I wasn't going to post, but seems that this topic keeps coming up over and over and I consider it one of the mot important things here to be discussed.
I am in agreement with topdog's thinking as a mom and parent. Unless I knew mine could compete in a top school, I would encourage a better situation for mine to be in early on. If he proved himself and able to keep a roster spot at a smaller program, then transfering would be an option later on for the school of his dreams, possibly.
Nothing is a given and yes your son has to compete for a spot, but actually getting to school and finding out he may be cut along with 10 others is not what I felt was the norm for scholarship students. I would tend to say most of those who are asked to leave have been given little or a "recruited walk on" promise.
They don't cut on my son's program, yes, you have to compete for a starting position, not to stay ON the team. They recruited 15 for next year, but are expecting to loose that many through attrition or the draft. Also, at every big program, there are but a few who actually make it to their senior year, a handful. Most players in big schools,do not get a chance to use up their 4 years of eligibility, unless coach has a real need for them, catchers, pitchers, outstanding hitters. As Fungo said once, his son was drafted, but if he stayed he probably would not have been awarded his scholarhship for a 4th year. At that pont the coach has already spent his money on a new player coming in the following year. This is not true in every case, but in teh larger programs, you can bet your bottom dollar if a player has not made an impact of some sort by his sophomore year he will not be around the following year. Coaches can't afford to have players waiting around to develop into the player they need for 3,4 years.
Before making a decision, this should be discussed and understood with the coaching staff, what exactly is their game plan. But so many are just so happy their son got a spot, they are not willing to venture to ask those questions.
quote:It's a very Darwinian process and the reason I don't like to watch those NAtional Geographic shows with crocodiles and Orca whales lunching by the shoreline.
Very good analogy. And it is a good prelude to the real world, but you are talking about 17 & 18 year old kids here. Your son and CD's son are probably in the minority. Great for them - they've worked hard and they deserve it. From what both of you say they knew what they were getting into going in, they had the opportunity to make that choice. And made the best of it.Many people have likened college baseball (coaching) to a business. But the company I work for does not hire twice as many employees as they need to weed out the 50% that don't measure up. Even if they did, how many people would accept a job in that situation (if they had options), knowing in 3 months they could be looking for another because they didn't "make the cut"? And most of the kids that sign with D1 programs that do this have other options.
quote:Originally posted by Fungo:
Jaxbulldog,
Baseball America list the top 12 recruiting classes in the nation and six of those teams are in Kentucky’s conference, the SEC. Kentucky finished 7-22 in the SEC last year under John Cohen against that same competition that has just reloaded with better talent than Kentucky. It’s been five years since Kentucky has even qualified for the SEC tournament and it’s been twelve years since they have been to NCAA post season. The way I see it, the SEC is relentless and in order to move up in the ranks a coach has to be very talented....not brazen, bold, and outspoken. Cohen’s explanation for over recruiting is nothing more than press release propaganda. BUT again...I guess we’ll all have to wait and see.
Fungo
PS: I happen to like KY and hope they kick Tennessee’s tail this weekend.
Fungo,
With great respect to your vast knowledge and Grand Poobah-ness on the HSBBW, all I'm saying is that if I were John Cohen, or a Kentucky baseball fan, and my Wildcats' pitching staff were giving up 15-20 runs a game, and I was finishing 7-22 in conference, I'd address the pitching need and NO NUMBER would be too high. The fact that 6 of the Top 12 were SEC teams is the reason to address the need. Competition is STIFF. Where is it writen that I have to build slowly through attrition vs. trying to do so immediately just to avoid hurting someone's feelings? I don't think you hire a new coach with the expectation of competing EVENTUALLY.
If I had to replace players on the staff, weither I inherited them or recruited them, I'd do so. I probably wouldn't like having to do it, but the cold hard facts are, some kids on a staff that just aren't up to competing in the SEC should be elsewhere. I would owe it to the other players, fans, administration, family, and myself, to put the best possible product on the field. [U]Of course[/U] his "explanation" was a "press release", show me a coach that doesn't do the same thing regardless of incoming talent level. It's all about making fans, incoming players and their families feel good about themselves and their institution. It is not exclusive to baseball... everybody does it. I would also think that thinning a weak herd is the mark of a talented coach, not a "brazen, bold, and outspoken" one.
IMHO, the real culprit here is the NCAA and their insane 11.7 limit of baseball scholarship, leading to the need for "tryouts", and thus cuts, in the fall. Meatheadball gets EIGHTY-F'IN'-FIVE full scholarships, and unless you commit armed robbery, rape, or sell drugs, your 100% scholarship is good for five years if need be. No tryouts, no cuts, no nothing. They field the equivilent of 4 full teams each on offense and defense, and yet baseball can barely field a team with 11.7.
Personally, I think football should be reduced to 75 and give those other 10 to baseball. But then, I have a brain, and that seperates me from the wisdom of the NCAA. (Beside, the women would probably demand 6 of those 10 for their new test sport, Olympic-style "Ribbon Dancing" team. Baseball would only see a net gain of 4, but that's the price of progress.)
quote:And it is a good prelude to the real world, but you are talking about 17 & 18 year old kids here.
TDF. Yes and they're all in the same boat. The quicker they adjust to the situation the better off they are. Jr's roomie moved out with Jr's iPod and gear, $300 set of poker chips and new Nike's. Lesson learned. When you get to school trust no one and work your *** off, because it is a cruel world full of crooks and back stabbers. The quicker that's learned the better off they are. Luckily the amount stolen hit the felony level and the cretin will get a wake up call by his local constabulary soon.
quote:But the company I work for does not hire twice as many employees as they need to weed out the 50% that don't measure up. Even if they did, how many people would accept a job in that situation (if they had options), knowing in 3 months they could be looking for another because they didn't "make the cut"? And most of the kids that sign with D1 programs that do this have other options.
They might hire more if they could get them to work for free, though.
Free is basicly what state schools get top players for when they sign for books or less. I certainly don't recommend signing for that, but it happens alot. I guess schools will stop over signing kids when they stop walking on the team.
This is a very interesting conversation. I feel like there are two different things that have been pointed out here - genuine competing for a spot vs being brought in as part of a 50 man roster when coach knows 15 of those kids will have to go. I tend to agree with you Dad that usually the ones that will end up going are those that have very little invested in them (TPM point also). But not always. Not all schools that are successful stockpile - including not all SEC schools. My feelings are that if a player is going to be a part of a scenario like this, then he and parents should do so with eyes wide open. 
lafmom
Wide open eyes are the key. A true understanding of your athletic abilities in the big picture, a very competitive nature with a dash of self-confidence help, as well.
Vandy can't stockpile players. Tuitions cost prohibit that, as they do at Tulane where they used two-way players to dominate last year. My son was recruited, I guess, by a private ACC school, big $$$. Ok, Wake. The first thing they asked was "Uh, how much can your folks pay for college each year?" I guess they find some folks that say $40,000 a year is very cool, but not many.
"...the ones that will end up going are those that have very little invested in them(TPM point also) But not always.."
True. The scholly's are small all over. Plenty of All-Conference guys and All-Americans are on books only.
Wide open eyes are the key. A true understanding of your athletic abilities in the big picture, a very competitive nature with a dash of self-confidence help, as well.
Vandy can't stockpile players. Tuitions cost prohibit that, as they do at Tulane where they used two-way players to dominate last year. My son was recruited, I guess, by a private ACC school, big $$$. Ok, Wake. The first thing they asked was "Uh, how much can your folks pay for college each year?" I guess they find some folks that say $40,000 a year is very cool, but not many.
"...the ones that will end up going are those that have very little invested in them(TPM point also) But not always.."
True. The scholly's are small all over. Plenty of All-Conference guys and All-Americans are on books only.
First, I will confess that I was not aware of what overrecruiting really meant.
I can thank Bee for that clarification and the related articles elsewhere on this site.
And, Fungo is correct that minor leaguers do not spend a year sitting on the bench.
I actually analyzed our schools rosters for a year before and the year after my son signed and tried to predict the final roster each year.
I didn't do very well.
During all that analyis "over recruiting" never entered my mind.
Thought it would never affect my son.
I am sure to those that have not been through that first college year and to those that don't survive the cuts, it appears that schools recruit way too many and then weed out.
On the backside of that freshman year and reviewing all that analyis that I did, I understand that the draft dramatically affects many programs and many other factors, as well.
Sometimes a junior expected to be drafted is not.
Sometimes a junior not expected to be drafte is.
When you are a freshman and that player ahead of you is drafted, a window opens.
When you are a freshmean and that player ahead of you is not drafted, a window closes.
To me it appears that our school may have over recruited this year.
I do not know what those players were promised, but likely not much based on my experience.
So, while it appears that those programs recruit too many, it seems to me that the attrition rate is tremendous.
You must ask the question or the coach must tell you how they see you fitting into their program.
The coach told my son without us asking, but he said, "I am giving you a chance. What you do with it is up to you."
And, like the minors, Fungo, if he hadn't been ready, I bet he would have been sent back down to a juco.
And, TPM, that was a great post.
I can thank Bee for that clarification and the related articles elsewhere on this site.
And, Fungo is correct that minor leaguers do not spend a year sitting on the bench.
I actually analyzed our schools rosters for a year before and the year after my son signed and tried to predict the final roster each year.
I didn't do very well.
During all that analyis "over recruiting" never entered my mind.
Thought it would never affect my son.
I am sure to those that have not been through that first college year and to those that don't survive the cuts, it appears that schools recruit way too many and then weed out.
On the backside of that freshman year and reviewing all that analyis that I did, I understand that the draft dramatically affects many programs and many other factors, as well.
Sometimes a junior expected to be drafted is not.
Sometimes a junior not expected to be drafte is.
When you are a freshman and that player ahead of you is drafted, a window opens.
When you are a freshmean and that player ahead of you is not drafted, a window closes.
To me it appears that our school may have over recruited this year.
I do not know what those players were promised, but likely not much based on my experience.
So, while it appears that those programs recruit too many, it seems to me that the attrition rate is tremendous.
You must ask the question or the coach must tell you how they see you fitting into their program.
The coach told my son without us asking, but he said, "I am giving you a chance. What you do with it is up to you."
And, like the minors, Fungo, if he hadn't been ready, I bet he would have been sent back down to a juco.
And, TPM, that was a great post.
Dad04
Hope this unfortunate event didn't bring your son down from his great performance in the Fall games. Even though we didn't end up Cajuns at our house, we still appreciate your school's stellar program. Congrats to your son on a strong start to the new year!
Hope this unfortunate event didn't bring your son down from his great performance in the Fall games. Even though we didn't end up Cajuns at our house, we still appreciate your school's stellar program. Congrats to your son on a strong start to the new year!
TDF,
I was unclear. I am saying we didn't know exactly what we were getting into. I am not saying knowing this would have changed anything however. We basically focused on the kid ahead of him getting drafted and when that occurred, I naively assumed that opened a position up for my son. It certainly did open a position for him, but it also opened a position up for 1/2 dozen other guys as well - that is the part I have become more aware of.
You have to put things in perspective however. At least my son is only competing with 6 guys instead of 23 guys like Dad04's son is competing with. It seems clear to me, that pitching is stockpiled way more than other positions.
What I am saying now is, that it seems to me that over-recruiting or whatever you want to call it "seems" more normal to me than just an aberation. I don't think this is occurring only at rogue programs either. These are just intuitions and based totally on a gut feel on my part. I have done no research other than to read this board, observe my son's situation, and form an opinion based thereon.
I was unclear. I am saying we didn't know exactly what we were getting into. I am not saying knowing this would have changed anything however. We basically focused on the kid ahead of him getting drafted and when that occurred, I naively assumed that opened a position up for my son. It certainly did open a position for him, but it also opened a position up for 1/2 dozen other guys as well - that is the part I have become more aware of.
You have to put things in perspective however. At least my son is only competing with 6 guys instead of 23 guys like Dad04's son is competing with. It seems clear to me, that pitching is stockpiled way more than other positions.
What I am saying now is, that it seems to me that over-recruiting or whatever you want to call it "seems" more normal to me than just an aberation. I don't think this is occurring only at rogue programs either. These are just intuitions and based totally on a gut feel on my part. I have done no research other than to read this board, observe my son's situation, and form an opinion based thereon.
quote:TPM posted: Before making a decision, this should be discussed and understood with the coaching staff, what exactly is their game plan. But so many are just so happy their son got a spot, they are not willing to venture to ask those questions.
quote:FO posted: You must ask the question or the coach must tell you how they see you fitting into their program.
The coach told my son without us asking, but he said, "I am giving you a chance. What you do with it is up to you."
Honest answers will most likely be given to those questions. If a high level of comfort with those answers and your abilities to make your dream come true (whatever they are) is not felt, then move on to the next opportunity.
KCbaseball
Thanks. A good time was had by all this fall. We spent a week there for the World Series. Jr. led the team with 2 wins and finshed the fall with a 1.35 ERA. (please pardon bragging)
It's just stuff. The other kid has a boat load of talent and a wacky upbringing that's not his fault. He is 20 though and responsible for his actions now. Luckily he was the exception to the rule there, and he's gone, but not forgotten.
ClevelandDad
The more the merrier, I guess. It does promote a very, cough, cough, "competitive" environment in the fall. Good luck to your son.
Thanks. A good time was had by all this fall. We spent a week there for the World Series. Jr. led the team with 2 wins and finshed the fall with a 1.35 ERA. (please pardon bragging)
It's just stuff. The other kid has a boat load of talent and a wacky upbringing that's not his fault. He is 20 though and responsible for his actions now. Luckily he was the exception to the rule there, and he's gone, but not forgotten.
ClevelandDad
quote:It seems clear to me, that pitching is stockpiled way more than other positions.
The more the merrier, I guess. It does promote a very, cough, cough, "competitive" environment in the fall. Good luck to your son.
Some general/random observations relating to this topic for what it is worth:
1.) Even schools that do not "stockpile" can make it pretty clear to a player that he is not in their future plans and that the scholarship is in jeopardya after Fall ball is complete. Suspect it happens even at schools mentioned in this thread that do not "stockpile."
2.) Players do have some protection if they enounter "stockpiling" or find their choice of college for baseball is a choice where they will not play. Baseball does allow a one time transfer without loss of eligibility and with the ability to play immediately. If a player/family find they made the wrong choice or a choice based on incomplete information, a transfer can occur. Not the easiest solution but lots better than football/basketball.
3.) To me, the most important part of this is how we can underestimate the jump in calibre and intensity of play/competition in college. Every single player who signed a DI NLI last week has always been a starter/always been a star. For the most part have never truly faced the type of competition they do when college and baseball is confronted. Sons get to college and, for the first time, they are on their own, they do not have those comfortable anchors they did at home, they have to time manage, keep up with academics, watch their friends socialize and make assessments of how much of that they want/can afford to do. They are competing against players who are 21-22 years old and have been weight training intensively for 2-3 years. The game is so much faster and the players are so much stronger. This is truly a time for every player who signed last week to feel great for a job well done and for the accolades and accomplishments. But, in all honesty, that should/must be shortlived. In terms of "playing" in college, they haven't accomplished anything, yet.
IMO, even the best of college coaches is quite hampered in accurately estimating which of his recruits will be able to succeed when they encounter the rigors of college life and baseball...and which head home with the roommates belongings.
4.) One of the real downsides to rankings and baseball becoming a revenue sport is the change in midweek games. 10 years ago, coaches would use those games to afford playing time more equally throughout a roster. Now, teams cannot afford a mid week loss because it will affect them for post season play and affect them a lot. As a result, many programs now play the same 8 players for the vast majority of the 56 games. If you make a bad choice in schools now, you are faced with sitting possibly your entire career which is a very harsh reality for some wonderfully talented kids.
1.) Even schools that do not "stockpile" can make it pretty clear to a player that he is not in their future plans and that the scholarship is in jeopardya after Fall ball is complete. Suspect it happens even at schools mentioned in this thread that do not "stockpile."
2.) Players do have some protection if they enounter "stockpiling" or find their choice of college for baseball is a choice where they will not play. Baseball does allow a one time transfer without loss of eligibility and with the ability to play immediately. If a player/family find they made the wrong choice or a choice based on incomplete information, a transfer can occur. Not the easiest solution but lots better than football/basketball.
3.) To me, the most important part of this is how we can underestimate the jump in calibre and intensity of play/competition in college. Every single player who signed a DI NLI last week has always been a starter/always been a star. For the most part have never truly faced the type of competition they do when college and baseball is confronted. Sons get to college and, for the first time, they are on their own, they do not have those comfortable anchors they did at home, they have to time manage, keep up with academics, watch their friends socialize and make assessments of how much of that they want/can afford to do. They are competing against players who are 21-22 years old and have been weight training intensively for 2-3 years. The game is so much faster and the players are so much stronger. This is truly a time for every player who signed last week to feel great for a job well done and for the accolades and accomplishments. But, in all honesty, that should/must be shortlived. In terms of "playing" in college, they haven't accomplished anything, yet.
IMO, even the best of college coaches is quite hampered in accurately estimating which of his recruits will be able to succeed when they encounter the rigors of college life and baseball...and which head home with the roommates belongings.
4.) One of the real downsides to rankings and baseball becoming a revenue sport is the change in midweek games. 10 years ago, coaches would use those games to afford playing time more equally throughout a roster. Now, teams cannot afford a mid week loss because it will affect them for post season play and affect them a lot. As a result, many programs now play the same 8 players for the vast majority of the 56 games. If you make a bad choice in schools now, you are faced with sitting possibly your entire career which is a very harsh reality for some wonderfully talented kids.
.
My normal, contrary opinion....As I observe it....herein lies a part of the problem...
It seems to me to be in the very nature of the high acheiving athletic beast is to to shoot for the stars...We tell our players that to earn a spot they have to be incredibly competitive. We tell our players that part of being competitive is not for a minute believing that the guy in front of them is any better than they are...
Then, at the same time that we want them to realistically judge their talent?
Am I the only one who sees a mixed message?...
While I agree that I am overstating it, and it may indeed be possible to walk that razors edge...it seems to me that we are giving the players mixed messages.
No one tells their player, "OK Junior, go out fight hard...but you know of course that realistically you don't belong here."
While I understand the financial and emotional fallout...There is a part of me that says that the kids have worked incredibly hard...yea, you darn well better do your research and be smart, but at some point but heck, let's let junior take his shot. Let him shoot for the stars. He can handle the results. Good or bad. It's all about the lessons in the end anyway.
JMO, and after work I am willing to be swayed...
My normal, contrary opinion....As I observe it....herein lies a part of the problem...
It seems to me to be in the very nature of the high acheiving athletic beast is to to shoot for the stars...We tell our players that to earn a spot they have to be incredibly competitive. We tell our players that part of being competitive is not for a minute believing that the guy in front of them is any better than they are...
Then, at the same time that we want them to realistically judge their talent?
Am I the only one who sees a mixed message?...
While I agree that I am overstating it, and it may indeed be possible to walk that razors edge...it seems to me that we are giving the players mixed messages.
No one tells their player, "OK Junior, go out fight hard...but you know of course that realistically you don't belong here."
While I understand the financial and emotional fallout...There is a part of me that says that the kids have worked incredibly hard...yea, you darn well better do your research and be smart, but at some point but heck, let's let junior take his shot. Let him shoot for the stars. He can handle the results. Good or bad. It's all about the lessons in the end anyway.
JMO, and after work I am willing to be swayed...
.
IFD...
Good post.
.
IFD...
Good post.
.
infielddad and observer - some classic observations.
Is there a paradox here observer? You bet there is. That is why I use the phrase "let the chips fall where they may." Will I be hurt if my son never plays? You bet I will. Did I encourage him to shoot for the stars? You bet. We/he could lose everything (baseball wise). We'll see. He also may gain something regardless of the baseball outcome. Life indeed is a risky business.
Is there a paradox here observer? You bet there is. That is why I use the phrase "let the chips fall where they may." Will I be hurt if my son never plays? You bet I will. Did I encourage him to shoot for the stars? You bet. We/he could lose everything (baseball wise). We'll see. He also may gain something regardless of the baseball outcome. Life indeed is a risky business.
CD, wish I knew those things when my son was a senior in high school, not just finishing his 2nd year in Milb. 
I very much respect the approach that your son and family has taken. In a certain sense, this thread begins by questioning the propriety of schools who over recruit or stockpile. It has transitioned from there. I think your approach of fully accepting responsibility for your decisions, and that of O44, going at life's choices with a passion and zeal, will work best for your sons no matter what the outcome.
I very much respect the approach that your son and family has taken. In a certain sense, this thread begins by questioning the propriety of schools who over recruit or stockpile. It has transitioned from there. I think your approach of fully accepting responsibility for your decisions, and that of O44, going at life's choices with a passion and zeal, will work best for your sons no matter what the outcome.
quote:IMO, even the best of college coaches is quite hampered in accurately estimating which of his recruits will be able to succeed when they encounter the rigors of college life and baseball...and which head home with the roommates belongings.
A few kids just don't get it and think that being a "top prospect" is good enough to earn their way, only to find out nobody cares what you did last year, at any level.
Coaches can size up a player from the distance but they can't see the size of his heart or tensile strength of his guts.
No player ever got anywhere playing it safe and not taking chances, Jerry Ford has said many times big leaguers, some alot less talented than others have always taken chances and done the extraordinary to get noticed, called upon strenght they didn't know they had.
I always refer back to shrimpy David Eckstine. He doesn't really throw very well, doesn't hit for power. He sure is a pain if your are pitching to him and he's got a ring.
quote:10 years ago, coaches would use those games to afford playing time more equally throughout a roster. Now, teams cannot afford a mid week loss because it will affect them for post season play and affect them a lot.
....especially if the strength of schedule is that of a second tier conference mid-major needing 45 wins for an at large bid.
quote:I always refer back to shrimpy David Eckstine. He doesn't really throw very well, doesn't hit for power.
Dad04, please take it easy on poor David. Several media types who cover the Blue Jays minor league system have mentioned our son in the same sentence as Eckstein. So in our eyes, Eckstein is 6'2", has a cannon for an arm and runs the 60 is 6.6.
David certainly plays bigger than he is. There is no better role model for heart and "want to". He just would not listen to "no". Still won't.
I am sitting about 10 miles from his high school.
I am sitting about 10 miles from his high school.
That is what the media talked about, that there might be similarities in terms of "heart" and "effort" and "desire." We know that the media loves an underdog and there is an awfully long way to go but as a parent, that comparison sure feels good.
infielddad, observer, others...all very good posts that demonstrate the diversity of operation out there. Be aware, be smart, do the best you can by knowing what you're headed into.
Have been reading this thread and realized that a lot of this information might offer consolation to the many many players out there that did not sign during the early period.
I know last year my son did not sign until April and he was very disappointed that he wasn't one of the chosen that had been heavily recruited by the top tier schools. As it turns out maybe that wasn't such a bad thing. By April he had a much better idea of how many early recruits had signed, he could make a much more informed choice about his chances for playing time, he knew that the coach really wanted him specifically and wasn't trying to lock up a top prospect in the early signing period. He had more time to make a decision.
Hopefully other readers out there that didn't get signed early will realize it isn't the end of the world if you haven't made a choice yet. A lot can happen not only for the player but also at the potential college choices that will influence and improve your odds at the next level. Don't let not signing now have a negative impact on your performance this spring because sometimes later is better.
I know last year my son did not sign until April and he was very disappointed that he wasn't one of the chosen that had been heavily recruited by the top tier schools. As it turns out maybe that wasn't such a bad thing. By April he had a much better idea of how many early recruits had signed, he could make a much more informed choice about his chances for playing time, he knew that the coach really wanted him specifically and wasn't trying to lock up a top prospect in the early signing period. He had more time to make a decision.
Hopefully other readers out there that didn't get signed early will realize it isn't the end of the world if you haven't made a choice yet. A lot can happen not only for the player but also at the potential college choices that will influence and improve your odds at the next level. Don't let not signing now have a negative impact on your performance this spring because sometimes later is better.
The NCAA's scholarship rule as it is requires schools to be at 11.7 by their third competition. (Some have as many as 18+ during the fall). They have the two new proposals on the table 1) Raising the scholarship # to 14 and 2) Giving 28 tuition only scholarships.
This later one would really put the "over-recruiting" on the shelf and level the playing field instate vs out of state. 28 roster spots all full tuition equal scholarships regardless of amount... I can't see a favorable vote by the schools on that one.
This later one would really put the "over-recruiting" on the shelf and level the playing field instate vs out of state. 28 roster spots all full tuition equal scholarships regardless of amount... I can't see a favorable vote by the schools on that one.
I probably just have a mental block here (nothing new 
), but I don't see how 28 tuition only scholarships levels the playing field. Seems to me it would increase the problem being discussed?
Why do I say that? It seems to me that with 28 tuition scholarships, a top-tier baseball school could stockpile talent even further...even recruit to keep fairly talented players away from the 2nd tier schools. I'm thinking that very talented player "Joe" who is good enough to play all the time at a mid-major gets one of the 28 to a national power. With stars in his eyes, Joe takes one of those 28 at NationalPower U. only to go through Fall workouts and find out he is #28 whereas he could have been #5 at the mid-major.
Now aren't we back to where we started in this thread? Too many players at NationalPower U. and talented Joe sitting on the bench...losing a valuable playing year of baseball?
), but I don't see how 28 tuition only scholarships levels the playing field. Seems to me it would increase the problem being discussed?Why do I say that? It seems to me that with 28 tuition scholarships, a top-tier baseball school could stockpile talent even further...even recruit to keep fairly talented players away from the 2nd tier schools. I'm thinking that very talented player "Joe" who is good enough to play all the time at a mid-major gets one of the 28 to a national power. With stars in his eyes, Joe takes one of those 28 at NationalPower U. only to go through Fall workouts and find out he is #28 whereas he could have been #5 at the mid-major.
Now aren't we back to where we started in this thread? Too many players at NationalPower U. and talented Joe sitting on the bench...losing a valuable playing year of baseball?
I know that it is disappointing to not be "signed early".
Not everyone does, in fact very few actually do.
Here are some stats taken from the NCAA and posted elsewhere on this site:
Playing in College
High School seniors = 114,159
College "seniors" (or sophomores when related to juco's) = 13,137
That means their are 114,159 graduating high seniors versus 13,137 slots open
114,159/13,137 = 10.1
1 high school player in every 10 has a chance to play in college
I am not sure, but in my mind, the top 25-50 D1's are the early signers.
But for the purposes that I am about to show, let's say it is the top 100 schools and they all early sign 20 players. (A generous assumption, I hope)
That means that about 2,000 players would be signed early.
According to those stats referred to above, there are about 13,000 spots.
So, 11,000 "chairs" remain to be filled out of 13,000 available "chairs".
85% of the "chairs" are not taken, right now, while the music plays......................
Find a chair.
And I ran across an article today about Roger Clemens.
Here is part of it:
The only man to ever win more than five Cy Young Awards, Clemens ranks second to Nolan Ryan, the 2004 Texas Legends Award recipient, with 4,502 career strikeouts and is ninth all-time with 341 victories. He has posted 20 or more wins six times with 12 200-strikeout seasons over a 22-year big league career with the Red Sox, Blue Jays, Yankees, and Astros. The Houston area resident starred at Spring Woods High School, San Jacinto Junior College, and the University of Texas before beginning his remarkable professional career.
I added the emphasis to San Jacinto Junior College.
Not everyone does, in fact very few actually do.
Here are some stats taken from the NCAA and posted elsewhere on this site:
Playing in College
High School seniors = 114,159
College "seniors" (or sophomores when related to juco's) = 13,137
That means their are 114,159 graduating high seniors versus 13,137 slots open
114,159/13,137 = 10.1
1 high school player in every 10 has a chance to play in college
I am not sure, but in my mind, the top 25-50 D1's are the early signers.
But for the purposes that I am about to show, let's say it is the top 100 schools and they all early sign 20 players. (A generous assumption, I hope)
That means that about 2,000 players would be signed early.
According to those stats referred to above, there are about 13,000 spots.
So, 11,000 "chairs" remain to be filled out of 13,000 available "chairs".
85% of the "chairs" are not taken, right now, while the music plays......................
Find a chair.
And I ran across an article today about Roger Clemens.
Here is part of it:
The only man to ever win more than five Cy Young Awards, Clemens ranks second to Nolan Ryan, the 2004 Texas Legends Award recipient, with 4,502 career strikeouts and is ninth all-time with 341 victories. He has posted 20 or more wins six times with 12 200-strikeout seasons over a 22-year big league career with the Red Sox, Blue Jays, Yankees, and Astros. The Houston area resident starred at Spring Woods High School, San Jacinto Junior College, and the University of Texas before beginning his remarkable professional career.
I added the emphasis to San Jacinto Junior College.
justbaseball:
FO:
Bingo Why sit behind other players and maybe never get a shot at the schools that stockpile, when this is an option? I've talked to many who would not even consider this it, who later regretted not choosing to do this (one a current senior at UK)
quote:Too many players at NationalPower U. and talented Joe sitting on the bench...losing a valuable playing year of baseball?
FO:
quote:I added the emphasis to San Jacinto Junior College.
Bingo
Why sit behind other players and maybe never get a shot at the schools that stockpile, when this is an option? I've talked to many who would not even consider this it, who later regretted not choosing to do this (one a current senior at UK) quote:So, 11,000 "chairs" remain to be filled out of 13,000 available "chairs".
...every 4 years, or 2,750 per year.
quote:College "seniors" (or sophomores when related to juco's) = 13,137
Naw, there are 13,137 seniors or colleges sophs every year.
And there is really more than that, if you count the ones that quit, flunk out, knock their GF up, get hurt, arrested, drug rehab, get homesick, and some just can't play.
quote:And there is really more than that, if you count the ones that quit, flunk out, knock their GF up, get hurt, arrested, drug rehab, get homesick, and some just can't play.
FO, there are 67 replies and 2,207 views trying to understand "stockpiling." Think you captured the reasons in one sentence.
Could have saved a lot of memory on the old server if this was posted first.
infielddad -
quote:And there is really more than that, if you count the ones that quit, flunk out, knock their GF up, get hurt, arrested, drug rehab, get homesick, and some just can't play.
Very true. Sometimes when you are making plans, life happens.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Coach Merc:
They have the two new proposals on the table 1) Raising the scholarship # to 14 and 2) Giving 28 tuition only scholarships.
JMO, but from my short time as a college parent and what I see, coaches will never agree to this, because not all players and their positions are created equally.
IFD,
Thanks for a summary for the observations and things discussed here. Your #3 summation is most important for all to understand. One thing to add in defense of coaches, most do NOT expect most freshman to perform on the same level as an upperclassman. That's why transfers are brought in unexpectedly. In a big program (or any program) there is a lot to learn and adjustments to make, on the field and off. By giving them some opportunity for limited play as a freshman, a year to mature and get bigger, stronger ,smarter the coach has done right by the player. I would say 85% of freshman are NOT ready for the experience.
CD,
I believe there can never be enough pitchers, especially for teams that go deep into post season play. Injury, fatigue takes a great toll during the year, I sould think a normal roster should have 15-17 pitchers. I'd rather see a young pitcher fit well into the rotation, get stronger, have good instruction and put in limited innings as a freshman, more as a sophomore and take on workload as a junior or senior. You do not want your pitcher to be the workhorse as a freshman or even a sophomore, he won't be much use when he is a junior when it really counts. Unfortunetly there is not much we can do about it if he is, but limited playing time for a pitcher is not a bad thing.
JMO.
O44,
It's our job as parents, coaches to help build self confidance in a younger player, to bring out the best in him so that he can develop into the player HE wishes to be. It is not done by telling him how much better he is than the next player, because as he reaches the next level (let's say in this case college baseball), chances are he is NOT going to be better than the player in front of him. Any parent that tells his son he is better than anyone else is doing an injustice to him.
Every player that has secured a college scholarhip is there because he earned that right to be there, along with, according to my understanding, as much as about 50 others. I think the message here is that it's something that has to be discussed and considered when choosing a school. All too many players and parents get star struck and go on a recruiting high when the letters and calls start coming in from one school after another from the Big schools, not realizing the negative implications and disappointement it can bring later on. You can tell your son how great he is because he got these letters, calls, NLI, but chances are you and he will have an unbelievable reality check come draft time or the day he sets foot on the field.
I said it before, my wise friend Prepster said it best. Your kid thinks he is a stud, comes to school to find 35 others are studs, and then, the team who comes to play has brought another 25 studs.
They have the two new proposals on the table 1) Raising the scholarship # to 14 and 2) Giving 28 tuition only scholarships.
JMO, but from my short time as a college parent and what I see, coaches will never agree to this, because not all players and their positions are created equally.
IFD,
Thanks for a summary for the observations and things discussed here. Your #3 summation is most important for all to understand. One thing to add in defense of coaches, most do NOT expect most freshman to perform on the same level as an upperclassman. That's why transfers are brought in unexpectedly. In a big program (or any program) there is a lot to learn and adjustments to make, on the field and off. By giving them some opportunity for limited play as a freshman, a year to mature and get bigger, stronger ,smarter the coach has done right by the player. I would say 85% of freshman are NOT ready for the experience.
CD,
I believe there can never be enough pitchers, especially for teams that go deep into post season play. Injury, fatigue takes a great toll during the year, I sould think a normal roster should have 15-17 pitchers. I'd rather see a young pitcher fit well into the rotation, get stronger, have good instruction and put in limited innings as a freshman, more as a sophomore and take on workload as a junior or senior. You do not want your pitcher to be the workhorse as a freshman or even a sophomore, he won't be much use when he is a junior when it really counts. Unfortunetly there is not much we can do about it if he is, but limited playing time for a pitcher is not a bad thing.
JMO.
O44,
It's our job as parents, coaches to help build self confidance in a younger player, to bring out the best in him so that he can develop into the player HE wishes to be. It is not done by telling him how much better he is than the next player, because as he reaches the next level (let's say in this case college baseball), chances are he is NOT going to be better than the player in front of him. Any parent that tells his son he is better than anyone else is doing an injustice to him.
Every player that has secured a college scholarhip is there because he earned that right to be there, along with, according to my understanding, as much as about 50 others. I think the message here is that it's something that has to be discussed and considered when choosing a school. All too many players and parents get star struck and go on a recruiting high when the letters and calls start coming in from one school after another from the Big schools, not realizing the negative implications and disappointement it can bring later on. You can tell your son how great he is because he got these letters, calls, NLI, but chances are you and he will have an unbelievable reality check come draft time or the day he sets foot on the field.
I said it before, my wise friend Prepster said it best. Your kid thinks he is a stud, comes to school to find 35 others are studs, and then, the team who comes to play has brought another 25 studs.
quote:Originally posted by Coach Merc:
They have the two new proposals on the table 1) Raising the scholarship # to 14 and 2) Giving 28 tuition only scholarships.
quote:Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
JMO, but from my short time as a college parent and what I see, coaches will never agree to this, because not all players and their positions are created equally.
TPM,
I like the second option and it seems to me that the coaches would too. Consider the case of Duke, where tuition is about $30,000 per year. Duke is not exactly a baseball powerhouse and I am sure that the cost is prohibitive to the vast majority of HS athlete households. Parents have to make up the difference. Don't you think that the Duke coach would jump at the chance to give 28 $30K scholarships? Or Vandy? Tulane? Stanford?
Even the low tuition schools would be able to give out more scholarship dollars. I'm a Mississippi State fan. In todays paper, the in-state tuition was listed as $4,312 per semester, up from $3,117 just 4 years ago. That's pennies compared to Vandy, Duke, Tulane, Stanford, and a lot of others, but it is an increase of 25% in just 4 years. There is a lot of concern about minorities and expecially innercity kids not playing college baseball due to the lack of available dollars. Wouldn't this plan perhaps be a major boom for that issue?
Jax,
I would imagine some schools would love it, but most others would not. This is all my opinion.
Most schools only have one ot two players that are given big scholarhips. With the way the competition has become, schools need to use these scholarhsips to pull in the best players.
And in my opinion, it's easier to let someone go than let him sit on the bench with a full scholarship, you would see more and more kids getting bumped than you do now, with no place to go. If you were given a full scholarhip at ABCU and didn't get the job done, XYZU is not going to even bother to speak with you.
Schools like UM, Vandy, Tulane, Stanford have NO problem in recruiting because they have good solid programs, despite the costs. Duke is prohibitive to most households, based solely on the type of students accepted to the school.
The big schools also have no problem in helping out students where scholarships can't because of HUGE endowments given to their atheletic departments. The schools that suffer are the ones that do no have this extra moeny, mainly due to their size. Alumni giving is not equal at all institutions.
Coaches work their scholarships around budgets. It's a lot easier to budget on 300K a year vs 100K, depite 11.7. They work in dollar amounts, if they want someone they will make it work. I would rather see the rich NCAA give money to these type of schools so they could attract more talent and have a better program. Giving 28 full scholarhsips will not improve programs.
My son chose his school based on facility, education,reputation, campus, location, scholarship last.
I would imagine some schools would love it, but most others would not. This is all my opinion.
Most schools only have one ot two players that are given big scholarhips. With the way the competition has become, schools need to use these scholarhsips to pull in the best players.
And in my opinion, it's easier to let someone go than let him sit on the bench with a full scholarship, you would see more and more kids getting bumped than you do now, with no place to go. If you were given a full scholarhip at ABCU and didn't get the job done, XYZU is not going to even bother to speak with you.
Schools like UM, Vandy, Tulane, Stanford have NO problem in recruiting because they have good solid programs, despite the costs. Duke is prohibitive to most households, based solely on the type of students accepted to the school.
The big schools also have no problem in helping out students where scholarships can't because of HUGE endowments given to their atheletic departments. The schools that suffer are the ones that do no have this extra moeny, mainly due to their size. Alumni giving is not equal at all institutions.
Coaches work their scholarships around budgets. It's a lot easier to budget on 300K a year vs 100K, depite 11.7. They work in dollar amounts, if they want someone they will make it work. I would rather see the rich NCAA give money to these type of schools so they could attract more talent and have a better program. Giving 28 full scholarhsips will not improve programs.
My son chose his school based on facility, education,reputation, campus, location, scholarship last.
How many schools are actually able/willing to fund the 11.7 now? If they can't or won't fund those, would they fund more? Not that I wouldn't like it to be an option, just discussing.
I also would think private school that are willing to fund 28 scholly's would like the proposal. Not all schools are willing to spend the extra money though. The other schools that would benefit from the second option are state schools without state funded tuition reembursement programs like TOPS in LA, Bright Futures in FL or HOPE in GA.
quote:Originally posted by lafmom:
How many schools are actually able/willing to fund the 11.7 now? If they can't or won't fund those, would they fund more? Not that I wouldn't like it to be an option, just discussing.
Good point. If the cannot fund 11.7 how can they fund 28?
Basically your 11.7 full scholarships would equal almost 20 tuition on scholarships. The option of 14 would almost equal the 28. The interesting thing is there would be no dividing, no alumni funds, no partials, no fianacial aid/academic combinations. The school could only have 28 players getting equal baseball money (tuition only), no room, board, books or fees. each player would have the same expense. Not the 35-50 players as it is now.
How does this over-recruiting start? Do the schools bring in say 20 kids and there scholarship percentages are at say 5.5 with whole team at say 15. Do they now have to get down to the 11.7 by the spring semester?How can they legally be more than the alloted 11.7? Not everyone is on athletic money but these schools must still be over there alloted number.
Schools that overrecruit hr21 will bring in about 20 kids a year and many of them will be there for books or a guaranteed roster spot. You can stretch scholarships a long way doing this. I think it's a personal decision for families as far as finances. I've known kids that have signed for "roster spots" that could have easily gone to other schools for a nice scholly. It's a personal choice and once again I think kids/parents need to know what they're up against.
I will say hr that there are other schools as well that might dole out book only money - but that's because they fund perhaps 5 scholarships, etc. Also, some fully funded schools save their money for pitchers and maybe a very few blue chip players. So, a small offer doesn't necessarily equate with a school that over recruits.
I will say hr that there are other schools as well that might dole out book only money - but that's because they fund perhaps 5 scholarships, etc. Also, some fully funded schools save their money for pitchers and maybe a very few blue chip players. So, a small offer doesn't necessarily equate with a school that over recruits.