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What that article doesn't talk about is the kids left by the wayside in Japan due to overuse. If you overuse everyone you'll get a few who can handle it without injury and a lot who get ruined. I've got a 9yo relative just starting those 5 hour daily practices in Japan. It'll be interesting to see how it works out.
Well said, CADad.
cadad
it may just be the best thing for him? if he starts early biulding arm strength? it's like toning your muscles if done right, the unknown is if it's done right.
i want to add that i'm not so sure our way, or their way is the right way. but i think we can do better than we have done.
it may just be the best thing for him? if he starts early biulding arm strength? it's like toning your muscles if done right, the unknown is if it's done right.
i want to add that i'm not so sure our way, or their way is the right way. but i think we can do better than we have done.
Baseballbum;
Please note that the pitchers mound is lower in Japan than in the USA. Since 1983, Goodwill Series has organized the Japan National High School Team baseball event with our American teams.
For the past 23 years, I have noticed a reduction of velocity with the Japanese pitchers. Their control remains their major asset.
The Japan pro pitcher is facing only a few power hitters. They can make a mistake and it does not effect the outcome of the game. In the MBL if a pitcher makes a mistake it is a three run HR.
My concern is the metal bats used by the Japan HS hitters and their daily practice for 9 months, 6 days each week. They swing the bat like a "samurai". Several Japan HS pitchers have been killed.
You may desire to read the book about Sadaharu OH; the "Zen way of baseball".
Bob Williams
Please note that the pitchers mound is lower in Japan than in the USA. Since 1983, Goodwill Series has organized the Japan National High School Team baseball event with our American teams.
For the past 23 years, I have noticed a reduction of velocity with the Japanese pitchers. Their control remains their major asset.
The Japan pro pitcher is facing only a few power hitters. They can make a mistake and it does not effect the outcome of the game. In the MBL if a pitcher makes a mistake it is a three run HR.
My concern is the metal bats used by the Japan HS hitters and their daily practice for 9 months, 6 days each week. They swing the bat like a "samurai". Several Japan HS pitchers have been killed.
You may desire to read the book about Sadaharu OH; the "Zen way of baseball".
Bob Williams
I am in no way in favor of "overusing" pitchers but I do believe we can get more out of them. Then again it is an individual thing for each pitcher. Some are just tougher and stronger than others. I believe you just have to know your players and use them accordingly but pretty much in every case error on the side of caution.
IMO This is one of the most important topics we have here. There is a great thread going on about this in the Illinois Forum. It should be moved here where more people are likely to add their thoughts.
Horror Stories
It's possible that we know less about this very important subject than most anything else in baseball. Yet there are more expert opinions on this topic than most.
Horror Stories
It's possible that we know less about this very important subject than most anything else in baseball. Yet there are more expert opinions on this topic than most.
Interesting. My son pitched in a game for the first time in a year and a half on Saturday. He told the coach he was good for 30 to 35 pitches. He was pulled after a 17 pitch inning. Smart move. He was throwing about 10 mph faster than a year and a half ago and about 6 mph faster than 3 weeks ago and his shoulder was a bit sore later in the day.
On the other hand the 15yo LHP sophmore who threw 107 pitches on Friday played in the second game of the Saturday doubleheader and caught the last few innings. Not a good move. The kids love to play and will tell a coach their arm is fine when it is killing them.
On the other hand the 15yo LHP sophmore who threw 107 pitches on Friday played in the second game of the Saturday doubleheader and caught the last few innings. Not a good move. The kids love to play and will tell a coach their arm is fine when it is killing them.
I have seen several, actually more than several, young pitchers come down with either arm injuries or "dead arms". When I coached them, their arms were fine, and these particular boys showed great promise on the mound. We always held the boys to pitch count limits. And no pitching twice in a day or weekend as is common with some teams.
After I stopped coaching, they moved on to other teams. A season or two later, I heard of their arm problems. And in talking with the parents, I found out that the boys had been overused. Throwing 100 or more pithes in one game, throwing complete games on consecutive days, etc.
Coincidence?
Some pitchers can do it. That has been proven in history.
But IMHO, there is no way to find out which particular pitcher can do it other than going through the experience. So do we hurt nine kids arms just to find the one who has a "rubber arm"?
Or do we err on the side of caution? [Even if that means that perhaps the occasional "rubber arm" doesn't get discovered?]
Personally, I'm for the latter.
After I stopped coaching, they moved on to other teams. A season or two later, I heard of their arm problems. And in talking with the parents, I found out that the boys had been overused. Throwing 100 or more pithes in one game, throwing complete games on consecutive days, etc.
Coincidence?
Some pitchers can do it. That has been proven in history.
But IMHO, there is no way to find out which particular pitcher can do it other than going through the experience. So do we hurt nine kids arms just to find the one who has a "rubber arm"?
Or do we err on the side of caution? [Even if that means that perhaps the occasional "rubber arm" doesn't get discovered?]
Personally, I'm for the latter.
Texan ...
One thing that we have noticed over the years is that the pitchers who (allegedly) had rubber arms when they were 15 or 16 or 17 seemed to end their baseball careers earlier than those who were more deliberated and careful about frequency of pitching, number of pitches, etc. The old 'rubber' arms weren't able to keep 'bouncing back' after several years of (mis)use.
One thing that we have noticed over the years is that the pitchers who (allegedly) had rubber arms when they were 15 or 16 or 17 seemed to end their baseball careers earlier than those who were more deliberated and careful about frequency of pitching, number of pitches, etc. The old 'rubber' arms weren't able to keep 'bouncing back' after several years of (mis)use.
Some humble thoughts from a non-pitcher's parent...
Perhaps all these discussions on pitch counts, innings, frequency, rest, abuse, etc., etc., etc. are missing the point of why there are injuries in the first place.
I think we can all agree that if kids were asked to merely lob the ball underhand that the injury problem would be solved forever.
Just maybe, we are asking too much from these kids. Maybe our expectations are all out of whack in this country. Maybe the kid who can hit 90 on the radar gun when the scouts are there should never be throwing that hard to begin with (at least at that point in his career). Just maybe the radar gun is the WORST invention that has ever happened to baseball.
Here is a simple dumb-headed solution to the problem. Teach kids to PITCH. In other words, pitch at a velocity that is comfortable at that stage in their development. Pitch without ever having a discussion on pain. Learn to get guys out with your natural stuff and no more. Take a long term view that you have years to develop enough velocity and other pitches that it is not necessarily worth it to throw that hard in 11th grade.
Please don't get me wrong. I know how the recruiting game is played - especially for pitchers. I am only suggesting that the injuries we are discussing may be more induced from our expectations rather than actual routine.
Perhaps all these discussions on pitch counts, innings, frequency, rest, abuse, etc., etc., etc. are missing the point of why there are injuries in the first place.
I think we can all agree that if kids were asked to merely lob the ball underhand that the injury problem would be solved forever.
Just maybe, we are asking too much from these kids. Maybe our expectations are all out of whack in this country. Maybe the kid who can hit 90 on the radar gun when the scouts are there should never be throwing that hard to begin with (at least at that point in his career). Just maybe the radar gun is the WORST invention that has ever happened to baseball.
Here is a simple dumb-headed solution to the problem. Teach kids to PITCH. In other words, pitch at a velocity that is comfortable at that stage in their development. Pitch without ever having a discussion on pain. Learn to get guys out with your natural stuff and no more. Take a long term view that you have years to develop enough velocity and other pitches that it is not necessarily worth it to throw that hard in 11th grade.
Please don't get me wrong. I know how the recruiting game is played - especially for pitchers. I am only suggesting that the injuries we are discussing may be more induced from our expectations rather than actual routine.
CD, you bring up a good point and I think that is a contributing factor in some cases. But I don't think it explains all the arm injuries coming up at 12, 13, 14, 15 YO. At least not in the ones I have personally observed.
Just saw this post from 20Dad in the Illinois Forum and it supports some of the arguments above:
quote:20dad
HSBBWeb Old Timer
Posted March 26, 2007 12:58 PM Hide Post
i found this post to be the best one in a long time.i wouldent have seen it if pg didn't let the cat out of the bag. i found this article to be interesting
----------------------------------------------------
Glenn Fleisig, a biomechanical engineer who studies pitching at the American Sports Medicine Institute in Birmingham, Ala., has calculated that about 80 Newton-meters of torque act on an elite pitcher's elbow when he throws a fastball. The ulnar collateral ligament connects the humerus and ulna—two of the bones that come together in the elbow. To test the outer limits of the ligament's strength, Fleisig subjected cadaver elbows to increasing amounts of rotational force. These experiments showed that an average person's UCL snaps at about 80 Newton-meters. Smoky Joe Wood said that he threw so fast he thought his arm was going to fly off. It turns out he wasn't far from the truth. The reason pitchers get injured in the first place is that their muscles, tendons, and ligaments weren't as strong as they should have been.
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i've often wondered if a young pitchers new found velocity was the big reason for arm injury's. an 18 year old's arm that isn't fully developed
may not be ready for 90? any way great discussion.
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Just maybe the radar gun is the WORST invention that has ever happened to baseball.
Could be CD. However,I think it was PG who brought up a great point in another thread that the "dirty, rotten, good for nothing gun" actually is a great tool for determining a pitchers "effectivness" as a game goes on.
But is velocity a measure of effectiveness? I always thought of effectiveness as getting batters out.
A drop in velocity may be an indicator of a tiring arm, and a tiring arm is not an effective or healthy arm. IMO
that's a great aritcle about Matsuzaka, tho I thought it was a bit scarry that some experts want to "explode old myths" already
we used to chat with Bob Feller when he did the Tribe's preseason dinner thing .. my opnions are somewhat formed from stuff he said plus common sense
maybe it's just so simple it's overlooked by the experts
some guys are blessed with durable arms ie: "born to throw" .. those guys get thru youth, hs, & beyond with very few or no problems ...
years back guys with the weaker arms just fell by the wayside
today, guys with "less durable" arms have access at a very young age to specialized instruction, advanced conditioning, & fine tuned mechanics allowing success at all levels ...
however the advanced training methods and polish did NOT make their arm DURABLE ..
it just extended whatever it's natural life was already
at higher levels these guys can be really good, have perfect mechanics, etc - but they've just put off the inevitable
just my 2 cents
we used to chat with Bob Feller when he did the Tribe's preseason dinner thing .. my opnions are somewhat formed from stuff he said plus common sense
maybe it's just so simple it's overlooked by the experts
some guys are blessed with durable arms ie: "born to throw" .. those guys get thru youth, hs, & beyond with very few or no problems ...
years back guys with the weaker arms just fell by the wayside
today, guys with "less durable" arms have access at a very young age to specialized instruction, advanced conditioning, & fine tuned mechanics allowing success at all levels ...
however the advanced training methods and polish did NOT make their arm DURABLE ..
it just extended whatever it's natural life was already
at higher levels these guys can be really good, have perfect mechanics, etc - but they've just put off the inevitable
just my 2 cents
Interesting perspective, bee.
rz1, I understand that a drop in velocity can be a sign of tiring. And at some point, tiring will lead to the pitcher having trouble getting batters out. And a tired arm is more prone to injury.
But I would just tend to think of effectiveness in terms other than velocity.
But I would just tend to think of effectiveness in terms other than velocity.
Texan,
I understand what you mean and I agree but velocity is a piece of the effectivness puzzle and the gun is the "data collector"
I understand what you mean and I agree but velocity is a piece of the effectivness puzzle and the gun is the "data collector"
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Just maybe the radar gun is the WORST invention that has ever happened to baseball.
I completely agree.
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Here is a simple dumb-headed solution to the problem. Teach kids to PITCH. In other words, pitch at a velocity that is comfortable at that stage in their development. Pitch without ever having a discussion on pain. Learn to get guys out with your natural stuff and no more. Take a long term view that you have years to develop enough velocity and other pitches that it is not necessarily worth it to throw that hard in 11th grade.
IMO, too many kids throw unnecessarily hard. That means harder than it takes to get guys out.
In many cases, that is because velocity has become an end in and of itself rather than just a means to an end.
The same thing could be said for the curveball in LL.
quote:
IMO, too many kids throw unnecessarily hard. That means harder than it takes to get guys out.
Chris , if you want to continue to have your kids not reach their potential keep giving them lines and statements like this. This is why many people do not take you seriously and you are limiting kids. So in other words you do not want kids to learn a fastball?
Yep. Those guys without rubber arms are useless and just postponing the inevitable. Look at Pedro Martinez. He's a prime example. Should have quit years ago instead of pitching just 6 innings a game and still being the best pitcher in the game. Boy, did the Dodgers make the right decision trading him or what? 
Everybody is different. You do your best to develop each player as much as possible without causing serious injury. It isn't easy to get it right.
Everybody is different. You do your best to develop each player as much as possible without causing serious injury. It isn't easy to get it right.
quote:Originally posted by baseballbum:
Chris, if you want to continue to have your kids not reach their potential keep giving them lines and statements like this. This is why many people do not take you seriously and you are limiting kids. So in other words you do not want kids to learn a fastball?
First, the way to ensure that a kid reaches his potential is to ensure that he doesn't destroy his arm when he's passing through the danger zone of 12 to 14 years of age. One way to do that is to encourage kids to not throw any harder than they need to. When they are out of the danger zone (e.g. Junior or Senior year in HS), then they can start to dial it up.
Second, it's ridiculous to say that I don't want kids to learn a fastball. Yesterday I worked with my pitchers and all we worked on were fastballs (4-Seamers and 2-Seamers). However, we didn't work on raw velocity. Instead, we worked on keeping the ball down in the zone and hitting your spots (low and away). I am also teaching them how to use a 2-Seamer as a complement to a 4-Seamer to induce chasing and ground outs.
If you can do that, then you don't have to blow people away to get them out.
One of my kids throws REALLY hard, but I'm not sure exactly how hard he throws since I've never measured him on a radar gun. In part that's because he's the kind of kid who would try to see how hard he can throw rather than focus on learning how to actually pitch.
As it is, when he tries to throw to hard he starts to rush and ends up elevating the ball and getting creamed.
Funny to read this today. Regarding the injuries situation, I have no idea what is too much or not enough throwing. I'd tend to lean toward the cautious side to protect arms but who knows whats the "correct" ammount?
Regarding the velocity, just spent the weekend thinking about that. My son has always been a solid lefty pitcher but labeled a "soft tosser". At times he'd get up to 86-88 and last summer was 85-90 before a short stint at Cape Cod. He's always thrown easy & loose and been taught not to overthrow.
As a college soph he's having success thus far getting hitters out - decent e.r.a, not being hit hard, lots of ground balls, and other than 1st start has had real good control. Problem is his velo is down again just when it needs to start dialing up from a scouting standpoint. I'm thrilled he's having success which is obviously the goal.
However, he's flashed enough velocity on occasion to be a decent draft prospect if he could stay near that velo. Sat behind 4 scouts at his game on Sat. He threw his 3rd consecutive good game but was only 80-84. Of course scouts watched 6-8 pitches and put guns away for good. I fully understand that as I know anything under 84-85 in college gets labeled "np" non-prospect.
I don't want to say anything to my son about it as it's great watching him succeed. But it's hard as I know he'd like to have chance to get a shot in minors and that chance won't come unless he ramps up the velocity. The #'s look good on a website and in a scrapbook but getting guys out means nothing when it comes to getting paid - it's all about the gun and a tough thing for some kids. Hopefully he can ramp up the velo but I'm beginning to wonder if he might be more consistent with that if he'd grown up "letting it fly". Again, who knows - at least he is healthy and pitching.
Regarding the velocity, just spent the weekend thinking about that. My son has always been a solid lefty pitcher but labeled a "soft tosser". At times he'd get up to 86-88 and last summer was 85-90 before a short stint at Cape Cod. He's always thrown easy & loose and been taught not to overthrow.
As a college soph he's having success thus far getting hitters out - decent e.r.a, not being hit hard, lots of ground balls, and other than 1st start has had real good control. Problem is his velo is down again just when it needs to start dialing up from a scouting standpoint. I'm thrilled he's having success which is obviously the goal.
However, he's flashed enough velocity on occasion to be a decent draft prospect if he could stay near that velo. Sat behind 4 scouts at his game on Sat. He threw his 3rd consecutive good game but was only 80-84. Of course scouts watched 6-8 pitches and put guns away for good. I fully understand that as I know anything under 84-85 in college gets labeled "np" non-prospect.
I don't want to say anything to my son about it as it's great watching him succeed. But it's hard as I know he'd like to have chance to get a shot in minors and that chance won't come unless he ramps up the velocity. The #'s look good on a website and in a scrapbook but getting guys out means nothing when it comes to getting paid - it's all about the gun and a tough thing for some kids. Hopefully he can ramp up the velo but I'm beginning to wonder if he might be more consistent with that if he'd grown up "letting it fly". Again, who knows - at least he is healthy and pitching.
i find the whole pitching thing to be like the unanswerable question. but a very interesting study. i also found this statement to be the truest in baseball
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"I think the theory in professional baseball is that velocity gets you signed, and getting people out gets you to the big leagues."
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i think that is why some kids have troubles with their arms. i would like to know how many tj surgery's are performed on kids that throw say 85 vs 90. or do those pitchers tend to have more shoulder trouble? lots of questions rambling around in my knoggin.not many answers.
------------------------------------------------
"I think the theory in professional baseball is that velocity gets you signed, and getting people out gets you to the big leagues."
------------------------------------------------
i think that is why some kids have troubles with their arms. i would like to know how many tj surgery's are performed on kids that throw say 85 vs 90. or do those pitchers tend to have more shoulder trouble? lots of questions rambling around in my knoggin.not many answers.
Several of you guys have touched on it......Every player is different. Throughout the years I have had pitching staffs throw hard everyday, throw hard only on game day, and everything in between. I have been coaching hs ball for 12 years now, and have not had one player (knock on wood) have arm surgury. Part of that is luck, part of that is the great strenght and conditioning that we do, and part is knowing what your players can do. Ex. Friday night we had a pitcher reach his pitch # after 6 innings. So, we took him out and let someone else close the game even though, he was still being effective. Matter of fact he was throwing harder in the 6th than the 1st. It is also more than just pitch counts. (It has been discussed here before). Long innings are harder on your total than short innings, etc.
I currently have two recruit type players that throw in the 90+ range. One throws hard almost every day and the other only throws hard on game day. Maybe I am older and wiser, but find what works best for each individual. And just because traditional baseball wisdom says you should do things a certain way, does not mean that is the best way for everyone.
I currently have two recruit type players that throw in the 90+ range. One throws hard almost every day and the other only throws hard on game day. Maybe I am older and wiser, but find what works best for each individual. And just because traditional baseball wisdom says you should do things a certain way, does not mean that is the best way for everyone.
quote:at least he is healthy and pitching.
denisir - that is my whole point. Would it be better to say your son threw 90's in high school but is now recovering from TJ surgery?
Obviously, some people can throw really hard at a young age and not affect their health. I wonder what that number really is. Sandy Koufax could still pitch when he retired. He knew he was throwing above his body's capability.
ClevelandDad,
Most of us don't have to worry about the risks of having our kids throw in the 90s in HS. You might want to ask the Adenharts if it was worth it in a year or two.
20dad,
The harder you throw the more the risk, however you can build up the tendons and ligaments to some degree. You can also condition some of the muscles that help take the load off the UCL.
Most of us don't have to worry about the risks of having our kids throw in the 90s in HS. You might want to ask the Adenharts if it was worth it in a year or two.
20dad,
The harder you throw the more the risk, however you can build up the tendons and ligaments to some degree. You can also condition some of the muscles that help take the load off the UCL.
Read between the lines ---- Even that little voice in Matsuzaka's head is talking to him. ---- "I'm going to do my best, doryoku, to keep my pitch count low and be able to pitch into the later innings," Matsuzaka says.
Are all UCLs the same? Are some thicker, longer, stronger than others?
The test mentioned earlier about torque… Wouldn’t that be different from one pitcher to the next, based on size/length even weight, of the arm itself? Wonder if the cadaver had good mechanics? Actually I think it’s great that these things are being studied.
Sometimes we talk about the guy who throws a lot or throws high velocity without injury as being the “exception to the rule”. In spite of the many TJ surgeries now days, there are many more pitchers who have not had it. So an argument could be made that those who have had TJ surgery are the “exception to the rule” because most haven’t had TJ surgery.
I think a thorough study should be made using number of pitches, number of innings, amount of rest, size, physical condition, types of pitches, history of the pitcher, and everything else available on every pitcher who has made it to the top. Then we could maybe look at this chart and find out more about each category and the actual risk involved.
I want to know why Billy Wagner has been able to do what he has done. How does his arm handle the torque? How did Nolan Ryan survive, throwing more pitches than anyone in history and being a high 90s power pitcher. I’m not sure it’s just lucky that these things happen. Then there’s Roger Clemens and Randy Johnson! The four mentioned above are all different sizes and body types, with different deliveries, three starters and one relief pitcher. The thing they have in common is they all could be described as power pitchers and they seem to stay healthier than others.
Just discounting them and calling them the “exception to the rule” and leaving it at that… Just isn’t enough IMO. Let’s face it, all the greatest pitchers in history have been exceptions to the rule. That is something all of the very best have in common. Is there more that they all have in common?
Risk and reward… Sandy Koufax
Did he have the best mechanics?
He blew his arm, but before that happened, for 5 years he was one of the greatest pitchers who ever lived and he is in the HOF.
Did he throw too much?
Would he have been as successful if his mechanics were different? Would his arm stayed healthier and stronger, giving him a longer career?
If they wouldn’t have pitched him as much, would he have been the greatest pitcher in his era. He probably would have lasted longer, but would he have been as great?
The Risk – Arm
The Reward – He became one of the greatest pitchers who ever lived
If the limits aren’t tested at least a little… How do you find out what the limits are? Do we take it easy and shoot for mediocracy?
Just another way to look at things in a very complex topic. BTW, despite what this might look like… I’m a big believer in pitch counts, sufficient recovery time, proper conditioning and not abusing pitchers. That said… I think we still have a lot to learn about this subject.
The test mentioned earlier about torque… Wouldn’t that be different from one pitcher to the next, based on size/length even weight, of the arm itself? Wonder if the cadaver had good mechanics? Actually I think it’s great that these things are being studied.
Sometimes we talk about the guy who throws a lot or throws high velocity without injury as being the “exception to the rule”. In spite of the many TJ surgeries now days, there are many more pitchers who have not had it. So an argument could be made that those who have had TJ surgery are the “exception to the rule” because most haven’t had TJ surgery.
I think a thorough study should be made using number of pitches, number of innings, amount of rest, size, physical condition, types of pitches, history of the pitcher, and everything else available on every pitcher who has made it to the top. Then we could maybe look at this chart and find out more about each category and the actual risk involved.
I want to know why Billy Wagner has been able to do what he has done. How does his arm handle the torque? How did Nolan Ryan survive, throwing more pitches than anyone in history and being a high 90s power pitcher. I’m not sure it’s just lucky that these things happen. Then there’s Roger Clemens and Randy Johnson! The four mentioned above are all different sizes and body types, with different deliveries, three starters and one relief pitcher. The thing they have in common is they all could be described as power pitchers and they seem to stay healthier than others.
Just discounting them and calling them the “exception to the rule” and leaving it at that… Just isn’t enough IMO. Let’s face it, all the greatest pitchers in history have been exceptions to the rule. That is something all of the very best have in common. Is there more that they all have in common?
Risk and reward… Sandy Koufax
Did he have the best mechanics?
He blew his arm, but before that happened, for 5 years he was one of the greatest pitchers who ever lived and he is in the HOF.
Did he throw too much?
Would he have been as successful if his mechanics were different? Would his arm stayed healthier and stronger, giving him a longer career?
If they wouldn’t have pitched him as much, would he have been the greatest pitcher in his era. He probably would have lasted longer, but would he have been as great?
The Risk – Arm
The Reward – He became one of the greatest pitchers who ever lived
If the limits aren’t tested at least a little… How do you find out what the limits are? Do we take it easy and shoot for mediocracy?
Just another way to look at things in a very complex topic. BTW, despite what this might look like… I’m a big believer in pitch counts, sufficient recovery time, proper conditioning and not abusing pitchers. That said… I think we still have a lot to learn about this subject.
i agree with that last statement pg. we all know where are kids are now, after surgery or not. i know my son was over used, but with not much thought by any one if he had a future in baseball? not that makes any difference. he threw in the low 90's but only for about 5 months. was it cumulative damage done over time,and the stress of throwing hard was the straw? probably so. we'll see how he makes out at the other end, but this topic really interests me. i'm glad it interests others as well.
PG
Im curious what you dont like about Koufax's delivery. I only ask because you have brought this up in previous posts (regarding Koufax). What would you change in his delivery?
quote:Risk and reward… Sandy Koufax
Did he have the best mechanics?
He blew his arm, but before that happened, for 5 years he was one of the greatest pitchers who ever lived and he is in the HOF.
Did he throw too much?
Would he have been as successful if his mechanics were different? Would his arm stayed healthier and stronger, giving him a longer career?
Im curious what you dont like about Koufax's delivery. I only ask because you have brought this up in previous posts (regarding Koufax). What would you change in his delivery?
deemax,
I'm not stupid (not that stupid anyway)
I wouldn't change a thing!
Maybe I didn't make my point very clear by asking the questions. I think his delivery was an important reason why he was so good. I doubt he would have been as good using a different delivery.
However, if there is a kid out there somewhere who throws exactly like Koufax, I bet there will be someone trying to change him.
I'm not stupid (not that stupid anyway)
I wouldn't change a thing!
Maybe I didn't make my point very clear by asking the questions. I think his delivery was an important reason why he was so good. I doubt he would have been as good using a different delivery.
However, if there is a kid out there somewhere who throws exactly like Koufax, I bet there will be someone trying to change him.
pg
Touche... And there inlies the biggest problem with todays gurus...(Honestly PG, I wasnt looking to set you up, I was just curious why you refer to Koufax when questioning great pitchers mechanics as to being good or bad...)
quote:However, if there is a kid out there somewhere who throws exactly like Koufax, I bet there will be someone trying to change him.
Touche... And there inlies the biggest problem with todays gurus...(Honestly PG, I wasnt looking to set you up, I was just curious why you refer to Koufax when questioning great pitchers mechanics as to being good or bad...)
Interesting discussion. And not a single bench clearing brawl... 
PG - this is a fascinating topic and really many ways to analyze it. Maybe the reason there seems to be more arm surgeries these days is because technology has advanced. Maybe in the old days, your career just ended.
The reason I mentioned Koufax is because of the comments he made about pain upon retirement. It almost sounded like he felt that the way he pitched was not good for his long term health. Not really sure about that though. I do not advocate mediocrity but I would like kids to learn to throw without pain. We can argue many things anecdotally, but it seems to me that there is a message from pain.
The reason I mentioned Koufax is because of the comments he made about pain upon retirement. It almost sounded like he felt that the way he pitched was not good for his long term health. Not really sure about that though. I do not advocate mediocrity but I would like kids to learn to throw without pain. We can argue many things anecdotally, but it seems to me that there is a message from pain.
ClevelandDad,
I'm sure we would all agree... Pain is a very clear message!
Normally in this topic, I would take the stand with most everyone else against pitcher abuse. But there are plenty who will believe that way. In order to study this thing completely, it has to be looked at both ways and with a somewhat open mind.
I would be the first to admit, I don't really truly understand it all and I wonder if anyone really does! The PC thing is to play it safe! While there are coaches who are abusing pitchers, I think there might be even more who might be babying them a bit too much. This caused by not wanting to be responsible for injuries. Also, because of the "bad" reputation it can cause to the coach.
Personally, I think sufficient recovery time is even more important than a pitch count. Most every surgery I've been involved with was due to lack of recovery time more than high pitch counts. In other words, every arm is injured (to an extent) each time a pitcher has finished throwing. Obviously the higher the pitch count, the more recovery time is needed. But when that pitcher comes back too soon, and isn't fully recovered, he is basically taking the mound with an "injured" arm or at the very least an arm that has not recovered completely. This is something that is dangerous and I have first hand experience of seeing the results of this, several times.
On another note... Anyone ever wonder what the affect of weight training and other conditioning has had on arm injuries? I still think studying pitchers from other parts of the world, specifically Latin American and Asian countries could tell us an awful lot.
I'm sure we would all agree... Pain is a very clear message!
Normally in this topic, I would take the stand with most everyone else against pitcher abuse. But there are plenty who will believe that way. In order to study this thing completely, it has to be looked at both ways and with a somewhat open mind.
I would be the first to admit, I don't really truly understand it all and I wonder if anyone really does! The PC thing is to play it safe! While there are coaches who are abusing pitchers, I think there might be even more who might be babying them a bit too much. This caused by not wanting to be responsible for injuries. Also, because of the "bad" reputation it can cause to the coach.
Personally, I think sufficient recovery time is even more important than a pitch count. Most every surgery I've been involved with was due to lack of recovery time more than high pitch counts. In other words, every arm is injured (to an extent) each time a pitcher has finished throwing. Obviously the higher the pitch count, the more recovery time is needed. But when that pitcher comes back too soon, and isn't fully recovered, he is basically taking the mound with an "injured" arm or at the very least an arm that has not recovered completely. This is something that is dangerous and I have first hand experience of seeing the results of this, several times.
On another note... Anyone ever wonder what the affect of weight training and other conditioning has had on arm injuries? I still think studying pitchers from other parts of the world, specifically Latin American and Asian countries could tell us an awful lot.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Are all UCLs the same? Are some thicker, longer, stronger than others?
The are pretty much the same. There is less variability than with muscles.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Risk and reward… Sandy Koufax. Did he have the best mechanics? He blew his arm, but before that happened, for 5 years he was one of the greatest pitchers who ever lived and he is in the HOF.
Did he throw too much?
I really like Koufax's mechanics. I think what did him in was mostly genetics and overuse. Koufax had a congenital circulatory problem in his pitching arm that probably impeded his arm's ability to heel. He then pitched too much on an already compromised arm.