High Academic -- SAT/ACT and Timing?

2017 took ACT in June after soph. year. Combination of athletic ability and that ACT score was too low to matter until son took the SAT during January of his junior year (after several months of tutoring). I'm not sure if that January SAT score was what made his athletic ability relevant at many high academics, or if it was just a coincidence.  I do know that SATs/ACTs of 2100/33 or higher, help EVERYONE relax. 

smokeminside posted:

2017 took ACT in June after soph. year. Combination of athletic ability and that ACT score was too low to matter until son took the SAT during January of his junior year (after several months of tutoring). I'm not sure if that January SAT score was what made his athletic ability relevant at many high academics, or if it was just a coincidence.  I do know that SATs/ACTs of 2100/33 or higher, help EVERYONE relax. 

Thanks. Your story illustrates the quandary -- most kids will do significantly better on the standardized tests later (spring of junior year? fall of senior year?) than they will sophomore year.  Particularly if they prep for the test. Similar situation, I guess, to the advice with respect to baseball skills, "don't showcase until you have something to show" . . .

And it's sort of interesting what the College Board has done with the new PSAT/NMSQT test (well, maybe it's not all that new, but they definitely didn't do it when I was in high school) -- the scores are on the same scale as the SAT, and, according to the College Board "shows you how you would have scored that day on the SAT."

So I was thinking a kid could use his PSAT/NMSQT as a proxy -- without having taken the actual SAT or ACT -- and maybe get some credit from the coaches for "projectability"!! LOL  But of course, it would be great to hear if any HSBBW folks used that approach  . . .

With the changes to SAT looming, 2017 focused on the old SAT first and took it November of Junior year, then retook it in January (final version of old test format, which he wanted because he scored 98th percentile in Writing, which was being phased out because apparently nobody cares about writing anymore). After taking a six-week prep course, he scored 200 points higher, so money well spent. 

Then he shifted his attention to ACT and took it in April so that he had both SAT and ACT scores prior to HF in June.  When we figured out that getting just a little bit higher ACT might mean more academic money at the D3's where there is no athletic money, he retook the ACT in September of his Senior and scored 2 points higher.  And sure enough the Net Price Calculators on some college sites are showing more merit money with the higher score.  So again, well worth it to retake it.

I don't think PSAT counts for much other than the chance at National Merit Scholar.  But some of the high academic coaches will start looking at kids based on the high PSAT as a Sophomore and then wait to see the results of the SAT/ACT when they are juniors.  My recommendation is if your son got a strong PSAT score, take the SAT first, and do it early in Junior year.  Leave a few months for a retest, then shift to ACT and get both done before the Summer leading into Senior year.  Several coaches at the academic schools told us they value the test scores much more than GPA.  One told us "GPA will get our attention, but SAT/ACT determines if we stay interested."

Several coaches at the academic schools told us they value the test scores much more than GPA.  One told us "GPA will get our attention, but SAT/ACT determines if we stay interested.

THIS, plus I would add, the full Junior year transcript matters, both for rigor and gpa.  Transcript through sophomore year doesn't seem to provide enough info for the highest academic schools.

Son took SAT during fall of Junior year and score was said to be good enough for target Academic Index.It used to be easy to measure SAT based on PSAT..now things have changed. Spoke to head of guidance last weekend who said new SAT scored are inflated. Students getting into HIGH academics with certain score previously are falling in lower percentiles. If my son were going through now I would probably encourage him to take ACT.

One thing to consider as plans are made: I strongly recommend AGAINST taking the ACT and SAT on back to back weekends.  It wasn't helpful in our experience.  Just to amplify my comments above:  Son took ACT "cold" in June before Jr. year.  Score: 27  Took weekly  hour long lessons with an SAT/ACT prep tutor from Sept through end of November in fall of Jr. year.  Focused primarily on ACT structure, but took SAT first weekend in December 2015. Score: about 1910, for three sections.  Then he took ACT on the very next weekend, the second weekend in December.  Score: a disappointing  28.  He was very frustrated after having spent so much time preparing and having his score go up only one point.

Decided to take the very last offering of the old SAT in late January, 2016.  Figured he didn't have anything to lose since he knew it was highly likely he'd have to take it AGAIN, and the format would change the next time.  Did NOT study at all in the intervening month.  Raised his total SAT to 2140.  Retired from SAT/ACT testing.

I'm convinced that taking the SAT and ACT on back to back weekends was a mistake for my son. He was mentally fatigued after the first test.   One month later, away from the test taking stuff. was a great decision for him. 

I don't want anyone to disagree with me, because I want to be right about something, anything, any one thing in this cray cray process.

My son is a 2018 and has been getting recruited by the high academic schools. We were told by coaches that while his grades were very good they needed to see the standardized test scores. We were also told to take them ASAP (this was in September of this year) so that if the first time the scores were not good he could take the test again. 2018 took the test in October and did well. The response from the schools has been noticeable --  there is an increased intensity now that they are certain he can make it thru admissions.

I'd take the tests early enough such that you have time to study some more and potentially take them again and improve.

Take the tests as early as a kid is ready.  A good use of rising junior summer is to take the prep course while school doesn't intrude. S tested in September junior year.

b i g m a c posted:

I'd take the tests early enough such that you have time to study some more and potentially take them again and improve.

Absolutely. The only caveat is that if a kid is on a slow track in math, he may struggle with the ACT, in particular, as it tends to have more Trig and Algebra 2 questions than  the SAT or PSAT.   (according to my kids' prep tutor )  So taking the test in Sophomore year may not be helpful except as practice.

My son just took the ACT as a Freshman this past weekend with no prep.  Is there a ballpark average of how much an ACT score improves from Freshman to Junior year? 

d-mac posted:

My son just took the ACT as a Freshman this past weekend with no prep.  Is there a ballpark average of how much an ACT score improves from Freshman to Junior year? 

D-Mac,

No idea on data other than my own.  First time he took ACT was spring of sophomore year.  DID NOT STUDY AT ALL.  Took it cold.

Score was not horrible (north of 25), but not what he needed for high academic consideration.  He had two HA- HCs scold him for a less than glowing score.  One even said, "I don't care if you took it cold.......you're a smart kid, I can tell it by looking at you.  I know you can do better."  Priceless!!

Son studied an online ACT program 2nd half of summer.  Took Sept. 10 ACT  earlier this fall.  Added 5-pts and was committed to HA 30-days later.  

d-mac posted:

My son just took the ACT as a Freshman this past weekend with no prep.  Is there a ballpark average of how much an ACT score improves from Freshman to Junior year? 

d-mac, I found this: http://blog.prepscholar.com/wh...rade-act-/-sat-score

It says about 200 points for the SAT and about 5 points for the ACT is an average increase between 9th and 11th grade, so it's pretty significant.

2019Dad posted:

d-mac posted:

My son just took the ACT as a Freshman this past weekend with no prep.  Is there a ballpark average of how much an ACT score improves from Freshman to Junior year? 

d-mac, I found this: http://blog.prepscholar.com/wh...rade-act-/-sat-score

It says about 200 points for the SAT and about 5 points for the ACT is an average increase between 9th and 11th grade, so it's pretty significant.

 

 

Interesting.  5 points could mean very different things to different students.

16  improves to 21.  From possible JC student to possible State U student.

26 improves to 31.  From possible U of State student to possible U of State or good private scholly student.

31 improves to 36. Full ride wherever you wanna go, baby!

I thought schools took the highest score (rather than average them) which is why students will take them as early as their freshman year for practice, student athlete or not.  Is this not true? 

Schools say they will either take the highest single score or some even superscore by taking the best section scores and adding.

S was told by Ivy coaches before Junior year, which scores would clear the bar. (30 ACT min.)

All of the information in this thread is very helpful.

5 point ACT improvement seems about right, I could see that being even more with prep, though. 

Goosegg posted:

Schools say they will either take the highest single score or some even superscore by taking the best section scores and adding.

S was told by Ivy coaches before Junior year, which scores would clear the bar. (30 ACT min.)

Goose, that's a good rule of thumb. Someone -- I don't remember who -- on this Board said that for a RHP, if your top velocity and ACT added up to 120, you were in good shape at an Ivy (e.g., 30 ACT and 90 mph).

The Ivys use something called the Academic Index (AI), which weights standardized test scores and GPA and comes up with a number. The lower the AI, the better you need to be at baseball. Good analysis of it at Tier 1: www.tier1athletics.org/2012/11...ademic-index-number/

And they have a good calculator: www.tier1athletics.org/2012/10...dex-calculator-2016/

Just by way of example, a kid with an ACT of 30, an unweighted GPA of 3.6, and 680 apiece on two SAT subject tests would have an AI of 210, and would be in good shape.

One thing I didn't see in the Tier 1 materials is that each coach needs to deliver a team AI, in addition to the minimum threshold for each individual athlete. What this means is that if a coach wants a stud player with, say, a 180 AI, the coach will likely need to balance that with a recruit with a really, really high AI. Net, net, the higher your AI, the better off you are.

So, back to the original question.....High Academic -- SAT/ACT and Timing?

My two cents and experience....the higher the baseball level the recruit is being considered for high academic schools, the sooner he needs to have his academic house in order.  Some D1 recruits are being genuinely considered for Stanford, Ivys, others and it is a great idea to have those ACT/SAT ready to compare offers that can be coming in from other power conference D1s.  In addition, the more traditional power D1 academic schools are recruiting earlier and earlier.  I'd suggest late soph year or early junior year IF the recruit is ready.  We are talking about a small number of recruits nationally.   

Other recruits that are not getting that genuine level of D1 power conference interest can wait until early junior year or whenever they are ready to take the SAT for high academic schools.  These recruits will be in communication with some D1 mid-majors, Ivys, Patriot and D3.

JMO and experience.

2019Dad posted:

Goosegg posted:

Schools say they will either take the highest single score or some even superscore by taking the best section scores and adding.

S was told by Ivy coaches before Junior year, which scores would clear the bar. (30 ACT min.)

Goose, that's a good rule of thumb. Someone -- I don't remember who -- on this Board said that for a RHP, if your top velocity and ACT added up to 120, you were in good shape at an Ivy (e.g., 30 ACT and 90 mph).

 

2019Dad,

That was me.  Just an armchair theory of mine, that an RHP with an ACT of 30 + FB of 90 = 120, and a ticket to just about anywhere you want.  The Golden #120 is what I call it.  It really is the number an RHP seeking HA-D1 school should shoot for, but not 100% necessary.  Mine only got to #118 (sum of his FB and ACT) at the time of his commitment.  I've seen other HA-D1commits (RHPs) with as low as #114 (based on PG posted data, could be old #s too)  But the Golden #120 need to only serve as a goal, a target.  

If an RHP hits it?  Great.  He can pick just about any school he wants.  If he falls short by 2-4pts, he is still in a good position.  #114 could mean 86FB and a 28ACT, still a good position for HA.  D-1 or D-3 would then be question?  But still a door opener at HA, I'd say.

Golden number for an LHP in D-1?  #118?  FB-88, ACT-30, or 87/31?  These are just "door opening" or "conversation starting" numbers. 

Now before someone starts poking holes in my theory, let me reiterate: these are just "door opening" numbers; this is not all it takes to "pick your school."  I realize a 90mph FB is not the only thing being considered,  having secondary pitches, pitchability, etc.  is arguably more important, as is what the needs of team are, etc.  

But an RHP with 90/30, 88/32, 92/28 will get a lot of introductory interest.  And as Fenway points out, the earlier the ACT part of that equation can be plugged in?  The easier life is for everyone involved, especially the RC.

So when you hear that schools have offered  freshmen  or even first semester 8th graders are those offers then just conditional upon tests, grades and meeting other academic entrance requirements (etc etc)  or can they be pulled like offers are in football as a "non-committable" if they find a better fit.  I'm assuming until a LOI is signed it's all just verbal.   Not in this situation just curious. 

Thanks, #1 Assistant Coach.  I think your theory is a good rule of thumb.

One other thing about the Ivy League: if a kid can clear the baseball and academic bar, it can be a much better financial deal than the typical D-1 baseball scholarship. For example, at Princeton, if your family income is <$120,000, 100% of tuition is covered by grants (no loans). From Princeton's financial aid brochure:

Yale has a similar program. Each school is a little different, but for many student-athletes, the Ivy deal can be better than a traditional baseball scholarship to another D-1.

Yes, those really early offers and commits have an expectation that a player will take the SAT/ACT tests in Junior year and that their GPA and test scores will meet their minimum standards.  Stanford told us at one of their camps one of the reasons they have not sought commits from Freshman and Sophomores is that there were too many kids they started following with interest with really high GPAs only to find they could not meet the test scores needed to make it.  Coach said we'd be surprised how many "athletic name" high schools inflate their athlete GPAs and that is why they wait.  But as Fenway wisely noted--if Stanford is showing interest, you start those tests as a sophomore so you can validate your a legit candidate to be admitted.  The higher academic D3s know they are not likely to secure a commitment until a kid is a senior so there is more time.

Another thought on the mindset of combining FB-Velo with the ACT score (or a converted SAT to ACT score), is it forces the player to realize that even though he may have an 88mph FB as a sophomore, or even as a Junior, that he may be closing doors on himself if that's the only number he focuses on?  That the ACT# and the SAT# are equally important data points for many colleges, especially HA ones.  That they should go hand in hand as far as getting noticed,  or getting your foot in the door, or beginning the conversation with a HA.

"Hey RHP-son, you may have an 88-FB, but your 22-ACT score gives you a grand total of #110 points."    If kid can see that the goal is "120" for HA, not just 88, 89, or 90 (for an RHP for example), he may then be inspired to hit the test books as hard as the weighted balls, or he may just decide it's time to take his 88-FB to Mid-Major State U instead.

Again, as has been previously mentioned on this thread,  the earlier that a viable ACT/SAT test number can be plugged in the equation?  The better. 

As a  recruit a  RHP was told by Ivy HC that a 2000 SAT  (old three part)"would be nice". After three attempts and some superscoring he hit the mark. Was a weekend starter as a freshman and would occasionally hit 90 mph. One Ivy coach told us that the team average (of 2400 SAT max) was about 2100.

2019Dad posted:

There are a number of threads running right now about the Stanford Camp, AZ Junior/Senior Fall Classic (and academic games), etc.

For posters who have sons who (a) were interested in high academic schools, and (b) attended Stanford or HeadFirst the summer after sophomore year (and/or the academic game at the Junior Fall Classic in October of junior year), did your son:

(1) Take the SAT or ACT as a sophomore?

(2) Rely on the PSAT (taken sophomore fall) when coaches asked about test scores?

(3) Something else? 

Thanks in advance.

My son started doing standardized testing ( ACT/ SAT) as a rising Jr. Late summer before JR year. And he didn't test well. We went w/ the high dollar tutors and after 2-3 attempts and 2,000 in tutor bills put together a sufficient score. Good enough to get a green light from admissions on a pre-read at an Ivy. But it was a hell of a lot of work. And in the end he didn't commit to the Ivy .....Son had a high GPA though. And subsequently graduated valedictorian.

So, to more specifically help you w/ your question: W/ AZ fall classic , Stanford Camp , etc what he did was ride his GPA ( he was always a 4.0/ 4.1 ) and for testing he would tell RC's he was in the process w/ tutors. And that worked out good because the RC's would call and text him asking about updated test results.

what we learned was that GPA carries as much weight as test scores. Even more w/ Ivy's . The infamous 'AI' ( Academic Index ) formula gives a more favorable result or score for High GPA vs High Standardized test scores

StrainedOblique posted:

2019Dad posted:

There are a number of threads running right now about the Stanford Camp, AZ Junior/Senior Fall Classic (and academic games), etc.

For posters who have sons who (a) were interested in high academic schools, and (b) attended Stanford or HeadFirst the summer after sophomore year (and/or the academic game at the Junior Fall Classic in October of junior year), did your son:

(1) Take the SAT or ACT as a sophomore?

(2) Rely on the PSAT (taken sophomore fall) when coaches asked about test scores?

(3) Something else? 

Thanks in advance.

My son started doing standardized testing ( ACT/ SAT) as a rising Jr. Late summer before JR year. And he didn't test well. We went w/ the high dollar tutors and after 2-3 attempts and 2,000 in tutor bills put together a sufficient score. Good enough to get a green light from admissions on a pre-read at an Ivy. But it was a hell of a lot of work. And in the end he didn't commit to the Ivy .....Son had a high GPA though. And subsequently graduated valedictorian.

So, to more specifically help you w/ your question: W/ AZ fall classic , Stanford Camp , etc what he did was ride his GPA ( he was always a 4.0/ 4.1 ) and for testing he would tell RC's he was in the process w/ tutors. And that worked out good because the RC's would call and text him asking about updated test results.

what we learned was that GPA carries as much weight as test scores. Even more w/ Ivy's . The infamous 'AI' ( Academic Index ) formula gives a more favorable result or score for High GPA vs High Standardized test scores

 

As always, more than one way to skin a cat.  One of the great things about this site. 

Great story S.O.!!

2019Dad posted:

There are a number of threads running right now about the Stanford Camp, AZ Junior/Senior Fall Classic (and academic games), etc.

For posters who have sons who (a) were interested in high academic schools, and (b) attended Stanford or HeadFirst the summer after sophomore year (and/or the academic game at the Junior Fall Classic in October of junior year), did your son:

(1) Take the SAT or ACT as a sophomore?

(2) Rely on the PSAT (taken sophomore fall) when coaches asked about test scores?

(3) Something else? 

Thanks in advance.

2018 took ACT Sept Junior year, scored well enough to have a 213 Academic Index for Ivy's

Son had at least a 3.7 at the time of signing up for Oct 20th AZ Fall Junior Classic, he didn't have his ACT score yet and hadn't taken the PSAT yet  

Because my son wasn't on a team competing in the AZ Fall Classic we had to find a team and apply to the one day High Academic Tryout.  I called Tracy, the focal point of the event.  She told me most Juniors are accepted and to include skills video on the application if we can.  When in doubt they'll look at the video vs tracking down coaches which of course will vouch for their player.  Son had good tryout, made team, great experience, very well run event.

For HF Jupiter last month son had ACT score to relay to coaches.  Son played very well, rec'd attention, but not offer type attention.  My observation is Coaches were hunting Pitchers first, and the ones that already scored a high ACT had real offer like conversations.  See PG early offers for Ivy's:  Pitchers with high ACT's.  Son has D1 measurables in all areas, just not sub 7.0 in 60yd yet.  He's working it and hopefully by June HF it will all come together.

A lot of this is positioning: continue refining skill, keep getting in front of coaches, the more they see you the more it helps.

Pretty sure my son's HS started with PSAT/SAT as a freshman, I know he took the SAT sometime during Sophomore year for "practice".

He officially took the SAT and ACT in the fall of his Junior year, and did better on the ACT than SAT, so we focused on that one.  He took it again in the late spring of that year in an effort to improve on his original 30 and got the same score, with the subtest results different enough to superscore to a 31. Never did any active prep, he just didn't want to invest the time, which I thought was a mistake as I think he could likely gotten to a 32-34 given the mistakes he was making and knowing his own weaknesses (he's an extraordinarily slow reader, though we've never sought a clinical diagnosis). he had plans to try a third time, but got accepted before the test took place, so didn't bother.

I wanted him to get the 33/34 if he could, assuming it would open more college doors, but he was exceptionally good student with the most rigorous course load he could take at a very high achieving school.  He ended up top 3% of his class (held back only by students who took more than his 11 APs) and an AP National Scholar, and those factors ended up being much more important to the schools that were interested in him than his median-to-slightly-below ACT for those schools. Maybe if he'd been athletically talented enough and had wanted to go to an Ivy/Stanford type school we'd have spent a little more effort towards getting the test scores up to be more competitive in that pool.

The impression I got from pretty much everyone we talked to was that academic rigor was more important to schools at his academic level than test scores were (at least past some threshold values for the test scores).  Maybe that's different if you're looking at schools where the spread of student academic talent is wider and the tests get used as more of comparison tool?

An argument I've heard is that GPA is unreliable because a 3.0 at school A could be harder to come by than a 4.0 at school B,  and therefore schools rely on standardized test scores more. But your point about rigor makes me realize that rigor has a built-in standardized testing component, because if a kid has taken 10 AP or IB courses, he also should be in the process of taking 10 AP or IB tests, and those should be a good tool for comparison.

JCG posted:

An argument I've heard is that GPA is unreliable because a 3.0 at school A could be harder to come by than a 4.0 at school B,  and therefore schools rely on standardized test scores more. But your point about rigor makes me realize that rigor has a built-in standardized testing component, because if a kid has taken 10 AP or IB courses, he also should be in the process of taking 10 AP or IB tests, and those should be a good tool for comparison.

Concur JCG, I think the ACT or SAT are the first bona fide filters the High Academic Coaches use. The Coaches probably don't even scrutinize a transcript of a Soph or Junior until they see an initial ACT or SAT.  Then comes the level of difficulty of course load (AP's/Honors)

Gov posted:

2018 took ACT Sept Junior year, scored well enough to have a 213 Academic Index for Ivy's

 

213 is fantastic, Gov! 

Over the years, I've helped quite a few folks with Ivy and High Academic baseball recruiting not to mention been through the gauntlet with my own son a few years ago.  Here is my read on the GPA/ACT/SAT/academic rigor question that has come up.....first, it is all relative to the recruits baseball skills.  Second, the coach is only going to have so much (quantifiable) equity with the Admissions committee every year.  In other words, he can only advocate for a couple impact players with lower GPAs/SATs/academic rigor per year.  For the non-impact recruit it is advisable and assumed your son has outstanding SAT/ACT scores, incredibly rigorous courses and a high GPA in those rigorous courses...these are a given.  Not only is the potential recruit competing for admissions/recruitment among other baseball players (based on ACT/SAT & baseball skills), the Admissions committee is looking at the potential recruit in the context of the general student population (previously mentioned AI).  By far, the single most common dynamic that trips up a potential Ivy or high academic baseball recruit is not high enough SAT or ACT score.  It isn't even close with the other dynamics mentioned assuming the recruit is at the right baseball talent level.  So, understanding your baseball skills, demand & goals becomes real important as a potential Ivy or high academic recruit and parent begin to think about when to take the SAT and ACT and hope to score high enough.  JMO

JCG posted:

An argument I've heard is that GPA is unreliable because a 3.0 at school A could be harder to come by than a 4.0 at school B,  and therefore schools rely on standardized test scores more. But your point about rigor makes me realize that rigor has a built-in standardized testing component, because if a kid has taken 10 AP or IB courses, he also should be in the process of taking 10 AP or IB tests, and those should be a good tool for comparison.

Exactly

Don't sleep on the PSAT October of Junior Year. Lots of schools offer up to "full rides" depending on how they finish (Commended, Semifinalist, Finalist & Scholar). My 2018 got his score this week, index 219 which in AZ that would make him at least a NMSF. He has also taken both ACT & SAT early (did OK) and then scored very well his 2nd time around. He will be taking each test one more time, to leave no doubt for IVY & Service Academy entry. Coaches have stressed that he take lots of Honors and AP classes and stay above a 3.5 GPA. Also agree, don't test back to back, each test has it's own format and timing. 

http://thecollegematchmaker.co...nal-merit-finalists/

StrainedOblique made an important observation about the high cost of tutors and test prep for the SAT/ACT tests.  With the SAT, my 2017 took it first time with no test prep and did very well.  But knowing he was going to eventually take the ACT later, we signed him up for an unlimited test prep service offered on weekends at a nearby location.  So he retook it and scored 210 points higher, then used the service for both the initial ACT and subsequent retest and did very well and then upped it again another 2 points. 

So was the improvement really worth it?  We are still waiting for admission decisions at several high academics, so it is too soon to tell.  But beyond the admission decision, it almost certainly will be on merit money.  He is likely going to wind up at a D3 with no athletic money, so the private school cost would be out of reach without significant merit money.  Using the Net Price Calculator on several of his interest school websites, the improvement in the SAT/ACT score will add anywhere from $2K to $5K more dollars when I compare the results from his old score versus the improved score.

We can debate whether the SAT/ACT should really be that significant in a college decision.  But for those parents with younger kids who want to play college baseball and don't have GPA's over 4.0, I would argue spending the money and preparing to do very well on these tests should be just as important as finding a strong travel ball team and good private hitting or pitching coaches.  It is a real pain for the kids--my 2017 moaned a lot, said the classes were boring, would rather have cleaned his room, etc.  But the results he got may be the difference in making a strong academic private school affordable due to the merit money.

FWIW, I don't think test scores are the only thing that matter for merit aid, at least not at all the high academics (I know there are a lot of median level schools that use them as a bright line test, though). My son ended up with the max award for a variable amount scholarship at his school, despite a below-median ACT for his class.  He's also receiving an enormous amount of need-based aid, since both his parents are middle school teachers, and I get the impression that the school mixes and matches on both merit and need-based awards to put together the financial packages it wants.

jacjacatk posted:

 get the impression that the school mixes and matches on both merit and need-based awards to put together the financial packages it wants.

Exactly.  

Here in CA where several schools in the UC system are very highly ranked, also have become very difficult to get into, and typically do not give a lot of aid to middle class families, I have a theory, based on anecdotal evidence, that the high academic privates make a point of matching what they expect the family's cost of attendance will be at a UC.  The more middling privates will often come in with a lower cost of attendance than the UC.

JCG posted:

jacjacatk posted:

 get the impression that the school mixes and matches on both merit and need-based awards to put together the financial packages it wants.

Exactly.  

Here in CA where several schools in the UC system are very highly ranked, also have become very difficult to get into, and typically do not give a lot of aid to middle class families, I have a theory, based on anecdotal evidence, that the high academic privates make a point of matching what they expect the family's cost of attendance will be at a UC.  The more middling privates will often come in with a lower cost of attendance than the UC.

It's not just the HA schools. Private and  out of state public schools understand the way the UCs are impacted right now and the caliber of students that are being turned away by the UC system. Rather than see those students either bounce to a JC to do a 2-year stint and then transfer into a UC school or attend a CSU school, they offer the students attractive pricing which is comparable to attending a UC at in-state rates to entice them to attend. It works for the schools as they end up getting higher caliber students into their doors, for the students who get to attend otherwise fine research universities, and for the parents who in cases like mine really see no downside financially speaking. 

#1 Assistant Coach posted:

2019Dad posted:

Goosegg posted:

Schools say they will either take the highest single score or some even superscore by taking the best section scores and adding.

S was told by Ivy coaches before Junior year, which scores would clear the bar. (30 ACT min.)

Goose, that's a good rule of thumb. Someone -- I don't remember who -- on this Board said that for a RHP, if your top velocity and ACT added up to 120, you were in good shape at an Ivy (e.g., 30 ACT and 90 mph).

2019Dad,

That was me.  Just an armchair theory of mine, that an RHP with an ACT of 30 + FB of 90 = 120, and a ticket to just about anywhere you want.  The Golden #120 is what I call it.  It really is the number an RHP seeking HA-D1 school should shoot for, but not 100% necessary.  Mine only got to #118 (sum of his FB and ACT) at the time of his commitment.  I've seen other HA-D1commits (RHPs) with as low as #114 (based on PG posted data, could be old #s too)  But the Golden #120 need to only serve as a goal, a target.  

If an RHP hits it?  Great.  He can pick just about any school he wants.  If he falls short by 2-4pts, he is still in a good position.  #114 could mean 86FB and a 28ACT, still a good position for HA.  D-1 or D-3 would then be question?  But still a door opener at HA, I'd say.

Golden number for an LHP in D-1?  #118?  FB-88, ACT-30, or 87/31?  These are just "door opening" or "conversation starting" numbers. 

Now before someone starts poking holes in my theory, let me reiterate: these are just "door opening" numbers; this is not all it takes to "pick your school."  I realize a 90mph FB is not the only thing being considered,  having secondary pitches, pitchability, etc.  is arguably more important, as is what the needs of team are, etc.  

But an RHP with 90/30, 88/32, 92/28 will get a lot of introductory interest.  And as Fenway points out, the earlier the ACT part of that equation can be plugged in?  The easier life is for everyone involved, especially the RC.

#1 Assistant Coach -- how about a 133 on your Golden #120? LOL, that's what this kid has:

www.latimes.com/sports/highsch...-20170220-story.html

Though if you're topping out at 102 mph, your ACT score becomes less relevant!

Ok......some new developments in my armchair formula called RPI ("Righty Pitcher Index").   As 2019DAD brings to light my previous post that a combo score of #120 (ACT + MPH = 120) is the GOLDEN #120 for serious consideration of high academic schools and Ivys.

Thanks to Hunter Greene and his RPI score of #133 (?????) we here at the home office have decided to add an additional, higher echelon to our RPI scale.  So if your RHP has the following key measurable: 30ACT + 100MPH = #130 he is now in the           PLATINUM #130 level. 

And finally, and most appropriately, if your RHP is able to somehow combine his ACT score with his FB velo for a combined total of #133???? 

Then we here at the home office are willing to name that most elite level,  the GREENE #133 level and with this exclusive GREENE Membership you can go to MLB club for just about any price you want to name. 

GOLDEN LEVEL MEMBERSHIP (combo ACT+VELO score totaling 120)

PLATINUM LEVEL MEMBERSHIP (combo score of 130)

GREENE LEVEL MEMBERSHIP (combo score of 133 or higher)

In our neck of the woods, the SAT is still the norm.  People sometimes take the ACT, but often that's because they heard somewhere that some people do better on one than the other, etc.

First thing to know is, through three test takings, you can take your highest math and your highest verbal score and add them, even if they came from different sittings.  If you take the test a fourth time, however, the scores start getting averaged.  You should therefore understand that you should never have a plan that involves taking the SAT more than 3 times, if that.

Second, it's not helpful to take the SAT as a sophomore.  There are too many things you'll pick up as time passes, so your early SAT score is almost certain to provide a sub-par record for you.  That is, you'll spend one of your three sittings just to get disappointed.

The PSAT is a decent tool to use as a predictor of what your SAT's will ultimately be.  This will help you get an early read on whether you are truly Stanford or Ivy material.  Unfortunately, we live in an era of rampant grade inflation, so for many students, the test scores are a rude awakening that all those A's they've been piling up don't necessarily mean that you've been learning at a high level.  If I hear one more person say, "He's just not a good test taker," I'm going to scream.  (Daniel Tosh has a wickedly funny joke about that old saw.) The problem is not with his test taking.  The problem is that at our local high school, 20+% of each class has a GPA at or above 4.0, and a 3.4 puts you into the bottom half of your class.  The NCAA still credits those grades as passing muster for eligibility, but that doesn't mean Stanford or Princeton are going to be able to get you through admissions.

We do require that our players take the SAT in March of their junior years.  This assures that we have actual numbers in hand before summer play starts at recruiting venues.  It helps us to advise players on where they should and should not be looking.  If the player would need a higher score to get into his goal school, this early score lets you know whether it's reasonable to hold out hope for improvement upon re-testing in October of senior year.  With an intensive review/prep course, it's reasonable to hope for improvement of 100-150 total points on the two-part total.  On the other hand, if you want to go to an Ivy but you have a 3.8 and a 930 score, it's time to revise your list of target schools.

I honestly believe there are schools out there to fit pretty much any player.  The key is to target your recruiting efforts towards reachable goals.  To do that, you have to have some objective data to work with.

Midlo Dad posted:

In our neck of the woods, the SAT is still the norm.  People sometimes take the ACT, but often that's because they heard somewhere that some people do better on one than the other, etc.

First thing to know is, through three test takings, you can take your highest math and your highest verbal score and add them, even if they came from different sittings.  If you take the test a fourth time, however, the scores start getting averaged.  You should therefore understand that you should never have a plan that involves taking the SAT more than 3 times, if that.

Second, it's not helpful to take the SAT as a sophomore.  There are too many things you'll pick up as time passes, so your early SAT score is almost certain to provide a sub-par record for you.  That is, you'll spend one of your three sittings just to get disappointed.

The PSAT is a decent tool to use as a predictor of what your SAT's will ultimately be.  This will help you get an early read on whether you are truly Stanford or Ivy material.  Unfortunately, we live in an era of rampant grade inflation, so for many students, the test scores are a rude awakening that all those A's they've been piling up don't necessarily mean that you've been learning at a high level.  If I hear one more person say, "He's just not a good test taker," I'm going to scream.  (Daniel Tosh has a wickedly funny joke about that old saw.) The problem is not with his test taking.  The problem is that at our local high school, 20+% of each class has a GPA at or above 4.0, and a 3.4 puts you into the bottom half of your class.  The NCAA still credits those grades as passing muster for eligibility, but that doesn't mean Stanford or Princeton are going to be able to get you through admissions.

We do require that our players take the SAT in March of their junior years.  This assures that we have actual numbers in hand before summer play starts at recruiting venues.  It helps us to advise players on where they should and should not be looking.  If the player would need a higher score to get into his goal school, this early score lets you know whether it's reasonable to hold out hope for improvement upon re-testing in October of senior year.  With an intensive review/prep course, it's reasonable to hope for improvement of 100-150 total points on the two-part total.  On the other hand, if you want to go to an Ivy but you have a 3.8 and a 930 score, it's time to revise your list of target schools.

I honestly believe there are schools out there to fit pretty much any player.  The key is to target your recruiting efforts towards reachable goals.  To do that, you have to have some objective data to work with.

Great post - very helpful! I have a 2019 who took the PSAT in Oct 2016 and scored a combined 1420, 210 index. Close to or at the National Merit Semifinalist range. Anyone suggest taking a prep course of any particular kind before he takes PSAT again in the Fall of 2017 as a Junior? Thinking he will do that, and then take SAT in December, and maybe again in March before baseball starts.

He's 6'1", 200 - righty pitcher but throws low 80's as Soph. Hits for power, but slow on bases. 

Love the sincere sharing of opinions and experience on this board. Thanks.

No particular recs, but that's a great score to build from!

Not understanding why you feel the need to take the PSAT again a second time when the initial score was so high? I have always looked at the PSAT as a frosh/soph test that should give a student a realistic idea of how they can expect to score. It will be of no value to schools, and according to college board the score pretty much indicates what the SAT score would be. So why bother? Take the SAT or ACT and get something of actual value for the time spent taking a standardized test (IMO).

SanDiegoRealist posted:

Not understanding why you feel the need to take the PSAT again a second time when the initial score was so high? I have always looked at the PSAT as a frosh/soph test that should give a student a realistic idea of how they can expect to score. It will be of no value to schools, and according to college board the score pretty much indicates what the SAT score would be. So why bother? Take the SAT or ACT and get something of actual value for the time spent taking a standardized test (IMO).

 

The junior year PSAT is how you get National Merit scholarships. With his score as a sophomore -- close to the national merit semifinalist range -- it is well worth taking a shot at that, IMO.

Well there you go! Never had to worry about that with my kids...

Typically, at least in my area, the player's school decides when he takes the PSAT.  He just has to show up when they say to.

The fall junior year test is, as mentioned above, the NMSQT part.  The earlier test is just to give people an idea if they're doing well or maybe in need of help.

I don't think anyone 1400+ is in need of help with their test-taking!  And there's not a lot of room above that to achieve a whole lot of improvement.  But hey, if you're aiming for Stanford or Princeton, pull out all the stops just to be sure.

In contrast, the player decides when to take the SAT.

My two cents:  DO NOT LET YOUR GUIDANCE COUNSELOR TELL YOU WHEN TO TAKE THE TEST.

Your guidance counselor will almost certainly tell you to wait until fall of your senior year, maybe even until December.

Your guidance counselor wants to put you in the cookie-cutter approach that applies to non-athletes.  The likelihood that she understands how baseball's recruiting time table changes the situation is very, very low.

Take the test in March of your junior year, then see where you are.  As you play/showcase over the summer, aim for schools in your wheelhouse or maybe just a slight reach.  If you are good with your spring scores, you're done!  If not, then you will know that you need to plan the time and the money for a strong prep course prior to re-taking the test in the fall.

The NMSQT is the key since he is close to qualifying for that. We would need scholarship $ for schools he'd like to attend like MIT, CalTech, Stanford, etc...! So for that reason alone I think it makes sense to take the PSAT Jr. year and do some kind of prep for it. Maybe an SAT course that would address both PSAT and SAT since he'd be taking that a few months later. 

I've heard that scholarship $ may not be forthcoming from the most elite institutions, even with National Merit Scholar status.  Not that my kid would ever qualify!

With the amount of people who post on this board all gunning for all these HA schools, a LA (low academic) like (insert school name here) is a slam dunk. My kid doesn't aspire to be an engineer, businessman or politician, so aiming for those kind of schools with the tuition associated does not provide good ROI on those tuition dollars.

Most of the elite high academic schools we looked at gave no merit aid at all.....how would they determine who gets it when everyone has the highest stats and everyone is deserving? Only aid available was financial need based. If you are going down this route check each individual school for their specific policy. We were surprised as the "myth" out there is that if your kid is an academic star he will get scholarship money - true many places - but not true for the elite schools.

SanDiegoRealist posted:

With the amount of people who post on this board all gunning for all these HA schools, a LA (low academic) like (insert school name here) is a slam dunk. My kid doesn't aspire to be an engineer, businessman or politician, so aiming for those kind of schools with the tuition associated does not provide good ROI on those tuition dollars.

The "advantage" to the HA schools, from a baseball point of view anyway, is that the better your grades are the more places to play there are, and the more likely it is you'll get the shot, because only so many people can actually get in.  I know for my son, who's no one's idea of pro prospect, the grades are what allowed him to play at the college level while also meeting his academic goals.

Louise posted:

Most of the elite high academic schools we looked at gave no merit aid at all.....how would they determine who gets it when everyone has the highest stats and everyone is deserving? Only aid available was financial need based. If you are going down this route check each individual school for their specific policy. We were surprised as the "myth" out there is that if your kid is an academic star he will get scholarship money - true many places - but not true for the elite schools.

Our experience was that the lower you went down the academic "food-chain", relative to your grades/test scores, the more likely you were to get merit aid, but that in the end it kind of all balanced out with the need based aid and the ultimate costs.  That's coming from a two middle-school teachers as parents economics situation, though, so YMMV if you're in a higher income bracket (and no, we're not those mythical overpaid teachers, either).

Just chiming in with my obviously biased opinion that if a kid can use baseball to gain admittance to an Ivy, unless Stanford calls, the jobs available to these graduates - in every field (art history, finance, banking, consulting, engineering, etc.) are plentiful and starting salaries are well over the COA. (In fact, companies of which I am aware pay these graduates premiums (in bonus and annual salary) when compared to their non-Ivy cohort AT THE SAME COMPANY.)

(Now, if my kid was absolutely, positively, heading to med school, I would say DO NOT go to an Ivy because med school's want a high GPA - a more difficult task to accomplish at an Ivy because of the competition. But keep in mind that the majority of kids change their preliminary choice major, so locking in too early can lead to eliminating viable options.)

As a real world example, D (non-athlete) turned down a 25k (with more possible) scholarship to Miami. Her major remained Chem. E - but she picked up a finance "minor" along the way. She will be heading to Goldman Sachs after graduation - a career path no one expected and which would not have been available from Miami (but which would have been 100k cheaper over 4 years). She will make up that difference - and more - during her three year contract period with GS.

Yes, we reduced our standard of living and dipped into savings (even though we got FA); but, the kids have no loans and are given a pretty significant head start on the hamster wheel of life. While every decision is personal and has unique variables, while we could have found cheaper options for the athlete and non-athlete, the result speaks for itself - two employed kids, earning enough to live well and without any parental financial support, with access to an alumni network almost without peer.

Goosegg,

please tell me they are at least pitching in on a 2-week trip to Tahiti for you! Told my (wanna-be doctor frosh daughter) that is the cost for the bank being available thru college and med school.

Sdr

we joke that the bill will be presented on our timeline and in our chosen amount! And, unlike the commitment you made to your D, we made it crystal clear that grad school will be on their dime. 

Goosegg posted:

Sdr

we joke that the bill will be presented on our timeline and in our chosen amount! And, unlike the commitment you made to your D, we made it crystal clear that grad school will be on their dime. 

Daughter saved mom and dad tuition on undergrad, bless her heart...feel the least we can do is cover the rest of it.

Was at Boston College on college trip today with younger son (non-athlete). Admissions mentioned that there are 30 or 33 "need blind" schools (which they are one)..many of the High Academics. Didn't realize there were "need sensitive" schools who use willingness to pay as a factor.

As for the "new SAT", early indications from my son's HS are that scores are inflated..need a couple years to truly set the bar. Scores which kids were getting into certain schools in past are deferred or not getting admitted. Sort of like the old 1300 is the new 1400.

Replying to 2019DAD's original post.  My 2018LHP son took the ACT in October, just after the start of his junior year.  We didn't think it would be worthwhile taking it much earlier since too much subject matter, particularly math and science, had not yet been covered in his high school curriculum.  This timing worked out well relative to important recruiting events that son attended - Headfirst in August and the PG WWBA Fort Myers tournament in October.  This all seemed to coincide with when the Ivies and high academic mid-majors were starting to pay serious attention to their 2018 recruiting classes.  After the dust settled in the Fall, it really helped to have the ACT score and a strong GPA in hand as schools were comfortable actively recruiting son and making offers.  This may read like it was all planned out - but I assure you it wasn't.  We were surprised at how quickly things moved in the Fall.  Having the ACT score in hand certainly helped to facilitate that.

Take it fall of JR year if ready to get on the Lists. Then for those looking to D3  where only a handful of players can hope to get support compared to all aspiring to play , take it again in SR year if coach can not or chosen not to support you in one of the 2-3 spots. (usually reserved for pitchers/SS ). 1-2 questions more correct questions may make all the difference with admissions for those having to make it on merit alone. 

This post hits home. Have son with 3.9 gpa, all physical & position boxes checked off. Honors & AP classes this year and next . Figuring better than average chance at playing Ivy or Patriot and then we get his Jan SAT score....1160 yesterday...still on the floor.

Waffles&icecream posted:

This post hits home. Have son with 3.9 gpa, all physical & position boxes checked off. Honors & AP classes this year and next . Figuring better than average chance at playing Ivy or Patriot and then we get his Jan SAT score....1160 yesterday...still on the floor.

My daughter was the same scenario, really smart girl, similar GPA and AP class scenario, but just really panicked when it came test time and it showed. She always got 4's and 5's on her AP exams, so I know she could do well, but I chalk it up to test anxiety. What year is your son high calorie screen name?

Waffles&icecream posted:

This post hits home. Have son with 3.9 gpa, all physical & position boxes checked off. Honors & AP classes this year and next . Figuring better than average chance at playing Ivy or Patriot and then we get his Jan SAT score....1160 yesterday...still on the floor.

W&IC,

So, I've been on this board a while and I've seen this before.  Please don't panic.  There is time to get your son some help taking these pesky tests.  It is very rare for a high academic baseball player to have everything needed for "Admission" from the get go....most have to work at it and really want it.   Some need to work on their baseball skills, GPA, etc.  Your son just needs to focus his attention (and comfort) toward taking these standardized tests.

I've seen many overcome this before, so please don't think your son is unique in that regard.   There are all kinds of ways & methods to boost standardized test scores.  It just takes some hard work, adjustment and desire....all the tools he'll need playing baseball at a high academic school anyway.  Good luck!

My above post speaks from personal experience. 2015 was on ivy league/patriot league list. got Sept 1st email's after Stanford camp before JR year .(did not go head first yet). took SAT fall Jr. year told by very reputable  private college councilor  SAT and grades + everything else good enough. It was IF offered position . Long story short 2015 got injured, was of no longer of  interest to those recruiters, started looking at D3 fall of senior year did not repeat  SAT because we were going on advise from year before.  Went EA and RD unsupported  and needed to see financial package before commitment. (subject for different thread) . got in  few wait listed on 1 and missed on some. Don't know for sure but believe if 2015 went back to re prep over summer before Sr. year and retested a higher score may have helped get into more schools or got more money;

As it turns out finally decided on Grinnell  college.  Loves the team and great camaraderie   . The school is very reputable academically, Coach H is a very good man as a coach and Mentor, and they let him also do his second sport in the winter. He is running indoor track this week at the MWC indoor championships. Baseball seasons begin next week. 

Waffles:

Given son's performance in class (3.9) he's definitely capable. I would have him look at the different areas which made up the aggregate score. Sometimes the "verbal" can be broken down--reading , grammar, etc.(I think College Board Offers this) As Fenway noted timing can be a factor. Practice and familiarity with the type of questions can improve scores--there are practice books, and College Board used to give a "Question of the Day" on their website. I have heard that the ACT ties in more with what is taught in school curriculum.   That is an option.

Son's former math teacher gave him a tip which came in handy. When asked if she had any tips on the SAT, she said "Make sure you are answering the questions in the right bubbles (Scantrons)" .  Son had originally skipped a question to go back to and his numbers were off by one ..he caught it upon review. It's possible that happened to your son. There's time to turn it around. I am guessing your son is a junior? Good luck! 

If he has not done so already have him take the ACT....some kids do much better on one test vs the other. Invest in a prep class or tutor - not cheap but well worth it. They can analyze his results and help him in the areas he needs to improve. A 4.0 at one school can be equivalent to a 3.5 at another so colleges do rely on standardized testing results in admissions. Your son will be able to increase his score with a little effort!

It is painful to fork over $1K or more for the test prep classes (which is what it is if he takes both SAT and ACT) but I can confirm from personal experience it pays off.  2017 took the first version of each test with no test prep and did pretty well.  Then took the in-class test prep (he is too lazy to do the online ones) where they made him take 3 practice tests and went over the answers with the group.  His SAT score went up 11% and ACT 7% on the next try.  Based on some merit money award calculations, and how much more they went up when the new numbers went in, the money was well spent.

Did he hate giving up Saturdays/Sunday for a few months?  Yes indeed, but even he admitted it helped!

Yes...painful to fork over $1,000 but compare that to the cost of travel ball, showcases, camps! 

That would be an interesting masters thesis some day for my kids! "Investments in Test Prep and/or Baseball Showcases, Camp and Tournaments: Did I Waste My Parent's Money and My Time"

Great point--too early with my 2017 to determine if any of this was all worth it, but check back in 5 years when he is hopefully an engineer gainfully employed with minimal student debt!  At this point, I can say with a high degree of confidence the test prep funds were worth it.  The travel ball, showcases, multiple campus visits, private lessons--I sure hope it was!!

Backstop22 posted:

It is painful to fork over $1K or more for the test prep classes (which is what it is if he takes both SAT and ACT) but I can confirm from personal experience it pays off.  2017 took the first version of each test with no test prep and did pretty well.  Then took the in-class test prep (he is too lazy to do the online ones) where they made him take 3 practice tests and went over the answers with the group.  His SAT score went up 11% and ACT 7% on the next try.  Based on some merit money award calculations, and how much more they went up when the new numbers went in, the money was well spent.

Did he hate giving up Saturdays/Sunday for a few months?  Yes indeed, but even he admitted it helped!

Agree with this post, its money well spent. Consider it an investment into your kids future. We spent probably double what you spent but never questioned it because we thought it was the right thing since our son had aspirations of going to a high academic school. Most of you know he got into an Academy so all I am paying for now is really just airfare.    

Backstop22, full disclosure is that the test prep (right at $1K) did bump my kids ACT score 2 points...and she is on a full tuition scholarship at a PAC-12 school. So perhaps it was worth it.