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61 replies

High School aged teams should be formed by grade!

N ncball100+ posts
Well, I didn't think my last topic would get such interest but I feel very strongly about this one. After running my program for 15 years (since 1992), we are making big changes in how our teams are classified. We will now be formed by grade instead of age. FYI- These teams will be Middle school, freshman, sophomores, and juniors. We have dropped younger kids and seniors (another thread!). I need to throw in a caveat that my idea is based toward the upper-tier amateur programs in the country (I will not say *&^%$# Ball because I think it's a negative connotation).

Why? Lots of reasons. The biggest reason is that it is our goal for our kids to get to the next level. We look at the next level as a four-year college. We feel these kids are recruited by grade and not by age. A coach coming to watch our game knows that he is seeing a 2010 Grad team and not a team of 16's who could be sophomores or juniors.

I think it's even more important now because of the new age-cutoff. It added 25% more kids from another grade and made most teams split in half by grades. Why is that a problem? Well, we went one age group at a time and found the best sophomore 15's really didn't want to "play down" with freshman 15's. Looking back, I think they were correct.

Some people (even one or two of our coaches) commented that, until every elite team switched (which is my mission in the next two years!) to grade, we would be at a competitive disadvantage. My thought to that is- are we trying to accumulate plastic trophies or develop players? Somebody gave me a scenario that "what if we have a 16 year old junior and he won't play on our junior team but could help our 16 year old team. My response was that even the USA Baseball JO's are not well-scouted and we are doing that young man a disservice by using him for our own selfish gain instead of placing him on another junior-senior team that will get better exposure.

It's a big switch and we're taking a chance but I truly believe that is where the older, elite teams will head. What are your thoughts?
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M Michael'sDad100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ncball:
It's a big switch and we're taking a chance but I truly believe that is where the older, elite teams will head. What are your thoughts?


I agree that the elite teams will progress more towards this as they have the draw power to field competitive teams in a "class". Lesser teams won't. I have already seen it in the southeast with more teams being classified as 2008's or 2009's and fewer kids playing up or down.

I have always had some trouble understanding why a SR would play down on a team of mainly JRs just because he was eligible age wise. I would think he should challenge himself against his peers, in this case his "class". Personally I feel it is the way it should be. As you stated, players are recruited by class not age so it makes some sense to help the recruiters and travel ball is supposed to be about being seen.

Now that is my feeling, on the flip side, this may cause some problems with parents holding kids back a year to give them more development time. Recently I have talked to a few recruiters and several scouts that take age into consideration in the equation. If they look at a player and they are equal, they may give an edge to the younger player feeling he has more room to develop.
M micmeister500+ posts
ncball,

I like your goal and your philosophy. Age isn't going to matter to a college coach. They are going to get graduating Seniors no matter how old they are. That kid is going to have to compete against Seniors to get a scholarship not the Juniors he's playing with or against. You get better in practice and if you aren't getting challenged in practice you won't do that.
N ncball100+ posts
TripleDad- I don't disagree. A younger player with alot of talent should play up. The only challenge I have is that the player needs to be a starter. I've also seen scenarios with players who always "played up". Nothing was expected from that kid because of it. Well, they finally had to play with their class and struggled because, now, he was expected to excel. Seen it more than once.
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TripleDad:
I think it is a good idea to play by grade. It doesnt make sense for a Jr. to play with sophs just because age cutoffs allow it. However, if you had a true soph that clearly has +talent to play with the juniors you may want to allow that. But most kids prefer to play with their own class.




Yeah, I have no problem with them playing up, just not down.
06catcherdad06catcherdad1,000+ posts
Interesting, I'll have to give this more thought. While I've always taken kids by age level, as we all have in our part of the country, this concept of taking them by graduating class deserves some consideration. Of course, as you know already ncball, I'm an advocate of kids playing up if they have the ability.

This sounds like a subject we could/should discuss sometime over a cold one.
Last edited by 06catcherdad
D Doughnutman1,000+ posts
I like the idea of playing with your class. My son was in 12U last year but he played with 9 out of the 12 kids that are in 8th grade now while he and 2 others are in 7th.

I have a hard time trying to understand why those kids and parents want to play on the smaller field when they only have one more year until HS.

You win more games but I think that it hurts your development. You are going to be competing with the older kids anyway in HS.

I know this is HS talk, but it seems like the same thing, just substitute college for HS and 7th and 8th grade for Juniors and Seniors.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by ncball:
TripleDad- I don't disagree. A younger player with alot of talent should play up. The only challenge I have is that the player needs to be a starter. I've also seen scenarios with players who always "played up". Nothing was expected from that kid because of it. Well, they finally had to play with their class and struggled because, now, he was expected to excel. Seen it more than once.


ncball,
I like your philosophy, you must know my friend justbaseball. Wink

My son never played up on a team, though the team often played "up". Because the cutoff here for school is August, and baseball cutoff was calender year, he did play with those a grade above him. Until HS, he was considered young.

One particular instance I know of a player that never played his grade, he was very good,he played up and he played almost every game. In the end, when it was time to go to school or be drafted, I did not see how playing "up" made him a better player or prospect. In the end, he had the same opportinities as those his grade level.

Your primary mission to PREPARE players for college is commendable.
BL Bill L.100+ posts
Great Idea!

Wish they would do that at the younger ages too. There is a big difference in mental maturity levels between a 5th grader and a 6th grader. My son is almost aways the youngest because of the seemingly arbitrary cut off date of May 1st. Why not have it coincide with the January 1st date as they do for school? My son has a March birthday so most of the kids are almost a full year older.

Bill
S spizzlepop1,000+ posts
ncball,

Good move. I know you're familiar with a certain team in San Bernadino that's done pretty well with that approach. I never thought twice about it when I sent my kid to play with Spiers, I suppose it just made sense. The college coaches must love it when they can shop their needs with same grade kids at every position on the field.

I imagine that you're probably hearing more gripes from the younger age groups, but once they get the idea they'll be fine. You have a nice program there and this will only add to it.
Last edited by spizzlepop
T TG500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ncball:
A younger player with alot of talent should play up.

Our team was one of the top 14U teams in the state. Instead of playing 15U in the fall we're moving up to 16U. All but two (already there) of our players are heading into high school. We want to give them the best possible challenge for next spring in high school.

My son could have bumped down a year with his May birthday when the deadline changed. I didn't see the value of playing another year on the smaller fields last year when he was already the best player on his 7th grade team.
Last edited by TG
T TG500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bill L.:
Why not have it coincide with the January 1st date as they do for school?


That's the cut date for your school. It's not the cut date in our state. Ours is September 1. I've lived in six states. They have five different cutoff dates.

However, the move to May 1 was step one of ultimately moving the date to January 1. USA Baseball wants 1/1 since it's the standard internation cut date for sports. Too many programs would have balked had te move been made all at once.

The youth programs better rethink what size fields twelve year olds play on when a majority are thirteen during the season.
B Bee>1,000+ posts
a few thoughts regarding your proposed summer ball restructuring - It aint gonna fly ... you may as well hit your thumb w/a hammer Frown

I agree w/TR here

IF you are in a densely populated area I could understand the concept -
however it then becomes less about the players & their development and ALL about showing a product to scouts - & btw, are you saying your 15s & middle school teams will be scouted??

1) it does seem logical to put a team of rising jrs together to play the FALL of their jr year IF the # of players you draw from allows that -

2) you must then "throw away" srs in your pgm who have not been recruited/signed as you've now labeled them "un-sellable product" (did YOU error in projecting them?)

3) how do ya handle the 15 yr old freshman team?
there are ALWAYS some that should be playing w/guys much older. if they play w/15s they won't be challenged & will push others off the roster ... YOU are now forced to PROJECT "freshmen" - ie GUESS who will develop and "throw away" others.

4) you're putting yourself in a position of "proclaiming" who will eventually be recruited by selecting your 15, 16, 17 yr old rosters -

this will NOT be widely accepted, & ya may in-fact be doing competing travel pgms in your area a HUGE favor by tring to fix something that's not really broke

jmo
Last edited by Bee>
W Will1,000+ posts
quote:
Players should play at their talent level not the PC level----


Trhit

PC level? Gee what can that be?

Sooner or later people must realize that talent is what progresses to the next level. I have been on the site for several years. I am an oold timer who played when you had to try out for a team. If you were good enough you made it if not you were cut. I constantly hear the words Elite team travel team being thrown around. I talk to parents who complain about playing time saying to me I paid x amount of money? What does that mean? Scenario: My kid is not playing for team x so I start my "elite" "travel" team and he plays. Does this happen or am I just babbling on here?

Talent is talent.
B Bee>1,000+ posts
quote:
by Will: My kid is not playing for team x so I start my "elite" "travel" team and he plays. Does this happen or am I just babbling on here?
you are right .. of course it happens, that's why there are many 1000's of travel teams -
all you need is a catchy name & some uniforms Frown

travel bb has become a very big business & I know of only 1 program (tho there could be more) who can truely say they are in it purely for love of the game & the kids -

that would be Joe Hayden's Midland Redskins - 2007 Connie Mack WS champs
Last edited by Bee>
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
JB,
Wink

Midland has a great program.


My son played for the Florida Pokers, Connie Mack. We played against some great teams, Florida Bombers, Midland, Orlando Scorpions, FL Renegades, Dallas Mustangs, East Cobb teams, that's all I can remember right now. These were some of the elite programs in the country back then.

The cost for the summer was about 2500-3000. Included in that cost was all meals, travel, uniforms, insurance fees, hotels, etc. There were no hidden costs. Even when they went to Omaha, everything was paid for.

Arranging to play teams and tournmanets on college campus where coaches could watch was the strength of the program, and the manager had been doing this for 11 YEARS. Auburn, UF, FAU, Nebraska,GA Tech,USF, Stetson, UM, JAcksonville, Creighton,some schools where son played. We did not have to call any coach, it was all done by the manager. Some other schools that saw him play were Clemson, Duke, FSU, Wake Forest, Ole Miss, UNF, MSU, numerous JUCOs just to name a few. I realize that wood bat tournaments have taken over as far as exposure, but I would suppose that coaches love having teams come to play on their field so they can talk to the recruits.

Some people balked at the fee. We did too at first, but for the above cost, we did not have to attend camps to get son seen, or make unofficial visits, which would have probably cost thousands more.
While most of the players all secured 'ships, some didn't, they had to prove that on the field.

Didn't mean to get off track, maybe this should be under travel teams, but the point is all of the players were age appropriate. The coaches came to see the players who they were recruiting that year or those that were unsigned or see new players.

This type of program is a great role model to follow for those you wishing to help playrers to get to the next level. It's a huge undertaking, but very rewarding.

And for those of you able to have yuor player join teams like this, worth every penny.
N ncball100+ posts
Bee- Joe does a great job. Always has. That said, Midland is the biggest business operation in youth baseball. They bring in guys every year from all over the country and house them. Their budget is much bigger per team than any in the country. I'm not sure if you want to throw that one out as the only guy who does it "for the love of the game".
B Bee>1,000+ posts
quote:
by ncball: Bee- Joe does a great job. Always has. That said, Midland is the biggest business operation in youth baseball. They bring in guys every year from all over the country and house them. Their budget is much bigger per team than any in the country. I'm not sure if you want to throw that one out as the only guy who does it "for the love of the game"
ncb, I agree w/your accessment, except for the last line - I really can't judge everyone's motive .. but it has become difficult to discern others "love of the game" - from their "love of the $$"
many pgms are run similar to way the UN ran their "oil for food program"

they hyptnotize zombie-like parents into handing over their cash w/a blank stare & a semi-smile

you note their great program & large budget but failed to mention that it ALL comes from "Joe's pocket" ... player fees are -0-, coaches are paid, field complex is 1-rst class, travel & tournaments covered, housing is provided, jobs are available

Bob Cene in Youngstown also ran a similar program until his death a few yrs ago
Last edited by Bee>
M micmeister500+ posts
"you note their great program & large budget but failed to mention that it ALL comes from "Joe's pocket" ... player fees are -0-, coaches are paid, field complex is 1-rst class, travel & tournaments covered, housing is provided, jobs are available"



WOW! Incredible! Oh to have that much money and to be able to have that much fun. I'd love to meet him someday!
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Will:
quote:
Players should play at their talent level not the PC level----


Trhit

PC level? Gee what can that be?

Sooner or later people must realize that talent is what progresses to the next level. I have been on the site for several years. I am an oold timer who played when you had to try out for a team. If you were good enough you made it if not you were cut. I constantly hear the words Elite team travel team being thrown around. I talk to parents who complain about playing time saying to me I paid x amount of money? What does that mean? Scenario: My kid is not playing for team x so I start my "elite" "travel" team and he plays. Does this happen or am I just babbling on here?

Talent is talent.




Yep! That absolutely happens, but it doesn't take long in a tournament to see who is the "elite" team and who is the "PC" team.
redbird5redbird510,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ncball:
My thought to that is- are we trying to accumulate plastic trophies or develop players?


I completely agree. Our team has been this way since inception. We have a great group of 2012 grads and have resisted adding the 2011's that can drop down because of the age.

Besides, after 1 trophy/medal, do the kids even care? All of son's medals sit in a shoebox in his room. They don't matter.
C Coach_B10+ posts
NCBall

Until everyone does do it you are at a clear disadvantage. I coach in a program that went to classes, and I had 12 kids who were eligible to play 16U that were Juniors. Let me tell you it is not an easy thing to do when playing against teams using kids who just got done with a year at a JC. But the kids got the exposure that they needed. The problem is that not everyone understands what we were trying to do.
B Bee>1,000+ posts
the rational was that a team w/players in the same grade would be (by ncball) - "A coach coming to watch our game knows that he is seeing a 2010 Grad team and not a (mixed) team of 16's who could be sophomores or juniors" -
presumably because a college coach WOULD be confused by a roster w/different grad dates

quote:
Coach-B says: Let me tell you it is not an easy thing to do when playing against teams using kids who just got done with a year at a JC. But the kids got the exposure that they needed. The problem is that not everyone understands what we were trying to do
count me in there - Confused coachB notes that to challenge his 16U team he must compete at 19U venues (19U games would NOT be scouted by colleges)

Redbird also plays his team up


teams genuinely backing ncballs same grade concept should be committed to play only teams in their same grade



if a college coach is confused by different grad dates on the same roster - do ya really want your guys playing for him??
and certainly 2 different grade level teams competing on the same field would push him over the edgeFrown
Last edited by Bee>
C Coach_B10+ posts
Let me clear up my post. I coached a team this last summer that was the class of 08's. Kids that were going to be seniors. We played 18U baseball all summer. In the 08 class we had 12 kids that were age eligible to play 16U baseball. And yes we did compete against kids who just got done with there first year of college, but they were still 18. And yes these kids were being looked at because they were JC kids.

And to play against there own grade, we would have to play against JRs or 17U baseball all summer. How many 17U events do you know of?
redbird5redbird510,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bee>:
quote:
by Red: My team has always played up and competed very well
soo, if you're already playing at the (technicaly) incorrect level why would you favor restructuring summer ball by grade level?

would you then drop back to your proper age/grade slot, or play up an additional level or two?


Nooo...my TEAM is made up of 2012 grads. We "play up" to get more competition. If there were a restructuring of other teams, we would play to whatever level I feel we can compete against.

We specifically avoided playing any 54/80 events this entire year because of the high number of kids who stayed down to play on the smaller fields. To me, it makes no sense for a 6', 200 lb "kid" to play on a 54/80 diamond so they can accrue 20+ HRs. How does that help a kid's development?!?

As a college coach, it makes sense for me to be able to watch a team and know they are in a specific graduating class.
Last edited by redbird5
B Bee>1,000+ posts
quote:
by Red: Nooo, my TEAM is made up of 2012 grads. We "play up" to get more competition ... As a college coach, it makes sense for me to be able to watch a team and know they are in a specific graduating class.
I do agree w/playing up, but then where's your logic in supporting grad yr grouping?
ya said grad yr would be important to a coach watching YOUR team --
then ya make him watch YOU play (up) vs a team with OTHER grad dates???

to be consistent supporting grade level grouping, you must ONLY play at your own level ...
or the college coach watching your team play UP would be confused (according to Red & ncball) by the other team with players in a different grad class
Confused

but - a pro scout would likely rather see players grouped by age ...
it's not be rare for any hs class to have a 2 or even 3 yr age range (ie: jrs could be 16-17-18 yrs old)

college & pro both scout players, NOT teams & many are capable of reading a roster & grad date -
those that aren't usually ask someone nearby Wink
Last edited by Bee>
S spizzlepop1,000+ posts
Bee> I think either you're stuck on the team title approach, or maybe you're concerned that parents will hold their kids back a year to try a gain an edge? There are other ways to market kids. I can't see what's so controversial for a org like Norcal to group players by grade; ncball said himself they're all about getting kids into college. BTW, they do that very well, just check out their site. Smile
http://www.norcalbaseball.org/
Teams like Midland need to win the CMWS every year to consider success. I don't think Norcal even plays in a league, but they do get their kids a lot of exposure on the biggest stages, and they still manage to win a big one now and then. Wink

quote:
Originally posted by Bee>:
to be consistent supporting grade level grouping, you can ONLY play at your own level ...
the college coach watching your team play UP would be confused (according to Red & ncball) by the other team with players in a different grad class
Confused


Do you ever hear a college coach ask how old a kid is first? Or are they really concerned with when they can get their hands on a player? There really isn't much consistency in age grouping anyway. You see lots of 13,15,17U teams playing up because there just aren't as many leagues or tourneys for the odd ages.

"also - a pro scout would likely rather see players grouped by age ..."

Confused They're not eligible to be drafted by age until 21. Scouts want to know the same thing coaches do... When can I get him?
Last edited by spizzlepop
B Bee>1,000+ posts
quote:
They're not eligible to be drafted by age until 21. Scouts want to know the same thing coaches do... When can I get him?
how do all the hs-ers get drafted each yr? Confused

hey, obviously any program can structure their teams the way they want ... but no logical argument has been presented for change from age level grouping
Last edited by Bee>
S spizzlepop1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bee>:
quote:
They're not eligible to be drafted by age until 21. Scouts want to know the same thing coaches do... When can I get him?
how do all the hs-ers get drafted each yr? Confused


Sorry for the confusion there Bee. I'm just trying to point out that until age 21, the chronological factor really counts most is the date they graduate . That's when they can either be drafted or go to college. It makes logical sense to organize your teams around that date if getting your kids to the next level is your primary goal.
Here's another team that organizes that way. I think you'll find that they do pretty well by their players too. http://eteamz.active.com/abdbulldogs/
Last edited by spizzlepop
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