Graduation Rates

HNO 3, thanks for the feedback, appreiciated as always

so from a chemistry perspective is your experience that the employment edge for grads goes ONLY to Michigan/MIT type schools or are grads of Akron/Delaware type schools in the mix as well?

One additional bit of "hearsay" info: My neighbor is a top SR partner in one of the largest law firms in the US. She graduated from a state college, both undergrad and law school. Obviously this didn't hamper her ability to do really well in her profession. She told me (lamented) that were her firm to evaluate her application today, she wouldn't have been hired because her diploma would have knocked her out of the running immediately. Her firm only hires from specific law school grad pools, as do many other prestigious firms (according to her.) She says it's partially about marketing, her firm is able to point out to clients that thier lawyers graduated from Harvard/Yale/Stanford/Penn... etc. And it's also about the firm's track record with former grads from those schools, generally they've come on board better prepared and generated more money for the firm than grads from other schools. (She'd be considered an exception to the rule.)

It doesn't mean other law school grads won't find a place to practice and succeed. They just won't be selected to join her firm or certain others that I'd consider highly prestigious. I am certain this is true of other industries and corporations as well.

It doesn't mean grads of other schools won't find jobs or go to grad school, it just means there is some intrinsic value in getting a diploma from certain schools that increases one's marketablilty as an employee or grad school applicant. It means when push comes to shove in certain situations, those with diplomas from some schools will have a greater chance than others at surviving initial cuts, or have more options available to them. JMO.

Simply put,

It's about money, always has been and always will be.
You have the money to get into one of these "prestigious" schools, you will always be one step ahead of Joe! That's the reality of the society we live in today.

TAB,

Yes, you'd need the money to go to these schools, plus the grades and scores and abilitiies to be accepted, then the work ethic to do well and graduate. Money could be personal/family money, or awarded money. It's about money, but it's also about hard work, good decisions, and an academic/extra curricular strategy that makes you an attractive candidate. I know for certain there are lots of "legacy" applicants that don't make the cut these days, regardless of family money or connections. (I have friendship connections to admissions officers at Harvard, Emory, W&M, Duke, Brown, and Vandi who confirm this.) These schools can be very selective due to the large numbers of applicants. When there is a legacy applicant that they turn down, they do make a personal call to inform them before the reject-letter arrives. I guess that's something!

As for companies, sometimes there is an assumption that with a diploma from certain schools, a grad has access to a network of contacts/referrals that is of value to a company. Networks and contacts mean money.

quote:

Originally posted by thats-a-balk!:
Simply put,

It's about money, always has been and always will be.
You have the money to get into one of these "prestigious" schools, you will always be one step ahead of Joe! That's the reality of the society we live in today.

Not truly accurate. As quillgirl pointed out, legacy plays a much smaller role these days, with merit taking a front seat in the admissions process. With the amount of private grants the ivy's now recieve, more and more money is being channeled into need based aid. For example, at Harvard, if your families AGI is under $60K, tuition is free. Also, the Financial Aid and Admissions offices are completly seperate and work autonomously from each other so as to not negatively influence the most deserving candidates.

Then there is always the service acadamies. Their admissions process is guaranteed 100% transparent as everyone gets the same deal. The degrees are highly valued and the success rates of graduates are very high. If "Joe" is willing to work and sacrifice to improve his lot in life, that is an avenue available to anyone.

Then there is always ROTC. Get financial aid in exchange for service to your country at the conclusion of school.

These are all competitive programs, so if "Joe" was achieving less in HS than he could have, and wasn't participating in constructive extra cirricular activities, then he probably won't qualify. But if "Joe" is a top student, participant in life, and has a work ethic to go along with that brain, he has plenty of options.

Aid is not available to every "Joe", but the best and brightest "Joe", rich or poor, will have no problem attending a prestigious institution of higher learning.

Get "Joe" a mirror and he'll be able to see where his successes, failures, and realized and unrealized potentials lie. It's not at the end of an outward extended index finger.

quote:

For example, at Harvard, if your families AGI is under $60K, tuition is free.

That is my point. If you make more than $60, let's say $65 with both parents working (and in todays society that's not alot of money)then you do have to fork over quite a bit of change for a school like Harvard.

For every kid you see at Harvard, Yale, Penn, there are ten more who would love to go there but cannot afford it.

quote:

Originally posted by thats-a-balk!:

quote:

For example, at Harvard, if your families AGI is under $60K, tuition is free.

That is my point. If you make more than $60, let's say $65 with both parents working (and in todays society that's not alot of money)then you do have to fork over quite a bit of change for a school like Harvard.

For every kid you see at Harvard, Yale, Penn, there are ten more who would love to go there but cannot afford it.

Universities realize the disparity you are talking about and are doing something about it.

At Harvard, if you make between 60K and I believe it's 120K, then you pay 10% of tuition, 120K to 180K you pay 20% of tuition.

Loving to go there and qualified to go there are two different things. I would challenge your 10 to 1 stat.

If they are well rounded students with the ability to qualify for admission to the ivy's, then they still have the option of a service academy.

quote:

Loving to go there and qualified to go there are two different things. I would challenge your 10 to 1 stat.

Maybe 10-1 is a little strong, but I think you get my point.

And yes "loving to go there and being qualified" are two different things, but you know as well as I do there are qualified students who would love to go there and cannot afford it.

1) some students are perfectly happy at Any-State U

2) college fit also applies culturally -
if ya shop at the dollar store & drive your uncle's hand-me-down '72 ford pick-up truck there are some schools where you wouldn't fit in

3) if a grad didn't get preferetial treatment because of the name of their institution for their 1rst job, that can easily be overcome on their next career step by their "on the job performance" -
and meanwhile they could upgrade to a later model dodge PU


good info by Quillgirl, just wondering if most would view an entry level job at a huuge law firm as their best long-term career move?

also will be sidling up to her when my daughter begins her grad school search

thats-a-balk - If you have a child who you think is qualified to attend an Ivy, Stanford, Duke, MIT, etc... I would suggest you do more research regarding the viability financially of attending.

CPLZ and quillgirl already pointed out some pretty good deals...go to Harvard for free if under $60K (Stanford has a similar deal and I would assume the others too) or pay only 10% tuition if income at more gradual (but middle-class) levels. Any service academy for free if qualified.

There are also many other levels of financial aid provided by the university based on need alone once admitted.

Admissions to these schools is also need-blind. In other words, its not considered in the admissions process. Legacy? Yes, some...but not as much as some perceive.

The fact is, you can go there or send your kids there for a reasonable price for your family's situation. The hardest part, by far is getting admitted based on qualifications.

I misstated some info and after further research, want to be clearer.

60K to 120K, you would pay, on a sliding scale, up to 10% of your income for tuition,,,etc...

Also, I drive a Cheby PU, which was discriminately excluded from Bee's examples...can's hide those biases here!

quote:

I drive a Chevy PU, which was discriminately excluded from Bee's examples

I do appologize for the ommision ...
was operating on the assumption the Chevy would come later ...
as entry level guys could not likely afford that luxury

CPLZ, I mean a guy working his way up the ladder could not afford the luxury of a sweet ride like that which was being fixed more often than being driven

I understand some H-Resource software predicts excessive absence & sick days, plus higher salary demands (repairs etc) for Chevy guys and then flags & rejects their applications
(pehaps HaverDad could confirm, if he's not out crusin' in his Peugot)

hmm, brings up a moral dilema .. should you lie about your vehicle in an interview?

tho it does offer opportunities for being on a first name basis with the dealer .. service mgr .. zone rep .. etc




hmmm, in many ways, a very educational thread

That Harvard deal was just announced a few weeks ago. It was the reult of a large alum endowment.
There are jobs that require very little education and in fact the less the better in some cases.

quote:

It was the reult of a large alum endowment.

their tax sheltered endowments (invested in offshore hedge funds) could educate generations of students if that was their goal

Its a clear trend at the high end.

Both Penn and Haverford announced similar new tuition/aid programs this month.

http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/article.php?id=1287

http://www.haverford.edu/news/stories/3821/51

I understand that Duke may be doing the same thing

It was not a single or recent set of endowments that Harvard received, the money, some 35 billion, has been accumulating for years, as it has at many finer institutions who's graduates do well and give back.

The recent programs that are emerging are coming from pressure from those same donators who feel their efforts are being hidden and squandered and are demanding their use for what they were intended...to give the less fortunate a chance.

quote:

thats-a-balk - If you have a child who you think is qualified to attend an Ivy, Stanford, Duke, MIT, etc... I would suggest you do more research regarding the viability financially of attending.

thanks for the suggestion jb, but don't have a son there yet. Will keep it in the back of my mind though.

quote:

to give the less fortunate a chance.

My point exactly CPLZ

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
HNO 3, thanks for the feedback, appreiciated as always

so from a chemistry perspective is your experience that the employment edge for grads goes ONLY to Michigan/MIT type schools or are grads of Akron/Delaware type schools in the mix as well?

That depends. University of Delaware has strong ties to Dupont, and is one of the top chemical engineering programs in the country. Therefore, those graduates have an edge over many other students, if one is talking about chemical engineering. As for Akron, they have one of the strongest polymer engineering programs in the country, so if you go there to do graduate work in polymers, you can do very well when it's time to look for a job.

A strong department in an otherwise average university can also take you places.

I assume less fortunate = less money to spen on one kid.

While where you graduated from may give you an initial advantage in your first job, business is a "what have you done for me lately" process. A foot in the door is only that...a foot, how you perform during your work career will determine where you end up.

The sheepskin is not what the school did for you, rather, what you did in school.

Many companies run around telling everyone that they hire only the "top kids from the top schools". I worked for one like that for many years, and I frequently hired junkyard dogs from local schools who ate those "top kids" for lunch.

http://wsjclassroomedition.com/archive/05mar/related_05mar_teacher_ivy.htm

Approx. 25% of college freshmen/women do not return to same school the following fall
Less then 50% of enrolling freshmen/women will graduate in four years, not to mention athletes
5-6 years is common
Taking out of season spring/summer classes may benefit many college athletes

Over the last 20 years - I have hired - and fired - many an Ivy Leaguer - and many a non-Ivy Leaguer.

Just like baseball - you either perform - or you go home.

No whining - just get it done - or get the hell out.

Unless Daddy is CEO - LOL

OS8,
In reading the article carefully, they do not do an apples to apples comparison, instead offering...

"But Ms. Moses and other critics of the Ivy League mystique argue that top UNC graduates stand a good chance of keeping pace or surpassing the salaries of those from Yale...", where the comparison then becomes top UNC grads vs. Yale averages.

I believe the article deals with equally qualified applicants. That is apples to apples comparison. It is all about performance just like on the ball diamond.

Most websters place value on, and understand the importance of, playing against the best possible baseball competition. Few among us ever question the benefit of playing for or against any travel team from East Cobb. It is after all, clearly "national level" competition.

Top end schools strategically limit admissions to students with top 10% GPAs, ACT and SAT scores. While previously unmentioned here, it's logical to expect "national level" academic classroom competition at schools with IVY league admission standards. (i.e. Classrooms FULL of highly motivated students with 4.0 HS G.P.A.s)

In sport or school, the best possible talent pools yield the best competition.

Happy 2008

As in BB you get less highly rated college teams beating the high ranked teams.
My son's roommates are both 4.0 students HS as well as college.(4.0 scale)

I would not not argue that.
There are 4.0 students in every school.

What I am pointing out is the intensity of academic competition where entire student bodies are at that level.

I have to say that when I was a university many of the top grade achievers were some of the less intelligent students I met. Job require aptitude for that line of work.
Most large companies subject the applicants to aptitude tests. I thought the article pretty well spelled out my views.
Prestigious schools will get you a leg up on entry but you have to earn and keep your spot on the team.

The bottom line is if noone but prestige schools got jobs there would be a lot of colleges dissappearing from the the face of the earth.