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Help with coaching dilemma please...

J Judy10+ posts
Hello to all you wonderful posters. I have been reading this forum religiously since September. Long story...hope someone is willing to read it all.

Freshman year son (LHP) had very tough year for many reasons and pitched really badly. We thought his pitching days were over. Did not really like JV coach's approach, but that was not really the problem..we thought.

Sophomore year. Previous coach moved up to assistant on Varsity, son stayed on JV...still pitching but getting more attention from V head coach (great pitching coach). Son improved steadily throughout the season, then played summer ball (local) for the V head coach. Improved even more. Started to look like he could really pitch. Got some private lessons and improved more. He does not throw hard, but his fastball moves, he has a killer changeup and worked on his curve so that now he can use it in a game confidently. Son is a late bloomer overall and has worked very hard on his pitching..he was never that kid who could just throw bullets.

Now Junior year. Over the summer the Varsity head coach was fired for ridiculous political reasons. Won't go into that here. Then, son's freshman JV coach was made the V coach. Things have been going downhill ever since. Today's game:

1st inning 2K, 1hit, 1 walk that scored on a balk
2nd inning son had 2 out, runners on 1 and 3 and coach pulled him. Put in a pitcher who then walked one to load the bases and then gave up a grand slam...couldn't get an out before he was pulled. Every other pitcher got hit hard. Son gave up one hard hit, one kid reached on an error, a couple of walks (a problem I know).

My issues...coach did not let son try to work his way out of the jam. I think he really sees son as the same pitcher he was freshman year and is just unwilling to give son a fair chance. The pitcher in the previous game gave up 4 runs in 2 innings but continued to pitch for 4...coach "trusts" that kid and doesn't "trust" son.

2nd issue...coach was offended when he found out that son was seeing a private pitching coach...son was doing very poorly in fall workouts and coach wanted to "start over" with teaching son to pitch. Son had one workout with the private coach and the problem was solved. The private lesson was scheduled before that, but coach was angry and didn't want to know feedback from private coach.

3rd issue... coach does not listen...(is young and overconfident) if you have a conversation with him you get in one or two words...the rest is him talking. He says out loud everything he is thinking so son is unable to communicate effectively with him and he gets many mixed messages. Ex: you will be a relief pitcher, you will compete for starting job, you are our #2 pitcher, you can only pitch 1 inning per game...this is all in a couple of weeks!

I know parents talking to coach is verboten and I'm sure in this situation it would make things worse...so WHAT TO DO??? This is junior year and seeing son going backwards, losing confidence is heartbreaking! We were really thinking he had a shot at playing in college, but now who knows.
Thanks for any advice.
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L leftyshortstop1,000+ posts
Judy - You sound like a great Mother. Please don't worry about HS baseball. It is out of your control and doesn't mean that much anyway. Make sure your son shows up to HS games with a fantastic attitude that says "I am in charge of my own behavior and I am here to help my team" He will learn that from you! That is what you are in control of. Everything else will work itself out. Then, make sure he is on a good summer team. That matters! When you get him in front of college coaches and they like what they see, no one will care about HS. They've heard every story already anyway.
B Bas3balldad10+ posts
I'm not a long time poster but I had a similer issue. The thing is even though it wasn't easy but I found if stayed out of he handled it my son handled it alot better than I did.
As for private coaching don't tell the school coach. My son loves his pitching and hitting coach. No matter what the coach does at practice when he leaves the his training session he feels 10 feet tall. I wouldn't trade that because the school coach has an issues.
Most coaches don't want to discuss with parents what goes on at practice or games. It's a dictatorship what they say goes. It's up to you to adapt believe me I know it's not easy but let it go you and your son will be much happier.
jemazjemaz1,000+ posts
Judy:

Best of luck. I hope it works out. There are no easy answers. I believe high school baseball matters a lot, every bit as much as summer ball and in most cases more. At least that is the situation as I have experienced it in Arizona. In fact, usually (but not always) it takes a strong high school performance to create summer opportunities with the better teams.

Most coaches do not like to see private coaches during the season. This is because the player can get conflicting information and it leads to confusion. If you are going to use a private coach, it is probably best if you keep it quiet.

Perhaps your high school coach is good, perhaps not, but I have never seen a coach who did not what to win. And to win, you have to play your best players. Pitchers who do not throw hard have a lot to overcome nearly everywhere. Their margin of error is small. You are undoubtedly correct in your comments about trust. I have never known a coach who does not go first with the players he trusts. Trust almost always is earned in practice and confirmed in games. All your son can do is his best and then hope that it leads to greater opportunity.

Keep in mind, too, that no matter what the coach decides someone will be unhappy because there are more players than positions. The one thing that never pays off with coaches -- good and bad -- is to compare players. The more your son can work within his coach's system the better off he probably will be.
Last edited by jemaz
B baseballfam4100+ posts
STAY STRONG! This is one of those "adversity" situations that, even though you don't see anything positive now, trust me a year from now you will look back and say...This made my son stronger mentally and physically to pursue bigger and better things.Summer baseball will be important.Your son will have to have that...I'll show them!!! kind of attitude.Keep focused on his goal!But,tell your son to keeping moving forward and to keep working out even harder and good things will come. I think every baseball player has some kind of story of adversity to tell.As a mother it is heart breaking,but you just have to stay strong for your son and help him work through it!
BumBum1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Judy:
He does not throw hard


This is the problem, and you need to recognize it. Those other pitchers whot got "hit hard" as you say, how hard do they throw? My guess is much harder. Remember, these kids can adjust to getting hit hard, learning to throw offspeed stuff, but your son, if he doesn't throw hard, cannot.

I'm not saying this to discourage you. I'm saying this as a dose of reality. Get your son to throw hard.

If you want to know how this is done, please research the art of long-toss. It results in a consistent arm slot, a quick arm, and arm health, all of which lend to greater velocity. And if he gains the velocity, he will pitch in college regardless of what happens in high school. Good luck.
Last edited by Bum
J Judy10+ posts
Well, after a good night's sleep everything looks different. Thanks for the great feedback so far. I guess I just needed a place to rant, but the bottom line is that I want to help my son deal with this. HIs skills seem fragile and he is not a kid with a lot of confidence.

A question: Since he is not a high velo pitcher, how can he make a competetive summer team. Really his changeup is almost unhittable, but everyone is looking for pure velo. True?

As far as working on velo, he has done some long toss, but not enough. Do kids do extra in addition to the regular season practices and games?

The only reason we mentioned the private coach was because of what happened in the fall. And son does not see him during the season.

Husband...data guy by trade...figured out that last night son threw 50/50 fastball/changeup with a few curves in the first inning when he was successful and 50/50 fastball/curve with a few changeups in second when he got into trouble. Is it reasonable for son to bring this up to the coach? I hate dealing with EGO...I wish this coach could set that aside and see that by helping son become a better pitcher, he helps the team.
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
WHAT TO DO???

Judy - welcome.

Here is a thought. Perhaps if the private coach helps your son's confidence, go see him for a tune-up. Your son's V coach doesn't need to know what he is doing in his spare time imho.

The best advice I can give here is try not to personalize things. The new coach may simply abhor walks and when he sees them he is going to have a very short leash. He may think he is doing the best thing for the team by getting your son out of the game. Try to encourage your son to throw strikes and let the chips fall where they may. Let him know that you will continue to have confidence in him no matter what the outcome.
F freddy775,000+ posts
Judy,
Baseball coaches are not receptive to feedback from parents of pitchers regarding which pitches are called in a game.

Ditto, football coaches with regard to parents of QB's.

Pitchers with sub-standard velocity have more to prove. The bar is set higher, especially with respect to control. Low tolerance for bases on balls.
J Judy10+ posts
Believe me, we want son to do the talking to coach. We feel it will be a valuable life lesson as well as possibly helping son have more success as a pitcher. Husband coached HS football and many years youth baseball and football...he understands the coach's perspective all too well. We definitely plan to rehearse talking with the coach in a positive, respectful manner. My fear is that the coach won't actually let him say his piece...coach is a talker.

I really appreciate all the feedback and support. The good news is that son's motivation to keep working and improving has been increased by this setback. He sees that velocity is his next hurdle (has focused more on location to this point).

Thanks again. Sure I will be back with more questions as we continue this journey.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Judy,
Welcome to the HSBBW.
No coach ever, IMO, has to give a reason why he pulled out a pitcher so soon after his start. I saw on TV last week a pitcher get taken out first inning, then the reliever bringing home the runners on base. That is the coaches decision and he has to live with it, but I saw the demeanor in the pitcher go from a 10 to a 0 in a matter of minutes, that's not good.
Perhaps (think back) your son wasn't showing the confidance needed to be out there. Or as suggested, his velo was too low for the opposing hitters, balked, gave up the walk. That is something he needs to work on, and that can only be done by more practice, more conditioning for faster velo, and receiving proper instruction and gaining self confidance. And yes, the coach trusting the pitcher is HUGE.
The game is about adversity, let your son handle it with the coach in his own way and stay out of it, except to be supportive and never make excuses or blame anyone else for a bad outing, never.

JMO.
B Bear1,000+ posts
Judy, Judy, Judy.

Let's try this a different way.

a) Your statement: "My issues...coach did not let son try to work his way out of the jam." is an area you have zero business thinking, or even worse, influencing your son's thinking.

b) If I was your son's Coach (and I am not), and
you approached me, before, after, or during a game, to discuss your son's performance, I would let you know in a hurry to have your son speak to me (and without your presence.)

c) I am almost certain your soft throwing lefty needs to, in the eyes of the Head Coach, prove that he get hitters out. Which he has yet to prove.

d) The statement: "We definitely plan to rehearse talking with the coach in a positive, respectful manner."" should be rewritten to "My son plans to
talk with the coach."

e) Your son may wish to discuss with the Head Coach, what other opportunities are their to obtain exposure from recruiting college coaches, where does he Head Coach think your son can play in college, and when and where does the Head Coach think you son should seek summer/winter camps.

When your son falls again, have him fall on his back. If he can look up, he can get up.
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
coach did not let son try to work his way out of the jam.
It could just be the coach's philosophy. I watched a College World Series bound team's head coach yank his starters at the first sign of trouble for an entire three game weekend. He always went with the fresh arm when in trouble. I watched starters get relieved in the third and fourth inning all weekend. I watched starters not like it by the looks on their faces walking back to the dugout. But they dealt with it. Over the course of the season some of his starters averaged less than five innings per start.

Consider your son's opportunity to prove himself to be a better situation than another pitcher sitting on the bench hoping to get any chance to pitch. How your son choses to deal with the situation will depend on his mental makeup. Your son and you need to stop dwelling on the past as a problem, see the current situation as reality and how to work through it to success. It's not as if he's not getting a chance. If he wants to stay on the mound, don't walk hitters and get them out. That's all the coach is looking for to keep him in the game. If your son has the physical and mental ability it's doable. Good luck.
Last edited by RJM
J Judy10+ posts
To Bear,
I'm talking to you guys here for advice and so that I don't inadvertently influence son's thinking. I know it's not my business to solve this, but he's a young man (man at 16?) and I won't leave him out to dry...I'm going to "coach" him based on what he feels he wants to say to coach, or not, about his performance. If he wants to say nothing that is his choice, his call.

I never said we approached the coach on this nor will we.

This guy is a first year head coach. He may or may not know too much about other opportunities in our area. Whether son can play in college etc will be highly influenced by how things go this year. We shall see.

As for proving he can get hitters out...he proved it last season and during the summer...just not to this coach. This coach only knows son as he performed 2 years ago and I don't want that prejudice to determine what son is allowed to prove now. Hard to prove anything if not given opportunity.

Thank you for your feedback.

To Bum, Thanks for the info about long toss.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Judy,
Understand that parents come here for advice, but do understand it is not always going to be what they want to hear.
I don't always agree with Mr. Bear, he has a way of expressing himself a little differently that us moms may like, but IMO, his advice was pretty much accurate as to what you should or should not do.
BTW, IMO, if this was a good pitching instructor he would be instructing your son to long toss, as this does strengthen arm, as Bum has suggested to you, your son as a lefty has to throw harder, lefties that don't throw hard tend to use their off speed for success and never develop their FB, which is always the most important pitch to develop.
We tend to see things as parents differently when it is our own, but at 16 your son shouldn't be coached by you as to what to say to the coach, in fact if he really wants to make a statement, improve in the game and that speaks louder than any words. It may take a whole season, but he has senior summer and all of next fall and then more to improve to where a college coach will take notice. If son had to rely on HS ball he would be doing something else right now.
Learn and listen from the folks who have been down the road and accept and embrace that we do understand your dilemma, but we can't hold our players hands forever, they need to figure it out for themselves, and you know what, they do!
J Judy10+ posts
I'm really not trying to be defensive, but it appears I'm coming off that way. I find it interesting that people think son should not be assisted/coached in talking to his coach. I know when I have an important and difficult situation at work I may ask people I respect for advice, counsel, "coaching" about how to handle a situation. Is that really such an abnormal way to handle things? I have many friends/colleagues who ask the same of me...not to mention husband and I do this as well. Trying to understand why a 16yo should have to handle this without discussing it with people older, hopefully wiser. It's really about helping him think it through...not telling him what to say. Several of you have said this and I'm frankly stunned by it.

Pitching coach has worked mostly on location and hasn't even measured velocity...he wants son to nail location. Son has done some long toss but obviously not enough. Is this a red flag?

Such interesting and helpful information.
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
A few things here

Many pitching coaches won't get into long toss during a lesson--they expect the kid to do this on his own--this does not necessarily make the pitching coach a bad coach

Working on location---coach may think that this is key for your son especially if his velocity is not knocking doors down--even if there is great velocity location is still a key to success and it may be that your boy may never have great velocity

Don't be stunned by the "let the boy do it on his own" approach--it happens more than you think--I know I have always let my guys do it on their own
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Maybe it's the word "coaching" that you are using.
By all means you should support your son and listen to what he has to say and help him to express it, but I wouldn't tell him what to say to the coach.

We never coached son as to what to say because we had never been in the situation (playing baseball) he was in, so what good would our advice be? But we did listen (when he asked) and supported him, but we never told him what to say to any coach.

I am not a pitching coach but my idea is that working on nailing your spots (as you say), working on your secondary and developing your FB should go hand in hand and if not done by the pitching coach, should be asked what is he doing to improve on his own or be made aware of all that is involved.

Long toss is just another part of the equation, along with a good core program, legs, bandwork, productive bull pens, etc.
Last edited by TPM
SultanofSwatSultanofSwat10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Judy:
Pitching coach has worked mostly on location and hasn't even measured velocity


Most here would agree. Not me.

Your pitching coach should be improving technique that leads to increased velocity. If the instructor is not measuring, then how do you know your kid is improving?

If a HS pitcher cant hit upper 80s or 90, he's not going much further.
B Bas3balldad10+ posts
I had or have a similar problem as yours. One thing that seems to be helping me is I stopped asking my son about practice. He choose to tell me on his own sometimes but it's usually filtered for my benifit. Like if he got a good hit or threw a nasty slider. He'll sometime say coach says I need to work on my off speed pitch or that the coach say's he's not going to pitch anytime soon. I've gotten better at just say well work on your pitches, work hard at practice, and when you get your chance make the best of it. He talkes to the coaches they know he wants to pitch. My son knows he needs to work on somethings and I give my son the help he asks for not what I think he needs. He's also a left fielder so it helps that he's out on the field even though he wants to pitch.

I still have a hard time with how the coach does somethings but I never discuss it with my son or the coach. I came on here and vented then took a beating for what I said. Now I'm getting better proof anyone can improve.

My son's pitching coach never measured velocity. He goes more by how it looked or feels when it hit his glove. He kind of calls it as if it would be hit or not. He works on mechanics, location and other stuff. He does say to do long toss but he looks at it as two different things. Throwing long distance for a short period of time or throwing a short distance for long period of time.
B BK3510+ posts
Some pitching coaches teach location at the expense of velocity. If he is reccomending to slow up, keep your weight back and land in a perfect fielding position he is a location only guy IMHO. We have a lot of them where I am at. I would look for a guy who works on a more dynamic approach. Using the radar gun would help. "If you want to improve on somehting...measure it" or "people do what gets measured" or "the body organizes itself to the goal at hand" all words to live by.
AM AL MA 08100+ posts
Hi Judy,
I have to agree with most in that the decisions of the HS coach are not within your control or influence. The saying I remember is "don't worry about what you can't control".

My son is a LHP too and I have never been able to figure out the ryme or reason for leaving in some pitchers and taking out others at the first sign of trouble. My LHP is playing at the next level and this still occurs, so you just have to get used to it.

As to the pitching coach, by all means keep going and as someone mentioned a couple of visits during the season will reinforce what he has learned and help eliminate those minor changes that do and will occur if you are not seeing him regulary. It is difficult to go for a complete pitching session separate from the high school routine. It is too bad your coach does not want to work with you on that. As to opposing instruction from HS coach; you son will have to learn how to listen to others and then do what he knows is in his best interest concerning mechinics. Minor adjustments are one thing; like chest forward, stride foot pointing down the line to the plate... But if the HS coach is trying to change a the style i.e standing tall over the top to a drop and rotate style, then I say your son needs to ask the coach why he is trying to make such changes and that he is not comfortable changing styles. So first tell son to try to understand what and why the HS coach is trying to change and never allow major changes during the season as long as his mechanics are not hurting his arm.

The velocity aspect is very difficult to overcome. If he can get kids out HS and some college coaches will not care that he is not hitting hi 80's or 90 at 16/17. If he can't blow it past the batters he has to have great location on his breaking balls to both sides of the plate to be able to push his fast ball by them too. I have seen proper mechanics help develop 3 or 4 more mph. To keep getting more velocity he will need to develop more rotational momentum and strength. My son developed another 3 or 4 mph after a years worth of rigorus workout rigime with college trainers along with being a little older too.

But you know what, this past weekend I saw three different D1 colleges play my son's school and in the games I saw I did not see an opposing pitcher with velocity over 88mph. Two teams went through 3 or more pitchers out of the bull pin too. So keep building confidence and set reasonable goals if son wants to keep playing.
Last edited by AL MA 08
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
But you know what, this past weekend I saw three different D1 colleges play my son's school and in the games I saw I did not see an opposing pitcher with velocity over 88mph.

That is the dirty secret about college baseball. Dad04 has been posting that number for years and by reading many posts around here, you would think most college pitchers are low to mid 90's guys. Every D1 game I have ever been to (probably 50 or so) I peaked at the radar guns and the number was almost always 88 mph. What you throw at a PG event is often not your cruising speed. What many people post around here are max velocity numbers recorded on their kid's best ever day. For the college guys who throw above 90, most I saw were in closing situations. Some of those same guys, I saw their velocities drop by several mph when they were forced to conserve in a starting role however.

I think kids need to learn to pitch within themselves and take a long term view on things in order to build up to hopefully what are higher velocities later down the road. For some, that may mean eeking into a juco situation, gaining strength and maturity and seeing their velocity grow years down the road when they are physically capable. Velocity is great but there are lots and lots of high velocity high school guys who can no longer pitch due to injury.
Last edited by ClevelandDad
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
I have always maintained that the number of "supposed 90 plus arms" is inflated---the numbers are based on one or two pitches in a showcase or bullpen workout, not what the kid does in a game where he is probably cruising in the 86 to 88 MPH range-- AND IS HE HITTING HIS SPOTS AND GETTING BATTERS OUT ?

Getting outs is the key to pitching and I have found that in most cases the kid with the lower velocity is the better pitcher at the HS/College level--WHY? because he knows he has to be smarter when he cannot blow a pitch by the batter

If you know how to pitch there is a place for you at the next level
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
My son's pitching coach has helped place hundreds of pitchers in college ball at all levels. He told my son a pitcher throwing 85 consistantly with command can pitch at mid majors. He said a pitcher throwing 87-88 consistantly with command can pitch almost anywhere.

I know of two kids who went into D3's throwing 80-82 with command, came out throwing 90-92 and are now in the minors.
Last edited by RJM
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
I have already stated it--where did you get the info you posted not to mention that you stated it might not be exactly correct

To help your thinking and this comes from many D-III coaches and since your profile states that you are dead now and you are from baseball heaven you might not know this or missed it in your flight to baseball heaven-- D-III schools know they won't get the hi-velocity arms but they know they can get the kids with 78 to 83 MPH arms because they will be available and sprinkled in are arms of higher velocity because they want to pitch and get a D-III education without all the "not in class " time that happens at D-I and D-II power programs

To post a chart of arms only 80 and up is wrong---to say that arms under 85 are probably not going anywhere is SO FREAKING WRONG--in fact many arms in that range are pitching at the D-I level as well as II and III


Where do you get this info ??????
Why are you misleading people?
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