I saw the show last evening. I think this segment should be must viewing for every parent of a little leaguer or travel team player for kids that are under 14. Very interesting, and thought provoking.
More important, LL boards and all their coaches would be well advised to watch this.
I think the best arms in youth BB are the most vulnerabe because the kid with the good arm is the one who is most likely sought out to pitch. They are frequently overused due to heavy schedule and coaches who places winning the tournament over the long-term health of young arms. As a result many potential talented pitchers never make it to the next level due to injury. Old/new school coaches have a responsibility to protect their players from long-term harm.
I have to change my tune. I am caught up in what I do as a coach. I let my kids throw curveballs 10-20% of the time. However, we are on a comprehensive program of warm-up and warm-down. The LAST thing I want is a sore arm (not to mention a hurt one). But, I must confess, I watched a well respected high school coach keep his star LHP in for most of a DOUBLE-HEADER (140 pitches with breaking balls in the mix). I confronted the dad (I know both the catcher & dad since I am a known youth coach in the area). His reply was that the coach said his son's arm has never been "tested". I was appauled. I didn't want to make a big deal right there, so I just said, "You know, soldiers say it is the bullet you don't hear that gets you". I hope I made my point. At least he knew I did not approve of what just occurred. As a rule, TRhit, your right. But in theory, with careful, good coaching and a thoughtout pitching program, you can throw breaking pitches.
I just don't think many coaches have a very good pitching program.
I just don't think many coaches have a very good pitching program.
Being the skeptic that I am let me add my 2 cents. Just like everything else common sense comes into play. Why do they have the rules for little league to limit the number of innings. Because an adult forced it. Some coach was pitching a kid all the time. Now maybe the kid was really good and it was not much about his arm but because he as beating everybody else? (A little sarcasm) Now they have pitching rules for high schools to limit the number of innings. Again why?
As a kid i remember playing ball everyday(no adult supervision) we had all kinds of games involving throwing. I was throwing all the time. Never had a sore arm. At 56 I can still go out and throw BP. Am I freak of nature? maybe a freak but who knows.
As a kid i remember playing ball everyday(no adult supervision) we had all kinds of games involving throwing. I was throwing all the time. Never had a sore arm. At 56 I can still go out and throw BP. Am I freak of nature? maybe a freak but who knows.
Will
One difference now though-- the kids play 12 months a year and mostly in a competitive atmosphere-- you and I did not do that-- I know I did not play baseball 12 months a year
One difference now though-- the kids play 12 months a year and mostly in a competitive atmosphere-- you and I did not do that-- I know I did not play baseball 12 months a year
Hoping not to overstep my bounds here and jump into the "club" whilst not being invited. First off Im from Michigan ,get that out of the way for the leery ones. Whats the first question that comes out of a orthos mouth when a kid is in for a visit due to arm problems? Ive never heard of it being does the kid throw breaking pitches. I have in everysingle case barring traumatic injury being how often/much does the kid play/pitch. imo anybody that actually believes a 12 year old kid with decent mechanics throwing perhaps 6-8 maybe even 10 curveballs in a 60 pitch outing as the real culprit for arm injuries is simply fooling themselves. The fact is for every pitch that is thrown there is one less to be thrown whether its a fastball,curveball or otherwise, again Im advocating NOTHING. Ive seen kids throw dozens of curveballs in an outing and I have seen kids throw zero breaking pitches in an outing with the same exact results in regards to arm pain . I have seen kids throw what they think or have been taught is a cutter but in most cases it is nothing more than weak slider which imo is the worst possible pitch to be thrown. Research has indicated that a PROPERLY thrown curve ball is about as stressful to the arm as a fastball through kinematic analysis, thats not coming from me its coming from asmi. Pitching is a crapshoot at best only the strong survive. The facts are percentage wise VERY FEW pitchers are injured when using numbers that include all youth pitchers. Comparing the players who perhaps play rec/house leagues against those who play select/travel there is [barring traumatic injury] no doubt many more cases of injuries for those who play in a more competitive environment. do most of you really believe those that play in a rec environment are NOT trying to throw breaking pitches with no doubt in many cases less knowledgeable coaches? It is also said that a kids growth plates do not fully seal until the very late teen years or even beyond. Who honestly believes that 14 is the magic number for throwing breaking pitches? If so why knowing that growthplates do not seal until beyond these years? You cant have it both ways, there is no such thing as becoming half pregnant! It is my opinion that perhaps people are missing the boat becasue they do not realize in regards toyouth baseball ,players who play 70-100 games ina 5 or 6 month span need to realize that it is a must that they PREPARE to play and that in most cases PLAY is not preparation! Imo there is no comparison in regards to the real culprit for arm problems in youth baseball overuse/repetitive stress DWARFS breaking pitches in culpability. Major league pitchers are called upon to pitch every 5 days. youth pitchers ina competitive environment commonly find themseves throwing in a game situation twice and in some idiotic cases three times over the course of a weekend anybody with a lick of common sense would consider this much more stressful to a young arm than perhaps a range of 8-10% breaking pitches being thrown with correct mechanics. Until somebody comes up with some clear concise reason as to why 14 is the magic number I know where my thoughts will be which is prepare to play do not play to prepare!
polishpride,
Very well said.
Very well said.
One compounding factor in the cold weather states is that the kids do not "throw" enough between games and practices to keep the arm in shape. Many times in our region HS teams will play 5 games in 5 days to make up for rained out games. Thus the kids do not throw in between--they play every day--when practices are rained out the kids don't go inside and throw because other sports are already in the gym.
As for the younger LL kids they never play "catch" unless a coach is with them-- nobody plays on their own anymore-- nobody throws on their own anymore
As for the younger LL kids they never play "catch" unless a coach is with them-- nobody plays on their own anymore-- nobody throws on their own anymore
Im a firm believer in prehab such as tubing in between throwing as well as before throwing. I realize that kids do not throw the same we did when we were kids. In fact compared to most of us over 40 kids do practically zilch in all phases of physical activity.
Just for my own reference, how about you pro bender guys explain proper mechanics of a good curve.
quote:Do the right thing and litigation does not enter the picture
TRhit
Call me a cynic, but IMHO, litigation often has very little to do with right or wrong.
How about the kids in the Dominican that throw every day all day.. are they built differently do they have mom and dad running them to the doctors or pitching coaches working on there mechanics.In general they throw harder and run faster then the kids here..Whats the deal there?
quote:do they have mom and dad running them to the doctors
They might go to the doctor if he was available.
I'm guessing they simply don't play if they can't throw the ball anymore.
quote:I'm guessing they simply don't play if they can't throw the ball anymore.
Good point.
Trhit
i wish i could have played 12 months. And you are right kids do not play on their own anymore. They do not know how. If it is not organized by an adult it seems meaningless to some. I used to referee youth football. I saw kids 11 and 12 taken off the field in ambulances with broken legs. Perspective!!!
i wish i could have played 12 months. And you are right kids do not play on their own anymore. They do not know how. If it is not organized by an adult it seems meaningless to some. I used to referee youth football. I saw kids 11 and 12 taken off the field in ambulances with broken legs. Perspective!!!
Did anyone happen to catch the HBO Real Sports on pitching? (obviously yes, i posted this b4 i saw this section)
If not, they had a doctor on who has been doing tommy john sugeries to boys ages 11-13, enough to make someone sick.
He wants to start making coaches responsable and liable for such things.
I wanted to give my take on the subject and also get some of yours in return
I think its a joke some of the mentalities coaches have for young kids....11-13 year olds playing year round? Hello...most professional pitchers do not pick up a baseball from when the season ends until about december...how and why would anyone think a growing boy can maintain health during such a season. Another point of view this doctor had was these coaches are ruining these kids....for what? The coach may have a trophy on there mantle, meanwhile they hurt the future of a young kid. Example being Kerry Woods High school coach has a state ring, and he did so by throwing Wood a double header in one day over 100 pitches each game...Now was wood all for it, im sure, but its the coaches job to step in and say no....As that trophy hangs somewhere in Texas, Kerry Woods career has been filled with inconsistancy and injury and thats where most of it stems from.
I will use a friend of mines HS as another example...I believe over the last 9 years, 6-7 of the schools number ones have faced TJ surgery or arm problems out of hs...this is because a coach had the theory of "lets throw as many curveballs as possible" and constantly would have kids over the 100 pitch mark. I know some people have the attitude its not a coaches job to prepare kids for college, and that to me is very false.
Back to the show, it had the idea of outlawing curveballs until age 14-15 (a survery taken of MLB players stated that was the best age), if a kid were to throw a duece, he would be ejected...this doctor also wanted to mandate pitch limits as apposed to inning limits...which is a good point.
Will any of this ever happen? I hope so because it was sick to hear and to see what coaches do to kids, to see how desperate someone could be to win a pony league tournament and so on....Its time to stand up and make changes, there is no reason for an 11 year old boy to need MAJOR reconstructive survey
Now we all get caught in the heat of the momement, sure guys have throw on short rest and no rest at all in big situations....but at ages 11-13 I dont believe, in the big picture, there are big situations.
This is a very highly debated topic, and I personally have strong views on it because of the type of coaches I grew up with, ones that monitored pitches ata young age, encouraged and forced proper handling on off days and enough rest. I am not a win at any coact kind of guy, and maybe thats good, maybe thats bad....but would I do know is that I would never but a young childs health and risk to win a baseball game, because we all know that in the big picture, its not about wins and loses.
if you have any comments about my statements, please contact me at dwoinen@yahoo.com because I do not access this site very often
Looking forward to your comments
If not, they had a doctor on who has been doing tommy john sugeries to boys ages 11-13, enough to make someone sick.
He wants to start making coaches responsable and liable for such things.
I wanted to give my take on the subject and also get some of yours in return
I think its a joke some of the mentalities coaches have for young kids....11-13 year olds playing year round? Hello...most professional pitchers do not pick up a baseball from when the season ends until about december...how and why would anyone think a growing boy can maintain health during such a season. Another point of view this doctor had was these coaches are ruining these kids....for what? The coach may have a trophy on there mantle, meanwhile they hurt the future of a young kid. Example being Kerry Woods High school coach has a state ring, and he did so by throwing Wood a double header in one day over 100 pitches each game...Now was wood all for it, im sure, but its the coaches job to step in and say no....As that trophy hangs somewhere in Texas, Kerry Woods career has been filled with inconsistancy and injury and thats where most of it stems from.
I will use a friend of mines HS as another example...I believe over the last 9 years, 6-7 of the schools number ones have faced TJ surgery or arm problems out of hs...this is because a coach had the theory of "lets throw as many curveballs as possible" and constantly would have kids over the 100 pitch mark. I know some people have the attitude its not a coaches job to prepare kids for college, and that to me is very false.
Back to the show, it had the idea of outlawing curveballs until age 14-15 (a survery taken of MLB players stated that was the best age), if a kid were to throw a duece, he would be ejected...this doctor also wanted to mandate pitch limits as apposed to inning limits...which is a good point.
Will any of this ever happen? I hope so because it was sick to hear and to see what coaches do to kids, to see how desperate someone could be to win a pony league tournament and so on....Its time to stand up and make changes, there is no reason for an 11 year old boy to need MAJOR reconstructive survey
Now we all get caught in the heat of the momement, sure guys have throw on short rest and no rest at all in big situations....but at ages 11-13 I dont believe, in the big picture, there are big situations.
This is a very highly debated topic, and I personally have strong views on it because of the type of coaches I grew up with, ones that monitored pitches ata young age, encouraged and forced proper handling on off days and enough rest. I am not a win at any coact kind of guy, and maybe thats good, maybe thats bad....but would I do know is that I would never but a young childs health and risk to win a baseball game, because we all know that in the big picture, its not about wins and loses.
if you have any comments about my statements, please contact me at dwoinen@yahoo.com because I do not access this site very often
Looking forward to your comments
Here's my perspective...
When 'Every Day' Eddie Guardado was with the Twins, I talked to him after a game to get an autograph. I asked him how he gripped his curveball, but he wouldn't show me because I was only 12 at the time. He was very serious too, and definately believed I was too young to throw the curve. I don't know about you guys, but I trust one of the best relievers in the game.
When 'Every Day' Eddie Guardado was with the Twins, I talked to him after a game to get an autograph. I asked him how he gripped his curveball, but he wouldn't show me because I was only 12 at the time. He was very serious too, and definately believed I was too young to throw the curve. I don't know about you guys, but I trust one of the best relievers in the game.
I can honestly say that our program has not seen any arm problems amongst our pitchers. I attribute this to the program that I stated above. However, I suspect that the reduced velocities (under 70 mph) have a lot to do with the reduction of wear and tear on the youth arm. I have a SS with a soar arm. This I believe is a direct result of improper warm-up, conditioning and mechanics. I have an outfielder that refuses to warm-up properly when not monitored. I confronted his father and let him know that he is a surgery waiting to happen.
Coach Dwoinen,
Good post! There are plenty of coaches out there who put the kids arm above a $50 trophy, those that don't simply rationalize their behavior and hope for the best.
Lots of folks can tell the difference though and they are not all inside the fence.
Good post! There are plenty of coaches out there who put the kids arm above a $50 trophy, those that don't simply rationalize their behavior and hope for the best.
Lots of folks can tell the difference though and they are not all inside the fence.
Koufax didn't throw a curve until he was 18 or 19. Didn't even play HS baseball until he was a senior and then he was a first baseman. He had severe arm problems which caused him to retire at the age of 30. Not a very long career and not one that throwing the curve at 12 had any effect on.
Given that there are risks associated with throwing any pitch be it a breaking ball or fastball; the durability of any given Pitcher may be determined more by his genetic makeup and to a smaller extent conditioning than what or how many pitches he throws.
It so happens that those kids who throw these junk pitches are the ones that usually have the talent to throw strikes in the first place.
Accordingly they will get more work and have a greater incidence of problems. The question is was the type of pitches or the type of pitcher that led to the problems that lead to surgury.
Rollerman