Great site for advice

Good question I continue to watch some college programs and just walk away shaking my head.

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Welcome to the HSBBW jiminy. Like 2bagger said...some things will always remain unexplained unfortunately. It can be very confusing.



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jiminy, do you know how many "amazing hitting" - highly ranked incoming freshman to D1 programs make their D1 debut at 0-14 before the coach pulls them?

Lots, and I dont want to embarrass them by calling them out. Pick a few teams and go through last years stats. You will see a few success stories but you will also see a lot of struggles.

This happens because D1 is hard (Actually.. college ball in general is hard!). The whole line up is good. There is an extra couple of innings. There is a learning curve. I would say that a good coach would ease a freshman player into that role.

The freshman are playing against competition that is 3-4 years older, more physically mature, more mentally mature, with more playing experience - in tougher playing circumstances.

I would probably lean more toward the upperclassman too.. Then ease the great hitting freshman into the role.

There are a couple of possible considerations;

1. You must be able to play great defense to start in College.
2. There is an element in College of what we in the Military called "RHIP" (Rank Has It's Privileges). I.E., which in College baseball speak means; "you have to pay your dues!" Upperclassmen have done so, underclassmen have not. Thus, if things are even close to equal, upperclassmen with experience (in the game and with the Coach) will play first. As it should be, in my book.

As an example; my Freshmen position player son (recruited for his bat) just finished their Fall Season. Coaches typically have individual meetings with players and let them know where they stand. They told my "Hitter" son that "they don't see him starting on defense for two years." Why, because they have more experienced, seasoned upperclassmen ahead of him who, themselves, have waited a couple of years for their chance! And, "oh by the way, we are planning to use you not as an infielder but an outfielder." Furthermore, they said, "if you start it will be as a Designated Hitter."

None of that should be particularly surprising to anyone that understands the business of College Baseball. College Coaches value experience, maturity, talent and their financial investments to date.

Now if my boy gets his DH start and continually bangs the cover off the ball (like they want him to do), I suspect the Coach will try harder and faster to find him a starting defensive position!

That is a "Tough Row to Hoe" and although I know this is commonplace and expected, I don't think my son would have survived.

This is probably where a good number of D-1 Transfers come from, not players that were cut, but players that were told that in spite of their performance, they were a few notches down the food chain because of seniority.

If there is anyone less self-aware than a baseball dad slamming a college coach because his (freshman/soph?) son isn't getting the playing time he wants him to get, I don't know who it would be.

This kind of comment is usually made in the high school threads and thank goodness most of us dads have learned to take the blinders off by the time our kids have graduated from hs and moved on.

One of my memo's to self when I attend a baseball game is stay away from the dad in the stands with the clip board keeping stats. From my experience its often just a vehicle to point out how he knows more than the coach. I might suggest letting your son deal with what he has to deal with on his own.

Good luck.

I didn't seem to think he slamming anyone, looked like he was asking a question. Not even sure it was about his son, I know my comment was not about my son.

Having attended many college baseball game I don't see the dads keeping stats in the stands, however I don't spend much time in the stands.

I do not wish to be an antagonist, and I agree wholeheartedly that a Player, and the Players support team, should know very well where they stand and what their expectations of playing time would be BEFORE a LOI is signed.

We constantly hear that if "You Can Hit You Will Play", but when a player, albeit through the Fall season, it out-hitting their perceived competition, you can see how a player may be disillusioned.

It definitely is what it is! And I don't necessarily feel that it is well mannered to attack a father who is posting for the first time and surprised that the "Cream does not always rise to the top".

I take his statement at face value since I have no other information, that his player out-hit his competition for a position and plays defense on the same level.

It is a fair question, even if his player is new to the program, and a discussion that is valuable to other posters as they continue their baseball journey and prepare to sign their LOI’s.

Welcome aboard Jiminy!

2bagger, Im with you. I did not pick up jimminy as slamming. Just posed a question. Lets give everyone the benefit of the doubt here.

I love the RHIP comment. (I gonna use that!)

And, jiminey.. here is another thought. The Senior .200 hitter is hitting on average .200 better than the incoming freshman... who right now has an average of .000

You must earn the field time.

That said, I know every coach tells every kid "you are my guy!!!!! I am building my whole (infield, outfield, defense, pitching) around you! You have the opportunity to be a middle of the line up impact hitter right away!

And the coach is right. Each player has that opportunity or he would not have recruited the player.

If that freshman hitter is really amazing the bat will be in his hands soon enough!

My guess is the son is the underlying topic of the question.

Regarding second guessing coaches, at any level it is one of the great things about baseball. Because there are so many games in a season and its pace is so slow that strategy plays a part in its outcome, questioning a coach's decision is a valid part of the game. However that natural inclination becomes anything but objective when it involves your son's playing time at the collegiate level.

I think when it comes to voicing "objective" criticism of college coaches and your son's lack of playing time, parents would be best suited to follow Archer Bunker's advice to Edith and "just stifle it."

Thanks for your opinion igbal, it is so noted.

Most college coaches who value their jobs find a way over the course of a season to move the lineup in a direction that consistently improves the team's offensive output. I take it that it's early in your son's college career; so, I'd suggest that you take a deep breath and see how things sort themselves out over the course of the season.

Also, be careful about relying too much on statistics. It's not unusual for coaches to try to find a way to get players who aren't playing much against conference opponents over the weekend into the mid-week lineup, where competitive intensity is often a bit less severe. If that's the case, a mid-week player can end up with some pretty good looking statistics compared to the teammate who's facing the conference's best arms on the weekend.

Best of luck to your son! If he's a real hitter, I bet that you end up seeing him play plenty of innings over the course of his college career.

quote:

I have read the many post about freshman having to earn their starting spots over upper classmen but real scenario: why would a head baseball coach at a D1 college opt to start a senior OF who started as a freshman and batted .260 then as soph .218 and last year as JR .210 knowing he has a handful of younger players who can hit???

If the senior hits as you are predicting, the lower classman will get plenty of opportunities at some point in the spring.

quote:

Now if my boy gets his DH start and continually bangs the cover off the ball (like they want him to do), I suspect the Coach will try harder and faster to find him a starting defensive position!

Its a long season folks.A loooong season.There will be injuries, and illnesses and other issues. How the line up starts out will most likely not be the same in the Spring.I belive the senior should get the nod in the beginning.Fall ball and Spring are completely different.The Friday night game under the lights, the fans, the intensity of D1 baseball can move a little fast for SOME freshmen.

Just relax and let things unfold.No good college coach is going to not play somebody raking the ball.he may give the senior time to produce, but after some games if hes not , others will play.

I started a topic about expectations, guess this may be a perfect example of what to expect.

RHIP pretty much sums it up.

Upperclassman bring something to the team freshman don't, it's called experience. Upperclassman know they have to prove they can't, freshman have to prove they can.

You might just see the better player sit the bench at first, that's just the way it is sometimes.

Fanofgame is right, it's a long season, very long, the lineup rarely remains the same.

I remember son's coach saying it actually takes him 20-22 games before he can figure it out, sit back and relax.

Remember, when you get above the high school level, the seasons become a marathon, not a sprint.

Most college season for games anyhow last about 3 months, it is a grind with the travel. But as far as the length of the season from mid feb to mid may.

If the coach takes 20-22 games to figure it out they will be almost halfway through the season. You would think they would have a better idea going into the season.

Just stopping back.

Appreciate great responses that are helpful. I get the whole seniority thing and they have to lose their starting spots. Most missed the fact this same player started as a freshman and has stayed in the line up with less than stellar stats to boot.

igball's attack missed completely I noted multiple better OF hitters based on Fall ball stats "coach posted" not some daddy took from the bleachers. Sorry, I don't have 3 sons vying for a starting spot. I do have an interest in this team doing better.

Will disagree that the better hitters (plural) have not yet demonstrated they can hit D1 pitching 1)each had over 50 at bats in the fall against D1 pitchers and all hit better than chosen starter did against same pitching and per COACH posted stats. 2) to be frank, starter has not demonstrated proficiency in hitting D1 pitching over last 2 seasons.

This is a team that lost "12" 1 run games last year
so it seems odd to start any (forget senior) but ANY player who over last 2 years has significantly decreased their batting average to where .210 IMO should not guarantee a starting spot. It goes against "you can hit you will play."

That said, I'll take the welcomed advice from those that said coach needs to let senior start with the belief he won't wait too long to try somebody else if the starter does not produce.

Jiminy

My point really wasn't about who compiled the stats but rather the bias of those who evaluate them. That being said since you're new I probably should have backed off and if you really don't have a horse in the outfield race (?) then you have my apologies too.

Well as for why the coach is sticking with the senior over the other players the only thing I have is - who knows???

Maybe the coach just has a thing for this kid or his dad is a huge contributor of money or whatever. It's frustrating and hard to understand but it is what it is. The guys on the bench have to keep working hard to prove they deserve to be in the lineup and force a change or they are ready when they finally get a chance to crack the lineup.

Jiminy what is the team's overall record (I'm not asking what the team is but just the record)? Having 12 losses by one run is tough and one guy could be a factor in those losses or he could have had nothing to do with it.

You never know when a kid finally gets it. I've had kids who couldn't hit water the first three years and then come in that last year and rake. I've had kids who on paper and in reality had nothing what seemed to be anything to offer and they just get it done. Two years ago we had a Senior in the OF who was one of our slowest guys, not a great hitter and had an average arm. He made every play in the OF and had a horrible average but he had countless clutch hits. Big time situation he came through. He was MVP of a tournament based on his clutch hits and he only had 3 hits in 15 at bats for the whole tournament.

I don't want to open a Pandora's box here but politics exist at every level of baseball including college and pros imho. I would never let my son hang his hat on that circumstance but sometimes things are out of your control - regardless of talent. Sure the coach wants to win but sometimes he wants to achieve it with "his" guys.

Josh McDaniels wanted to win for the Denver Broncos but "his" guys simply let him down. I wonder if Tim Teebow is still the same prospect today as he was yesterday before McDaniels was fired.

quote:

Originally posted by 2bagger:

If the coach takes 20-22 games to figure it out they will be almost halfway through the season. You would think they would have a better idea going into the season.

Yes I am sure one has a good idea going into the season but that doesn't mean it's gonna stay that way, for sure.
As far as figuring it out I meant the line up, the infield, outfield positions and sometimes starters.
There is a certain chemistry that takes place in the field as well as the clubhouse.

I agree tpm that the line up won't stay the way it starts very often. But before the first game I would expect a coach to have a pretty good idea who is playing the infield outfield and starters and how the line-up looks.

If someone struggles there would be some movement, injuries many things can change the line up and who starts along the way.

If it takes a coach at that level 20 or so games to figure it out I would think he would be looking for new employement, but that does not seem to always be the case in college baseball.

Sit back and let it play out. Do not convey these type of thoughts to your son. Allow him to stay positive and continue to work as hard as he can and let the cards fall where they fall. There are many things at play here in this situation. There always are. The thing is the coach has to believe in the player. Some guys have to prove they can't play and some guys have to prove they can. And sometimes you will never see or know whats really going on. Thats just the way it is.

The coach likes this kid. He believes in this kid. And he is going to give him every opportunity to succeed. Thats the coaches decision and its out of your hands. Now what can your son do? Just focus on working hard and getting better. Do the best he can do everytime he gets a chance. Keep a good attitude and not get caught up in this stuff.

It will play out and then he will know what he needs to do. Do not cloud the situation for him by interjecting anything into this. Let him work through it and allow him to grow from this. Its going to be ok. Dont focus on the other players. Dont look for reasons why this kid shouldnt be doing this and this player shouldnt be doing that. It will simply drive you crazy and take all the fun out of it for you. Allow your son to focus on what he needs to do and not worry about what someone else is doing or not doing.

Your son's time will come and he needs to be focused on doing what he needs to be doing to be ready for those opportunities. Thats all that really matters. Good luck

quote:

Originally posted by igball:
My guess is the son is the underlying topic of the question.

Regarding second guessing coaches, at any level it is one of the great things about baseball. Because there are so many games in a season and its pace is so slow that strategy plays a part in its outcome, questioning a coach's decision is a valid part of the game. However that natural inclination becomes anything but objective when it involves your son's playing time at the collegiate level.

I think when it comes to voicing "objective" criticism of college coaches and your son's lack of playing time, parents would be best suited to follow Archer Bunker's advice to Edith and "just stifle it."

I actually preferred Barney Fife's "NIP IT IN THE BUD".

quote:

Originally posted by 2bagger:
If it takes a coach at that level 20 or so games to figure it out I would think he would be looking for new employement, but that does not seem to always be the case in college baseball.

Clemson HC states it can take him up to 20-22 games until it all falls into place for him. For teams that play conference championships and go far into the post season, you could be playing close to 70 games.

I didn't say he had no clue of who might start where at first, I was just trying to say that it takes time before it all falls into place.

I agree with Coach May's post and we don't know all of the facts about this senior player and why the coach wants him in the lineup.

quote:

Originally posted by 2bagger:
I agree tpm that the line up won't stay the way it starts very often. But before the first game I would expect a coach to have a pretty good idea who is playing the infield outfield and starters and how the line-up looks.

If someone struggles there would be some movement, injuries many things can change the line up and who starts along the way.

If it takes a coach at that level 20 or so games to figure it out I would think he would be looking for new employement, but that does not seem to always be the case in college baseball.

I think the coach at the school TPM's son went to can get away with the 20 some games because they typically go very deep in the playoffs. By doing this on a consistent basis that school is going to play upwards of 70 games. That still gives them about two thirds....ish of the season left.

Now if it's a school that finishes around .500 then 20 games could get them in trouble.

Plus a coach may think after 10 - 15 games he's got the lineup set but it might take another 5 - 10 games to really make up his mind.

I think it's feasible to say it takes around 20 games to figure out the lineup.

There is no way a parent can do it. There is simply no way. Parents are going to advocate for their kids. They are going to be biased towards their kids. There are parents that are more objective. There are parents that can hide their true feelings better than others but they are all still parents. Its not the feelings that need to be stifled or nipped in the bud. Those feelings quite honestly are going to be there. Its more about the way those feelings are conveyed to those that matter and the forum in which they are conveyed.

Give your kid advice that will help him in a situation like this. Do not vent your parental feelings upon him. Tell him to keep working hard and to stay positive. Tell him to focus on the big picture of getting better every day and helping the team be the best team it can be. Tell him to focus on what he can do to be a better player every day and not worry about the things he can not control. And tell him to enjoy and embrace the process of getting better everyday.

Tell your wife you think it s*cks your kid is getting the short end of the stick in the privacy of your home, car etc. Cry on her shoulder if you have to. But leave it there. No one at the ball game wants to hear it. No one else needs to hear it. Then once you got it off your chest take the same advice you gave your kid. Stay positve. Support the team. Pull for all the players on your sons teams because they are your sons team mates. Just like you would and will want them to pull for your son when he gets his chance. Enjoy the process. Focus on the good and all you have to be thankful for. And be proud of the fact your son is doing something so many quite simply are not good enough to do, man enough to do, tough enough to do and disciplined enough to do.

Situations like this make those with character and love for the game better. Situations like this expose those that dont have it. Show the coach which one of those people you are Mr Baseball player. Show your son which one of those people you are Mr Baseball Dad.

My whole point was that these things take time, the line up the first game is not going to be the line up the last.
Do as CM suggests, keep your comments to yourself. And that should be on every level your son plays at. Let it play out, the coach/manager may have his reasons, even if we and others don't always agree.

quote:

have read the many post about freshman having to earn their starting spots over upper classmen but real scenario: why would a head baseball coach at a D1 college opt to start a senior OF who started as a freshman and batted .260 then as soph .218 and last year as JR .210 knowing he has a handful of younger players who can hit???

One aspect we've just touched on but you aren't talking about is the first consideration I mentioned; DEFENSE. If the Senior outfielder you are talking about is a defensive "sponge" out there in Center, or the corner, then that certainly is a hugh consideration in College. Especially so, as pitching and defense will be more valued as Coaches brace for reduced offense with the BBCOR bats.

A coach will settle for less offense from his "up the middle" guys in favor of consistent superior "D."

Coach May you are so right. Letting your kid know that you feel they are getting screwed does not do them any favors.

Last year we had a freshman parent just cry, complain, moan and carry on about how thier kid was getting screwed. They went on and on about how the player who was on the field playing did not deserve to be there, was not good enough to be there and for sure that player had something "on" the coach. Blah, blah, blah.

As the season went on fewer and fewer parents were willing to sit near these cancerous parents. Their anger got them solo seats farther and farther down the right field line. NOBODY WANTS TO BE AROUND THAT STUFF. COLLEGE BALL IS HARD ENOUGH FOR A PLAYER WITHOUT THEIR PARENTS MAKING THINGS MORE DIFFICUT.

My opinion. The freshman was far better offensively but had an entitled attitude combined with bricks for hands. The one playing fielded the routine ball routinely and did a couple of "wow" plays while offensively he struggled in the low .200s... with great attitude the whole time.

Different coaches value different things. It appears ours valued clean defense and a good attitude.

Who cares if this guy has a horse in the race or not--given the info he has presented he has made a solid case as to why he feels any of the other players who have performed better in the fall are not being given the nod to start over the returning player who has gone downhill over last 2 seasons offensively to where a .210 BA at any level (D1 especially) maybe should not be a guaranteed starting spot?

Based on OP seems to me the one who should have been told he has no guarantee of starting is the one starting.

quote:

--given the info he has presented he has made a solid case as to why he feels any of the other players who have performed better in the fall are not being given the nod to start over the returning player who has gone downhill over last 2 seasons

Would your reply be different if you knew the kid played with an injury last season because the coach said he needed him to play every game?


I am not saying that happened, but how do you know it didn't? Maybe there was something else going on nobody but the coach knows about....

quote:

Originally posted by CollegeParentNoMore:

quote:

--given the info he has presented he has made a solid case as to why he feels any of the other players who have performed better in the fall are not being given the nod to start over the returning player who has gone downhill over last 2 seasons

Would your reply be different if you knew the kid played with an injury last season because the coach said he needed him to play every game?


I am not saying that happened, but how do you know it didn't? Maybe there was something else going on nobody but the coach knows about....

Or what's his on base percentage, walks, steals, what position does he play, is he a team leader, etc.?

Does batting average tell the whole story about the player? No.

The true test is come spring, you'd be surprised how many frosh do well in fall practice then the wheel falls off the wagon for awhile come spring.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by CollegeParentNoMore:

quote:

--given the info he has presented he has made a solid case as to why he feels any of the other players who have performed better in the fall are not being given the nod to start over the returning player who has gone downhill over last 2 seasons

Would your reply be different if you knew the kid played with an injury last season because the coach said he needed him to play every game?


I am not saying that happened, but how do you know it didn't? Maybe there was something else going on nobody but the coach knows about....

Or what's his on base percentage, walks, steals, what position does he play, is he a team leader, etc.?

Does batting average tell the whole story about the player? No.

The true test is come spring, you'd be surprised how many frosh do well in fall practice then the wheel falls off the wagon for awhile come spring.

My reply indeed would be different if a guy was injured in a given year because that would explain a drop-off in performance. Wouldn't expect the guy to be injured 3 years as the stats posted here by the OP are poor over an extended time frame.

A college coach can find hundreds of guys who hit near the Mendoza line yet provide all these other intangible benefits. They are all looking for the one guy who hits well above that imho. Thus, my argument would be that batting average ought to be very important. I agree that defense can win out sometimes if it is at a premier defensive position like catcher or shortstop. I would ask for people to check the offensive stats of the national champion Gamecocks at shortstop and second base. I know for a fact I saw each one of those kids win at least one game for their team with a defensive play. It reminded me of Oregon State a few years ago with Darwin Barney and Joey Wong.

With all due respect, this thread I think should be renamed "my kid deserves more playing time, here's why and don't you agree?"

Putting aside the inappropriateness of it, isn't any one else concerned about bandwidth considerations. Once the correctly named thread gets out there there will be no stopping it. If you think Wikileaks is never ending this thread will crash every server on the planet.

Time out!

I thought this would make for an interesting topic simply for the fact I read the many sincere comforting words toward the parent whose son was also a senior and yet was cut from his team.

That post coupled with other recent posts about starting spots rightfully going to upper classmen IMO showed an interesting contrast in responses.

For obvious sensitivity reasons toward that parent nobody I recall even questioned the parent whose senior son was cut as to his productivity over his college career. If it is possible (and I don't know) but "if" his offensive numbers similarly dropped drastically and the coaches saw a better chance to win with younger players then I would use that as similar reason why I feel the coach I spoke of should give the younger players I spoke of their chance to step in and prove themselves worthy of a starting position.

This now senior "started and played as a freshman" where he got his chance to play over upper classmen.

Questions about his OBP and misc other offensive unknown stats as if to somehow justify he deserves to start where he has had over 100 AB's every season yet teeters on the mendoza line, seem like real stretches to me. This is a team that has had years of losing records,(so defense ain't winning games either) has laid claim to being last in offense in their conference and leading in total K's. If ever the axiom "if you can hit you will play" fits it would be with such a team.
Yes or no?

Look, how much worse could they be by giving any one of the other hitters their chance to start and help the team get off to a more positive start? IMO the coaches did not recruit any one of these younger players believing they could not hit better than .210 as freshman...so why not start one of them!

Usually when one can rattle off someone else's batting average all three years, there's usually a level of obsession with a specific player who happens to be in direct competition with the son.

With that being said, the coach simply could have saw something he liked with that player and/or could be he don't trust or think those younger players give the team the best chance to win and trusts the senior. Since the parents aren't with the team during practices and workouts, they don't know what's going on behind the scenes that make coaches decide to play who they play.

Gee, or maybe they could easily look up BA and all stats over last 5 years on team website.

Any posters out there who still follow their college sports teams as an alumni?

How about there are 10 non-starters and under classmen (is that enough for you) who could all bat higher than .210 in over 100 AB's!

All of whom heard the same "you can hit you will play." from their coaches from LL on up.