Great words by Coach May, just wanted to add my two cents. My son is a Senior and has survived and fought through the good and the bad. The last and only time he thought about quitting a team was at the PONY level age 13. Coach was a bit rough around the edges. He stuck it out and finished season and never looked back. Funny thing is now, senior year, same coach from PONY also coaches elite American Legion team for summer. My son called him to ask if he needed players for the summer and coach told my son that he can absolutely count on a Yes to play for him. Might have been a bit different if my son quit his team in Pony!!
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
I think the question of how early your kid is being exposed to a hardass coach has more to do with the parents problems with it than the kids problems.
When the 12u coach explained he was batting 9 and kids had to earn their spots and the parents likely won't understand the why's of which kid was chosen to play/pitch/bat...well there were a few of us parents that sat back and said do what you will, we will drive the car and write the checks, that's our only jobs. Other parents started getting overworked "Well, when can he earn his spot back?", "What if I take him for extra lessons?", "Will he know why he isn't in the line up?", "Is there anything we can do to give him a better chance at being in the line up?"
I truly believe that the great divide is coming of those who will continue with the game and those that will not...but I have to say the parents attitude on "how their child is being treated" will be a bigger factor than I previously thought. I don't think I personally can do anything to assist my kid in earning his spot...he either wants it and is willing to fight for it or it's just not important to him. Why do these parents think they have ANY control over this? I can only assume that 12u was too late for them to hear the truth about their kids abilities, or lack thereof.
That's a little different that a hardass coach. In most cases with selected travel teams, I favor roster batting and mixing the players in. Especially at the younger ages. My thought is if the kid is good enough to make the team, he is good enough to get some playing time. Obviously, discipline and other issues may over ride. The time to compete for a "full time" spot is on the High School team.
The coach I am talking about is disappointed in "little Johnny" when he doesn't get it done at the plate and strikes out with men on base. Mommy and Daddy scream "it's all right Johnny." Coach looks at the kid and says no it isn't -- you need to make contact in that situation.
Or how about the guy who makes the whole team run when your kid screwed something up. And you sat there and said "oh no." Only to watch as he found an issue with every kid, so they all ran because of everyone.
The best is my kid, as catcher, being reamed by his coach for his lousy at bat while he is catching. I ask him "does it bother you." His response -- "nope, can't even here it."
Or getting on him for lazy swings during BP. Until finally the kid gets so mad, he starts lining them back at the coach's head.
Of course, when the other "team" says something about one of our kids, he is the first one to defend them.
some parents think/feel thier kids are better ball players than they really are Is a valid point.I have witnessed that on most new teams.I was at a HS summer game a few yrs. back.The team is for kids not playing summer ball and to get a good look at players moving up.The "next yrs." stud pitched 1st.Did alright no runs.The 2nd kid that pitched was some 8th grader that would be a fresh. the following V season before the 1st batter walked back to dugout.It was completly obviuos the 8th grader was on/at a whole other level than the 1st kid.You should have heard the 1/2 dozen or more parents.Whats he doing here?Why isn't so and so pitching?It was like the kid on his own drove 20 miles to play on his own decision.Never dawned on them the coach wanted him there.Facing other HS kids.I think all parents by the time of being V think thier kids are good players.Theres just a certain % that don't handle it well.No humility of sorts.By the way that 8th grader pitched in the regional championship that following season.Pitched a full 7.The normally loud crowd was completly silent for a good part of the game.Lost by 1 run.An ESPN catch by CF with 2out and bases loaded saved game for other team.
Originally Posted by Golfman25:
That's a little different that a hardass coach. In most cases with selected travel teams, I favor roster batting and mixing the players in. Especially at the younger ages. My thought is if the kid is good enough to make the team, he is good enough to get some playing time. Obviously, discipline and other issues may over ride. The time to compete for a "full time" spot is on the High School team.
The coach I am talking about is disappointed in "little Johnny" when he doesn't get it done at the plate and strikes out with men on base. Mommy and Daddy scream "it's all right Johnny." Coach looks at the kid and says no it isn't -- you need to make contact in that situation.
Or how about the guy who makes the whole team run when your kid screwed something up. And you sat there and said "oh no." Only to watch as he found an issue with every kid, so they all ran because of everyone.
The best is my kid, as catcher, being reamed by his coach for his lousy at bat while he is catching. I ask him "does it bother you." His response -- "nope, can't even here it."
Or getting on him for lazy swings during BP. Until finally the kid gets so mad, he starts lining them back at the coach's head.
Of course, when the other "team" says something about one of our kids, he is the first one to defend them.
I just meant from the parent side of it how much a hardass coach is a big change for a lot of them. They aren't use to little Johnny being talked to like anything other than the stud baseball player his parents have always believed him to be!
Our coach is right up there with those you describe. Twelve 11/12 year olds ran poles this weekend because one child changed out of his cleats and into turf shoes prior to the team meeting after a game. Apparently, and I quote, "you aren't allowed to do that on MY time". Third basemen didn't get dirty for a ball going over third, coach asked why, kid said "My knee has been hurting a bit, and I didn't think I could get it", coach said "Sorry to hear that kid"...and the kid was removed from the game and batting order and didn't play the next one either, kid was NOT a happy camper and by the third game his knee was supposedly all better! Told the relief pitcher during warm ups "I can't put you in the game if you are going to throw like a 9 year old girl"...kid miraculously found some speed. Told the number 4 hitter (who happened to be mine) that he didn't care he had gotten on base all day if he couldn't find a way to get his hips to move he would be replaced at his next at bat by the number 10 hitter....kid moved his hips and got a home run....these were all said just this past weekend.
The guy is not going to win an award for his people skills but he does get the best possible effort out of his team....OR ELSE!
Seems like the OP has vanished... But here is my two cents anyway. I am like Root, I really have no idea if the OP is true or false but for the purposes of the thread I have to assume its true. In this case I would let my son quit. There is a youth coach who we know well and I actually like him. We are friends in another capacity. But he is a screamer and I have said many times privately I would never let my kid play for him. In the last couple years the only time I even raised my voice was due to a helmet throwing temper tantrum. That is intolerable in my opinion. Other than actual discipline issues like that I find no place for screaming or 'tearing down to build back up'. Folks this ain't the marines as much as some of us want to equate sports with battle. Thick skin is important but simple respect on part of both player AND coach is also important. Baseball is a game of confidence and concentration, neither is enhanced by screaming and berating. I hope my son is strong enough in life to take any amount of abuse and just keep on truckin' because that will serve him well. However that doesn't make the abuse Ok or correct. Instead of constantly telling the victim to toughen up how about lets tell the screamer to chill out a little!
I am a firm believer that discipline begins at home. A big issue is that many kids these days aren't disciplined at home so those outside of the home have to pick up the slack. That would include teachers as well as coaches.
not sure I agree with some things posted here but its different strokes for different folks I suppose.
Son has had some very very hardass coaches in his lifetime. However, the one thing that was never missing was their sense of humor (that is including professional managers as well). My sons 10-12 year old coach was tough, but he never forgot they were 10-12 year olds. You actually cant play this game without one.
One of my sons best coaches was his travel ball coach in HS. It was sons senior summer and he was struggling. He slowly walked to the mound, son thought he was going to be pulled, next thing he's told his fly was open, he bust up laughing. He was fine after that.
This is in response to your first post caco:
My only disagreement goes to 12-year-old boys being on teams and not playing. I totally get it from the coach's perspective. But from the player's and parent's, that boy had better have a real good shot at getting a lot of playing time on that team. If he doesn't, he's on the wrong team -- and missing out on what's most important.
Better that young players PLAY on a good team ... rather than WATCH on a great team.
Make sense?
Originally Posted by TPM:
I am a firm believer that discipline begins at home. A big issue is that many kids these days aren't disciplined at home so those outside of the home have to pick up the slack. That would include teachers as well as coaches.
not sure I agree with some things posted here but its different strokes for different folks I suppose.
Son has had some very very hardass coaches in his lifetime. However, the one thing that was never missing was their sense of humor (that is including professional managers as well). My sons 10-12 year old coach was tough, but he never forgot they were 10-12 year olds. You actually cant play this game without one.
One of my sons best coaches was his travel ball coach in HS. It was sons senior summer and he was struggling. He slowly walked to the mound, son thought he was going to be pulled, next thing he's told his fly was open, he bust up laughing. He was fine after that.
Are we now going to make it a habit to be in agreement? Agreed baseball is a long slow game. Humor and being a relaxed is a big part of baseball. Kids who played basketball for me then also played baseball for me thought i was two different persons. Basketball is an emotional game. Getting fired up can come into play. As a coach i was intense. Baseball came and all of the sudden I was joking around in the dugout with them and being relaxed.
Originally Posted by jp24:
This is in response to your first post caco:
My only disagreement goes to 12-year-old boys being on teams and not playing. I totally get it from the coach's perspective. But from the player's and parent's, that boy had better have a real good shot at getting a lot of playing time on that team. If he doesn't, he's on the wrong team -- and missing out on what's most important.
Better that young players PLAY on a good team ... rather than WATCH on a great team.
Make sense?
I would agree jp24. In fact one of the great tidbits of info I have received from this website is that "your child should be on the best team he can be on that still allows him significant playing time."
I look at the game changer stats, I see that some kids got 15 at bats this weekend and others got 2. I see that there is a group of 6 kids nearly always on the field, and I see that there are 6 kids constantly rotated in and out, and coincidentally they are usually the kids who have the significantly less at bats.
I think some of the parents like the solid fundamentals their kid is being taught while other parents just like the name of the park on the Jersey and are willing to put up with the lack of playing time. While I am all for my kid proving to the coach he belongs on the field...well let's just say at age 12 if I found that he consistently wasn't one of the kids on the field I would be looking for a lower/different team for him.
Originally Posted by jolietboy:
Originally Posted by TPM:
I am a firm believer that discipline begins at home. A big issue is that many kids these days aren't disciplined at home so those outside of the home have to pick up the slack. That would include teachers as well as coaches.
not sure I agree with some things posted here but its different strokes for different folks I suppose.
Son has had some very very hardass coaches in his lifetime. However, the one thing that was never missing was their sense of humor (that is including professional managers as well). My sons 10-12 year old coach was tough, but he never forgot they were 10-12 year olds. You actually cant play this game without one.
One of my sons best coaches was his travel ball coach in HS. It was sons senior summer and he was struggling. He slowly walked to the mound, son thought he was going to be pulled, next thing he's told his fly was open, he bust up laughing. He was fine after that.
Are we now going to make it a habit to be in agreement? Agreed baseball is a long slow game. Humor and being a relaxed is a big part of baseball. Kids who played basketball for me then also played baseball for me thought i was two different persons. Basketball is an emotional game. Getting fired up can come into play. As a coach i was intense. Baseball came and all of the sudden I was joking around in the dugout with them and being relaxed.
See, once you get to know me I am not all that bad!
You know that playing uptight hurts. The coach or manager is uptight, so is the team and that's not good. Loose is good.
I agree completely (even more than 100%) with you, you can never be successful in this game if you cant find the humor. If the coach or manager is miserable all the time, the players will be as well, at any level.
Originally Posted by jolietboy:
Seems like the OP has vanished... But here is my two cents anyway. I am like Root, I really have no idea if the OP is true or false but for the purposes of the thread I have to assume its true. In this case I would let my son quit. There is a youth coach who we know well and I actually like him. We are friends in another capacity. But he is a screamer and I have said many times privately I would never let my kid play for him. In the last couple years the only time I even raised my voice was due to a helmet throwing temper tantrum. That is intolerable in my opinion. Other than actual discipline issues like that I find no place for screaming or 'tearing down to build back up'. Folks this ain't the marines as much as some of us want to equate sports with battle. Thick skin is important but simple respect on part of both player AND coach is also important. Baseball is a game of confidence and concentration, neither is enhanced by screaming and berating. I hope my son is strong enough in life to take any amount of abuse and just keep on truckin' because that will serve him well. However that doesn't make the abuse Ok or correct. Instead of constantly telling the victim to toughen up how about lets tell the screamer to chill out a little!
For some folks, especially moms
, its hard to understand the difference between real abuse and just getting on someone's butt to improve. Abuse is being told really negative hurtful things, but telling someone he should have gone to second when he stayed at first is not abusive (as an example).
I never saw the other post by the OP except where it was quoted. I hope that she returns, or is reading, and I hope that she lets her son figure it out for himself and that her son is up front and honest with her. Sometimes players are in the game for the wrong reasons, and very often it is to make others happy. If he wants to quit it may not be for the reasons she has stated.
This game is very strange, people have love/hate relationships with it, but you got to love it or you are never going to make it as a player.
Originally Posted by TPM:
For some folks, especially moms, its hard to understand the difference between real abuse and just getting on someone's butt to improve. Abuse is being told really negative hurtful things, but telling someone he should have gone to second when he stayed at first is not abusive (as an example).
I never saw the other post by the OP except where it was quoted. I hope that she returns, or is reading, and I hope that she lets her son figure it out for himself and that her son is up front and honest with her. Sometimes players are in the game for the wrong reasons, and very often it is to make others happy. If he wants to quit it may not be for the reasons she has stated.
This game is very strange, people have love/hate relationships with it, but you got to love it or you are never going to make it as a player.
I agree TPM, 100%. I have also seen some macho dad's come in with imaginary guns ablaze saying "you can't talk to my kid that way, just who do you think you are!!!!"...usually I have to say while the approach was a bit harsh, for example "I can't put you in the game if you are throwing like a 9 year old girl"...I can't exactly say the statement didn't have merit....with the possible exception of some truly spectacular 9 year old girls of course!
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Originally Posted by TPM:
For some folks, especially moms, its hard to understand the difference between real abuse and just getting on someone's butt to improve. Abuse is being told really negative hurtful things, but telling someone he should have gone to second when he stayed at first is not abusive (as an example).
I never saw the other post by the OP except where it was quoted. I hope that she returns, or is reading, and I hope that she lets her son figure it out for himself and that her son is up front and honest with her. Sometimes players are in the game for the wrong reasons, and very often it is to make others happy. If he wants to quit it may not be for the reasons she has stated.
This game is very strange, people have love/hate relationships with it, but you got to love it or you are never going to make it as a player.
I agree TPM, 100%. I have also seen some macho dad's come in with imaginary guns ablaze saying "you can't talk to my kid that way, just who do you think you are!!!!"...usually I have to say while the approach was a bit harsh, for example "I can't put you in the game if you are throwing like a 9 year old girl"...I can't exactly say the statement didn't have merit....with the possible exception of some truly spectacular 9 year old girls of course!
We have a girl in the neighborhood who played thru 12. She was good. Kicked the boy's butts. She was finally forced to softball because HS wouldn't let her play baseball. Too bad, because we could use her.
If your parent your kid in a cocoon like the movie "PLEASENTVILLE" reality will smack you in the face.
Ok here is an example of something I found abusive. My son was 9, keep that in mind he was 9! And the coach is screaming at him because his slide was poor (which is most definitely was, just couldn't seem to get the hang of it). Then he proceeds to tell him he is going to do it til he gets it right... slide after slide on that crushed gravel surface for a kid who already has bad slide mechanics. Well of course he keeps getting cut up worse and worse. He doesn't say anything cause of course he doesn't want to look like a wimp and i am sure he is also intimidated by the screaming coach. Afterwards I was ashamed of myself for not 'interfering' with the practice and putting a stop to it. Any coach worth his salt knows if a kid is having difficulty with his slide mechanics you take your shoes off and go out into the grass, especially if the grass is a little wet. Or we used to do it in a freshly waxed hallway in the school. Anything but a rough surface. Schedule something ahead of time with the kid so he is dressed properly and prepared. We did not yell and scream at the coach. Didn't even call him. I hate even referring to these people as coaches as they are really just other parents not polished coaches. But there was only one tournament left in that season and we did not go. Did my son survive the blood up and down his leg? Of course. Did it somehow magically make him tougher or a better man? I doubt it. But I can tell you this I am still ashamed of myself as a dad and a baseball coach for not stepping in and stopping that. Because it was the wrong thing to do. Period.
"you can't talk to my kid that way, just who do you think you are!!!!"
The only reason for a parent to possibly react this way is if the coach is singling out the player in front of the entire park. Is there a need for a coach to do this? When I coached 13u to 16u the roster was players we felt we were preparing for high school. We were one of tghe top teams in our region.
I was fairly stoic when I coached baseball (much different coaching basketball). I would pull a kid who screwed up aside and tell him to talk to a particular assistant (the bad cop). He would be critical, but instructive. Then another assistant (the good cop) would grab the kid for a second and reassure him the discussion took place so he could become the best player possible. But no one was ever yelled at while on the field. The three times I got in players faces where parents might have heard were discipline issues where the player had been warned in the past.
Originally Posted by Golfman25:
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Originally Posted by TPM:
For some folks, especially moms, its hard to understand the difference between real abuse and just getting on someone's butt to improve. Abuse is being told really negative hurtful things, but telling someone he should have gone to second when he stayed at first is not abusive (as an example).
I never saw the other post by the OP except where it was quoted. I hope that she returns, or is reading, and I hope that she lets her son figure it out for himself and that her son is up front and honest with her. Sometimes players are in the game for the wrong reasons, and very often it is to make others happy. If he wants to quit it may not be for the reasons she has stated.
This game is very strange, people have love/hate relationships with it, but you got to love it or you are never going to make it as a player.
I agree TPM, 100%. I have also seen some macho dad's come in with imaginary guns ablaze saying "you can't talk to my kid that way, just who do you think you are!!!!"...usually I have to say while the approach was a bit harsh, for example "I can't put you in the game if you are throwing like a 9 year old girl"...I can't exactly say the statement didn't have merit....with the possible exception of some truly spectacular 9 year old girls of course!
We have a girl in the neighborhood who played thru 12. She was good. Kicked the boy's butts. She was finally forced to softball because HS wouldn't let her play baseball. Too bad, because we could use her.
That coach is lucky I wasnt close to hear that comment.
We had a Mo'Ne on our 12/13 year old team. Her folks put her in middle school in softball whenthe boysbegan throwing harder. Too bad she threw and hit harder than the boys!