quote:Any posters out there who still follow their college sports teams as an alumni?
Not as close you do apparantly.
Not as close you do apparantly.
Not as close you do apparantly.
If you feel that strongly about it just give the coach a call and tell him straight up what you said in your last post. Let us know what he says.
You are right jimmy you reply ina best way any one can give...
Online Diploma
quote:Originally posted by igball:
Jiminy
My point really wasn't about who compiled the stats but rather the bias of those who evaluate them. That being said since you're new I probably should have backed off and if you really don't have a horse in the outfield race (?) then you have my apologies too.
Online Diploma
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Welcome aboard the HSBBW sfweb.
Is this HS up north on Pulaski?
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Welcome aboard the HSBBW sfweb.
Is this HS up north on Pulaski?
.
Who is to say the senior is still the starter. When the players come back from Christmas break, there is still about a month and a half until DI starts its season. A lot could happen in that time.
Jiminy - I am honestly curious, are you looking for advice (title of the thread is "Great site for advice") or are you looking for people to agree with you and reaffirm your frustration?
I ask this not to annoy you but to understand where you are coming from. To me advice indicates you are looking for objective input, however, based upon your replies I am not sure if that is what you are looking for.
I ask this not to annoy you but to understand where you are coming from. To me advice indicates you are looking for objective input, however, based upon your replies I am not sure if that is what you are looking for.
quote:Originally posted by zombywoof:
Usually when one can rattle off someone else's batting average all three years, there's usually a level of obsession with a specific player who happens to be in direct competition with the son.
With that being said, the coach simply could have saw something he liked with that player and/or could be he don't trust or think those younger players give the team the best chance to win and trusts the senior. Since the parents aren't with the team during practices and workouts, they don't know what's going on behind the scenes that make coaches decide to play who they play.
Zomby, with all due respect when your son was being recruited didn't you bother to look up as much info as you could on the team and the positions your son was tryig for? That is what it sounds like jiminy did, that is what I would expect anyone to do when you are loking at the school.
Folks, despite the occasional sniping and rubs, this has been an informative thread for me, the father of an 8 yr old. There has been some good advice and perhaps even a bit of wisdom in some replies. Thanks.
quote:Originally posted by cheapseats:
Jiminy - I am honestly curious, are you looking for advice (title of the thread is "Great site for advice") or are you looking for people to agree with you and reaffirm your frustration?
I ask this not to annoy you but to understand where you are coming from. To me advice indicates you are looking for objective input, however, based upon your replies I am not sure if that is what you are looking for.
Well to be honest CS I'd say Jiminy's replies are directed to those who chose to abuse rather than advise. He spelled out pretty nicely that his thoughts for the OP was based on all the outpouring of support for iheartbb and his senior son cut from the team in contrast to all the "expert" advice saying seniors earned their spots by riding the bench, etc.
Sure looks to me like he appreciated the posts having to do with advice or sharing past experience with coaching issues. He just (rightfully so) took offense to this
quote:With all due respect, this thread I think should be renamed "my kid deserves more playing time, here's why and don't you agree?"
There is a middle ground here we're missing out on. Yes it is perplexing why someone who is not hitting stays in the lineup. Yes it's perplexing why a senior is cut when he's performed well in the past. Nobody here knows why this kid stays in the lineup. Nobody here knows why iheartbb's son was cut (at least from what I've read). Myself - I don't understand either one and appalled by the son being cut.
But like Coach May said - if you want the whole truth go to the horse's mouth.......or the other end if the coach is a jerk.
Jiminy it seems your first real taste of our site might not be that favorable but don't let that keep you from coming back. This site is made up of people from all over the world and every race, *** and economic standing - not a chance of a snowball in a microwave of us agreeing on anything unanimously. Plus in the winter we all get a little testy and some threads get a little out of hand. Wait until someone posts something about religion. When that happens make sure to duck because the stuffing will hit the fan.
Nobody here can accurately answer your question. If it's your son, friend, family member, just curious or even you - it is what it is. Maybe someone can change it through hard work and results in practice or maybe they won't. We just don't know.
But like Coach May said - if you want the whole truth go to the horse's mouth.......or the other end if the coach is a jerk.
Jiminy it seems your first real taste of our site might not be that favorable but don't let that keep you from coming back. This site is made up of people from all over the world and every race, *** and economic standing - not a chance of a snowball in a microwave of us agreeing on anything unanimously. Plus in the winter we all get a little testy and some threads get a little out of hand. Wait until someone posts something about religion. When that happens make sure to duck because the stuffing will hit the fan.
Nobody here can accurately answer your question. If it's your son, friend, family member, just curious or even you - it is what it is. Maybe someone can change it through hard work and results in practice or maybe they won't. We just don't know.
There are two parallel universes going on with this thread I think. The first assumes the OP was looking for honest feedback from a "great site for advice" about playing time disparities for a couple of random out fielders on some random team he follows. He recieved some genuine and honest feedback from his request that included the value of seniority; different numbers for consideration besides the ones he mentioned; the importance of defense in the equation and other subjective factors. Much of that feedback it seems was discounted.
The other universe, which I am clearly in, thinks a bit differently about the OP. I think we have a situation where we have "one of those dads" lurking (and for the record I apologized to the OP if this is not the case but haven't heard otherwise). "OOTD's", as we all know, start their activity when our kids are first getting started in baseball. They are always ready willing and able to tell anyone within ear shot that their kid should be playing whatever (pick a position, usually ss or pitching), batting whatever (pick a spot usually 3rd or 4th) and have all the numbers- both positive for their kid and negative for the poor soul in their way- to back it up.
As our kids develop and join new travel and high school teams, OOTD's also improve and enhance their skills. Constant emails and threats of talking with athletic dept heads, etc become the new weapons of choice to get their never ending message across.
Dad's are as basic a life form that has ever existed on his planet. From prehistoric days to today, our species falls into one of three distinct groups: Not one of those dads; One of those dads; and (my personal favorite) recovering one of those dads. For those few who fall into the first group, my congratulations to you (Coach May comes to mind). For the rest of us knuckle dragging sub-humans, it would be nice if we could help encourage our brethren to begin the move from category two into category three. The earlier this move can be made, the better off the baseball world (not to mention OOTD's sons) would be, in my mind. And finally, when a dad finds his son has made it to the collegiate level (congrats), but you still find yourself in category two, maybe its time for someone to say its clearly inappropriate to question in public the coach's decision on playing time. As Coach May correctly said, that stuff is best left to the dinner table, bar stool, therapist' couch or (if you are a man of a certain age and persuasion) confessional.
Again, the OP has my sincerest apologies if the universe I seem to find myself in on this is not the right one.
The other universe, which I am clearly in, thinks a bit differently about the OP. I think we have a situation where we have "one of those dads" lurking (and for the record I apologized to the OP if this is not the case but haven't heard otherwise). "OOTD's", as we all know, start their activity when our kids are first getting started in baseball. They are always ready willing and able to tell anyone within ear shot that their kid should be playing whatever (pick a position, usually ss or pitching), batting whatever (pick a spot usually 3rd or 4th) and have all the numbers- both positive for their kid and negative for the poor soul in their way- to back it up.
As our kids develop and join new travel and high school teams, OOTD's also improve and enhance their skills. Constant emails and threats of talking with athletic dept heads, etc become the new weapons of choice to get their never ending message across.
Dad's are as basic a life form that has ever existed on his planet. From prehistoric days to today, our species falls into one of three distinct groups: Not one of those dads; One of those dads; and (my personal favorite) recovering one of those dads. For those few who fall into the first group, my congratulations to you (Coach May comes to mind). For the rest of us knuckle dragging sub-humans, it would be nice if we could help encourage our brethren to begin the move from category two into category three. The earlier this move can be made, the better off the baseball world (not to mention OOTD's sons) would be, in my mind. And finally, when a dad finds his son has made it to the collegiate level (congrats), but you still find yourself in category two, maybe its time for someone to say its clearly inappropriate to question in public the coach's decision on playing time. As Coach May correctly said, that stuff is best left to the dinner table, bar stool, therapist' couch or (if you are a man of a certain age and persuasion) confessional.
Again, the OP has my sincerest apologies if the universe I seem to find myself in on this is not the right one.
Well I for one think you are reading this wrong igball, but hey everyone has their opinion.
quote:Originally posted by jiminy:
Gee, or maybe they could easily look up BA and all stats over last 5 years on team website.
Any posters out there who still follow their college sports teams as an alumni?
How about there are 10 non-starters and under classmen (is that enough for you) who could all bat higher than .210 in over 100 AB's!
All of whom heard the same "you can hit you will play." from their coaches from LL on up.
I relate things thru my own experience
While my kid didn't play college, I wondered why in his jr yr in HS he made varsity but played most of his games on JV and killing pitching down there wondering why he wasn't playing varsity games and only getting in as an occasional PH or PR and knew he could hit up there and had one of the strongest OF arms in the program. There were 10 seniors on the varsity, plus the team was OF heavy which might explain some of that but he had to pay his dues and when he got his shot to start, he took advantage of it and held on to his starting spot.
Sometimes it makes no sense. I saw how frustrated my son was but the reason he never complained was because he always played on the sub-varsity level and knew many other players were buried further down the line than him looking to coompete for a spot but at the same time, he never dwelled on that and instead kept working and being ready when he'd get his shot at varsity. For him, he broke thru but he had to make the most of his opportunities when he got them. He turned into one of the top run producers on the team and was good in clutch situations.
As a parent, you just keep quiet and let them figure it out for themselves. My son told me if he had any issues or questions about playing time, he was to talk to the HC about it so he knew what he had to do.
I would assume the same applies for college. It's up to the player to deal with these issues.
quote:Originally posted by 2bagger:
Zomby, with all due respect when your son was being recruited didn't you bother to look up as much info as you could on the team and the positions your son was tryig for? That is what it sounds like jiminy did, that is what I would expect anyone to do when you are loking at the school.
A fair point. Perhaps if he was serious about playing college ball, I would've done my homework gotten as much info as possible and definitely would've checked into the program and all. The only thing is that justifying a player's stats over a number of years don't necessarily justify one plays and the other sits.
Logic would say there's more to it than less than eye-popping stats over three years. There has to be more to it than that. I think even with all the information, you can't always foresee what'll happen or what should happen 2 or 3 yrs down the road. Or why In the end, it'll definitely be up to the player to deal with the things he can control and any issues with the coaching staff
quote:why would a head baseball coach at a D1 college opt to start a senior OF who started as a freshman and batted .260 then as soph .218 and last year as JR .210 knowing he has a handful of younger players who can hit???
None of us can post comments specific to your situation since we have very, very limited information.
Your question does seem somewhat contradictory, to me, in that you ask, in effect, why would a college coach knowingly play an inferior player since you note the coach "knows" that "he has a handful of younger players who can hit."
Does the Coach really know that? If he does, that would be relevant information to share in seeking your answers, I would think.
To me, with very limited information from your comments, your answers won't be found here. Where they will/should be found is by knowing what is not in the posted stats.
Your answers will come from learning what is happening every day on the field, in team meetings, at strength and conditioning sessions and in the classroom.
Based strictly on what you have posted, one option is to conclude this coach has chosen to play an "inferior" player.
Another option is to conclude the coach does not see him as inferior based on everything else that occurs that isn't put on a stats page; the aspects of a college baseball team that fans don't see on game day.
Certainly, injury could be one factor for the player.
Issues in the classroom for other players might be an issue...somewhat common and coaches need to plan around it while never talking about it.
Motivating the other players might be an issue or goal...a big issue and not just on the field.
Leadership might be a factor.
A coach projecting what that player can do vs what he is doing might be an aspect of this.
It also could be some combination of these items.
Whatever it is, it likely is based on what happens when we as outsiders cannot see what is happening, like in practice and all the time the student/athlete is involved with the program for about 9-10 months, which the coaches can see and judge and we as fans cannot.
quote:igball....Dad's are as basic a life form that has ever existed on his planet. From prehistoric days to today, our species falls into one of three distinct groups: Not one of those dads; One of those dads; and (my personal favorite) recovering one of those dads. For those few who fall into the first group, my congratulations to you (Coach May please stand up and take a bow). For the rest of us knuckle dragging sub-humans, it would be nice if we could help encourage our brethren to begin the move from category two into category three.
Too funny! I love it. So that is why my hands are all scraped up. Ok, I'll admit that I'm trying to be a ROTDs everyday, but it is a difficult battle. ;-)
Fun, ain't it?
Not many OOTD's SONS make it to college ball.
Of those that do, most of their SONS don't make it past the freshman year.
Which is one of the great things about college baseball.
Experience is the key element here.
Your freshman high school player did not have the same experience that the junior or senior had, even though his BA was better than all the varsity players.
Your freshman college player college player does not have the same experience that the junior or senior has, even though your son's BA is better than every junior and senior on the squad.
And, as a dad, if you didn't learn that varsity PT is about more than BA, you won't figure it out in college.
You won't get the chance, or be around long enough to figure it out.
A freshman college player with expectations of significant playing time in the first year is in for a significant freshman year adjustment.
Here's some advice.
It takes time to earn the spot during the season.
It's a game to game decision.
The fall allows the coaches to learn what a player's skills and potential are. And, in what circumstances they might fit into the lineup.
The lineup firms up as conference play approaches, but the final lineup is made every GAME.
The lineup can be based on field location, field size, weather, wind speed, playing surface, opposing team's pitching, opposing team's style of play.
In many instances, I've seen clutch play, outweigh BA.
The juniors and seniors face many other obstacles to stay in the lineup.
Here's a few.
Staying eligible.
Staying sober.
Girlfriend.
Fatherhood.
Peeing into the cup.
Staying out of fights.
Curfew.
So, a freshman with the high BA, who is a clutch hitter, keeps his grades up, stays sober, minimizes female contact, pees into the cup when asked, wins any fights he is involved, and has an adequate cover for curfew violations, has a chance to make the lineup in the spring on a game to game basis, if one of the starters does not stay eligible, gets drunk, knocks his GF up, can not pee into a cup, loses a fight, or has a curfew alibi failure.
Read that last sentence very slowly.
Fun, ain't it?
Not many OOTD's SONS make it to college ball.
Of those that do, most of their SONS don't make it past the freshman year.
Which is one of the great things about college baseball.
Experience is the key element here.
Your freshman high school player did not have the same experience that the junior or senior had, even though his BA was better than all the varsity players.
Your freshman college player college player does not have the same experience that the junior or senior has, even though your son's BA is better than every junior and senior on the squad.
And, as a dad, if you didn't learn that varsity PT is about more than BA, you won't figure it out in college.
You won't get the chance, or be around long enough to figure it out.
A freshman college player with expectations of significant playing time in the first year is in for a significant freshman year adjustment.
Here's some advice.
It takes time to earn the spot during the season.
It's a game to game decision.
The fall allows the coaches to learn what a player's skills and potential are. And, in what circumstances they might fit into the lineup.
The lineup firms up as conference play approaches, but the final lineup is made every GAME.
The lineup can be based on field location, field size, weather, wind speed, playing surface, opposing team's pitching, opposing team's style of play.
In many instances, I've seen clutch play, outweigh BA.
The juniors and seniors face many other obstacles to stay in the lineup.
Here's a few.
Staying eligible.
Staying sober.
Girlfriend.
Fatherhood.
Peeing into the cup.
Staying out of fights.
Curfew.
So, a freshman with the high BA, who is a clutch hitter, keeps his grades up, stays sober, minimizes female contact, pees into the cup when asked, wins any fights he is involved, and has an adequate cover for curfew violations, has a chance to make the lineup in the spring on a game to game basis, if one of the starters does not stay eligible, gets drunk, knocks his GF up, can not pee into a cup, loses a fight, or has a curfew alibi failure.
Read that last sentence very slowly.
Fun, ain't it?
I have read in some of the comments about the experience of the upperclassman. So what are you talking about specificaly? Hitting behind runners, getting bunts down, knowing when to steal a base, throwing to the correct base or cut, hitting in counts ect. Don't you think a freshman that has played years of travel ball at high levels has the experience? probably 3 or 4 years of high school varsity ball has the experience.
we are not talking about building a rocket or doing brain surgery it is baseball.
Just curious about the experience that some think might be missing in a freshman player.
we are not talking about building a rocket or doing brain surgery it is baseball.
Just curious about the experience that some think might be missing in a freshman player.
quote:Don't you think a freshman that has played years of travel ball at high levels has the experience?
No.
quote:3 or 4 years of high school varsity ball has the experience.
No.
And, you sound like OOTD's.
Read the post above yours.
I did read it former observer and I understand some of your points regarding the maturity but I was talking baseball specific. I guess we will have to disagree with you views about not having enough experience as fresh as I have seen many that start freshman year and do fine.
Oh and there experience was travel and high school ball.
Just a thought but you don't know me at all but nice job trying out the name calling with the ootd comment.
Oh and there experience was travel and high school ball.
Just a thought but you don't know me at all but nice job trying out the name calling with the ootd comment.
quote:I guess we will have to disagree with you views about not having enough experience as fresh as I have seen many that start freshman year and do fine.
Has your son played college ball?
quote:And, you sound like OOTD's.
Are you?
yes along with many others I have worked with. Any other questions? Some in pro ball is that okay with you can I state my opinion on this board now?
can the person that started this section ask a simple question or do we have to clear it with you and igball????
can the person that started this section ask a simple question or do we have to clear it with you and igball????
Yes, I would like to know where your son played.
And, I would like to know some of the pro players that you have worked with.
The person that started this section did ask a question without having to clear it with me.
These questions do not have to be cleared with me, or anyone else that I am aware of.
And, I would like to know some of the pro players that you have worked with.
The person that started this section did ask a question without having to clear it with me.
These questions do not have to be cleared with me, or anyone else that I am aware of.
After reading this thread I am leaning with igball and FO on this one. A parent who knows/researches the 3 year stats of a senior is a little too involved. IMO if you do this kind of background check on your son's competition you could be OOTDs.
What the OP states might be true but who cares. If his son, or not son, is good enough it will all work out. Let the kid deal with the situation and maybe become stronger from it. Nothing you say or do will change the situation or make it better. In most cases players usually get what they earn and deserve.
What the OP states might be true but who cares. If his son, or not son, is good enough it will all work out. Let the kid deal with the situation and maybe become stronger from it. Nothing you say or do will change the situation or make it better. In most cases players usually get what they earn and deserve.
I would be more than happy to discuss anything about my son or any other player privately.
But after reading your posts your opinion does not mean all that much to me.
I'll say it again have seen many players play well as freahman if you have a problem with that maybe you should start looking at some of the box score around the country.
By the way would like to know your position in the baseball world before I would mention any kids name on this site, pm or not.
But after reading your posts your opinion does not mean all that much to me.
I'll say it again have seen many players play well as freahman if you have a problem with that maybe you should start looking at some of the box score around the country.
By the way would like to know your position in the baseball world before I would mention any kids name on this site, pm or not.
2bagger,
There are freshman players that get to play and play very well.
But, there are not 'many'.
The vast majority of freshman players do not play a significant amount.
The opening post was a legitimate question from a parent without experience in a collegiate program.
But, one would think a parent with a son, that has high school varsity experience, would know that factors other than BA impact a coaches decision about rosters and lineups.
My son is Matthew Smith, who played three years at Texas Tech University, from 2005 through 2007.
He was drafted by the Oakland Athletics in the 14th round of the 2007 MLB draft.
He played the 2007 short season at Kane County, IL.
He played in the 2008 season at Stockton, CA and Kane County, IL until undergoing labrum surgery and missing the balance of the 2008 season.
He played the 2009 season at Stockton, CA and voluntarily retired in January of 2010.
I wouldn't consider myself to be an expert in the baseball world at all.
But, I do know, from my own observations, that the vast majority of freshman do not play.
And, I know that those roster decisions and lineups are based on far more than BA.
And, I know that the inexperienced players have to work their way into the lineup, and, only stay in the lineup when they perform consistently.
There are freshman players that get to play and play very well.
But, there are not 'many'.
The vast majority of freshman players do not play a significant amount.
The opening post was a legitimate question from a parent without experience in a collegiate program.
But, one would think a parent with a son, that has high school varsity experience, would know that factors other than BA impact a coaches decision about rosters and lineups.
My son is Matthew Smith, who played three years at Texas Tech University, from 2005 through 2007.
He was drafted by the Oakland Athletics in the 14th round of the 2007 MLB draft.
He played the 2007 short season at Kane County, IL.
He played in the 2008 season at Stockton, CA and Kane County, IL until undergoing labrum surgery and missing the balance of the 2008 season.
He played the 2009 season at Stockton, CA and voluntarily retired in January of 2010.
I wouldn't consider myself to be an expert in the baseball world at all.
But, I do know, from my own observations, that the vast majority of freshman do not play.
And, I know that those roster decisions and lineups are based on far more than BA.
And, I know that the inexperienced players have to work their way into the lineup, and, only stay in the lineup when they perform consistently.
Sorry your son had an injury and had to retire.
As far as the parent that started the post he did mention that one of the outfielders in front ws nothing special on the defensive side.
We can't assume that because his son has hs varsity experience the dad knows anything about college. Maybe we should give him the benefit of the doubt and give advice suggestions it just seemd like a few here wanted to jump on him early. Time will be a great teacher and hopefully his son gets a chance to prove himself.
Lets not run people off that are new to the site and might have a question that we can help with. Might not be what they always want to hear but too many here start accusing right off the bat.
Hopefully your son is now doing well and is off and running on a new career.
As far as the parent that started the post he did mention that one of the outfielders in front ws nothing special on the defensive side.
We can't assume that because his son has hs varsity experience the dad knows anything about college. Maybe we should give him the benefit of the doubt and give advice suggestions it just seemd like a few here wanted to jump on him early. Time will be a great teacher and hopefully his son gets a chance to prove himself.
Lets not run people off that are new to the site and might have a question that we can help with. Might not be what they always want to hear but too many here start accusing right off the bat.
Hopefully your son is now doing well and is off and running on a new career.
quote:Originally posted by igball:
If there is anyone less self-aware than a baseball dad slamming a college coach because his (freshman/soph?) son isn't getting the playing time he wants him to get, I don't know who it would be.
This kind of comment is usually made in the high school threads and thank goodness most of us dads have learned to take the blinders off by the time our kids have graduated from hs and moved on.
While I agree with you about parents speaking about their own kids not playing, knowledgeable parents with no axe to grind see these things as well.
For instance a kid who can hit the ball a mile when he connects has been a coaches pet at a local HS. Trouble is he has about a 160 batting average, and cannot play any position well defensively.
When he comes up to bat everyone knows he has huge holes in his swing, and expects a strikeout, yet the coach starts him every game over other kids who can at least get on base.
Now it is good from my standpoint because we face this team twice a year, but parents who are my friends that have sons on this team are being driven nuts.
If it was the coaches kid, everyone would understand even if they didn't like it. But in this instance no one has a clue. I originally speculated that he was a work in progress and the coach saw something in him he could develop. However he is a senior this year, and unless he has made dramatic changes to his swing from last year, it will be a three year experiment that did not bear any fruit.
So the point is some coaches do make strange choices and parents without a horse in the race cannot understand why.
Here's the original question, and, I think this thread has provided many good responses to this question.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jiminy:
why would a head baseball coach at a D1 college opt to start a senior OF who started as a freshman and batted .260 then as soph .218 and last year as JR .210 knowing he has a handful of younger players who can hit???
But, here's another thought.
Part of the reason that a good young hitter has hitting success in high school or college is that there are junior and senior's hitting in the 3 and 4 hole. The junior's and senior's hit there because they have the experience to complete in that position
The inexperienced hitters usually hit in the 5 or 9 hole and are not pitched to in the same way the 3 or 4 hole is.
So, it is not unusual for an upperclassmen's BA to go down in comparison to their freshman and sophomore numbers.
So, comparing a freshman fall BA to a junior or senior season BA is not a good comparison.
It is difficult for OOTD's to see that.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jiminy:
why would a head baseball coach at a D1 college opt to start a senior OF who started as a freshman and batted .260 then as soph .218 and last year as JR .210 knowing he has a handful of younger players who can hit???
But, here's another thought.
Part of the reason that a good young hitter has hitting success in high school or college is that there are junior and senior's hitting in the 3 and 4 hole. The junior's and senior's hit there because they have the experience to complete in that position
The inexperienced hitters usually hit in the 5 or 9 hole and are not pitched to in the same way the 3 or 4 hole is.
So, it is not unusual for an upperclassmen's BA to go down in comparison to their freshman and sophomore numbers.
So, comparing a freshman fall BA to a junior or senior season BA is not a good comparison.
It is difficult for OOTD's to see that.
Another addition to FormerObserver's point is that many freshmen play in the blowouts against a teams lower level pitchers and get to fatten their numbers while the Junior and Senior guys who are in the starting lineup have to face the aces over and over and the opponents that can really pitch.
quote:a kid who can hit the ball a mile when he connects
And, will hit DH, for a coach who plays to win instead of trying not to lose.
"You are going to strike out some, but we want you to hit it out."
'I'm hitting line drives."
"We want you to hit it out. Homeruns win ballgames."
When the talent level is there on a team, you can play that way.
Which reminds me of a story about playing to win.
That I am reluctant to repeat since I just reexposed myself, but it's about trying to win.
In a 12 or 13 year old championship league game, my son came up to bat in the four hole with the bases loaded against their #1 pitcher, down 4, and last out of the game.
On a 3-2 pitch, my son's former MLB player coach at third base, called time out, and walked about halfway down the line, and, quickly whispered something in my son's ear, then headed back to the 3rd base coaching box.
My son hit a long fly ball that was caught about a foot from the fence at the RF foul post.
After the game, I asked my son what the coach had said.
Dad, he said, "Hit it out."
Attempting to decipher a coaches line-up card, Donald Rumsfeld's famous line on intelligence gathering comes in handy:
There are things you know you know.."known knows"
Things you know you don't know.."known unknows"
But there are also things that you simply just don't know anything about- the famous "un-known unknows"
There are things you know you know.."known knows"
Things you know you don't know.."known unknows"
But there are also things that you simply just don't know anything about- the famous "un-known unknows"
Sometimes this trust,which takes time for a coach to develope in young players just isn't there at first. You see this all the time in the Major Leagues, where a team has young players or rookies that you just know could do better than the incumbent .250 hitter, but the manager stays with the veteran. A good example is the Coby Rasmus situation in St, Louis with Tony LaRussa. Many fans feel Rasmus is the third best player on the Cardinals team but he often is not in the lineup. Often a manager will only put a young player in situations where he feels he has a great chance of success including certain matchups, or conditions. We don't always know the reasoning but it includes a lot deeper digging than batting average or which guy is faster. I know from coaching that you have to be there everyday to see what takes place at practices, what the freshman's level of understanding to what is trying to be accomplished. Each progressive level of baseball requires deeper understanding of the mental aspect of the game and most college freshmen quite frankly are no more ready for this than freshmen are ready to contribute at a very large baseball elite high school.
Fascinating discussion.
In terms of the post which started this thread, the question becomes whether the coach "just" became one who just "recently" seems to sit better players or whether his sitting better players(underclassmen) while playing a sophomore, then junior, then senior(under performing all along)slipped under the radar.
From our experience, college coaches are pretty consistent from year to year when they win.
When they lose, they examine why and do it very deeply and look to change the reasons for the losing.
Obviously, not all coaches are the same. I honestly believe freshman and their parents usually are not going to be too surprised about what to expect from a coaching staff if they have done their homework and listened carefully to what has been said.
One aspect not yet fully discussed about freshman is coaches wanting to build their confidence and put them into situations where they succeed as the season progresses.
Our son's college coach made some playing time decisions that parents often questioned...until they worked.
Two illustrations are vivid for me.
In the conference championship game, in the 8th inning, with the bases loaded and his team down by 1, the coach PH with a freshman. At that point, the kid had less than 40 AB's all year. The player was one the coach believed in and tried to carefully build confidence through situational challenges.
Well, that freshman stepped up and tripled, drove in 3, and that team is off to the Regional.
When they get to the Regional, they reach the Championship game. Somewhat short on pitching, the choices are to have a senior starter come back on 3 days rest or a freshman with less than 10 innings all year.
Coach starts the freshman and is almost unbelievable in his confidence that kid will do the job. Well, 5 1/3 innings, 2 runs, 6 hits later, he has done his job so well, so very well.
In each situation, not only did the coaching staff believe each freshman would get the job done, so did their teammates.
As parents, it isn't always easy for us to recognize but a freshman not only needs to have the confidence of his coaches, he needs to have/earn the confidence of 34 other players that in any situation he will get the job done, no matter when the situation arises of how many AB's or innings he has had.
Last Spring I watched a local player who started and struggled mightily as a freshman in a top program. At one point, I think he was something like 2-20 with 10 K's. Coach stuck with him batting him 9th in the line up.
As time went along, he made adjustments and then about 1/3 of the way into the season had a huge 9th inning triple to drive in the winning runs in a game that appeared all but lost.
By seasons end, he was hitting 4th and was the Pac10 freshman of the year. The fact that player was a 2nd round pick the prior June showed his talent level. But he struggled mightily and many ABs looked totally over-matched.
Good college coaches know their players.
Good and well meaning parents/fans don't know the players, their skills and talents and especially their mental make up nearly as well, but seem to feel the limited time they watch provides and unlimited opportunity to question.
No two players or coaches are alike, especially in their mental make up and approach to teaching or playing and competing.
Do coaches make mistakes? Yup!
Do good and solid college coaches make less mistakes than freshman players? Yup!!
Do parents/fans make more mistakes than both when they try and question playing time decisions/innings allocations based on how little they watch and how little they know about the mental make up of the players?
!!!
In terms of the post which started this thread, the question becomes whether the coach "just" became one who just "recently" seems to sit better players or whether his sitting better players(underclassmen) while playing a sophomore, then junior, then senior(under performing all along)slipped under the radar.
From our experience, college coaches are pretty consistent from year to year when they win.
When they lose, they examine why and do it very deeply and look to change the reasons for the losing.
Obviously, not all coaches are the same. I honestly believe freshman and their parents usually are not going to be too surprised about what to expect from a coaching staff if they have done their homework and listened carefully to what has been said.
One aspect not yet fully discussed about freshman is coaches wanting to build their confidence and put them into situations where they succeed as the season progresses.
Our son's college coach made some playing time decisions that parents often questioned...until they worked.
Two illustrations are vivid for me.
In the conference championship game, in the 8th inning, with the bases loaded and his team down by 1, the coach PH with a freshman. At that point, the kid had less than 40 AB's all year. The player was one the coach believed in and tried to carefully build confidence through situational challenges.
Well, that freshman stepped up and tripled, drove in 3, and that team is off to the Regional.
When they get to the Regional, they reach the Championship game. Somewhat short on pitching, the choices are to have a senior starter come back on 3 days rest or a freshman with less than 10 innings all year.
Coach starts the freshman and is almost unbelievable in his confidence that kid will do the job. Well, 5 1/3 innings, 2 runs, 6 hits later, he has done his job so well, so very well.
In each situation, not only did the coaching staff believe each freshman would get the job done, so did their teammates.
As parents, it isn't always easy for us to recognize but a freshman not only needs to have the confidence of his coaches, he needs to have/earn the confidence of 34 other players that in any situation he will get the job done, no matter when the situation arises of how many AB's or innings he has had.
Last Spring I watched a local player who started and struggled mightily as a freshman in a top program. At one point, I think he was something like 2-20 with 10 K's. Coach stuck with him batting him 9th in the line up.
As time went along, he made adjustments and then about 1/3 of the way into the season had a huge 9th inning triple to drive in the winning runs in a game that appeared all but lost.
By seasons end, he was hitting 4th and was the Pac10 freshman of the year. The fact that player was a 2nd round pick the prior June showed his talent level. But he struggled mightily and many ABs looked totally over-matched.
Good college coaches know their players.
Good and well meaning parents/fans don't know the players, their skills and talents and especially their mental make up nearly as well, but seem to feel the limited time they watch provides and unlimited opportunity to question.
No two players or coaches are alike, especially in their mental make up and approach to teaching or playing and competing.
Do coaches make mistakes? Yup!
Do good and solid college coaches make less mistakes than freshman players? Yup!!
Do parents/fans make more mistakes than both when they try and question playing time decisions/innings allocations based on how little they watch and how little they know about the mental make up of the players?
quote:Just curious about the experience that some think might be missing in a freshman player.
The difference in baseball "specifics" you mentioned, are worlds apart, heck universes apart. In response to that statement I can only guess your player is in High School?
Any Freshman College player, when asked and if honest, will tell you that every starter on his Team is "either the best or among the very best that he's ever played with or against at that position. That's how big the jump is!
And for a position hitter facing College pitching and college level defenses; they are "babes in the woods" again. Starting pitchers, at this level, have command of pitches other than the fastball and learn to hit their spots. Weakly struck ground balls and elevated fly balls end up in the glove every time.
Now that may not hold true in every case as there are always stand out, stud, exceptions BUT for 99 out of 100 I would say it holds true.
And yes, college teams play a more fundamental game; SF's, bunts, moving the runner etc. Your Travel Team/High School Star was seldom expected to do so (but he will be now).
So yes 2bagger; IMHO there is no comparison to be made.
I've enjoyed this thread. I'll bet that most people have it within themselves to be OOTD's but I must admit, I have never been one myself 
Seriously, I like infielddad's comments about making mistakes. Pro scouts make mistakes, college scouts and coaches make mistakes, and we as parents after reading a few stats and watching a few practices are the most vulnerable to bad decision-making because we have the least amount of data to work from.
I also agree with what FO has to say about freshman playing time. It has to be earned and it almost always involves a certain amount of emotional pain before things even have a chance to pay off. As Coach May said in another thread, adversity is how they forge steel. I believe the very best coaches know how to make the very best and strongest steel - even the kind that won't rust after the college/baseball experience has ended.
Seriously, I like infielddad's comments about making mistakes. Pro scouts make mistakes, college scouts and coaches make mistakes, and we as parents after reading a few stats and watching a few practices are the most vulnerable to bad decision-making because we have the least amount of data to work from.
I also agree with what FO has to say about freshman playing time. It has to be earned and it almost always involves a certain amount of emotional pain before things even have a chance to pay off. As Coach May said in another thread, adversity is how they forge steel. I believe the very best coaches know how to make the very best and strongest steel - even the kind that won't rust after the college/baseball experience has ended.
Just some random thoughts after reading this entire thread and following it as it has unfolded.
I can't help but think about this young man being discussed here. He has parents. I am sure they are very proud of him. I wonder how we would feel if someone was talking about our kid and why he shouldnt be in the line up on a message board based on his stats. And a freshman that has not proven a thing yet at the college level should be playing in front of him not because of anything he has proven but because someone else had a poor ba.
It takes me back to last year when I had to sit by myself at every game I attended. I had to find a spot where no one could "get to me" so I could enjoy watching the game. "I can't believe so and so is playing and your boy is not. I can't believe so and so is in the line up you know what he is hitting so far this year?" "Have you said anything yet because I would Blah Blah Blah Blah." "How you handleing this? I know its got to be tough. How is your boy doing? Man if I were you." Over and over and over.
And at the same time I am sitting there pulling for every kid even the one my son is in competition with for playing time. Hoping he would do well so the team would do well and hoping he would do well because he's a good kid and doesnt deserve to have people on his own team, fans, parents etc pulling against him. What a crock of bs is that. You tell your kid to be a great team mate. You tell your kid to pull for everyone. You tell your kid to be a team player. You tell your kid to bust his butt, work hard and when he gets a chance to do his best. And then you sit there and do what? Talk trash about his team mates. Pull against his team. Hope for the failure of another persons child so your kid can get a chance to play?
You tell you kid to respect his coaches and to listen to everything they tell him. You tell your kid to keep chopping that wood and stay focused on doing what he needs to do. Stay positive and everything will work out the way its suppose to work out. And then you sit there and tell everyone how stupid the coaches are and how they have no clue who should be in the line up.
I have never wanted my kid to get anything because someone else failed. I want him to get what he deserves because he earned it not because someone else did not.
The bottom line is people should be quiet and let the coach do his job. Its his team not yours. Its his decision not your decision. This is college baseball. Your son as a player needs to earn what he gets and make his own way. And sometimes there will be things that will make you shake your head and wonder what the hel is going on. But you put that stuff aside and do the right thing. You allow your son to fight his fight and do what he has to do. And if you do things the right way and he does things the right way he will get what he deserves in the end.
Or you can be one of those people that tries to prove why your son should be in the line up. One of those people who tries to use stats as a reason why your son should be in the line up because another persons child should not be in the line up. The same person that will no longer see stats as important to staying in the line up if your son is struggleing. One of those people that spends four years miserable and makes everyone around them miserable. And then when its all said and done ends up bitter and filled with negative memories of it all.
You have two options here. Sit back and enjoy the process. Sit back and enjoy seeing your child grow up as a man and as a baseball player. Sit back and allow him to fight for what he really wants. Sit back and be a good team mate.
Or you can be one of those parents. But if your going to be one of those parents just man up about it. Call the coach up and tell him exactly whats on your mind. Find out exactly whats on his mind. And while your at it tell him exactly whats on your mind. At least I could respect that a whole lot more than the folks I have spent so many days trying to hide from at the games. And the same people I finally had to just put in their place. "Hey I came here to watch a game and pull for our team. I am not the coach and neither are you. So before I start talking s&&t in the stands to you I am going to go straight to the coach. And if I do that I will tell him you have some things you want to say as well."
People can bash me for this statement but I am going to make it anyway. A huge red flag pops up everytime I see this. Someone that knows the stats of the players his son is competing against. Someone who tries to use stats as a reason their kid should be playing or another kid should not be playing. Someone who tries to advocate for their kid by demeaning another player. I dont like that stuff. I tell you one thing I have learned in life. You go ahead and hope someone else has a bad day so you can have a good day. Kharma is a B*tch folks. And what goes around comes around. Maybe one day your kid is that Sr and he is having a tough year. And everyone around you instead of pulling for your son is pulling against him and talking about how he should be benched in favor of so and so.
I have never understood people who simply can not allow their son to be a team mate. Allow their son to win it on his own and fight his fight. If the OP is not one of these parents then it should not offend. It the shoe doesnt fit dont wear it.
I can't help but think about this young man being discussed here. He has parents. I am sure they are very proud of him. I wonder how we would feel if someone was talking about our kid and why he shouldnt be in the line up on a message board based on his stats. And a freshman that has not proven a thing yet at the college level should be playing in front of him not because of anything he has proven but because someone else had a poor ba.
It takes me back to last year when I had to sit by myself at every game I attended. I had to find a spot where no one could "get to me" so I could enjoy watching the game. "I can't believe so and so is playing and your boy is not. I can't believe so and so is in the line up you know what he is hitting so far this year?" "Have you said anything yet because I would Blah Blah Blah Blah." "How you handleing this? I know its got to be tough. How is your boy doing? Man if I were you." Over and over and over.
And at the same time I am sitting there pulling for every kid even the one my son is in competition with for playing time. Hoping he would do well so the team would do well and hoping he would do well because he's a good kid and doesnt deserve to have people on his own team, fans, parents etc pulling against him. What a crock of bs is that. You tell your kid to be a great team mate. You tell your kid to pull for everyone. You tell your kid to be a team player. You tell your kid to bust his butt, work hard and when he gets a chance to do his best. And then you sit there and do what? Talk trash about his team mates. Pull against his team. Hope for the failure of another persons child so your kid can get a chance to play?
You tell you kid to respect his coaches and to listen to everything they tell him. You tell your kid to keep chopping that wood and stay focused on doing what he needs to do. Stay positive and everything will work out the way its suppose to work out. And then you sit there and tell everyone how stupid the coaches are and how they have no clue who should be in the line up.
I have never wanted my kid to get anything because someone else failed. I want him to get what he deserves because he earned it not because someone else did not.
The bottom line is people should be quiet and let the coach do his job. Its his team not yours. Its his decision not your decision. This is college baseball. Your son as a player needs to earn what he gets and make his own way. And sometimes there will be things that will make you shake your head and wonder what the hel is going on. But you put that stuff aside and do the right thing. You allow your son to fight his fight and do what he has to do. And if you do things the right way and he does things the right way he will get what he deserves in the end.
Or you can be one of those people that tries to prove why your son should be in the line up. One of those people who tries to use stats as a reason why your son should be in the line up because another persons child should not be in the line up. The same person that will no longer see stats as important to staying in the line up if your son is struggleing. One of those people that spends four years miserable and makes everyone around them miserable. And then when its all said and done ends up bitter and filled with negative memories of it all.
You have two options here. Sit back and enjoy the process. Sit back and enjoy seeing your child grow up as a man and as a baseball player. Sit back and allow him to fight for what he really wants. Sit back and be a good team mate.
Or you can be one of those parents. But if your going to be one of those parents just man up about it. Call the coach up and tell him exactly whats on your mind. Find out exactly whats on his mind. And while your at it tell him exactly whats on your mind. At least I could respect that a whole lot more than the folks I have spent so many days trying to hide from at the games. And the same people I finally had to just put in their place. "Hey I came here to watch a game and pull for our team. I am not the coach and neither are you. So before I start talking s&&t in the stands to you I am going to go straight to the coach. And if I do that I will tell him you have some things you want to say as well."
People can bash me for this statement but I am going to make it anyway. A huge red flag pops up everytime I see this. Someone that knows the stats of the players his son is competing against. Someone who tries to use stats as a reason their kid should be playing or another kid should not be playing. Someone who tries to advocate for their kid by demeaning another player. I dont like that stuff. I tell you one thing I have learned in life. You go ahead and hope someone else has a bad day so you can have a good day. Kharma is a B*tch folks. And what goes around comes around. Maybe one day your kid is that Sr and he is having a tough year. And everyone around you instead of pulling for your son is pulling against him and talking about how he should be benched in favor of so and so.
I have never understood people who simply can not allow their son to be a team mate. Allow their son to win it on his own and fight his fight. If the OP is not one of these parents then it should not offend. It the shoe doesnt fit dont wear it.
Great post Coach May (as usual).
For a short time when my son was 13 I was that "parent" in the stands. Luckily people I respected on the team pointed out to me how I sounded and I learned to shut up! Hated being that way when I realized what I was doing. Since then I have always supported the entire team and coaches. Unless you want to coach and put in all the time they do we really have no right to criticize who coaches put on the field.
My son was lucky enough to start as a freshman in college. It was a thrill to see his name in the line-up. Midway through the season he started struggling at the plate. His coaches gave him every shot to work his way out of the slump but he just didn't hit as well as the beginning of the season. Personally as a parent I was hoping they'd pull him long before they did. But even when he wasn't playing we still went to all the games we could to support the team. In our opinion the coaches did the right thing by not playing him at the time.
That same season a junior sat on the bench most of the entire season. His parents were at every game and cheered for all the boys. He was told as a senior he again might not get much playing time but elected to come back anyway. Fall ball he did ok, not great, but spring he set the world on fire with his bat. He had the highest batting average most of the season. And his parents were still there at every game cheering for the entire team.
Be the classy parents that are supportive of all the players on the team, what ever age your kid is.
And now that you've generated 4 pages of great responses, would love to hear what you think of all this jim in ny ???????
For a short time when my son was 13 I was that "parent" in the stands. Luckily people I respected on the team pointed out to me how I sounded and I learned to shut up! Hated being that way when I realized what I was doing. Since then I have always supported the entire team and coaches. Unless you want to coach and put in all the time they do we really have no right to criticize who coaches put on the field.
My son was lucky enough to start as a freshman in college. It was a thrill to see his name in the line-up. Midway through the season he started struggling at the plate. His coaches gave him every shot to work his way out of the slump but he just didn't hit as well as the beginning of the season. Personally as a parent I was hoping they'd pull him long before they did. But even when he wasn't playing we still went to all the games we could to support the team. In our opinion the coaches did the right thing by not playing him at the time.
That same season a junior sat on the bench most of the entire season. His parents were at every game and cheered for all the boys. He was told as a senior he again might not get much playing time but elected to come back anyway. Fall ball he did ok, not great, but spring he set the world on fire with his bat. He had the highest batting average most of the season. And his parents were still there at every game cheering for the entire team.
Be the classy parents that are supportive of all the players on the team, what ever age your kid is.
And now that you've generated 4 pages of great responses, would love to hear what you think of all this jim in ny ???????
quote:... part of the reason that a good young hitter has hitting success in high school or college is that there are junior and senior's hitting in the 3 and 4 hole. The junior's and senior's hit there because they have the experience to complete in that position... the inexperienced hitters usually hit in the 5 or 9 hole and are not pitched to in the same way the 3 or 4 hole is.
So, it is not unusual for an upperclassmen's BA to go down in comparison to their freshman and sophomore numbers. So, comparing a freshman fall BA to a junior or senior season BA is not a good comparison.
GED10DaD
quote:obstacles to stay in the lineup.
Here's a few.
Staying eligible.
Staying sober.
Girlfriend.
Fatherhood.
Peeing into the cup.
Staying out of fights.
Curfew.
So, a freshman with the high BA, who is a clutch hitter, keeps his grades up, stays sober, minimizes female contact, pees into the cup when asked, wins any fights he is involved, and has an adequate cover for curfew violations, has a chance to make the lineup in the spring on a game to game basis, if one of the starters does not stay eligible, gets drunk, knocks his GF up, can not pee into a cup, loses a fight, or has a curfew alibi failure.
Read that last sentence very slowly.
Fun, ain't it?
FO, That is amazing! I love it!