Skip to main content

101 replies

Help with coaching dilemma please...

J Judy10+ posts
Hello to all you wonderful posters. I have been reading this forum religiously since September. Long story...hope someone is willing to read it all.

Freshman year son (LHP) had very tough year for many reasons and pitched really badly. We thought his pitching days were over. Did not really like JV coach's approach, but that was not really the problem..we thought.

Sophomore year. Previous coach moved up to assistant on Varsity, son stayed on JV...still pitching but getting more attention from V head coach (great pitching coach). Son improved steadily throughout the season, then played summer ball (local) for the V head coach. Improved even more. Started to look like he could really pitch. Got some private lessons and improved more. He does not throw hard, but his fastball moves, he has a killer changeup and worked on his curve so that now he can use it in a game confidently. Son is a late bloomer overall and has worked very hard on his pitching..he was never that kid who could just throw bullets.

Now Junior year. Over the summer the Varsity head coach was fired for ridiculous political reasons. Won't go into that here. Then, son's freshman JV coach was made the V coach. Things have been going downhill ever since. Today's game:

1st inning 2K, 1hit, 1 walk that scored on a balk
2nd inning son had 2 out, runners on 1 and 3 and coach pulled him. Put in a pitcher who then walked one to load the bases and then gave up a grand slam...couldn't get an out before he was pulled. Every other pitcher got hit hard. Son gave up one hard hit, one kid reached on an error, a couple of walks (a problem I know).

My issues...coach did not let son try to work his way out of the jam. I think he really sees son as the same pitcher he was freshman year and is just unwilling to give son a fair chance. The pitcher in the previous game gave up 4 runs in 2 innings but continued to pitch for 4...coach "trusts" that kid and doesn't "trust" son.

2nd issue...coach was offended when he found out that son was seeing a private pitching coach...son was doing very poorly in fall workouts and coach wanted to "start over" with teaching son to pitch. Son had one workout with the private coach and the problem was solved. The private lesson was scheduled before that, but coach was angry and didn't want to know feedback from private coach.

3rd issue... coach does not listen...(is young and overconfident) if you have a conversation with him you get in one or two words...the rest is him talking. He says out loud everything he is thinking so son is unable to communicate effectively with him and he gets many mixed messages. Ex: you will be a relief pitcher, you will compete for starting job, you are our #2 pitcher, you can only pitch 1 inning per game...this is all in a couple of weeks!

I know parents talking to coach is verboten and I'm sure in this situation it would make things worse...so WHAT TO DO??? This is junior year and seeing son going backwards, losing confidence is heartbreaking! We were really thinking he had a shot at playing in college, but now who knows.
Thanks for any advice.
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

L leftyshortstop1,000+ posts
Judy - You sound like a great Mother. Please don't worry about HS baseball. It is out of your control and doesn't mean that much anyway. Make sure your son shows up to HS games with a fantastic attitude that says "I am in charge of my own behavior and I am here to help my team" He will learn that from you! That is what you are in control of. Everything else will work itself out. Then, make sure he is on a good summer team. That matters! When you get him in front of college coaches and they like what they see, no one will care about HS. They've heard every story already anyway.
B Bas3balldad10+ posts
I'm not a long time poster but I had a similer issue. The thing is even though it wasn't easy but I found if stayed out of he handled it my son handled it alot better than I did.
As for private coaching don't tell the school coach. My son loves his pitching and hitting coach. No matter what the coach does at practice when he leaves the his training session he feels 10 feet tall. I wouldn't trade that because the school coach has an issues.
Most coaches don't want to discuss with parents what goes on at practice or games. It's a dictatorship what they say goes. It's up to you to adapt believe me I know it's not easy but let it go you and your son will be much happier.
jemazjemaz1,000+ posts
Judy:

Best of luck. I hope it works out. There are no easy answers. I believe high school baseball matters a lot, every bit as much as summer ball and in most cases more. At least that is the situation as I have experienced it in Arizona. In fact, usually (but not always) it takes a strong high school performance to create summer opportunities with the better teams.

Most coaches do not like to see private coaches during the season. This is because the player can get conflicting information and it leads to confusion. If you are going to use a private coach, it is probably best if you keep it quiet.

Perhaps your high school coach is good, perhaps not, but I have never seen a coach who did not what to win. And to win, you have to play your best players. Pitchers who do not throw hard have a lot to overcome nearly everywhere. Their margin of error is small. You are undoubtedly correct in your comments about trust. I have never known a coach who does not go first with the players he trusts. Trust almost always is earned in practice and confirmed in games. All your son can do is his best and then hope that it leads to greater opportunity.

Keep in mind, too, that no matter what the coach decides someone will be unhappy because there are more players than positions. The one thing that never pays off with coaches -- good and bad -- is to compare players. The more your son can work within his coach's system the better off he probably will be.
Last edited by jemaz
B baseballfam4100+ posts
STAY STRONG! This is one of those "adversity" situations that, even though you don't see anything positive now, trust me a year from now you will look back and say...This made my son stronger mentally and physically to pursue bigger and better things.Summer baseball will be important.Your son will have to have that...I'll show them!!! kind of attitude.Keep focused on his goal!But,tell your son to keeping moving forward and to keep working out even harder and good things will come. I think every baseball player has some kind of story of adversity to tell.As a mother it is heart breaking,but you just have to stay strong for your son and help him work through it!
BumBum1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Judy:
He does not throw hard


This is the problem, and you need to recognize it. Those other pitchers whot got "hit hard" as you say, how hard do they throw? My guess is much harder. Remember, these kids can adjust to getting hit hard, learning to throw offspeed stuff, but your son, if he doesn't throw hard, cannot.

I'm not saying this to discourage you. I'm saying this as a dose of reality. Get your son to throw hard.

If you want to know how this is done, please research the art of long-toss. It results in a consistent arm slot, a quick arm, and arm health, all of which lend to greater velocity. And if he gains the velocity, he will pitch in college regardless of what happens in high school. Good luck.
Last edited by Bum
J Judy10+ posts
Well, after a good night's sleep everything looks different. Thanks for the great feedback so far. I guess I just needed a place to rant, but the bottom line is that I want to help my son deal with this. HIs skills seem fragile and he is not a kid with a lot of confidence.

A question: Since he is not a high velo pitcher, how can he make a competetive summer team. Really his changeup is almost unhittable, but everyone is looking for pure velo. True?

As far as working on velo, he has done some long toss, but not enough. Do kids do extra in addition to the regular season practices and games?

The only reason we mentioned the private coach was because of what happened in the fall. And son does not see him during the season.

Husband...data guy by trade...figured out that last night son threw 50/50 fastball/changeup with a few curves in the first inning when he was successful and 50/50 fastball/curve with a few changeups in second when he got into trouble. Is it reasonable for son to bring this up to the coach? I hate dealing with EGO...I wish this coach could set that aside and see that by helping son become a better pitcher, he helps the team.
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
WHAT TO DO???

Judy - welcome.

Here is a thought. Perhaps if the private coach helps your son's confidence, go see him for a tune-up. Your son's V coach doesn't need to know what he is doing in his spare time imho.

The best advice I can give here is try not to personalize things. The new coach may simply abhor walks and when he sees them he is going to have a very short leash. He may think he is doing the best thing for the team by getting your son out of the game. Try to encourage your son to throw strikes and let the chips fall where they may. Let him know that you will continue to have confidence in him no matter what the outcome.
F freddy775,000+ posts
Judy,
Baseball coaches are not receptive to feedback from parents of pitchers regarding which pitches are called in a game.

Ditto, football coaches with regard to parents of QB's.

Pitchers with sub-standard velocity have more to prove. The bar is set higher, especially with respect to control. Low tolerance for bases on balls.
J Judy10+ posts
Believe me, we want son to do the talking to coach. We feel it will be a valuable life lesson as well as possibly helping son have more success as a pitcher. Husband coached HS football and many years youth baseball and football...he understands the coach's perspective all too well. We definitely plan to rehearse talking with the coach in a positive, respectful manner. My fear is that the coach won't actually let him say his piece...coach is a talker.

I really appreciate all the feedback and support. The good news is that son's motivation to keep working and improving has been increased by this setback. He sees that velocity is his next hurdle (has focused more on location to this point).

Thanks again. Sure I will be back with more questions as we continue this journey.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Judy,
Welcome to the HSBBW.
No coach ever, IMO, has to give a reason why he pulled out a pitcher so soon after his start. I saw on TV last week a pitcher get taken out first inning, then the reliever bringing home the runners on base. That is the coaches decision and he has to live with it, but I saw the demeanor in the pitcher go from a 10 to a 0 in a matter of minutes, that's not good.
Perhaps (think back) your son wasn't showing the confidance needed to be out there. Or as suggested, his velo was too low for the opposing hitters, balked, gave up the walk. That is something he needs to work on, and that can only be done by more practice, more conditioning for faster velo, and receiving proper instruction and gaining self confidance. And yes, the coach trusting the pitcher is HUGE.
The game is about adversity, let your son handle it with the coach in his own way and stay out of it, except to be supportive and never make excuses or blame anyone else for a bad outing, never.

JMO.
B Bear1,000+ posts
Judy, Judy, Judy.

Let's try this a different way.

a) Your statement: "My issues...coach did not let son try to work his way out of the jam." is an area you have zero business thinking, or even worse, influencing your son's thinking.

b) If I was your son's Coach (and I am not), and
you approached me, before, after, or during a game, to discuss your son's performance, I would let you know in a hurry to have your son speak to me (and without your presence.)

c) I am almost certain your soft throwing lefty needs to, in the eyes of the Head Coach, prove that he get hitters out. Which he has yet to prove.

d) The statement: "We definitely plan to rehearse talking with the coach in a positive, respectful manner."" should be rewritten to "My son plans to
talk with the coach."

e) Your son may wish to discuss with the Head Coach, what other opportunities are their to obtain exposure from recruiting college coaches, where does he Head Coach think your son can play in college, and when and where does the Head Coach think you son should seek summer/winter camps.

When your son falls again, have him fall on his back. If he can look up, he can get up.
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
coach did not let son try to work his way out of the jam.
It could just be the coach's philosophy. I watched a College World Series bound team's head coach yank his starters at the first sign of trouble for an entire three game weekend. He always went with the fresh arm when in trouble. I watched starters get relieved in the third and fourth inning all weekend. I watched starters not like it by the looks on their faces walking back to the dugout. But they dealt with it. Over the course of the season some of his starters averaged less than five innings per start.

Consider your son's opportunity to prove himself to be a better situation than another pitcher sitting on the bench hoping to get any chance to pitch. How your son choses to deal with the situation will depend on his mental makeup. Your son and you need to stop dwelling on the past as a problem, see the current situation as reality and how to work through it to success. It's not as if he's not getting a chance. If he wants to stay on the mound, don't walk hitters and get them out. That's all the coach is looking for to keep him in the game. If your son has the physical and mental ability it's doable. Good luck.
Last edited by RJM
J Judy10+ posts
To Bear,
I'm talking to you guys here for advice and so that I don't inadvertently influence son's thinking. I know it's not my business to solve this, but he's a young man (man at 16?) and I won't leave him out to dry...I'm going to "coach" him based on what he feels he wants to say to coach, or not, about his performance. If he wants to say nothing that is his choice, his call.

I never said we approached the coach on this nor will we.

This guy is a first year head coach. He may or may not know too much about other opportunities in our area. Whether son can play in college etc will be highly influenced by how things go this year. We shall see.

As for proving he can get hitters out...he proved it last season and during the summer...just not to this coach. This coach only knows son as he performed 2 years ago and I don't want that prejudice to determine what son is allowed to prove now. Hard to prove anything if not given opportunity.

Thank you for your feedback.

To Bum, Thanks for the info about long toss.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Judy,
Understand that parents come here for advice, but do understand it is not always going to be what they want to hear.
I don't always agree with Mr. Bear, he has a way of expressing himself a little differently that us moms may like, but IMO, his advice was pretty much accurate as to what you should or should not do.
BTW, IMO, if this was a good pitching instructor he would be instructing your son to long toss, as this does strengthen arm, as Bum has suggested to you, your son as a lefty has to throw harder, lefties that don't throw hard tend to use their off speed for success and never develop their FB, which is always the most important pitch to develop.
We tend to see things as parents differently when it is our own, but at 16 your son shouldn't be coached by you as to what to say to the coach, in fact if he really wants to make a statement, improve in the game and that speaks louder than any words. It may take a whole season, but he has senior summer and all of next fall and then more to improve to where a college coach will take notice. If son had to rely on HS ball he would be doing something else right now.
Learn and listen from the folks who have been down the road and accept and embrace that we do understand your dilemma, but we can't hold our players hands forever, they need to figure it out for themselves, and you know what, they do!
J Judy10+ posts
I'm really not trying to be defensive, but it appears I'm coming off that way. I find it interesting that people think son should not be assisted/coached in talking to his coach. I know when I have an important and difficult situation at work I may ask people I respect for advice, counsel, "coaching" about how to handle a situation. Is that really such an abnormal way to handle things? I have many friends/colleagues who ask the same of me...not to mention husband and I do this as well. Trying to understand why a 16yo should have to handle this without discussing it with people older, hopefully wiser. It's really about helping him think it through...not telling him what to say. Several of you have said this and I'm frankly stunned by it.

Pitching coach has worked mostly on location and hasn't even measured velocity...he wants son to nail location. Son has done some long toss but obviously not enough. Is this a red flag?

Such interesting and helpful information.
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
A few things here

Many pitching coaches won't get into long toss during a lesson--they expect the kid to do this on his own--this does not necessarily make the pitching coach a bad coach

Working on location---coach may think that this is key for your son especially if his velocity is not knocking doors down--even if there is great velocity location is still a key to success and it may be that your boy may never have great velocity

Don't be stunned by the "let the boy do it on his own" approach--it happens more than you think--I know I have always let my guys do it on their own
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Maybe it's the word "coaching" that you are using.
By all means you should support your son and listen to what he has to say and help him to express it, but I wouldn't tell him what to say to the coach.

We never coached son as to what to say because we had never been in the situation (playing baseball) he was in, so what good would our advice be? But we did listen (when he asked) and supported him, but we never told him what to say to any coach.

I am not a pitching coach but my idea is that working on nailing your spots (as you say), working on your secondary and developing your FB should go hand in hand and if not done by the pitching coach, should be asked what is he doing to improve on his own or be made aware of all that is involved.

Long toss is just another part of the equation, along with a good core program, legs, bandwork, productive bull pens, etc.
Last edited by TPM
SultanofSwatSultanofSwat10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Judy:
Pitching coach has worked mostly on location and hasn't even measured velocity


Most here would agree. Not me.

Your pitching coach should be improving technique that leads to increased velocity. If the instructor is not measuring, then how do you know your kid is improving?

If a HS pitcher cant hit upper 80s or 90, he's not going much further.
B Bas3balldad10+ posts
I had or have a similar problem as yours. One thing that seems to be helping me is I stopped asking my son about practice. He choose to tell me on his own sometimes but it's usually filtered for my benifit. Like if he got a good hit or threw a nasty slider. He'll sometime say coach says I need to work on my off speed pitch or that the coach say's he's not going to pitch anytime soon. I've gotten better at just say well work on your pitches, work hard at practice, and when you get your chance make the best of it. He talkes to the coaches they know he wants to pitch. My son knows he needs to work on somethings and I give my son the help he asks for not what I think he needs. He's also a left fielder so it helps that he's out on the field even though he wants to pitch.

I still have a hard time with how the coach does somethings but I never discuss it with my son or the coach. I came on here and vented then took a beating for what I said. Now I'm getting better proof anyone can improve.

My son's pitching coach never measured velocity. He goes more by how it looked or feels when it hit his glove. He kind of calls it as if it would be hit or not. He works on mechanics, location and other stuff. He does say to do long toss but he looks at it as two different things. Throwing long distance for a short period of time or throwing a short distance for long period of time.
B BK3510+ posts
Some pitching coaches teach location at the expense of velocity. If he is reccomending to slow up, keep your weight back and land in a perfect fielding position he is a location only guy IMHO. We have a lot of them where I am at. I would look for a guy who works on a more dynamic approach. Using the radar gun would help. "If you want to improve on somehting...measure it" or "people do what gets measured" or "the body organizes itself to the goal at hand" all words to live by.
AM AL MA 08100+ posts
Hi Judy,
I have to agree with most in that the decisions of the HS coach are not within your control or influence. The saying I remember is "don't worry about what you can't control".

My son is a LHP too and I have never been able to figure out the ryme or reason for leaving in some pitchers and taking out others at the first sign of trouble. My LHP is playing at the next level and this still occurs, so you just have to get used to it.

As to the pitching coach, by all means keep going and as someone mentioned a couple of visits during the season will reinforce what he has learned and help eliminate those minor changes that do and will occur if you are not seeing him regulary. It is difficult to go for a complete pitching session separate from the high school routine. It is too bad your coach does not want to work with you on that. As to opposing instruction from HS coach; you son will have to learn how to listen to others and then do what he knows is in his best interest concerning mechinics. Minor adjustments are one thing; like chest forward, stride foot pointing down the line to the plate... But if the HS coach is trying to change a the style i.e standing tall over the top to a drop and rotate style, then I say your son needs to ask the coach why he is trying to make such changes and that he is not comfortable changing styles. So first tell son to try to understand what and why the HS coach is trying to change and never allow major changes during the season as long as his mechanics are not hurting his arm.

The velocity aspect is very difficult to overcome. If he can get kids out HS and some college coaches will not care that he is not hitting hi 80's or 90 at 16/17. If he can't blow it past the batters he has to have great location on his breaking balls to both sides of the plate to be able to push his fast ball by them too. I have seen proper mechanics help develop 3 or 4 more mph. To keep getting more velocity he will need to develop more rotational momentum and strength. My son developed another 3 or 4 mph after a years worth of rigorus workout rigime with college trainers along with being a little older too.

But you know what, this past weekend I saw three different D1 colleges play my son's school and in the games I saw I did not see an opposing pitcher with velocity over 88mph. Two teams went through 3 or more pitchers out of the bull pin too. So keep building confidence and set reasonable goals if son wants to keep playing.
Last edited by AL MA 08
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
But you know what, this past weekend I saw three different D1 colleges play my son's school and in the games I saw I did not see an opposing pitcher with velocity over 88mph.

That is the dirty secret about college baseball. Dad04 has been posting that number for years and by reading many posts around here, you would think most college pitchers are low to mid 90's guys. Every D1 game I have ever been to (probably 50 or so) I peaked at the radar guns and the number was almost always 88 mph. What you throw at a PG event is often not your cruising speed. What many people post around here are max velocity numbers recorded on their kid's best ever day. For the college guys who throw above 90, most I saw were in closing situations. Some of those same guys, I saw their velocities drop by several mph when they were forced to conserve in a starting role however.

I think kids need to learn to pitch within themselves and take a long term view on things in order to build up to hopefully what are higher velocities later down the road. For some, that may mean eeking into a juco situation, gaining strength and maturity and seeing their velocity grow years down the road when they are physically capable. Velocity is great but there are lots and lots of high velocity high school guys who can no longer pitch due to injury.
Last edited by ClevelandDad
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
I have always maintained that the number of "supposed 90 plus arms" is inflated---the numbers are based on one or two pitches in a showcase or bullpen workout, not what the kid does in a game where he is probably cruising in the 86 to 88 MPH range-- AND IS HE HITTING HIS SPOTS AND GETTING BATTERS OUT ?

Getting outs is the key to pitching and I have found that in most cases the kid with the lower velocity is the better pitcher at the HS/College level--WHY? because he knows he has to be smarter when he cannot blow a pitch by the batter

If you know how to pitch there is a place for you at the next level
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
My son's pitching coach has helped place hundreds of pitchers in college ball at all levels. He told my son a pitcher throwing 85 consistantly with command can pitch at mid majors. He said a pitcher throwing 87-88 consistantly with command can pitch almost anywhere.

I know of two kids who went into D3's throwing 80-82 with command, came out throwing 90-92 and are now in the minors.
Last edited by RJM
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
I have already stated it--where did you get the info you posted not to mention that you stated it might not be exactly correct

To help your thinking and this comes from many D-III coaches and since your profile states that you are dead now and you are from baseball heaven you might not know this or missed it in your flight to baseball heaven-- D-III schools know they won't get the hi-velocity arms but they know they can get the kids with 78 to 83 MPH arms because they will be available and sprinkled in are arms of higher velocity because they want to pitch and get a D-III education without all the "not in class " time that happens at D-I and D-II power programs

To post a chart of arms only 80 and up is wrong---to say that arms under 85 are probably not going anywhere is SO FREAKING WRONG--in fact many arms in that range are pitching at the D-I level as well as II and III


Where do you get this info ??????
Why are you misleading people?
fenwaysouthfenwaysouth10,000+ posts
quote:
My son's pitching coach has helped place hundreds of pitchers in college ball at all levels. He told my son a pitcher throwing 85 consistantly with command can pitch at mid majors. He said a pitcher throwing 87-88 consistantly with command can pitch almost anywhere.

I know of two kids who went into D3's throwing 80-82 with command, came out throwing 90-92 and are now in the minors.


RJM - I think your numbers are closer to the truth than anything posted here. I saw UVA (#1 in country) play Dartmouth yesterday. Almost all fastballs were in the 84-88 range for BOTH teams with the exception of the UVA closer (89-93 range). It is early in the season, so these numbers will probably go up as the weather is warmer and arms get looser. Your fastball numbers are realistic in my opinion.
J Judy10+ posts
I'm glad this discussion took the turn it did since these are issues I am interested in. Next visit to the private coach we will ask him to measure velo so that son will have a benchmark of progress and how far he needs to go. Both the pitching coaches son has worked with (one in MA and one in NC)have been more concerned with form/location vs. velo. Interesting discussion.
RobVRobV100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Judy:
Both the pitching coaches son has worked with (one in MA and one in NC)have been more concerned with form/location vs. velo.


Form over function. Roll Eyes

IMO herein lies a huge problem with a lot of "coaches" these days. They are more concerned with what "looks pretty" rather than how to develop high level throwing ability.

Carry on...
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by RobV:
quote:
Originally posted by Judy:
Both the pitching coaches son has worked with (one in MA and one in NC)have been more concerned with form/location vs. velo.


Form over function. Roll Eyes

IMO herein lies a huge problem with a lot of "coaches" these days. They are more concerned with what "looks pretty" rather than how to develop high level throwing ability.

Carry on...


I agree.
I would find out what the p coaches goal is for your son, and why not work on hitting spots AND velocity. He's 16 already and his velocity should be measured, do you know his velocity?
I think that there are many p coches out there that have no clue how to help develop velocity for both LHP and RHP.

I was at a game this weekend, two top 25 teams and the velo was kind of low for everyone, even with the gun being 3 mph off. You won't see higher velo # until the weather warms up and the pitcher finds his groove.

FWIW, at many of son's college games we saw lower velo in the mid majors, and even lost by a few games due to it, but overall, good hitters adjust after a few innings and the wins were rare. Most of the lower velo pitchers also relied more on their breaking stuff.
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
Originally posted by Judy:
I'm glad this discussion took the turn it did since these are issues I am interested in. Next visit to the private coach we will ask him to measure velo so that son will have a benchmark of progress and how far he needs to go. Both the pitching coaches son has worked with (one in MA and one in NC)have been more concerned with form/location vs. velo. Interesting discussion.
My son's pitching coach is all about mechanics, location and mental approach before velocity. He said with the first three in place velocity will follow. My son's previous instructor I yanked him from placed too much emphasis on airing it out. It screwed up mechanics.

The second coach was a pro obsessed with velocity. The first coach didn't play past high school but has helped place a lot of pitchers in college ball.
J Judy10+ posts
Well, in a 30 minute lesson it's hard to work on everything. I trust this coach, he has excellent credentials and has helped son a great deal. Another LHP on son's team does not have great mechanics but throws bullets... he has had arm injuries the past two years...I saw him pitch for the first time last week. Yup, he threw hard, struck out 5 to save game, but how long will his arm hold up? He's a senior and had to sit out half of his junior season and all summer due to injury.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
It is pretty rare for a gun to be off 3 mph and pretty common for someone to believe a gun was off 3 mph. It can happen but it is pretty rare. If one gun is reading slower than other guns at a given location then you might be fairly certain it is reading low. Of course you'd use the other readings in that case.

Velocity vs Control vs Movement - Each pitcher has to determine what combination of the 3 he can achieve and work hard to reach that goal. At some point every pitcher is going to plateau on velocity and then it is certainly time to focus more on control and movement.

There might be some guidelines that most college coaches follow relative to velocity but if a pitcher has exceptional movement and/or control the "required" velocity number is going to drop a bit.

I would tend to agree that a college pitcher who can consistently work 87-88 with command and some off speed offerings is going to be able to pitch in pretty much any college league. The pitchers in the recent UCLA v. USC game were mostly throwing about 87-89 and touching 90.

Judy,
It doesn't sound to me like your son had a particularly poor outing. Wait and see what happens over the next few games before worrying about it.

IMO, you might want to start by asking his current pitching instructor about the possibility of setting up a long toss program for him to do. Be aware that if he's throwing pens at school, pitching in games and throwing pens for the pitching instructor then he's not going to have much opportunity to long toss.
Last edited by CADad
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by CADad:
It is pretty rare for a gun to be off 3 mph and pretty common for someone to believe a gun was off 3 mph. It can happen but it is pretty rare. If one gun is reading slower than other guns at a given location then you might be fairly certain it is reading low. Of course you'd use the other readings in that case.


I get a kick out of the doubt that I thought the the gun was off, it was, but I didn't have to really explain what gun, or where did I? Do you and Mr. TR think I made it up?

The reason for the comment, was because the pitcher I was watching can hit way above 90 (as some of the other pitchers too), and it was reading low, my player (who I was sitting with) made an inquiry to someone with a gun (who was sitting somewhere else) as to why his velocity might be so low. There was also the explanation that it has been very cold here in FL and the pitcher has yet to push his top velocity besides being early in the season. So we were told that we had to add 3mph for a true reading of the velocity.

Got that guys?
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Judy:
Well, in a 30 minute lesson it's hard to work on everything. I trust this coach, he has excellent credentials and has helped son a great deal. Another LHP on son's team does not have great mechanics but throws bullets... he has had arm injuries the past two years...I saw him pitch for the first time last week. Yup, he threw hard, struck out 5 to save game, but how long will his arm hold up? He's a senior and had to sit out half of his junior season and all summer due to injury.


I don't think it's fair to make those statements, you should just concentrate on what your son's progress and not worry about what others do or don't.
Shame that pitcher has issues, but in the long run, if he remains healthy through his senior year, he will be called upon because he got people out, that is the whole idea in this game.
Velocity is subjective for many, if the pitcher is getting outs, it doesn't really matter does it?
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Judy,
As far as my statement about the LHP, we are not really sure what caused his injury, poor mechanics or overuse which happens a lot when you are a hard thrower.

Don't go away, we do seem tough to many, but you will learn a lot here. And RJM is correct, better to learn it here now than later.

Hang in there, it will all work out.
Last edited by TPM
B Bear1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
This is not exactly right, but I took a quick stab at it for discussion purposes:

HS cruising speeds
80 mph, hitting spots, 20-0 record> not going anywhere
83 mph, hitting spots> not going anywhere
90 mph, missing spots> will likely go on
85 mph, hitting spots> might go on, odds are ??
85 mph, missing spots> probably not going anywhere


Sult,

What the heck are you referring to and why?

Since you have thrown sh^t over the wall,
try some back at ya:

HS sitting velo's
78-92 mph, hitting spots, not going anywhere
78-93 mph, missing spots, may likely go on


My guess is Judy's LHP was not peaking over 80+.
Probably not breaking 70+ with a lack of movement,
and unable to throw strikes with his off speed pitches. But then, she may not know!
Last edited by Bear
J Judy10+ posts
You haven't scared me away yet Smile
Bear, actually I do know these things about my son. But I sense that you are not really interested...maybe just think a "mom" can't know baseball, hmmmm?

FWIW, in case you really are interested...
Son's fastball is 75-78 (we think, hasn't been measured since Sept)...the main issue for him
Excellent changeup for strikes that gets outs
Curve for strikes that gets outs
Son has excellent movement on his off speed pitches and even a moving fastball
Unfortunately this coach wants to overpower batters with a lot of fastballs...that approach obviously won't work for my son, thus, he isn't seeing much opportunity at this point.
Thanks
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Judy:
You haven't scared me away yet Smile
Bear, actually I do know these things about my son. But I sense that you are not really interested...maybe just think a "mom" can't know baseball, hmmmm?

FWIW, in case you really are interested...
Son's fastball is 75-78 (we think, hasn't been measured since Sept)...the main issue for him
Excellent changeup for strikes that gets outs
Curve for strikes that gets outs
Son has excellent movement on his off speed pitches and even a moving fastball
Unfortunately this coach wants to overpower batters with a lot of fastballs...that approach obviously won't work for my son, thus, he isn't seeing much opportunity at this point.
Thanks


With all due respect Judy but a good hitter will face your son and make the adjustment to keep his hands back and hit the ball where he pitches it. 75 - 80 will get hit by good players regardless of movement if they see the pitcher a second time.

No offense but if your sons private coach knows he's working at 75 - 80 and hasn't said one thing about increasing velocity that should be a red flag. It is probably something he won't work on during the session but he should have him on a long toss program to do on his own. Then during the session he will work on fundamentals and mechanics.

The problem most people think is that just because they pay money for instruction it has to be right and work. Sometimes those who played at a high level are the worst teachers. They could do things naturally so they don't understand the nuances of getting that message across. Obviously I have no idea who your son's private instructor is and I'm hoping that for your son's sake he knows what he's doing.

Please don't take my post as me saying your son can't or won't be successful but he's going to have to do a whole lot more to prove he can do something than someone who throws it harder. Guys who throw harder have more room to make bad pitches and get away with them than those who throw softer. For example tonight we started our number 2 and he throws mid 80s. He didn't have his best stuff and worked really hard to give us 6 innings and only giving up 3 runs. But because he was throwing 84ish when he made a mistake it got hit hard. In fact he gave up 3 hard hits on 0 - 2 counts for base hits - that should never happen but it did. In the 7th we bring our stud in to close the game out. He has the ability to throw 92ish and tonight he was around 89 - 91. Because of that he struck out three guys and maybe 4 of 12 strikes were in the zone. The hitters expanded the zone because they couldn't make the adjustment.

I wish your son the best of luck and really hope nothing but the best for him.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
I think the coach2709 has given you some good heads up info.
If your son has been working on a regular basis with the pcoach, helping to increase his velo should be one of the things he should have addressed. Unless it's for quick fixes that's another story.
Measuring velocity at your son's age is important, whether done by his pcoach or the HS coach, this gives the player an idea of where he stands in his development. It takes a very long time to develop velocity, even for small increases. Unless the pcoach feels he has peaked, you should be discussing this with him and not us. Perhaps the HS coach has some valid reasons why he wants to work with your son, perhaps he hasn't seen the progress he should working with someone. As coach mentioned be wary of who wants to take your money, and IMO too, former pro guys don't always make the best instructors. Change ups and curves should be compliments to a pitchers FB, sounds like these are your sons first line of defense

As far as leaving your son in to work things out, like you feel that he should have,as a starter, I find that many coaches don't win because they don't know how to use their pitching staff. Sounds to me like your son may have more success coming in for relief after the higher velo guys, his lower velo may keep them off balance for an inning or two mixing up his two other pitches as well. In HS after 5-6 innings of throwing 90+ the next guy who came in after son couldn't get over 80, and he became the closer, he really did a number on those guys heads for an inning or two, not much more than that as they could adjust after more than that.

I understand why players and parents get discouraged, sometimes it's as simple as using your players in the right way. JMO.
S sandlotmom100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by jmom:
I have been following this conversation, and find it interesting. As a mother, do you think there is never a situation you could talk to a coach?


I see you are new to HSBW. Welcome! The question you asked is a great question. We've had many discussions on this very topic. Most old timers will tell you that parents should NOT talk to coaches. And for good reason, but much too long an explanation to embed here in this thread. Try using the "Find" button at the top of the forum and searching on "Talk to coach". You'll find a lot of great advice there about parents talking to coaches and players talking to coaches, when it's right and when it's a nono. Basically, parents should only talk to the coach when there is a safety or health issue.
Last edited by sandlotmom
J Judy10+ posts
I appreciate the input of those who have been doing this for a long time. I don't know if pitching coach is good...just that he is good with son and son has made progress with him. As for working on the velocity...I get that, son gets it. We will have pc measure it in 2 weeks and see where he is. It may never come. Son is a late bloomer in general, so we shall see. He's been effective in the past as a lower velo guy and what he's struggling with this year is that he isn't being given an opportunity to see if that holds true. He spoke with coach yesterday and he said he might give him an inning or two tonight. It seems that son's pitching style and coach's preferences are not aligned. Thanks to advice from here we are keeping quiet unless asked, and letting son handle it with coach as he sees fit and though it's tough for us as parents it's all part of the process.
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
FWIW I know who the pitching coach is and he is a good one--one of our pitchers, who was a LHP and threw similar to Judy's son, went to him when he was in HS and this boy was from MA. The boy ended up going to Barton and had a fine college career. In fact the boy pitched with us in Jupiter and was part of nohitter we threw against a top ranked Texas team in the event. His junk had the free swinging Texas kids coming out of their shoes when they swung

Judy's son will be fine as he goes down the road toward college---the team he plays with in the summer and fall will be the difference especially if the boys grades are solid and they are. If he throws strikes and has good location I know a load of college programs that will be glad to have him.
J Judy10+ posts
The saga continues....
On Monday the coach told son he would try to give him a chance in Tues game. It was a close one and that didn't work out...that was fine with son, he understood. He spoke to coach on Wed and asked him to watch his bullpen...coach came over, but watched and interacted with another pitcher who was also throwing. After, he told son he needs to prove himself and convince him he can pitch. On Thurs, son asked coach if he would get a chance to pitch on Fri...coach said he'd give him an inning, even though he said "I told player X I was going to put you in tomorrow and he said 'really?'". So, score is 6-0 in our favor, 6th inning coach puts in the catcher to pitch, then puts in the closer for the 7th. During the 7th inning my husband heard the coach tell son "you want to bat? never mind player x go in"...son was the only player on the team to not step on the field tonight. It is just so demoralizing and hard not to see it as personal. Coach cannot give clear way son can "prove himself" without stepping on the mound. I have never seen this kid so dispirited...I wonder about a coach who is basically a bully, sets up a catch 22 so son can never meet his expectations, pretends he's going to give him a chance and then "oops, not you". Is this acceptable behavior? If son is never going to get a chance, I'd rather he just cut him loose...this constant hope and failure without opportunity is incredibly difficult to watch without saying anything. We are thinking about son asking for mound time on the JV team just to get some opportunity to pitch. Is that ridiculous? This guy is poison.
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
It is just so demoralizing and hard not to see it as personal.

IMHO, it is not personal although it is understandable that from a parent's perspective it seems that way.

Judy - imho, the coach has made his decision - for now - about your son and that is not for any playing time. I would not pressure the coach for an answer of "When will I play?" My take has always been that the coach speaks his true feelings with the lineup card. I believe the player should use his actions to speak to the coach and that is probably different advice that many would give you here.

What to do? For starters, I can feel your pain. The pain of not playing this high school season can be erased by his playing this summer where there will be many more games involved. Moreover, I believe the way he combats the catch22 situation is with attitude. Sheer attitude and force of will. Your son from now on will refuse to be controlled by something out of his control. He will take the high road. Encourage him. Encourage him to let the hard feelings go. Encourage him to be the bigger man. Encourage him to let go of all expectations so that he can no longer have his feelings hurt. Encourage him to lose the long face and the hurt puppy-dog looks when the coach does not call his name. Encourage him that his self-worth is not defined by what that coach thinks but by what God and he thinks. God made him perfect and encourage him that way. Encourage him to be the best teammate. Be the guy who does all the team dirty work. Be the guy who picks everyone else up and expects nothing in return. Be the guy who will do whatever it takes to be the bigger man no matter how poorly that coach treats him. Be the humble one without expectation. Encourage him this way so he can be liberated from these feelings.

When he sees that he can contribute to that team no matter how poorly he is treated then he will have learned the ultimate lesson. He will have let go of his chains and he will have broken the cycle. He will have broken the catch22. Encourage him and magical things can happen. Worse case this summer but presently in his mind because he will know that he can overcome and that no other human being can control his emotions or more importantly his self-worth.
Last edited by ClevelandDad
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Judy:
2nd issue...coach was offended when he found out that son was seeing a private pitching coach...son was doing very poorly in fall workouts and coach wanted to "start over" with teaching son to pitch. Son had one workout with the private coach and the problem was solved. The private lesson was scheduled before that, but coach was angry and didn't want to know feedback from private coach.


I think this may be where the problem lies, teh coach offered to help your son and he let it be known that he had a pitching coach. I don't agree with the way he's acting but if this guy has a huge ego, then he's decided that your son isn't going to play because he didn't want his help.
FWIW, this is a huge lesson I hope that parents reading will learn, the pitching lessons are ok, never let your current coach know that you are working with someone else. Accept the current coaches help and say nothing, get up on the mound or in teh batters box and do yor job, if you get outs or produce runs, coaches in the end don't care who taught you.
CD has given you good advice for your son to follow.
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
Judy,

Lots of coaches are poison. Thats part of the game and the challenge - at all levels.

My eldest son was jerked around for 2 years. He never got dispirited - he just got more angry and more focused and jumped on the next opportunity to escape his situation.

My youngest son is now in the same position. The coach puts him in the game in the top or bottom of the ninth with 15 and 20 run leads. The message is simple - Coach wants him gone. He can either get dispirited and quit the game - or do like his older brother - and jump on the next opportunity that he finds.

IMO - One thing shouldnt happen (baring concerns about injury or safety) - and that is Mommy or Daddy speaking to the Coach.

Mommy and Daddy should stay in the stands - cheer the team on until the game is over - and then go home.

Good luck.

Wink
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
itsinthegame nailed this one. As a player you have choices to make. You can feel sorry for yourself. You can lose confidence in your ability to actually play. You can whine and pout and look for excuses. Or you can continue to work your butt off. Keep a positive attitude. And if you not given an opportunity to show what you can do go somewhere where you will.

But its on the player not the parent or parents. Support your kid and listen to them. And pull for his team. Outside of that its on the player to do what he has to do.
J Judy10+ posts
Thanks guys. I post here so that I can vent and not reflect my true feelings to my son, the other parents in the stands, the coach. We are great team supporters and happily cheer on the other kids. We won't speak to the coach. My problem with this is that it feels like condoning the actions of a bully. Burying our feelings and asking son to bury his feelings is like swallowing the Kool Aid. It poisons the soul...I know it's what we have to do, but I hate it.
Coach WaltripCoach Waltrip100+ posts
Hi Judy,

Welcome to the HSBBW...

I want to add a couple of things that as a coach and a parent with a kid playing JV that I think are important.

I cannot emphasize this point anymore than this...Please do not let your son know how you and your husband feel about the coach. It will not help him get more innings or to increase his performance. If you and your husband have already aired it out in front of your son it's now essential (for your son) you shift gears.

You, your husband, son and an act of Congress is not going to change the coach and how he is handling this situation. You have absolutely zero control...so why not change the things you can?

As hard as it may seem avoid negative statements about the coach and program. Instead, focus helping your son increase his pitching ability by encouraging a good work ethic, proper coaching, increasing velocity through good mechanics and maintaining a good diet.

Let him know that he his day will come as long as he works hard and maintains a good attitude about himself, the coach and his team. I know how hard this is because I have lived through this more than once, but it can be done. If you do not want your son's HS BB career to end prematurely through a discouraged spirit, a new direction is needed...it is not too late.

Remember, all you can only control is what you can control...
Last edited by Coach Waltrip
Coach WaltripCoach Waltrip100+ posts
No, that is very funny!!! Ya got a point there...

Yup, unfortunately I'm in the right seat...with economy as it is I've been designated as a PFO...Professional First Officer...LOL!!!

Since positions are based upon senority, I'm just glad to have a job since many have been furloughed here at Trans Tempe Airline...Also, many guys have been downgraded from Captain to F/O and have taken the associated financial hit...again, in this environment, happy to still be flying
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
again, in this environment, happy to still be flying

You better believe it! Just having a little fun as being a pilot (left or right) is an honored profession.

I heard Jay Leno or someone tell this a few years ago....

You know how many people have resolved the inevitable end to their lives by saying something like "You know, when it is your time to go, it is your time to go!"

What do you do however when it is the pilot's time to go? Eek
zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
quote:
I want to add a couple of things that as a coach and a parent with a kid playing JV that I think are important.

I cannot emphasize this point anymore than this...Please do not let your son know how you and your husband feel about the coach. It will not help him get more innings or to increase his performance. If you and your husband have already aired it out in front of your son it's now essential (for your son) you shift gears.

You, your husband, son and an act of Congress is not going to change the coach and how he is handling this situation. You have absolutely zero control...so why not change the things you can?


This is excellent advise. As a parent of a former HS ballplayer that can relate to this, who had to bust his tail and pay his dues for a good year and a half on JV and finally get a mid season call to varsity his junior year, he was shaking his head on why he didn't get his shot earlier considering he had the tools, did all the right things, had a great attitude and hustled all the time. I used to get the comments from varsity parents and former coaches and people who knew him on how the coach doesn't take notice and get him in the starting lineup since he was such a good hitter and the varsity needed offense. While the comments were flattering, it really didn't mean much unless my son got through to the varsity coach that he should be playing.

Sometimes coaches just have their pets and can't see past that and some players have to work harder than others to get their shot.

All the time, I had to sit back and let my son deal with it. He thought about quitting but being he was their top JV player and wasn't riding the bench like most of the juniors already on varsity were doing, he felt the playing time kept him sharp. He wasn't to concerned on beating up JV pitching because he knew if he faced varsity pitching, he would have little trouble including hitting against varsity pitching including the D1 commits in the conference. He played against some of them in travel anyway. He was frustrated but he knew the only way to get the coach's attention was to outhit the competition when he got his opportunity and make the coach look like a knucklehead for ignoring his skills too long.

While he got limited opportunity his junior year on varsity, he did show he can play but it was pre-season the following season where he finally got the varsity coach's attention with his bat, by hitting top-of-the rotation pitchers hard in the preseason scrimmages, whether he made outs or hits, hustle and defensive play that he could no longer be ignored by opening day of the regular season. He ended up an everyday player who hit third on the varsity. So while his time was relatively short, he did what he had to do to become a key player on varsity. To the coach's credit, he did finally give him his shot and he took advantage of it.

In their conference tournament, he stepped up his game even further by hitting .500, led the team in RBIs, a heads-up baserunning play which scored a winning run and making a couple of big defensive plays in the tournament making an improbable run that helped them to get to one strike from making the quarterfinal round. This in part is why the coach missed the boat on him but what's done is done and that ship has long sailed.


As a parent, there's nothing you can do as for how the coach runs his team on the field. Even though there are inequities from player to player, ultimately, it's up to the player to do what he's gotta do no matter how hard it is to watch.
Last edited by zombywoof
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
Talk about timing. This morning - my youngest son calls and says he's headed to Aiken SC. Another long trip - watching from the bench for a doubleheader.

He says - "Maybe - if I'm lucky - this A-hole of a coach will let me get 1 at bat today".

I said - if you do - get the first pitch that is anywhere near the plate - and swing like there is no tomorrow.

So - what happens - the coach for some ungodly reason - puts him in the 4th inning.

He gets up - first pitch - off the top of the centerfield wall.

I just wish it had the potential of being an inside the parker - so he could run the coach over as he rounded third base. LOL
Next

Add Reply

Post
.

Membership Required

We're sorry. You must be signed in to continue. Sign In or Register
×
Are you sure you want to remove from your Block List?
×
Loading...
×
When you block a person, they can no longer invite you to a private message or post to your profile wall. Replies and comments they make will be collapsed/hidden by default. Finally, you'll never receive email notifications about content they create or likes they designate for your content.
Note: if you proceed, you will no longer be following .
×
Advanced Search
Advanced Search
Link copied to your clipboard.
×