substantial enough at that point that he sank well below the "play" line. I don't think he was close to getting in games for a month and a half. I think, in retrospect, that the coaches did him a big favor...letting him work out whatever it was away from crowds and pressures of the game. It took some good outings in intra-squads...the bullpen wouldn't have done it.

So my thought is it would've made things worse for him. However, I'm gonna anticipate a few responses that this was a very unusual example that won't repeat itself often. And that (hopefully) would be true.

So lets take a jump to a position player. I still see lineups mostly filled with the regulars on weekday games. How does the extra infielder...or 4th/5th outfielder work their way into the lineup? How do they get a rhythm? By 1 or 2 ABs a week? Doubt it.

I think this new schedule solidifies the lineup...locks it in just a little more. The 10th-12th pitcher may get more time...but the 13th-14th don't...and the 11th-20th position players don't either. Thats just my observation, no data, nothing more.

quote:

It sounds as though there is a perceived class system with programs that are playing under the same umbrella. I doubt you will find a Northern advocate that thinks this change affects where the depth of talent will go. I may be wrong but isn't the change just a standardization of a calendar that's more fair to all?

I think you are correct. The condensed calender tilts the scale 2* toward the northern schools. Florida schools will still host northern schools that have not been outside yet. Baseball will continue to be dominated by warm weather states, just as hockey and downhill skiing will continue to be dominated by cold weather states. Other than scrambling pitching staffs two or three weeks a season, and putting unneeded academic pressure on all, the net competitive result is immeasurable.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dad04:
Baseball will continue to be dominated by warm weather states[QUOTE]

FSU lost twice to BC.
LSU lost twice to Illinois.
UM lost to Rutgers and Rhode Island

quote:

Originally posted by OLDSLUGGER8:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dad04:
Baseball will continue to be dominated by warm weather states[QUOTE]

FSU lost twice to BC.
LSU lost twice to Illinois.
UM lost to Rutgers and Rhode Island

They will still dominate but maybe not to the same degree. It's kind of like throwing a lawn chair off the Queen Mary.

CPLZ - I wanna address your comments too. Absent data (I'll be interested in baseball graduation rates when these rules are reflected in that data), all we can go on is personal perceptions based on what we experience and what we see with our own eyes.

I will grant you that our son attended a top-notch academic institution. But never, NEVER did I see any relaxing of academic requirements nor incentive or framework to do anything other than help the student athlete at his school. In fact, its far too boring for most here to discuss in detail...but all of their teams' game schedules conform to university rules (above and beyond the NCAA's) about when they can and cannot play based on maintaining academic excellence. This school also pulled a star athlete (future 1st round draft pick in another sport) off a team for a quarter not because the NCAA said they should...but because the university thought he needed it to regain their standards for the classroom. There is no question it hurt that team temporarily at least.

I see too much "whining" today about what others have that we cannot. In some weird way, our current financial crisis was partially created by people trying to have what others have...and seeing attaining that as "happiness." Lots of kids play hockey here...but the reality is they probably don't have much of a chance competing with Northerners or Canadians for college scholarships except for a select few. I don't hear them whining about it...or trying to make you conform to their playing conditions/schedule/weather so they get a "fair" shot. Instead some leave home in HS to give it their shot back East/North. If you tell me they are whining, they would be very wrong IMO.

We don't have many women's college field hockey teams out here...they have to travel East to get games...don't hear them whining either...nor trying to create rules that make the Eastern teams travel as much as our teams have too. Lacrosse is starting to take root here too...same thing, no "whining" that I know about.

It goes on and on...both ways...at some point you gotta just accept some things as being inherently uneven. No amount of rule making will change it enough to matter a whole lot.

Rubber/glue? I dunno. Whatever you say I guess. I didn't think about it that way. But if it makes you happy...go ahead an think it!