Help with Motivation

I can feel your pain.  Your are in a tough spot.  But, remember, in the end, it will be their decision as to what path they choose to travel.  My oldest, no prob, baseball all the way.  Middle son, was in the same grey area as you described.  I was not sure if he would stick with baseball.  Has all the talent and size, but not exactly motivated.  Fortunately something clicked last year when he was in 8th grade and things changed, he was suddenly motivated after a few of the kids he had played with the year before made JV, and he knew he could out play them. It also did not hurt that his older brother started pushing him.  I've seen a lot of kids burn out around that age, girls, x box, etc...  That's when you have to ask the toughest question of all....WHO really wants it, you or him.  you can only do so much for him.  Maybe you could drop the hammer on the x-box, limit the time to an hr a night.  Then maybe you can ad some incentive time if he puts in the extra work like t-work, or soft toss.  I had to do that with mine for a little while.  Plus, you need to let him know that his HS season is a lot less than 14 months away, it is more like 7 mo's...the HS team should run a summer program and it is a good idea for incoming freshman to participate, get their face in front of the coaches and get to know them a little.

 

Good luck

During the school year unlimited X-Box on Saturday and Sunday mornings before 9am only.  Access outside of those times is earned (grades, homework, athletic work, band instrument practice time, etc.)

It seems to me your son is telling you he loves basketball and doesn't so much love baseball at this point.  I'm sure you wouldn't want to damage your relationship with him just to push him into possibly being a HS athlete in a sport he's not wild about. If he's willing to go to practices and to play, I'd pull back on being the "bad guy" and let his coaches and peers put the pressure on him to step up and do the extra work. Maybe his love of the sport will grow, particularly after basketball season is over!

 

As far as the xbox obsession, my youngest son is in a similar place...not all that interested in working hard at sports (like his older siblings have) but very interested in gaming/computers.  We separated the two issues: required him to do something active (either a team or individual sport) and limited "screen" time. Both requirements keep his overall health/development a priority but keep our personal judgements and hopes out of it (rest of family is super competitive and sports-centric, which is likely the source of his disinterest).

 

Good luck and enjoy your son...as I'm sure you're well aware, they grow up too fast!

Golfman25,

 

My two cents...I've been through 3 baseball sons.  They are all different, and had different tolerances for baseball.  Your son is in 8th grade now, and making more choices than you probably realize.  He is growing up, and trying new things.   Let him choose his activities when he earns those activities through his grades and actions. Young adults need mental stimulation in different forms, and sometimes they get tired of specific sports that are not in season.  If he is getting good grades, and not a behavioral problem let him do his thing.  JMO.

 

I've talked to a bunch of baseball parents today at a camp/showcase.   Every parent mentioned their kid was tired of baseball right now, and needed a mental and physical break.   I know my son is looking forward to a break as he has never had a season this long before.   This is my son's last weekend until he shuts it down for 6-8 weeks on the mound.   I know he'll be chomping at the bit in 6 weeks to play catch. 

 

Good luck!

So it's basketball season and you're upset your son isn't practicing baseball? What sport he plays should be his choice. You can only lay out the options and reasoning.

RJM, I agree.  Heck, my daughter was very tall at a young age.  I was once the head coach of 3 sports at the same time of which one was girl's basketball.  She could go between her legs, spin move, ...  She was good at the 3 point shot and could make layups with both hands.  However, watch out.  When she was in 5th and 6th grades, and at my varsity basketball practices, she would sneak outwith my keys and go upstairs to hit softballs in the cage.  I'd hear the sound and know exactly where she was.  In 7th and 8th grades, there was no question what she was going to do.  Your child is doing something I'm betting RJM and others did "back in the day."  Played what sport that was in season and had a great time doing it.  Nothing wrong here.  If he is doing something athletic then let him have down time to rest his body.  JMHO!

I'm with Fenwaysouth, Golfman. JP was kinda like your son at that age -- with the added stress of a cage in the backyard.

 

I kept telling my wife ... he'll decide when he wants to get serious about the hard stuff on his own; don't push.

 

I suspected and predicted it would happen when he was 15-16 -- and I was right.

 

The big question in your case, it seems, is whether basketball is his first love. If it is, our circumstances are different, and I can only offer what I've seen in select ball: Two boys, both tall, lefty, hard-throwing pitchers with lots of upside ... fizzled, because neither one loved baseball like they did basketball.

 

The hard part for you is ... YOU know his prospects are better in baseball ... but if he doesn't love it, are they really?

 

I hope he does, and I hope it works out for you like it has for us. IF and when he wants it, he'll leave the xbox for it.

 

But for the record ... I marvel at the anecdotal lives, via Twitter, of MILB and MLB ball players: They STILL love xbox!

You need to spend some time with a motivational speaker.

 

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-ni...onal-speaker/n10432/

There's a season for everything, even xbox.  My son loved basketball, during the basketball season.  When baseball started, he loved baseball.

 

Relax man, he's in 8th grade,

So much good advice here. Best may be to just let him be a kid for awhile. If he wants to play baseball, sometimes a bit of time away is the best medicine. On a different outlook, I didn't let Jr. play organized ball till he was 12 because of this same topic. Didn't want him getting burned out when he hit his teens. Good luck to you and your son, I'm sure it'll work out for him. 

Thanks all.  Some good perspective.  The school season ends in a few weeks.  I'm going to lay off for a while and see how it goes.  He'll know I am around to take him whenever he wants to go. 

 

And I love Matt Foley. 

Golfman25,

 

I truly sounds as though what’s happened is your boy now sees baseball as a job rather than as a source of pleasure and relaxation. There are some of us who actually love their job and can’t get enough of it at work or not, but most of us need to get away from our jobs and do something else in order to “blow out the cobwebs”. A kid at any age shouldn’t have a full time job. There’s just too many other things they should be doing to help them figger out what to do in this life.

 

My suggestion is to back off and let him do whatever he chooses with his personal time. Lord knows he’ll have to worry about a job soon enough.

Lot of good advice here. I'm very much in the camp for letting him come to his own conclusion about what he'll pursue.

 

One of the principal reasons? As he progresses in a sport, the need to work only heightens because those who remain in it are increasingly the ones who are devoted to it. If his passion for a sport at a younger age dwindles, he's either got to return to it because he discovers that he can't live without it or find himself even more challenged down the road by the increasing proportion of ones who are genuinely dedicated to it.

 

Best of luck to him!

Xbox can be a source of entertainment, but it can also become an addiction.  If that is all he wants to do, it will get in the way of everything.  Practicing baseball will be the least of his problems.

 

Most people are best at the things they most enjoy.  I bet he is very good at Xbox. Wonder what would happen if he were "forced" to play Xbox for 8 or more hours every day? Would he love it or hate it?

 

Not sure if you can get the best possible results by forcing someone to do something they don't want to do.  Pushing someone who already loves the game is another story, that can actually work.

 

Here is my uneducated opinion... If you want him to work harder at something, try to create interest.  Rather than suggesting he go hit, ask him about hitting.  Ask him what he thinks about players and the game.  Make him feel like he really understands the game.  In other words, see if you can find a way to get him to love the game.  Because if he ever gets to loving the game, you won't ever have to push very much.  If your efforts fail and he never loves the game, his chances for success are so low it's probably not worth your time and effort.

 

Anyway, there are so many things that are so much more important than playing baseball.  However, playing Xbox is probably not one of those things. Simply being a good person is one of those things. Best of luck

The XBox is addictive and, as such, is antithetical to motivation. I think that it, rather than baseball, per se, is the source of his indifference. Even casual XBox playing has been found to alter the young male brain. See Leonard Sax's excellent book Boys Adrift: The Five Factors Driving the Epidemic of Unmotivated Boys and Underachieving Young Men; here's his website: http://www.leonardsax.com)

 

I see the harm of extensive video gaming every day in my job as an English professor: first, young women out number young men on my campus (and on college campuses nationwide); and, second, the few young men who are in my classes struggle to conjure up the motivation to come to class, much less the motivation to complete assignments. I hear similar stories from my colleagues who teach in more selective schools.

 

When my almost 50-year old husband was in elementary school and addicted to 1970s after-school television, he came home from school one day only to discover that the TV no longer worked (his mom removed the tube). As the adult, you control this situation. 

 

Finally, lest I come off as a total fascist mom, my son's words and his accomplishments back me up: one day, when he was a HS freshman (and the only freshman who made the varsity baseball team), he said to me, "Thanks for never giving in to my begging and getting me an XBox." He said this because he saw that he made varsity precisely through hard work, which we facilitated by not caving in to his demands for an XBox.*

 

*Okay, I'll confess that he did have a Wii, which he won through Boy Scout popcorn sales; however, we would not allow him to play Wii during the week.

Not sure how this thread turned into a debate about Xbox, but come on people ... all things in moderation.

 

PGStaff -- you feel pretty strongly about this, obviously. But JP says there was an Xbox booth at WWBA in Jupiter. Might've been PS3, he said, but whatever. It was there. Yes, it was showcasing MLB game ... but that's exactly what lots of these young men play. So there you go.

 

southwestprof: I'm glad your son made varsity as a freshman. Lots of our boys did. And it's fine if he believes he did it in part because he didn't spend time on Xbox. But as I mentioned earlier -- even those who've made it to the Show continue to play these games.

 

I find your other anecdotal stories completely unconvincing. How in the world do you and your professor colleagues know conclude that Xbox is the villain for those young boys' behavior? What if, just what if, they're partying? Or doting on girlfriends? Or working, to earn some money to spend on their cars and their girlfriends. It's an old story.

 

And are you saying that your husband is the man he is today because his Mom shut down TV? Yikes! How many of us vegged out after school on Gilligan or Beaver?? And you know what? We're doing pretty well.

 

Clearly there's no cause and effect for most ball players. It all comes down to what matters most to each of us -- even teenagers.

 

(There. I feel better. Now out to toss JP some BP in the cage)

So let me clarify.....He practices with his new team, then goes to a private hitting coach AND pitching coach, on top of going to basketball and you are upset that he wants to kick back, relax, and play Xbox.  Holy molly, when are you planning on the 6am weight room sessions?

X Box and similar products did not invent a problem. The problem is distraction. As a kid my parents worried about the amount of Strat O Matic Baseball I played. When they were done worrying, Strat O Matic came out with football. For some kids it was Monopoly, Clue, TV, etc.. 

 

If anyone is concerned about their son's coach potato tendencies, what do they see their parents doing in their spare time?

Golf, my second son was a lot bigger than Bum, Jr. (my LHP son).  Growing up, he could hit ANYTHING in or out of the strikezone.  He was the one I always had to kick in the you-know-what to go to practice, workout, do the extra things.  With Bum, Jr., it was a lot easier.

 

Second son loved baseball but it was not his dream.  He is now a commissioned officer with a mathematics degree from West Point.

 

What I'm saying is not all of these kids are meant to pursue college or the pros.  It doesn't mean they don't love the game.

No. No. No.  His team practices ended several weeks ago in October.  He has just started 1.5 hrs. of group catching instruction and 1 hr. of group pitching instruction per week.  He has basketball everyday after school and homework.  Usually done by 8 pm.  His catching/pitching guys give him things to work on at home each week -- about 10 min. a few times during the week.  He usually "forgets."  I'd just like him to do that work and add 1-2 hours of hitting when he has some down time, like Saturday mornings.  And then shoot free throws. 

The 6am weight room sessions start next year. 

JP, I agree all things in moderation.  I have no problem with him playing xbox as long as it is the last on his priority list.  I tell him all the time -- you will have time to do everything you want to do, but not everything will get equal time.  I just want him to make sure he sets his priorities right. 

 

What southwest says hits home:  That after her kid made varsity and grew up he realized that mom was right.  Parents have the benefit of experience.  I know if he works hard he can contribute to his HS baseball program.  If he doesn't, he'll be on the outside looking in.  I don't want his baseball career to be cut short because he didn't work hard enough. 

 

For example, several years ago he started working out as a catcher.  It was a lot of extra work.  He was going to give it up because he wasn't getting the opportunity to play catcher as we had the best catcher in town on our team.  But here's the thing.  The catching coaches that worked with him where the best coaches he has had at any level, in any sport.  So I encouraged him to keep with it -- the worst thing that could happen is he spent a few extra hours of hard work with excellent coaches and learned a skill he may be able to use one day.  I didn't force him.  Fast forward a couple of years, the one catcher leaves and my kid goes from catching a few innings per season to catching 75-80% of the innings.  Coaches start inviting him to tryout for their team.  Had I not suggested he keep at it, he wouldn't have the opportunities he has now. 

 

So I am trying to find that line between "encouraging" him to do the extra work to get better and letting him make his own decisions.  So far, you all have given some great perspective.   

Golfman25,

 

It is truly a fine line as you stated but things have a way of working themselves out. At least twice in his baseball journey, my son has told me that he wanted to quit or slow down on baseball for a while. Once when he was eight, he told me he didn't want to play Little League baseball that year, but luckily his little brother was so excited to sign up for his first season that it rekindled my older son's interest and by signup day he decided he would play after all.

 

Later when he was 15 he went through a little burnout period but after a few weeks of taking time off after an unenjoyable high school freshman year in a program in which baseball was definitly #4 on the school's sports totem pole and the JV coaches were guys who admitted they only knew football and nothing about baseball and hadn't even played in high school, we rekindled his passion by joining a new travel team that was more of a challenge and backed off the extra work at home until HE decided he wanted to do some.

 

It will all play itself out if you try your darndest to make the game fun again by maybe backing off a little especially as he's trying to also focus on basketball. The story has turned out great for my son going into his senior season in college and I'm sure it can turn out that way for yall also.

A friend's  young daughter was diagnosed with leukemia.  After treatment, the doctors suggested the family get a PlayStation (before Xbox) to help with....get this....HAND-EYE COORDINATION!

Golf, in the second grade Bum, Jr.'s elementary teacher asked each kid to write down what they wanted to be when they grew up.

 

Bum, Jr. wrote down an MLB pitcher.

 

He's not there yet, may never be, but he has never waivered from his dream.  Growing up, I would ask him nearly every week, "Do you still love baseball?"  He always said yes.  I told him that's great, that as long as the answer was yes, he would have to dedicate himself to work twice as hard as the competition.  There's no half-way.

 

Re-read your post.  Your son has already told you he doesn't want to do it. 

 

I'm talking about the mental aspect of baseball, which I believe is critically important.  You want your kid to have dreams.  Okay, is it his dream?  Figure this out first, then you can discuss with him the plan to get there.

 

Dream.  Plan.  Do.

 

He also tells me he doesn't want to do his math homework or go to school. 

He's still a kid.  Does he really know what he wants to do?  As a parent, what role to we take to provide guidance?  If he did what he wanted to do, he would live on snickers bars and x box. 

What level of the pro's is Bum Jr. at now? 

My son is not allowed to play PS3 except on the weekends and even that is limited.  

 

Whether you son wants to play baseball I would severely limit the time on the XBox.

Parents make kids go to school and do homework because its required. Parents limit snacks and activities for health reasons. But I don't understand how a parent can force a kid to participate in a certain extracurricular activity. It seems like a way to make him hate the activity. The kid likes basketball. There's nothing wrong with that. It appears he likes baseball when he feels its time to play baseball. The passion to do more has to come from the kid, not the parent.

 

I've heard stories in person and on boards of dads claiming their preteen lives for baseball. The dad constantly has him out practicing claiming the kid wants it. Then when the kid becomes a teen the dad can't figure out why the kid doesn't have the same passion. Plus other new interests come into play. Preteens please dad. Teens try to please themselves. Only the kids with true passion survive a sport.

 

I coached a kid in 13\14 rec basketball who had so much fun he gave up baseball (he had talent) to play basketball year round. His father was ticked at ME. The kid told me basketball was fun because his father didn't know the game well enough to do a post game dissection on the ride home. This kid never made varsity basketball. He would have started varsity baseball junior year. His brother played college ball. His dad was a baseball coach. The kid is still playing organized basketball (intramurals) in college.

This from Bum...

"Dream.  Plan.  Do."

 

This from RJM...

"Parents make kids go to school and do homework because its required. Parents limit snacks and activities for health reasons. But I don't understand how a parent can force a kid to participate in a certain extracurricular activity. It seems like a way to make him hate the activity."

 

This from the OP...

"I am trying to find that line between "encouraging" him to do the extra work to get better and letting him make his own decisions."

 

When our third and last kid clearly showed he was the ultra-competitive one that wanted to be an athlete, we certainly went through this struggle.  Through trial and error , this is where we landed...

 

Frequently checked in and asked what his goals and dreams are.  Regularly helped educate on how to work toward attaining those goals and dreams.  Allow for them to change.  Point out positive role models who have succeeded in accomplishing those same goals and dreams.  Allow for "kids to be kids" and enjoy their primary sport/activity of choice as well as many others (And there were MANY others!).  Give him a break when he needed a break.  Steer him toward resources that will help him understand the effort necessary and the path to take.  Realize that he won't always accept and utilize those resources.  Support where/when needed.  Back off where/when needed. Love him and enjoy where he's at regardless of whether his choices match what ours might be.

 

With video games, we allowed but set limits.  With sports/extracurricular, we required that each kid participate in at least one of THEIR CHOICE for each season.

It really is a fine line and easier said than done. 

 

As a coach, I've seen too many kids pushed too hard by parents and end up leaving or not enjoying the sport.  But, on the flip side, many of the kids who continue to the next level had parents who pushed pretty hard.  I would like to think that, in both instances, the driving factor was that the player had the dream.

 

As a parent, I believe we succeeded but not without our share of mistakes along the way.  My measuring stick for our success... Cabbage is in his second year of college coming back from a lengthy injury that wiped out his first year.  Last week, he commented that he really loves playing again.

 

I want to make it clear that I am not talking about forcing him to participate in something he doesn't want to do.  He still goes to the official organized team activities without question.  He doesn't complain or pout about going. 

 

I am talking about motivating him to do that little bit of extra work outside of official team activities.  

 

I think this motivation to do the extra applies to all aspects of life - not just sports.  It includes the extra math problems to ace the upcoming test.  Or the extra page on a report.  Eventually, it will be doing the extra work to be successful in his day job.

I didn't have to do this often. But sometimes I walked by my kids laying on the sofa when I knew they hadn't done the work yet and asked, "Is laying there helping you reach your goals?" and kept walking. They got the message. But notice I said THEIR goals, not my goals for them.

Golfman -- you've received a lot of different perspectives here -- everything from Hang in there ... he may surprise you at 15-16 ... to My son never went through this, so maybe baseball's not his thing ... to Whatever you do, don't push him away from the sport.

 

And on and on.

 

I think we all understand your question. How hard should we push an 8th grader who has talent, but isn't currently self-motivated enough to do those extra things to improve his game.

 

There's no single answer. But I'm curious: Aside from agreeing with someone earlier that xBox is a moral hazard, do you find ANY of this helpful?

I believe the extra work is something that they, themselves, have to realize will help them.  You can ask, beg, demand all you want, but it has to come from them.  

 

I get it.  As a parent you believe in their abilities and want them to work harder at it. But they have their own agenda and list of things that they feel are important in their lives.

 

My son has also always went to team organized practices, etc... with no complaints. But the value of the extra work had to be demonstrated to him.  That came about a year or so ago (7th or 8th grade) when he struggled in his at bats at a baseball tournament.  Where did he go at that point?  Straight to one of the cages at the tournament site. All of the many times that I had told him that he should put the extra work in finally hit home.  He did not enjoy his poor at bats and realized he had to put more work in if he wanted more success.  

 

I'm not suggesting that this will happen with your son, but at some point he will get the message.  Whether he gives up or gets down to work will give you the answer that you're seeking.

Yes.  Hearing other people's experiences provides different perspectives.  There is no one answer.  Sounds to me like I'll lay off for a little while until school basketball is done.  Then, I'll keep doing what I have been doing -- offering to help when he wants to, but not pushing it too hard.  We'll see what happens as we get closer to spring. 

Work with him on finding a mentor (or two or three).  It can be someone a  year or two older, a coach, or someone going to college playing multiple sports.  Someone he (and hopefully) you can contact in the tough times.  My son has a couple.  Kids who have graduated high school, took many AP and honors courses, and playing and doing well at the next level.  I can only cajole so much.  Sometimes I suggest to my son that he contact one of his mentors, or I'll contact one of my son's mentors and ask if they wouldn't mind contacting him (just to say hi, leaving me out of it).  Video also works.  Just show film of a bad at bat, poor pitch, missed tackle, bad three point shot, etc.  Makes the point and you don't have to say anything.  Of course, if your son is a lineman in football you can always use food.  A real lineman will do anything for food.

This is a topic that has been on my mind for a long time, I have used the analogy with my son of an old tired dirt bike. Some times you have to push it to get it started but at some point it has to give you some indication it will take off under it's own power other wise you just look like an idiot out there pushing around a piece of junk. For the olde crowd here we are talking about beating a dead horse. Part of the problem is when the motor cycle looks fantastic but won't quite run. We as parents want to know what part needs to be adjusted or replaced to take full advantage of what you've invested in recognizing all the benefits that could be gained given the best/right effort. There have been a number of times over the years where I have had to all but bodily put my son in the car and endure an angry silent trip to the ball field and then on the way home he thanks me for making him go.

Baseball seems like a hobby for this particular child.  Not a passion.  Does he really need to put in extra work to enjoy a hobby?

 

XBox is also a hobby.  Why not learn how to play a few games so that you can spend some time together enjoying that hobby?  

 

I've heard many parents talk about "wind shield time" as the best part of travel sports.  That time driving to and from practices & games.  Sometimes there is conversation.  Sometimes there isn't.  

 

The same thing can happen in front of the XBox.  You think there might be a chance that he would have a blast helping you to learn?  Remember, he is the EXPERT at XBox.  Not you.  

 

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com

I'm not going to add anything of substantive value to the discussion because there's really no good answer because it's such an individual situation and a lot of great things have already been said.  I just want to thank you for trying to take the right approach in handling this to guide / teach your child without becoming "that parent".  It's a tough line to walk but there are so many parents out there who don't get it that it makes for a miserable experience.

 

What happens is the kid is so miserable that he / she doesn't want to be part of that sport / activity anymore but due to a lack of maturity, or scared of parent reaction, they don't have that discussion with their parents about why they don't want to be part of whatever.  So they rebel by acting up hoping to get kicked off the team.  Now they aren't the bad guy - the coach is.  The focus of the parent anger is in the wrong place.  I didn't see this as much when I was a head coach but I see it quite a bit now that I'm AD.  I try to talk to these parents and kids to help them see the light but sometimes they just don't get it and it turns ugly.  With the approach you're taking I find it difficult to think that your situation will get ugly.  Yeah you're probably going to fight some but not like what I see in my experiences.

 

I'll say this, which is similar to what RJM posted, yesterday (Monday) during first period I have a sophomore softball player in my class.  She comes in complaining about having to work out after school and asked what I thought about her not doing it.  Well overall I don't really care because I'm not the coach and I'm going to be busy doing a million other things.  So I told her she's a big girl and she can make whatever decision she feels is best but then I asked if she wanted to play in college (she has some talent but she still has to do some work) to which she said yes.  I followed up with telling her I understand what she's feeling because everyone goes through that at some point but somewhere out there in the rest of the world there are several other girls who want that same roster spot at whatever school. They will end up working out today and they will work out on days they don't feel like working out.  Do you want to be the odd man out of a roster spot because you didn't feel like working out?  Each day you take off because you don't feel like doing it makes that next day a little easier to take off until you realize you're not working out at all.

 

Anyway - sorry for rambling all over the place with this post.  I'll get back to doing other things.

Just reading this whole blog. Haven't been on much. It is the off season for my son and we are just enjoying him being around some.

 

I limited video games. I didn't even allow them when they first came out. He was almost 13 before he had any of them.  Once in HS I limited it to the weekends, not for baseball but for academics. He had a study hall time, regardless if he said he had HW as there is always something to do.

 

I really think the extra work for a sport really needs to come from the kid himself. Kids go through times when they need a break, basketball season would be that time.

 

If the passion doesn't come from within, I think its a tough road for the relationship. As much work as my son did for baseball, if I would of forced that, it would of tarnished our relationship.

 

When my son began HS, we sat down and made a plan. We asked him his goals ,his were to play baseball, so we told him that we would support him in every way, but he had to maintain a certain GPA. or the most part he kept his end of the bargain,when  he didn't I let him know that we would not support financially extra curricular lessons, etc ,unless he had good grades. We stuck to that .Was it always smooth, no but it was agreed upon.

 

Baseball is hard work. You have to work on all the skills that are required to be good at baseball, fielding, hitting, footwork ,weight training,nutrition.My son was not a premium athlete, he is a good athlete ,but as you move along there are freakish guys.The work is pretty constant.I think they have to really, really love it. I think HS will separate out many. It is ok to be a recreational baseball player.nothing wrong with that. Anything beyond HS will require a commitment that most never really understand .At that point it is so entirely in the players hands or they just wont be able to continue. The competition just gets to step.