Help with HS Freshman Swing

My advice to you as living through high school ball my freshman year wtih not being a power hitter at all. I was probably the same size as your son. What made me a succesful hitter to earn my spot on varsity was that i knew my job. My job wasn't to try and hit homeruns or shots in the gap. I simply knew that if there was a runner on first my job was to get him over any way possible. As young as he is you can't really teach power in a kids swing. If he just keeps working being able to the the ball where he wants for ex. ( with a runner on second being able to hit the ball to the right side of the field to move him over) a coach would rather have someone that is able to do that than hti the ball 300 feet in the air for an out. As your son gets older and with the conditioning at school and hitting the weight room during off season that is when is power will develope. If he just keeps working hard and keeps his head up nothing should be able to stop him. As for advice on the hitting video. Your sons swing looks really compact, nice, and smooth just watch his front foot to make sure he isn't putting to much weight on it. Other than that all i have to say is i hope your son has a great season and enjoys his high school experience.

Vols, bad advice....

Cutter, there's no stretch in his swing.....Absolutely none...No stretch means no momentum and no power....He is dead-hands swinging....

Read this thread....

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8291034941/m/5511002603

Then, learn to load like this in the swing....

Actually, Vols advice ain't that bad. At 135 lbs. and 14 yr old your son isn't going to knock down the fence no matter how much stretch his swing has. Can his swing improve...of course but as he gets stronger the power will come and he will make swing changes. Right now he has to make the team and hitting line drives wins games at all levels.

Dead hands...somewhat but watch alot of the old timers and you will see similar things going on. Back then alot of guys preached being "quiet" at the plate with little prelimanary movement. Williams, Kaline, Musial,Dimaggio, Mantle and several more were very "quiet" hitters compared to the theatrics some MLB hitters do today....difference is the old guys didn't struck out like today's players. Ortiz and Howard wouldn't have had a chance to even get to the plate....they probably wouldn't have made it out of the minors. Your son needs to focus on solid contact and line drives...and hitting the weights.

Don't let your son get hung up on seeing the 200 lb kids hitting bombs because right now that is not your son's game. Focus on playing his game at well as he can.

Looking at the video, your son appears to be over rotating before contact, thus swinging his arms in a circular motion, instead of a linear line to the ball and thru it with extension.


Previous Post:
IMHO - The majority of big league hitters utilize a rotational swing. The key to hitting for a higher average with power is the ability to implement the hands in a linear plane with the rotation of your feet, hips and shoulders.

My son had a linear type swing thru high school. Although he was All State and played college ball D3. The lack of power that this swing produced, ultimely cost him the chance to play at a higher level (D1 or D2). After him working with Rudy Jaramillo (Tx Rangers) once, and Dave Hudgins who was with the Oakland A's at the time and currently with the Clevland Indians at a 2 day camp. Only then did he/I start to fully understand the mechanics of the swing. He was All Conference his Junior year and actually had an offer from a D1 school after that year. Having to sit out for a year was not really an option. But it was an offer still the same.

Dave Hudgins has a set of DVD's out, called. Hitting for Excellence. http://www.hitting.com/index.asp

After your load. If you are Hands first, it is a linear type of approach i.e. aluminium bat swing, power is greatly diminshed. The hands need to fire at the same time as the back heel turns to contact and thru extension. Your rear toe should be pointed in the direction that you should drive the ball in relation to pitch location at full extension. Thus at contact point the lower end works in conjunction with the upper end, allowing you to stay behind the ball. Listed below are rough estimates. There will be slight variations with all hitters.

Stance-weight balanced 50/50
Load-weight either 20/80 or 30/70
Contact point 50/50
extension 60/40

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Looking at the video, your son appears to be over rotating before contact, thus swinging his arms in a circular motion, instead of a linear line to the ball and thru it with extension.

OldSchool- you want his arms/hands linear instead of circular? You want him to hit to the ball and thru it with extension?

If so, I would say that is awful advice. JMO

Question for Diablo and OldSchool,

What direction would you say this hitter's hands and arms are going in this swing? I would say they have to be moving in a linear path to and through the ball since they don't move forward from frame 1 to frame 7.






[/QUOTE]

Thank You, Powertoallfields

Hands coming forward inside the ball, elbow tight and barrell close to the shoulder for as long as possibel.Lower end rotating with his weight and head staying back until contact. Firm front side, this swing should generate very good power as long as the barrell stays up at contact. Without being able to see the feet, the swing almost looks like a Skip Bertman's desciple. Where the back foot is almost off the ground at contact. Not sure from the pics though, can not tell the pitch looks to be in, so that would explain why the future contact point looks to be out front.

It appears to me he's not keeping his weight back. His weight transfer is too early. It also appears he's getting his hands out in front. They should be more inside his swing.

Power is not about size and strength. Power is about proper mechanics and bat speed. Being big is only one way to creat bat speed. A smaller player can generate bat speed with quickness.

Hitting isn't about keeping it simple. Hitting is about being fundamentally sound. A hitter may have a new stance every year. But that's just for preparing to load. Once he loads he should be doing the same thing.

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Originally posted by Old School79:
Thank You, Powertoallfields

Hands coming forward inside the ball, elbow tight and barrell close to the shoulder for as long as possibel.Lower end rotating with his weight and head staying back until contact. Firm front side, this swing should generate very good power as long as the barrell stays up at contact. Without being able to see the feet, the swing almost looks like a Skip Bertman's desciple. Where the back foot is almost off the ground at contact. Not sure from the pics though, can not tell the pitch looks to be in, so that would explain why the future contact point looks to be out front.

You can actually see the ball in frame 7. Why do you say the barrel needs to stay up?

QUOTE] You can actually see the ball in frame 7. Why do you say the barrel needs to stay up?[ [/QUOTE]


IMHO - Barrell up at contact. The only way to backspin this pitch if it is a fastball.

"From what I project as pitch location" up and possibly in. As you say, I can only see the ball in one of the 7 frames.

The ball appears to be up, unless it is a curve or slider, the next few frames would be helpful from a tracking standpoint.

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Originally posted by Old School79:
QUOTE] You can actually see the ball in frame 7. Why do you say the barrel needs to stay up?[

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IMHO - Barrell up at contact. The only way to backspin this pitch if it is a fastball.

"From what I project as pitch location" up and possibly in. As you say, I can only see the ball in one of the 7 frames.

The ball appears to be up, unless it is a curve or slider, the next few frames would be helpful from a tracking standpoint.

Please explain "backspinning a ball." Technique to do it. Drills coached to do it.

IMO, no need to backspin this ball. It's meat! Honestly, I don't see the need to backspin any pitch. If you hit it on the sweetspot, it will go.

Backspin is termonolgy, to me. Meaning being able to keep the barrell above the ball at contact, on certain pitches. Thus allowing the back shoulder to come thru on extension. The hands need to be able to extend thru the ball, after contact. Something that is very difficult to do, if you do not keep the barrell up on pitches above the belt. JMO

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Meaning being able to keep the barrell above the ball at contact

Barrel above the ball??? Wouldn't that be missing the ball? Keeping the front elbow up on pitches up is the way to hit pitches up.

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Originally posted by powertoallfields:

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Meaning being able to keep the barrell above the ball at contact

Barrel above the ball??? Wouldn't that be missing the ball? Keeping the front elbow up on pitches up is the way to hit pitches up.

We're thinking along the same lines. If you (Old School79) suggest that you want backspin and now you're keeping the barrel above the ball, I just don't see it. T. Williams talked about matching the plane of the pitch with the swing plane. I think that is sound advice. See video below of this concept albeit it this is a check swing:


Video on your concept? We're big on this site with having posters back their position via video. It'd be appreciated in this case. BTW, I've always wondered about the concept of being so good (hs or amature hitter) that you can produce backspin when you desire it. I'm positive that the stats are available of exactly where on the ball the bat needs to strike it for optimum back spin. I'm equally positive that within the time constraints, most hitters can hit a ball in that time frame with the intent to create backspin. Most can barely make contact. Then I further suggest that if you're that good and can do that in such a limited time frame, you're on your way to MLB and will win a few batting titles. Finally, in another thread, you mentioned that you don't believe that the golf swing and the baseball swing are comparable. ???

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BTW, I've always wondered about the concept of being so good (hs or amature hitter) that you can produce backspin when you desire it. I'm positive that the stats are available of exactly where on the ball the bat needs to strike it for optimum back spin. I'm equally positive that within the time constraints, most hitters can hit a ball in that time frame with the intent to create backspin.

Coach,

I agree! This is the big flaw, IMO, of swinging down on the ball to create backspin philosophy. Too many breaking pitches going down in the upper levels to swing down and be successful.

QUOTE] Barrel above the ball??? Wouldn't that be missing the ball? Keeping the front elbow up on pitches up is the way to hit pitches up. [/QUOTE]

Missing the ball? Jeez, I thought this was a hitting thread.

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Please explain "backspinning a ball." Technique to do it. Drills coached to do it.

Nothing more than hitting off a tee. Tommy Hernandez demonstrated at a coaches clinic at Arc Park in the late 90's that I attended. When you hit off a tee. Simply place the ball where thin seams "2-seams" face outward and very slightly upward toward the hitter. The idea is to strike between the thin seams at a ever so slight downward angle go thru the baseball and come out in the middle of the round seams on the backside. Thus never touching any seam on the ball until you come out on the backside.......It's all hypothetical, but we have found thru the years that it gives young hitters a concept of how to hit off a tee, stay inside the ball and not touch the tee itself.

Backspin might be the wrong termonology for what I'm trying to say. Not sure. To me this is the most effective way to hit pitches up in the zone, generally letters to just below the belt. I'm not a big believer in the "Giambi swing" hitting the bottom of the ball on pitches up. It is very effective for certain type hitters...The bigger guys it seems..........I also feel that produces more strikeouts.

We play quit a bit of wood bat events. It seems that when hitters drop their top hand before contact on balls up, they usually end up with a duck **** pop up. Metal bats seem to generate this type swing, I feel it allows younger hitters success, from being able to flip the ball over infielders head. This does not work very well with Wood Bats. I agree with being on plane, to me that is basically what I'm talking about when I say "barrell up".

None of this really matters, if the hitter cannot gain extension and get his backside thru the ball

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Keeping the front elbow up on pitches up is the way to hit pitches up.

powertoallfields.

powertoallfields? Now your saying that you want to chicken wing the high pitch?

Maybe anything above the hands? But why would you swing at that pitch, unless it the hanger that just stays there. Sounds to me more like a softball swing.

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Coach,

I agree! This is the big flaw, IMO, of swinging down on the ball to create backspin philosophy. Too many breaking pitches going down in the upper levels to swing down and be successful.

A good hitter has to develop the ability, to recognize pitches down in the zone and drop the barrell on them, JMHO.

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CoachB25 = Darrell Butler

We're thinking along the same lines. If you (Old School79) suggest that you want backspin and now you're keeping the barrel above the ball, I just don't see it. T. Williams talked about matching the plane of the pitch with the swing plane. I think that is sound advice. See video below of this concept albeit it this is a check swing:




Coach, this is a good video, as far as pitch recognition, although he recognized late or it was early in the count. Either way his barrell appears to stay up and by his back shoulder until the last possible second. Also, you see the hitters front elbow up, where it ideally should be at full extension after contact. Generally a late sign from the hitter, showing you that he was "beat on the pitch".

Old School79, please describe your concept of "extension" as it applies to the following:



Also, if you don't mind, in another thread, you mentioned 60-40 weight shift. What is your perception of this weight shift?

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powertoallfields? Now your saying that you want to chicken wing the high pitch?

Maybe anything above the hands? But why would you swing at that pitch, unless it the hanger that just stays there.

Mike Epstein calls it weather vaneing. You just keep the front elbow at ball heighth throughout the swing and finish. 2 strikes would be the time to swing at this pitch if it's a borderline strike. Actually, a very easy pitch to go oppo for a line drive over the infielders. Wade Boggs was very good at this skill.

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The idea is to strike between the thin seams at a ever so slight downward angle go thru the baseball

OldSchool- so if I gave you a fungo bat at home plate and said drive this ball to the gap or drop a bomb, you would throw the ball up and swing down on it?

Better yet, if the ball was sitting on a tee and I asked you to hit a gap shot or drop a bomb, you would swing down on it?

Why not hit it on a slight upslope and try and it the baseball (sphere) in the middle? If you miss hit it (which you will) from dead center, it will have either backspin or topspin... but why not try and transfer ALL momentum into baseball instead of trying to clip the ball to give it more spin?

Notice the barrell slightly up.......The ability for Pujols to get the back shoulder thru the ball from this point. To keep palm up/palm down, until arms fully extend. It is said that the great hitters have the ability to keep the barrell on the ball from contact thru extension.

Although, his weight has already transfered to the outside of his front foot a little early for what you like to see in young hitters. He's still able to stay behind the ball and, hit against a firm front side, after all he is one of the greatest hitters to ever play the game.

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OldSchool- so if I gave you a fungo bat at home plate and said drive this ball to the gap or drop a bomb, you would throw the ball up and swing down on it?

Better yet, if the ball was sitting on a tee and I asked you to hit a gap shot or drop a bomb, you would swing down on it?

Why not hit it on a slight upslope and try and it the baseball (sphere) in the middle? If you miss hit it (which you will) from dead center, it will have either backspin or topspin... but why not try and transfer ALL momentum into baseball instead of trying to clip the ball to give it more spin?

Fungo or tee, I try to hit the ball as Tommy showed us in the drill. I'm not trying to clip it, I'm basically try to keep the barrell up until after contact, the barrell will stay on line, and be under the ball at extension as the back shoulder comes thru the ball. Now if I was trying to jack a home run in either situation, I'm not real big. I would try to hit the bottom of the ball from a tee or tossing the ball up. Now remember we were talking fastballs up. The pitchers velocity will help you elevate the ball, along with proper swing mechanics.

Teaching young hitters to hit the bottom of the ball at contact point is not condusive to creating a good swing on most pitches. Now will some of them develop it as they get older and mature, without a doubt, and many will be successful. It just not what we teach

quote:

Originally posted by Old School79:
Notice the barrell slightly up.......The ability for Pujols to get the back shoulder thru the ball from this point. To keep palm up/palm down, until arms fully extend. It is said that the great hitters have the ability to keep the barrell on the ball from contact thru extension.

Old School, I'm trying to stay with you here. You see the barrel "slightly up" and do you see full arm extension?

BTW, many are familiar with this pic. It is a home run to straight away left center field.

Edited to add:

I've looked all around and I can't seem to find a gramelin of a shark. However, I have a sense of fresh chum in the water. In the old days...

I agree again. The barrel above the ball or hands is going to create ground balls or line drives depending on the pitch if struck solid.

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Old School, I'm trying to stay with you here. You see the barrel "slightly up" and do you see full arm extension?

Full arm extension, not yet. However, you do see very good connection with his back elbow and his hip at contact, seeing this would lead me to believe that the swing will finish with full extension.


powertoallfields

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I agree again. The barrel above the ball or hands is going to create ground balls or line drives depending on the pitch if struck solid.

Is this not what you want to teach hitters to do?
Hard ground balls and line drives. As they get older the line drives seem to have a better chance of getting into the gaps and over the fence

quote:

Originally posted by Old School79:

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Old School, I'm trying to stay with you here. You see the barrel "slightly up" and do you see full arm extension?

Full arm extension, not yet. However, you do see very good connection with his back elbow and his hip at contact, seeing this would lead me to believe that the swing will finish with full extension.


powertoallfields

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I agree again. The barrel above the ball or hands is going to create ground balls or line drives depending on the pitch if struck solid.

Is this not what you want to teach hitters to do?
Hard ground balls and line drives. As they get older the line drives seem to have a better chance of getting into the gaps and over the fence

No, I don't teach kids to hit ground balls. I teach to swing on the plane of the pitch and hopefully to hit with power to all fields. If later in their careers they aren't big enough or strong enough to hit the ball out of the park, then they can learn to level off the swing and keep their hands high. The later is a much easier change, IMO.

I would never teach a kid to swing down, because if he had good eye/hand coordination and hit the ball solid every time (right in the middle of ball) he would hit ground ball, after ground ball, after ground ball..... as kids get older defenders get better... stronger arms, more accurate throws, better lateral movement... which means more outs...

you don't have to be a "HR King" to swing in a rotational fashion... or to match planes... its about matching planes and hitting line drives... hitting the ball with consistent hard contact...

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It is said that the great hitters have the ability to keep the barrell on the ball from contact thru extension.

what the heck??? we are not playing lacrosse.. the ball is probably in contact with the bat for about 1/30 of a second...

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what the heck??? we are not playing lacrosse.. the ball is probably in contact with the bat for about 1/30 of a second...

About the same amount of time it takes a great hitter to go from contact point to full extension.

Edited; mistake in posting clip.

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Originally posted by Diablo con Huevos:

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It is said that the great hitters have the ability to keep the barrell on the ball from contact thru extension.

what the heck??? we are not playing lacrosse.. the ball is probably in contact with the bat for about 1/30 of a second...

There is no arguement in my mind, that the bat can impart spin on the ball and that the bat being swung in a certain way can enhance the odds of creating that spin. The problem I have with the concept is that it would be more consistent than trying to match the plane and hitting the ball solidly. It is also inconceiveable to think that it could be even remotely successful in hitting a pitch that was moving downward.

QUOTE] There is no arguement in my mind, that the bat can impart spin on the ball and that the bat being swung in a certain way can enhance the odds of creating that spin. The problem I have with the concept is that it would be more consistent than trying to match the plane and hitting the ball solidly. It is also inconceiveable to think that it could be even remotely successful in hitting a pitch that was moving downward[ [/QUOTE]

powertoallfields, I disagree. Just last night, during hitting lessons. One of my 12 year olds was struggling with the concept. Big, burly kid. He had been previously taught to hit the bottom of the ball. Long loopey swing. This is the second week that he had come in for instruction.

Last week he struggled quit abit, when he had finished his session,,,he did not have a smile on his face. This week there were two of my 15 year olds there. These guys have been drilled in the concept for 2 years. In other words: They have a pretty good idea......The big 12 yr old, felt like he did not have any power with the change in hand path. My older boys told him to stick with it, the feel of power will come, as you learn the muscle memory of the hand path. These statement alone did as much good as any drill that could have been implemented at the time.

Why is this? Mental feedback is my only explanation.
He had the benefit of watching the two older boys work. Line drive after line drive, yes there was the occasional hard ground ball, but what he saw was consistancy in both of their swings. That he could not come close to matching. He hunkered down and started doing the contact shoth extension drill correctly. In the matteer of the last 30 minutes of the workout, he learned to keep the barrell up, (or on plane, if you prefer). The back hip was "driving down instead of up" with his newfound swing, and most importantly the ball was jumping off his bat to all fields.

Afterwards, with the biggest smile that a 12 year old could muster. He said, Thanks, coach. When asking what he learned, He told me that he could hit the ball all over the field with power, when he focused on keeping the barrell above the ball until contact.

As explained in an earlier post concerning the backspin concept...Tommy Hernandez showed me the technique back in the mid 90's. His Dallas Tigers program was rated just a couple of weeks ago as............One of the top five college development programs in the country (CDP). I think we would both agree that Tommy has a pretty good idea on how to teach hitters...?

Old School79, are you familiar with Dr. Adair's stuff as well as the research on backspin and the criteria for effective backspin? Also, are you familiar with the concept that eyes can't track a ball until contact? I believe the word most use is that the brain "extrapolates" the flight of the ball for the last few feet. I know that Bluedog has some interesting information on this subject. I'm not familiar with Mr. Hernandez but I'm certain he's a great coach. I've read the website prior to this response.

Point being we all have beliefs we've obtained. Few posting here are the arm chair type. Many posters here, including myself have coached more than a handful of players that have played professionally and a few that have made it to the bigs.

Ok, so follow along with me, I am familiar with Mr. Adair, the study of Mr. Sawicki and Mr. Hubbarda and a few practical experiences. For example, I know that to create optimum backspin on a ball, one has to undercut the ball by EXACTLY 2.65 cm on an upward angle of 0.1594 rad. What the heck that means is ever so slightly below center. ;-) I know Mr. Adair discussed:



I know that it is impossible for the eye to track the ball during the entire flight of the ball. Many, if not most also state that it is impossible to actually see the ball at contact. I think some posters once cited a study to that effect along with the famous picture of Bonds mashing a baseball while his eyes were elsewhere. So, in the milliseconds of reaction time once a hitter has committed to the swing (25 milliseconds) you're stating that you are training players as young as 12 to be able to hit that 2.65 cm on an upward angle of 0.1594 rad. Ted Williams said, "I think without question the hardest single thing to do in sport is to hit a baseball." So, I find that teaching any other concept but hitting the ball square results in negative outcomes for hitters. I'd love to see one of your hitting lessons.

Old School, you might wanna go to a new school....

CoachB25, Never at any time was not hitting the ball square discussed, when you execute the tee drill as discussed, and you take the barrel thru the center of the ball from contact thru extension, HOW IS THAT NOT SQUARE?

The bat upward angle on the illustration is created by the pitch being DOWN. Please remember this conversation started out on a fastball up in the zone, not a pitch that you have to drop the barrel on as in the illustration.

Your more than welcome to come to one of our sessions. It might help you get the concept. One of my coaches was a JUCO All American and played at NW LA for current Alabama head coach Jim Wells. Before being drafted, and coaching at D1 UTA for 8 years. He said he'd be more than happy to demonstrate how easy it is to backspin a ball with the barrel up for you.

I not sure what the: Englishbey or Richard methoid is in the other thread, where YHF is hammering you. Nor do I care.

I've seen Englishbey website. Looks like his barrel is up at contact, along with his top hand, if it was attached to the bat.
I teach the same mechanics that Dave Hudgins teaches. He's the hitting coach of the Indians....What current MLB team is Englishbey hitting instructor at, or has ever been?



Blue,
Out of all the posts of yours that I have read. I don't remember anything ever been said that I would choose to remember, enough said.

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Blue,
Out of all the posts of yours that I have read. I don't remember anything ever been said that I would choose to remember, enough said.

Thank you so much for saying that....

CoachB25, what's amazing is that me and you have differing views on what great hitters do, then, you got this guy Old School with an even different view....Ya gotta love it....

Your welcome.

Could it be that we are, All Right to a degree, every hitter is different to a certain extent. Agreed?

Why should it be so hard to comprehend that training techniques would differ, from instructor to instructor, and region to region, The end barometer is the success of the player, we currently have 26 players playing college ball, 9 at D1, , 4 others on current MLB or Minor league rosters, at least 2 or 3 more if all goes well and they stay healthy will be drafted in 09.

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Could it be that we are, All Right to a degree, every hitter is different to a certain extent. Agreed?

Nah...Somebody is wrong.....