HBP

If you consider throwing inside when a batter is crowding the plate to mess with the pitcher, then YES!
One can say, "I never threw at a batter, there were just some pitches where I made it more difficult for him to avoid getting hit".
Overall, striking the batter out is the best statement a pitcher can make.

"Are there instances in high school baseball in which it is permissable or even warranted for a pitcher to intentionally hit a batter?"

No. There will be times as a pitcher gets older when they have an opportunity to "take matters into their own hands". But that's their own decision. But, IMO, intentionally hitting a batter in HS is never warranted.

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Originally posted by Pat H:
"There will be times as a pitcher gets older when they have an opportunity to "take matters into their own hands". But that's their own decision.

I am referring to situations where pitchers might "take matters into their own hands," but wonder what the distinction is between HS and when the pitcher is "older."

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Are there instances in high school baseball in which it is permissable or even warranted for a pitcher to intentionally hit a batter?

No.

We had a HS game last week where the batter was crowding the plate so much his hands were in the strike zone. If the pitcher would have plunked that hitter, he would have been well within his rights. Pitcher owns the strike zone.

I still remember Guy Mctheney, pitching for Sarasota Riverview H.S., breaking two of my ribs on a "wayward" inside FB in 1967.

Our pitcher promptly plunked their first hitter the following inning. I certainly thought his actions were justifiable, and much appreciated by me! My how times and the game have changed. Our society is so "woosified" these days.

Let the fireworks begin!@@

I saw a pitcher throw at a batter 3 times in a plate appearance last night and missed him each time. He also aimed for the runner on second base and threw right at his head. Runner on second was broadcasting signs and probably would have been less obvious if he had just yelled them out...

Both dugouts were going nuts. They were ****ed off because he was "stealing signs" and our guys were going nuts laughing because he was making it so obvious!

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I am referring to situations where pitchers might "take matters into their own hands," but wonder what the distinction is between HS and when the pitcher is "older."

My feeling is that if a HS pitcher intentioanlly throws at a batter it's a reflection of the HS program/team and coach. In college (and beyond) if that happens it tends to be a reflection of the pitcher. A good HS coach should tell his pitchers that hitting a kid intentionally could have consequences, including severly injuring the batter.

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Originally posted by Prime9:
I still remember Guy Mctheney, pitching for Sarasota Riverview H.S., breaking two of my ribs on a "wayward" inside FB in 1967.

Our pitcher promptly plunked their first hitter the following inning. I certainly thought his actions were justifiable, and much appreciated by me! My how times and the game have changed. Our society is so "woosified" these days.

Let the fireworks begin!@@

No fireworks from me. In fact, its thinking like that, that shows why there’s such a big difference in how people think in the world.

You evidently believe Guy Mctheney did that on purpose and you love the idea that there was retribution. But let’s say you found out that Guy had lost his footing on a poorly maintained mound, and it was just a simple accident through no fault of his. And would you still feel great if the guy that got plunked by your pitcher got plunked in the face and lost the sight of an eye?

Prime9: A PM will head your way shortly.

I have never found it neccessary to intentionally throw at a batter.

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
I still remember Guy Mctheney, pitching for Sarasota Riverview H.S., breaking two of my ribs on a "wayward" inside FB in 1967.

Our pitcher promptly plunked their first hitter the following inning. I certainly thought his actions were justifiable, and much appreciated by me! My how times and the game have changed. Our society is so "woosified" these days.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
I saw a pitcher throw at a batter 3 times in a plate appearance last night and missed him each time. He also aimed for the runner on second base and threw right at his head.

According to some on this site these pitchers are criminals and should have charges pressed. There is a sense that this is part of the checks and balances of the game. Don't check and you won't get balanced.

Keep in mind that owning the strike zone and intentionally hitting a kid are 2 completely different mindsets. If a batter is over the plate you want to go inside, by all means it's within your right as a pitcher...still there's no intent to hit the batter in that instance. This happen with my son in LL. A younger batter came up to bat..I was focused on my son who was pitching. As he went into his wind up I noticed that the batter's front foot was almost on the plate! I was just about to yell but...too late. Pitch was inside and up and as he went to swing was hit in the mouth. The kid had to have 2 bottom teeth filled in at the roots. No intent, and a terrible outcome.

Let me give you an illustrative example, that I think makes it obvious that the answer is a clear "NO!" and has nothing to do with being 'woosified.'

High level college game several years ago. Batter hits towering home run early in the day, mocks opponents dugout on his way around 1B.

Later in the day (game-2 of a DH), with the game out of reach...same hitter comes up with 2 out, no one on. First pitch, zing...high and tight (but didn't hit him). Batter stomps towards mound. Crowd gets a little motivated. No warnings, game goes on...inning ends.

Bottom of inning, home team hitter comes up (who has nothing to do with antics so far)...first pitch, 90+ fastball...ZING! Smack in the head. Batter goes down...for a long time...is unable to walk from the field on his own. Immediately taken to hospital...major concussion. Will recover (does recover), however ringing in his ears that the doctor tells him will never go away.

THESE...are college kids, with some amount of control of their pitches. Its highly debatable that even college kids should be hitting anyone on purpose. There is simply no way, 'wussy' or not, that a HS kid should throw at a hitter. The results could easily be this bad or worse.

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Originally posted by mcmmccm:

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
I still remember Guy Mctheney, pitching for Sarasota Riverview H.S., breaking two of my ribs on a "wayward" inside FB in 1967.

Our pitcher promptly plunked their first hitter the following inning. I certainly thought his actions were justifiable, and much appreciated by me! My how times and the game have changed. Our society is so "woosified" these days.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
I saw a pitcher throw at a batter 3 times in a plate appearance last night and missed him each time. He also aimed for the runner on second base and threw right at his head.

According to some on this site these pitchers are criminals and should have charges pressed. There is a sense that this is part of the checks and balances of the game. Don't check and you won't get balanced.

It can be a fine line bewteen playing the game hard and malicious intent.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
I saw a pitcher throw at a batter 3 times in a plate appearance last night and missed him each time.

A few years ago my son (2015) told me he was instructed by his coach to throw at a batter. He said it's a lot harder to do than you might imagine. The team actually had a signal for it. The coach was an old school former college level pitcher who has all kinds of stories about retributional pitching.

It seems like the pros have a safer method these days by throwing behind the batter. But even that can cause the benches to clear.

justbaseball I totally get your example and point. But let me ask you a question, not to be contentious just curious.

How do you police the following situation?

Local team has reputation for shall we say being less than sporting. We are playing them a few weeks back. Son is catching. Their big CF is runner at third. Safety squeeze our pitcher makes a nice play and kid is clearly going to be out at home. He knows he can't truck my son but comes in very hard with his spikes up (my son's thigh to prove the high spikes).

Does the runner simply get to do this without any impact to him? I admit the umpire could eject the runner if he thought intent , but I don't think I have seen that on a hard slide nor should I think so.

Again I am not saying that a fastball to the hip next time is the answer (for the reasons you pointed out) just curious your thoughts.

Fair question BackstopDad32.

The real answer is that the umpire should have taken care of it, then and there. Period.

If not him, then the runner's coach should have taken care of it.

If not him, your son's coach could have made an impact on it by making a big stink about it...event would still be in the past and your son would still have the gashes in his leg, but the point would have been made.

At least 2 people failed at their jobs and a 3rd could have made a more effective statement in front of everyone by objecting firmly with the umpire (and risking ejection)...just so everyone knows what a lousy move that runner made. The runner would think twice next time.

And the reality is, I would not claim that I wouldn't want the runner popped on his next AB...as a fan (or parent) that is. But the reality also is, it should not be done because the risk is too high. I simply cannot imagine how ****** I would feel if I, or one of my sons, badly injured another player all in the name of 'baseball justice.'

Darn..once again the wife is right

That should be immediately addressed by the Ump and the Manager. I would let the teams reputation get them in the end by not scheduling a game against them due to their dirty tactics, maybe some other teams will follow suit.

I talked to a college level pitcher once who would never throw a pitch at a batter. If he wanted to send a message, he would walk the guy and then plunk him in the ribs with a throw over to first base.

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Originally posted by HVbaseballDAD:
I talked to a college level pitcher once who would never throw a pitch at a batter. If he wanted to send a message, he would walk the guy and then plunk him in the ribs with a throw over to first base.

What's the difference?

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What's the difference?

A baserunner is a more defenseless position.

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Originally posted by justbaseball:
The runner would think twice next time.

Maybe he couldn't care less.

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Originally posted by Tx-Husker:

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What's the difference?

A baserunner is a more defenseless position.

Diving back into first base--perhaps. But a baserunner leading off first is in constant motion and his movements are totally unpredictable. Will he take off for 2nd? Will he get back standing up? Etc. A batter has to stay in the batter's box--usualy the best he can do (and what he is taught to do) is turn toward the catcher, exposing his ribcage. Just sayin'.

As far as I know, and there is no rule in any rulebook that I have ever read, it is NOT legal at any level to purposly hit the batter. I know it happens in the BIG LEAGUES, but its still not legal. It usually is an umpires decision if the pitch was intentional or not.
There is a kid on our high school JV team who hits at least 1 batter every time he pitches. We just chalk it up as, "thats his one for the day" LOL

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As far as I know, and there is no rule in any rulebook that I have ever read, it is NOT legal at any level to purposly hit the batter.

That's only because there's no way to know intent for certain.

Unless the pitcher mumbles a follow up comment like, "bet you won't say anything again" or "got what you deserved" loud enough for everyone to hear

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Originally posted by slotty:

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
The runner would think twice next time.

Maybe he couldn't care less.

So are you here to argue/justify some point? Or are you here to consider other points of view?

But to your question. Do you believe he will learn his lesson by being drilled with a pitch by another HS kid? I don't. I think there's a greater chance that a) he retaliates himself in some fashion (words, mound charge, another ridiculous slide) or b) he will be seriously hurt thus ruining not only his day, but everyone else's.

I think there is a FAR greater chance that at least his parents will learn something...that they may pass onto junior...when they/he are embarrassed from being ejected by the umpire, removed from the game by his coach or pointed out by his opponent's coach.

We had a pitcher on our travel team who could dot the I on the front of a uniform with a fastball. He's a D1 closer his freshman year. The two times I remember him hitting batters was the next time up after coming in high with the cleats on a middle infielder turning two and stomping a first baseman's leg.

A typical high school pitcher does not have this kind of control. So to generically answer the original poster's question, I would say no.

I like the idea of a hitter thinking that there's a possibility I might get dotted for doing something stupid. Really would not endorse it with one exception (pet peeve #793) when a batter rolls his shoulder into a slow curve in an effort to get hit. If he wants to get hit sooo badly the pitcher should oblige him with a fb to the ribs. Situation permitting of course.

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Originally posted by justbaseball:

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Originally posted by slotty:

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
The runner would think twice next time.

Maybe he couldn't care less.

So are you here to argue/justify some point? Or are you here to consider other points of view?

Just playing devil's advocate. You stated what the result of a coach's vehement verbal protest would be as if it were fact rather than an educated guess.

This is not a new topic of baseball conversation. I'm just trying to get some feedback from a wide range of people who know and love the game, have some connection to HS baseball, and have strong opinions, that's all. As I said in my original post...I had pretty high expectations that the topic would "open a can of worms."

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Originally posted by slotty:

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Originally posted by justbaseball:

quote:

Originally posted by slotty:

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
The runner would think twice next time.

Maybe he couldn't care less.

So are you here to argue/justify some point? Or are you here to consider other points of view?

Just playing devil's advocate. You stated what the result of a coach's vehement verbal protest would be as if it were fact rather than an educated guess.

This is not a new topic of baseball conversation. I'm just trying to get some feedback from a wide range of people who know and love the game, have some connection to HS baseball, and have strong opinions, that's all. As I said in my original post...I had pretty high expectations that the topic would "open a can of worms."

Slotty, PM back at you!

H.S., is about the right age, as far as I'm concerned, to learn how physical intimidation can affect performance, yours and theirs!

never warranted---- not always

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Originally posted by TRhit:
never warranted---- not always

Agreed, a Coach should never endorse or condone it.

quote:

Originally posted by slotty:
I suspect I might be opening up a can of worms with the following question, but here goes...

Are there instances in high school baseball in which it is permissable or even warranted for a pitcher to intentionally hit a batter?

There is no time in HS or college that it is permissable to hit a batter intentionally.
It's acceptable for a pitcher to send a message, that would be to throw behind his back, and usually that job is given to the most accurate pitcher.

FWIW, this isn't even acceptable in the pro game, but happens but you might not realize it. Sometimes it's the next series, to make it look not so obvious to the officials.

Throwing inside intentionally to hit the batter when he is crowding the plate also is a no no.

I don't see it as being wossified, with pitchers throwing 90+ someone can really get hurt.

quote:

Originally posted by slotty
This is not a new topic of baseball conversation. I'm just trying to get some feedback from a wide range of people who know and love the game, have some connection to HS baseball, and have strong opinions, that's all. As I said in my original post...I had pretty high expectations that the topic would "open a can of worms."

Ok...fair enough.

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Just playing devil's advocate. You stated what the result of a coach's vehement verbal protest would be as if it were fact rather than an educated guess.

Spikes high and injury to the catcher? Doesn't matter whether or not it was intentional...its dirty and if I were a coach, I'd protest it vehemently every time.

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I don't see it as being wossified, with pitchers throwing 90+ someone can really get hurt.

And with hitters launching them off of the bat of exit speeds well over 100+, they can't get hurt?

Ones not acceptable, the other is?