Here's something wrong with America

RJM, agree 110%

What a bunch of selfish knuckleheads. Luckily, I don't think the average college player is like that.

A lot of this comes from these kids being told how great they are from the time the step on a field. Treated like super stars and pampered like royalty. When they finally don't get what they want they act like a child who was told no at the candy store. Now what's going to happen to these kids when they get to college and they are told no? Or when something doesn't go the way they think it should go?

This is simply pathetic. They should have ZERO say in what number they get. Any of them. They should just hand out the jersey's and if they don't like it they can go home. If they whine about a jersey number I can just imagine what else they will whine and cry about. This kind of stuff irks the heck out of me.

I lay the blame for ridiculous behavior like this squarely on the parents...or lack of parenting. When the me, me me nonsense started years earlier it should have been stopped immediately.

I agree with all that's been said, but I do recall back in the 70's when I was recruited for college football, some coaches would tell players that they'd get their high school number as part of the recruiting deal. But when you get to college, and you're a lowly freshman, surrounded by the upper class veterans, you take what you get and keep your mouth

quote:

fillsfan said....I lay the blame for ridiculous behavior like this squarely on the parents...or lack of parenting. When the me, me me nonsense started years earlier it should have been stopped immediately.

I agree 100%. Kids need boundaries, and to be taught acceptable forms of behavior. If they don't like there jersey number, they should be handed directions to the nearest Greyhound Bus Terminal or airport.

Unfortunetly this has been going on for too long in college and professional sports. Last nigh Trent Dilfer, Tim Hasslebeck and Chris Mortensen were talking about "knuckleheads" on NFL teams and how they need to be dealt with. Specificially, Santonio Holmes (and his ilk) had run rampant in the Jets locker room unchecked. When the inmates run the asylum in the NFL you finish 8-8. They went on to say that it was an organization problem as Rex Ryan and Mike Tannenbaum let this behavior continue. This is what happens when no one is in charge or there is no authority figure.

Don't blame America! For every one of these knuckleheads there are thousands of good kids that go unreported on because they don't make waves.
There are also many thousands more over seas putting their lives on the line for our butts every day.

America is just fine.

No, I woulnd't blame America either. I'd blame their parents, T.O., Randy Moss, LeBron James, Allen Iverson, etc.

We've had this conversation before. Under Armor has some sort of all star HS football game. The one and only time I watched it, they were featuring a couple of big time prospects who were going to announce their college selection during the game.

One of the players sat at a table with three or four ballcaps, representing his top three or four schools. He picked up one ballcap, held it for a second as the fans cheered his selection. Then he chucked the hat off the stage. He did this until he ended up with his choice school.

Totally classless and disrespectful.

We need a lot more Emmett Smiths and Walter Paytons.

quote:

This is simply pathetic. They should have ZERO say in what number they get. Any of them. They should just hand out the jersey's and if they don't like it they can go home.

I agree that this is pathetic but I don't see a problem with requesting a number.

My son was born 12/12 so he took '12' in LL and travel ball. When he changed travel teams he asked for '12'. They gave him '23'. That was cool, Jordan's number. In HS he asked for '12'. They gave him '19'. That was cool. Bob Feller and Tony Gwynn.

I don't see a problem with asking...but the attitude needs to be 'it's all good'...

Pretty simple , you ask for a number if you don't get it , say thanks for trying coach , I am honored to be here when many other kids couldn't be . Thanks for the opportunity , i'll work my tail off . Too many of these brats feel they are entitled to be top dog . Play the game , work hard and forget about the number on the back and be proud of the name on the front .

Texting behind the bench

Another example of being a spoiled brat.

I agree that there are way more good kids than spoiled / entitled ones but they just aren't as interesting as the bad ones.

They are who we make them to be. While the biggest culprit is parents not setting boundaries or telling their kids no there are MANY other factors that go into creating this attitude. Schools happen to be another huge factor in this. It's getting to the point where a kid can't fail a class anymore if they don't perform in the classroom.

I do think it will get worse before it gets better.

Someone said this isn't a problem in America. I disagree. It's the parents. It's the deemphasis on competition. It's the elimination of keeping score until kids are older. It's about participation trophies for losing. It's about parents, teachers and ooaches telling kids they are wonderful every time they fail. It's about making the challenge easier rather than challenging the kids.

I went to Occupy Boston several times to talk with the handful of intellgent people. The recent college graduates felt their degree entitled them to a job. They got upset when I told them the degree only invites them to the converation (interview) for a job.

Both these football players and the college kids at Occupy represent the direction this country is heading. The positive side to all this is all of us here who have raised our kids to compete, earn the win and respect the win will not have trouble beating out these kids for jobs, success, and happiness and life.

Happens in baseball all the time, players pay other players for their # IF that player will give it up... many won't

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Someone said this isn't a problem in America. I disagree. It's the parents. It's the deemphasis on competition. It's the elimination of keeping score until kids are older. It's about participation trophies for losing. It's about parents, teachers and ooaches telling kids they are wonderful every time they fail. It's about making the challenge easier rather than challenging the kids.

I went to Occupy Boston several times to talk with the handful of intellgent people. The recent college graduates felt their degree entitled them to a job. They got upset when I told them the degree only invites them to the converation (interview) for a job.

Both these football players and the college kids at Occupy represent the direction this country is heading. The positive side to all this is all of us here who have raised our kids to compete, earn the win and respect the win will not have trouble beating out these kids for jobs, success, and happiness and life.

Hope and change baby. Hope and change.

quote:

Originally posted by njbb:
Happens in baseball all the time, players pay other players for their # IF that player will give it up... many won't

That's correct. Ny son always perfers his college number, if it's not available no big deal, I htink that this is not unusual for most.

The article only gave a few examples, and most likely those players want everything the way they likr it, not just in their sport. As far as the comments about graduates thinking they deserve to be employed, I don't know of anyone that doesn't understand the interview process and how tough it is to find a job these days.
In stating this is the direction that America is headed, I don't necessarily agree as to it being the majority.

JMO.

This isn't a big deal.

If something is important enough to him for him to decide where he goes to school then who cares. If he thought the girls were prettier somehere and that drove his decision most of us would think that's dumb too. Part of being 18 is that you go through a phase where you are misguided and make bad decisions and learn and do better in the future.

The team vs me stuff is nonsense. I Wonder what will happen if he blows out the ACL and can't play anymore. Will the school continue to give him his scholarship? Will they even give him the time of day? I doubt it. These kids are meat for the grinder. When he can't play anymore the next kid that wants his number will get it if the coach thinks he can help him win.

For most kids at the level of the Army All Star game college is a way station to a run at the NFL. They shouldn't care about the team, coach, school or anything else. They should be focused on what's best for them until they get to the NFL. If he makes it then all is forgiven and if he doesn't then he is a selfish jerk.

Everybody loves a winner.

It is bad and getting worse. Really makes you want to get into coaching.

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
This isn't a big deal.

If something is important enough to him for him to decide where he goes to school then who cares. If he thought the girls were prettier somehere and that drove his decision most of us would think that's dumb too. Part of being 18 is that you go through a phase where you are misguided and make bad decisions and learn and do better in the future.

The team vs me stuff is nonsense. I Wonder what will happen if he blows out the ACL and can't play anymore. Will the school continue to give him his scholarship? Will they even give him the time of day? I doubt it. These kids are meat for the grinder. When he can't play anymore the next kid that wants his number will get it if the coach thinks he can help him win.

For most kids at the level of the Army All Star game college is a way station to a run at the NFL. They shouldn't care about the team, coach, school or anything else. They should be focused on what's best for them until they get to the NFL. If he makes it then all is forgiven and if he doesn't then he is a selfish jerk.

Everybody loves a winner.

Then they get to the NFL, make a tackle and do a "Look at me. I made a tackle" jig. When the player becomes more important than the team there's something wrong. If every player acts this way you don't have a team anymore. All you have is a collection of unleadable individuals. The kid doesn't run for a touchdown without the quarterback throwing him the ball. The quarterback doesn't throw the ball without the line blocking for him. The offense doesn't have the ball unless the defense gets it back for them. This isn't accomplished by a bunch of individuals all looking out for their own best interests.

"Get out of my face coach! I could get hurt taking out the pulling guard. No one's here to see me take out the pulling guard so the corner can get all the glory making the tackle. There are scouts here checking out how wonderful I am."

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
This isn't a big deal.

If something is important enough to him for him to decide where he goes to school then who cares. If he thought the girls were prettier somehere and that drove his decision most of us would think that's dumb too. Part of being 18 is that you go through a phase where you are misguided and make bad decisions and learn and do better in the future.

The team vs me stuff is nonsense. I Wonder what will happen if he blows out the ACL and can't play anymore. Will the school continue to give him his scholarship? Will they even give him the time of day? I doubt it. These kids are meat for the grinder. When he can't play anymore the next kid that wants his number will get it if the coach thinks he can help him win.

For most kids at the level of the Army All Star game college is a way station to a run at the NFL. They shouldn't care about the team, coach, school or anything else. They should be focused on what's best for them until they get to the NFL. If he makes it then all is forgiven and if he doesn't then he is a selfish jerk.

Everybody loves a winner.

I think I just might disagree with every single word in this post.

Attitude and Chemistry: The Patriots brought in Albert Haynesworth and Chad Ochocinco as projects this year. Ochocinco behaved. Haynesworth was a PITA. When the Patriots released Haynesworth they were 5-3. They never lost another game. The Buccaneers picked up Haynesworth. They didn't win another game. Coincidence? Possibly. But players stay with the Patriots for less money and conduct themselves "The Patriot Way."

The Patriot Way is it's all about the team. When Ochocinco was asked about his lost season he responded, "Lost? I'm on a Super Bowl contender."

RJM don't forget Randy Moss as another diva who learned to behave after being a distraction on other teams.

Either get with the program or get gone.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
RJM don't forget Randy Moss as another diva who learned to behave after being a distraction on other teams.

Either get with the program or get gone.

Moss went back to being a distraction with the Patriots. He was shown the door. It left the Patriots without a deep threat. Two and a half seasons later they still haven't found his replacement. It doesn't look like the Patriots offense has suffered. I can't imagine how destructive Gronkowsi and Hernandez would be over the middle with a quality burner on the outside spreading the field. What has surprised people about Ochocinco is how well he blocks downfield. He's doing what he can to be valuable when he's in the game.

I blame the parents. I blame the coaches in some instances as well. In the mad rush to get the next "Big Time" 5 Star recruit sometimes these coachs sell out. In fact I know they do. They tell the #1 Ranked Safety out of so and so that if he would grace them with his presence he can have his choice of number. He will be on his way to the NFL. He is so good and is going to take them to the next level and he is blah blah blah. All in an attempt to get enough of these 4 and 5 Star recruits in his program so he can win and keep his job or get a better job. Then the kid gets to campus and the pressure is on the coach to "keep" these guys happy because you don't want to lose street cred with the next group coming up. Nothing hurts worse than having a former 5 star sitting the pine behind a kid who was not. You know you dont want that 5 star tweeting how he got screw ed over by the program and lied to. The coach ends up having to compromise what he really believes in order to win or keep the pipeline open for the future 5 star. The players end up running the program.

Big time money is on the way to destroying what its supposed to be about. I am not painting all coaches with this brush. But it is a fact that many are in this boat. When the coaches stop the players will stop. When the coaches stop putting up with this stuff the players will as well in most cases. When college is simply looked upon as a stepping stone to the next level what do you expect to happen?

The pressure to win and the pressure to bring in players you think can help you win can cause some coaches to compromise. These players see themselves as bigger than the program and bigger than the school. I wonder why they get that impression? Its really not that hard to figure out.

I luv the the team first discussion. With the exception of War or survival it's un-American. We spent 50 years in the Cold War over the concept that individual rights and freedom is better than the collective. I believe that is true and it extends to kids playing sports acting like idiots.

The NFL will dump you even if you are a model citizen if it becomes a "business" decision. Let's see if Peyton Manning gets the same treatment Namath, Montana and Unitas got at the end of their careers. It's in the best interest of the "team" to dump him...becasue he is just another piece of meat and a younger version has come along.

How many people stay with their employer (team) if they can double their pay somewhere else? Unless there are mitigating factors such as travel, relocation or work conditions most people are gone.

America works best when people do what is best for them individually within the law. It is when we move away from that and start messing around with things to try to do what's best for segments of the population or the "team" that things start going wrong.

So....Individual Good / Team Bad.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
You know you dont want that 5 star tweeting how he got screw ed over by the program and lied to.

Coach May, I think this may be what some NFL players are doing, indirectly, during their self-introductions on Sunday Night Football. Instead of announcing their college, they shout out to their high school or pop warner team. Maybe, it is just their individuality, but sometimes I wonder if there is bad blood with the college or coach, because, to me, it's kind of a slight.

Coach May: I just read an excellent article that quoted bill snyder of K-state. He tried to play that 5 star game for a while and not only did it make him sick to his stomach, he wound up wasting time and way too much energy on kids that they either couldn't get or if they did, the structure of 'we all play by the same rules' just didn't work out.

RJM... that Patriot Way is an amazing thing in pro sports today. Ochocinco is about exhibit 24, it is just incredible what bellicheck has been able to do.

trojan-skipper could you post a link to that article? Sounds like a very good read.

I think the Patriot way is awesome too but I wonder what / why it didn't happen in Cleveland when Belicheck was there? I wonder if he tried to put it in but wasn't backed by the organization since they have such a horrible track record in all facets of the game? Or if it was because of being in Cleveland he decided when he got another chance he would do it another way and out of this is born the Patriot Way?

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
I luv the the team first discussion. With the exception of War or survival it's un-American. We spent 50 years in the Cold War over the concept that individual rights and freedom is better than the collective. I believe that is true and it extends to kids playing sports acting like idiots.

The NFL will dump you even if you are a model citizen if it becomes a "business" decision. Let's see if Peyton Manning gets the same treatment Namath, Montana and Unitas got at the end of their careers. It's in the best interest of the "team" to dump him...becasue he is just another piece of meat and a younger version has come along.

How many people stay with their employer (team) if they can double their pay somewhere else? Unless there are mitigating factors such as travel, relocation or work conditions most people are gone.

America works best when people do what is best for them individually within the law. It is when we move away from that and start messing around with things to try to do what's best for segments of the population or the "team" that things start going wrong.

So....Individual Good / Team Bad.

I think we went waaay off topic here.

Hypothetical question here. I would guess you have a son that plays baseball. Let's say he goes on a visit to University of South Carolina. He comes back and you ask how it went. He says "It sucked. they told me I would be the Friday night starter and would play shortstop on days I didnt pitch, while batting third. Also offered me 80%, but I turned it down. I wanted the Number 1, but the punk coach said a senior already had it, so I told him to take his offer and stick it."

I guess you congratulate him for standing up for his individual rights.

Actually, no I wouldn't. He has no right to the number he has a right to make a decision where he goes. I would tell him he was being an idiot. If you read the post fully that's exactly what I said.

I also said in an earlier post that if he thought the girls were prettier somewhere he might want to go there instead of USC in this example and that would be just as dumb.

The topic went off on the team tangent when folks starting talking about the Patriots and players jumping around after a play making it about themselves instead of the team was a problem.

I am guilty of extending the thought and I do believe that the concept of team is waaaaay overrated and that indviduals making decisions that they think are best for themselves and are within the law is the best way for things to work.

I'll ask a rhetorical question in return. Your son has a verbal committment to USC as a pitcher. He makes 140 pitches in 50 degree weather so the team can beat it's most important district rival becasue he is far and away the best pitcher available on the team. The fact that he blows out his elbow on pitch 141 and will never throw again, loses his scholarship becasue USC moves on to the next guy is OK because he was doing it for the team.

Well, honestly I would be rather pi$$ed off about it. I do remember the Cardinals drafting a player from Baylor and during the College World Series later that month that kid threw about 150 pitches or so in a game, and that was after throwing a complete game a few days earlier. I dont think he is in baseball anymore, but I digress.

There is a middle ground in this argument. I see where you are going with the "team first" attitude. And I can see where others are going with their side of the argument. I fall in the middle When you play for a team, you have to know that you will be making sacrifices for the team, and at times you may be upset with certain things, but you are happy with the team sucess. On the same token, you cant let examples like you have happen for the betterment of the team.

Every generation in recorded history believes the suceeding generation is the ruination of civilization.

If you wake up evry day looking to be outraged at some folks behaviour you will certainly find it.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Someone said this isn't a problem in America. I disagree. It's the parents. It's the deemphasis on competition. It's the elimination of keeping score until kids are older. It's about participation trophies for losing. It's about parents, teachers and ooaches telling kids they are wonderful every time they fail. It's about making the challenge easier rather than challenging the kids.

I went to Occupy Boston several times to talk with the handful of intellgent people. The recent college graduates felt their degree entitled them to a job. They got upset when I told them the degree only invites them to the converation (interview) for a job.

Both these football players and the college kids at Occupy represent the direction this country is heading. The positive side to all this is all of us here who have raised our kids to compete, earn the win and respect the win will not have trouble beating out these kids for jobs, success, and happiness and life.

Well put.

quote:

America works best when people do what is best for them individually within the law.

In the scope of the original article I posted, I would call the subject "disrespecting the game." Direspecting the game falls outside the societal norms of the football world. These kids weren't being individuals. They wanted someone to give them something they felt they were entitled to being given.

Unless you work for yourself as a 1099 consultant or rep you will work as an individual within a team concept. Even the person at the top who makes the rules has to get people to buy into the businesses strategy without dominating them, or the people will leave and he won't succeed.

When I was in the corporate world I told my team I expected them to want my job. I wanted the job of the person above me. If they can't get mine there may be one available in another office, region or company. But to get there they have to be a successful individual and be part of a successful team. Sports aren't any different.

quote:

I'll ask a rhetorical question in return. Your son has a verbal committment to USC as a pitcher. He makes 140 pitches in 50 degree weather so the team can beat it's most important district rival becasue he is far and away the best pitcher available on the team. The fact that he blows out his elbow on pitch 141 and will never throw again, loses his scholarship becasue USC moves on to the next guy is OK because he was doing it for the team.

Once you're there and handed the ball, you stay on the mound until they come get you.

During the recruiting process the recruit has to do his homework to determine if a coach has a reputation of using a pitcher in this manner. There's a current coach at a major program where almost all of his top drafted pitchers have arm surgery within three years of leaving his program. There's an SEC program whose former coach had a reputation of blowing up arms.

Once the pitcher is in this situation he has the option of staying and accepting the situation or leaving the program.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
trojan-skipper could you post a link to that article? Sounds like a very good read.

I think the Patriot way is awesome too but I wonder what / why it didn't happen in Cleveland when Belicheck was there? I wonder if he tried to put it in but wasn't backed by the organization since they have such a horrible track record in all facets of the game? Or if it was because of being in Cleveland he decided when he got another chance he would do it another way and out of this is born the Patriot Way?

I believe the Patriot Way starts above Belichick. He does not have power over personnel. He only has input. The Patriot Way starts with Robert Kraft. He's a successful businessman with a dynamic personality. Yet he mostly stays in the shadows. It's his team. The team isn't known for paying well. Yet the players love him. Until two years ago Brady wasn't in the top half of pay for quarterbacks.

Here's an article from the outside looking in. It's about the Chiefs trying to replicate the Patriot Way.

others try to replicate

This article is from today about the revolving door due to injuries and not missing a beat. The Patriots had the most transaction in the NFL this year.

Togetherness matters when players join Patriots

RJM;

I would have to agree with your premise citing this as an example "of something being wrong in America."

As I read through the thread and the examples cited, and add those to my personal experiences, I'm not sure this is a total societal problem.

I mean, we aren't all raising selfish, irresponsible kids. And, not every Coach condones such garbage. There is, however, a "segment of society" or perhaps a few segments that this "I deserve something for nothing or should have what I want, and don't disrespect me by not letting me have it" attitude.

Perhaps their behavior stems from American societal issues; like being raised on welfare, having food and shelter without a need to work for it. Not having a father who insisted on them behaving responsibly and SO FORTH and SO On!

You are right, we don't see it much in baseball, but it's everywhere in football. I know my comments can be construed as racially insensitive but that's not my intention. Nor do I believe the me first attitude is running amock across the Americas.

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
RJM;

As I read through the thread and the examples cited, and add those to my personal experiences, I'm not sure this is a total societal problem.

I mean, we aren't all raising selfish, irresponsible kids. And, not every Coach condones such garbage. There is, however, a "segment of society" or perhaps a few segments that this "I deserve something for nothing or should have what I want, and don't disrespect me by not letting me have it" attitude.

You are right, we don't see it much in baseball, but it's everywhere in football. I know my comments can be construed as racially insensitive but that's not my intention. Nor do I believe the me first attitude is running amock across the Americas.

Coach May has got it right.

I've read this thread and I have to comment. The kids are just fine. You can look back to ancient Greece and one generation was complaining about the worthlessness of the current generation. It has never changed and it never will.

They are kids. And kids are basically stupid. If you think this is bad, what do you think the WWII vets thought of their hippie kids? The hippies turned out all right and so will this generation.

How many of you are doing the same things you did when you were a teenager? Do you know any 40 year olds who still act 18? Do you laugh at them? Do you know more than one? Do you hang out with them? The fact is that almost everyone matures. Some take longer than others(I took till 30). But we all grow up.

To misquote The Who, "The kids are Allright."