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Griffey, Bonds, Lau jr... Which don't belong?

S SBK500+ posts
When the name of Charlie Lau Jr. was mentioned on another thread, I went and checked out his website. While on the site, I came across pictures of players like Bonds and Griffey. That seems like the left wing liberals claiming Ronny Reagan as one of their own.

The picture I found quite revealing was one of Griffey which the Lau folks are using to demonstrate "staying inside the ball". (Full disclosure ... a cue I can't stand)

Here is a link to the page that has the photo of a young Griffey still with the Mariners. You'll need to scroll to the bottom of the page to see him.

http://www.lauhitting.com/step3.htm

To all you hitting experts.... What are your comments on this picture? And how does it reflect on the credibility of what this website is trying to promote?

If you are seeing a hitting instructor, see what they make from this picture.

Here's my take. Griffey just got badly fooled on a hard fastball in. The last thing he wanted to do was stay inside it. You can tell that it got to him early because he hasn't even had a chance to straighten his front leg as he rotates. In addition you can see the obvious disconnect and bat lag. He normally at this point would have his bat pretty much in line with his arm.

In addition, if you look at the top of his left shoe, you can see the ball foulded off . The chances are his timing was better on the next pitch and he used picture perfect rotational style to go yard.

The point is that it's amazing what some people do make their case, especially if it is weak. I'm sure Griffey would love to replace this picture but then that wouldn't let some disengenuous people "see what they want to see".
“The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing”. Philosopher Edmund Burke
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S SBK500+ posts
theEH,

There might be a lot of natural hitters.

The problem is that it's not long after their born, their dads start teaching them to step in to the ball and a few years later their high school coach teaches them to throw their hands at the ball.

And if that's not enough, the poor kids goes to a website or hitting instructor and learns that they are supposed to take the knob to the ball and stay "inside" it.

After that it's all over.

So anyway, who knows how many natural born hitters there are. I know that there aren't many left when they get through the system.
deemaxdeemax500+ posts
sbk quote
quote:
The problem is that it's not long after their born, their dads start teaching them to step in to the ball and a few years later their high school coach teaches them to throw their hands at the ball.

And if that's not enough, the poor kids goes to a website or hitting instructor and learns that they are supposed to take the knob to the ball and stay "inside" it.

After that it's all over.

So anyway, who knows how many natural born hitters there are. I know that there aren't many left when they get through the system.


So true. As the teaching of this game (In the USA)regresses it leaves me wondering what the face of baseball will look like in ten years. Hopefully our baseball philosopy (USA's) is never incorperated in Latin America or Japan, because I would hate to see the game run out of prospects...(this is an exaggeration, but not really...)
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by SBK:
The picture I found quite revealing was one of Griffey which the Lau folks are using to demonstrate "staying inside the ball". (Full disclosure ... a cue I can't stand)...Griffey just got badly fooled on a hard fastball in. The last thing he wanted to do was stay inside it. You can tell that it got to him early because he hasn't even had a chance to straighten his front leg as he rotates. In addition you can see the obvious disconnect and bat lag. He normally at this point would have his bat pretty much in line with his arm.


First, I think that stay inside the ball is an entirely useless cue. It isn't at all obvious what it means. What's the alternative? Staying outside the ball? What does that mean? Also, what's supposed to be inside the ball? The bat? The hands? How could you ever hit the ball if your hands weren't inside the ball?

I think there are many better cues to use when it comes to hitting.



I interpret the photo of Griffey quite differently.

It looks to me like the ball isn't yet in the frame, which means that his front knee is in the process of extending and his bat is in the lag position. His hip rotation is pulling him up onto his back toe.

I don't see any signs of bat drag; his hands are clearly in front of his back elbow.
Last edited by thepainguy
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Brn2Hit:
Some younger hitters have a tendency to extend outward from the body as they bring the bat through the hitting zone. This results in a slower swing, that some may call "Army". A quicker way to the ball is to have the hands go in a straight path to the hitting zone. This results in a much quicker swing. This is "staying inside the ball". Allowing your arms to extend prematurely as you are bringing the bat to the hitting zone would be the alternative and less efficient outcome.


I agree that you want the hands to stay tighter to the body rather than letting the arms extend out into the Power V shape before the Point Of Contact.

However, as the below clip of Pete Rose shows, his hands do not travel on a straight path. Instead, if you watch his hands in relation to the chalk line on the ground, you will see that they stay relatively close to his back shoulder and rotate as his shoulders rotate.

Last edited by thepainguy
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Brn2Hit:
I understand that Pete Rose does not take a direct path to the ball. And although he was an awesome player and IMVHO should be in the Hall of Fame, he was a singles and doubles hitter who was very good at getting the most out of what he did. I would rather see a different, quicker, approach to the ball, which I believe is capable of generating more explosive power.


Name a single major league player who doesn't use the approach illustrated by the clip of Rose.
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
As most know, I'm trying to stay out of these hitting discussion but do want to point out hat Pujos' hands only appear to be thrown at that ball due to the angle of the picture. If you take that same picture and put a grid on it via programs like RVP, you'll notice that in fact those hands have a circular motion as well. Notice his forearm matches the plane of the ball and he is rotating his upper body and pelvis while staying "connected" in order to drive that ball. His hand never really go straight to the ball. JMHO!
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
I deleted my last posts after reading yours. However, I'd check their position at contact and note whether they have maintained "connection" or not. If they have then their hands have to stay rotational with the shoulders, pelvis etc. In my experience one other issue that makes it seem as if players throw their hands at the ball is simply the ability of a hitter to adjust tilt. Again, JMHO!
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Brn2Hit:
Here is a clip of Pujols that illustrates a more direct path.
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro;jsessionid=44do...&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9


Not really.

In the clip, you can see that Pujols' hands don't move in a straight line.

While they may not move in a purely circular path, they certainly move in an arc rather than a straight line.

The same thing applies to many of the other hitters you cite.

The side views don't count because you can't see the path of the hands relative to the plate.
Last edited by thepainguy
S SBK500+ posts
The pain guy,

Check again... It looks like the ball is by his left foot.

Brn2hit,

If you still believe top hitters take their hands directly to the ball, when do they start the bat on this path?

Since all baseballs drop as they near the plate, how do you hold the bat above the ball when you start and then get below the ball to match the plane while maintaining this straight line?

I wish you the best and mean nothing personal but you are doing exactly what I meant when I started this topic. The Lau group took a bad picture of Griffey and tried to make a case that he is staying inside the ball just like they advocate.

I would recommend to anybody serious about hitting and that thinks the top hitters routinely take the bat directly to the ball, figure out what really is going on before they ever swing a bat or instruct again. Watch the best hitters from the pitcher's view. Focus on how the hands get hid from the pitcher as the hitter loads. This forces the hands to go forward in an arc and not directly at the ball. You can see just about every mlb hitter by going to mlb.com, look up the players name, go to their page and click on multimedia.

Here's an example...... http://www.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w_id=510100&...l=&type=v_free&_mp=1

As Deemax said, a lot of USA baseball players are doing things that hardly represent the top players. With all the technology and physics available, a few of us find it quite amazing. Let's teach our kids better..... do it for your country.
Last edited by SBK
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
There is a swing plane to be realized......A straight line will not get the bat on the proper swing plane.....


Actually, they might, but the hands and wrists aren't strong enough to quickly whip the head of the bat around into the path of the ball. IOW, linear mechanics may work against BP pitches but aren't fast enough to deal with ML pitching.

The fact that the bat lags behind the hands is evidence of this.
Last edited by thepainguy
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
Painguy, that post leads me to understand that you need a better comprehension of swing plane.....

Also, your mention of linear leads me to believe you have lagged in your understanding of how the body needs to move in a high level swing....

You would do well to forget about mechanics and begin thinking about body angles and movement....
Last edited by BlueDog
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
The hands and wrists can whip the bat very quickly.....Problem is they can't produce enough power because they won't be taking advantage of the shoulder linkage


This statement is contradictory.

When it comes to hitting, "whip" is synonymous with "power".

From the whip comes the power (in the form of bat speed).

In physics terms, the relevant equation is F=MA. Since M (the mass of the bat) is constant as is the length of the bat (one component of A), the only variable that alters F (the Force) is the rate at which the head of the bat is traveling.

The muscles of the hands and wrists simply cannot whip the bat as quickly as the muscles of the torso can due to the size of the muscles involved. As I said, this is made clear by the lag position that the bat assumes. The bat lags because the muscles of the hands and wrists are not strong enough to enable the bat to do anything else.

The bat is then whipped out into the path of the ball by the rotation of the shoulders, to which the hands and arms are linked.
S SBK500+ posts
As far as the Griffey example, it is a very bad swing. No big deal! Everyone takes a bad swing when they are fooled on a pitch by either timing or location. We can't confuse an individual bad swing as an example of a player's technique.

People get too hung up on a "bad swing". Some people also like to use a "bad swing" from a player to show that the player is doing something that reinforces their agenda.

My primary reason for starting this post was to expose the Lau group for using a bad example to push their agenda. It seems that they are given a free ride. If a hitter like Griffey uses the technique they espouse, his swing technique would more like his "bad swing" picture and nobody would have ever known him.

As stated over and over by a few, .... there are a handful of things that almost all the best hitters do and one of these is to not take the hands directly to the ball.

Now don't take my word for this or Bluedog and the others here that at least got this basic but important piece of the hitting puzzle figured out. And don't believe the Lau group or others who say you should take your knob and hands directly to the all.

And for crying out loud, don't look at one isolated picture of anyone and deem it proof of anything. Just get off your lazy rear and watch many clips at many angles and figure it out for yourself.

And then when you do and figure out what is going on, be smart enough to question everything that the group that has been misleading you on this point tells you.
Last edited by SBK
ShepsterShepster1,000+ posts


A lot of good clips. Don't forget about the daddy, father and mentor and my friend#30 on the World Series Champion Big Red Machine!!!

Shep(Left) and Griffey(right) Wonder who had the best homerun story??? Some of my stories pales in comparison to the one Griff told me about when he and Junior had back to back homeruns for Seattle as father/son teammates. Griff told me his went about forty more feet further than Junior's HR Big Grin Let's don't forget about the ole school player's like Griffey Sr. Anybody have some good ole clips of Griffey Sr?? peace shep
Last edited by Shepster
T theEH1,000+ posts
I watched that game Shep, SR and JR both going yard.
What a memory for those 2.

I remember walking around the old King Dome with my little guy right next to me.
And would be the only one's out in the upper decks.
And JR would look up at us all by are selfs.

He did not wave, But you knew he was looking right at us.
I miss those days, it was fun.
EH
ShepsterShepster1,000+ posts
EH

Ken was probably giving your little one his prayers and blessings when he was looking your way:>Wink

Ken is that kind of person. A class act and a gentleman in every sense of the word.

He didn't say in that story he told me a couple of weeks ago what stadium he and Junior hit the back to back, but I believe it was in the Angels Stadium.

Peace My Brother,
Shep
T tom.guerry100+ posts
Lau Jr has tweaked Sr's system so it is nicely compatible with the MLB swing pattern.

If you follow the Lau formula, he gets the right type of extension sequence with a long radius/off the plate type swing necessitated by his lead arm extension/top hand release type action.

He emphasizes hip rotation and gets good torso coil by his focus on prevention of "top hand dominance" by open top hand drill and pulling knob with lead arm, not shoulder turn. "Top hand dominance" is arm action that interrupts torso coiling and forces loss of "early batspeed" and means lack of adequate swing quickness and adjustability.

He understands the need for in/out adjustment in this type of swing which requires more weight shift TO not against front leg for outside location.

Peavy's system is very similar, see Peavynet.com and likewise fine for learning the mlb pattern.

Lau uses his "trademark" cues - "front foot hitting" and "lead arm extension/top hand release" to then take credit for any hitter who EITHER gets off back foot or releases top hand. This si over the top, but a good marketing ploy.

So, for example, he says Bonds is doing what he says becasue he has top hand release even though he is a "back foot hitter".

Jr has said he thinks Bonds would be better if he got off the back foot more.

I think that is stretching it a little.
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