I'm just glad my son has a place to play next year. it renewed his interest in college and teaching him to work hard for things. Just want him to get a degree and some life skills, but he does love the game, sports just a tool to get him where he needs to be in life. Having a recruiter tell him how much they like him helped his confidence.Different person than he was at this time last year. He learned from his failures and successes that's all you can ask for.
I guess we tend to forget that things can be a lot different, depending on what part of the country you're in. Here's how things work in S.C.
VARSITY: Any kid from 7th-12th grade can, in theory, play on the varsity team. However, it is rare to see a kid younger than 9th grade on varsity. Some schools are mostly 10th, 11th and 12th graders, but some keep a lot of 9th graders. I am told that the AAAA school across town is keeping 9 freshmen this year.
JV: 7th-10th grade. There is no rule that says you cannot have an 11th grader on the JV team, but I have only seen it happen once in the last 10 years, and that was a 6'10' pitching prospect/project whose dad was a minor league pitching coach. 11th grade is generally considered the "up or out" year. There is only one JV team per school.
When my son was coming through, his school would keep 1, sometimes 2, 7th graders per year on the JV team.
C-team. My son graduated in 2008. At that time, JV was the lowest school sponsored level. However, since then a number of schools have added a C-team. This is all 7th and 8th graders. C-teams are fairly common at the larger classifications, and uncommon at smaller schools. My guess is far less than 50% of the schools in this state have C teams. Most are just Varsity and JV.
My son played at the largest classification in the state, AAAA. Freshmen classes at such schools are probably 500-600 max. Senior classes are usually much lower due to the dropout rate.
At son's school there would be years when maybe 50-60 kids would tryout for varsity and junior-varsity combined. Cuts were generally minimal. The C-team has increased the numbers somewhat. The point of the C-team is to keep kids involved as long as possible, just to see who turns into a ballplayer down the road.
There are schools around here that have 100+ at tryouts, but that is pretty rare. Some of the numbers some of you guys see are mindboggling to those of us in the hinterlands.
Originally Posted by Golfman25:
Originally Posted by onthefly:
in this case coach has a regular job and by either a lack of knowledge or interest does not develop any of the lower level or fringe players as freshman either you are good at 14 or never play. truly only. about 9 or 10 kids every see any action from year to year. so if your not in that group at a young age you must get outside help to improve and possibly move up which almost never happens at this school. my son had some very correctable flaws according to the academy i took him to but was never worked with by the coach. I thought freshman level an jv to an extent, was still a point were development should occur but I was wrong.
No way is it possible to "develop" a kid during the HS season. We just started, with the first game in 2 weeks. Then average 3 games per week thru May. Add in the coach/player ratio and it just isn't happening. The better players tend to work outside of the program.
I have to respectfully and wholeheartedly disagree. As with anything, people tend to make statements as it regards their own personal experiences. I understand that. But let's also understand that it's not the same everywhere.
Around here, there is a fall season which last a couple of months, then offseason conditioning and workouts, then the spring season, which lasts from Feb-May or June. In essence, the only time the kids aren't working out with their HS teammates is during the summer. Of course, some of them play within the same travel organizations, but they are spread out quite a bit.
Bottom line, HS baseball is WHERE they develop, travel ball is where they SHOW what they've developed...as college recruiters can actually get out to see a bunch of games. Hence, and why it's called "showcase baseball"!
Depends on what you mean by "develop," and how you ask the question. If you asked most kids "Who was most responsible for making you a hitter/pitcher", most would probably say Dad, Private Hitting/Pitching Coach, or youth league coach, because those are the people who spend the most time with them, actually doing hands on teaching.
I suspect the other poster was talking about "developing" kids during the HS PLAYING season, not the off season. The rules for working with kids in the off season vary tremendously, and they are always changing. In SC they have changed from 4 on 1's, to 2 on 1's, to wide open (almost) in the last 10 years. You can certainly do some development if the offseason, IF the rules allow, IF the players aren't playing other sports, and IF the coach has the motivation and/or time to do so.
In these parts, most of the top pitchers and hitters I know got that way because of dad, their private hitting/pitching coach, or some other coach who spent a lot of personal time with them. That's USUALLY not the HS coach, but it certainly could be. That's the way I look at "development."
But, it just depends on how you look at it. Yeah, HS games (not so much the "coaching") allow kids to develop by playing games. But frankly, they could get that kind of development anywhere. Unless you've got a coach that's really into it, and has the time/ability to do some real coaching, most of what I consider development occurs elsewhere.
But again, it all depends on where you live and how you look at it.
Originally Posted by GoHeels:
Bottom line, HS baseball is WHERE they develop, travel ball is where they SHOW what they've developed...as college recruiters can actually get out to see a bunch of games. Hence, and why it's called "showcase baseball"!
Development of any kind is a shared responsibility. Generally, there are 3 or 4 key people when it regards the development of any human being in any endeavor. It simply drives me a little batty whenever I see people raising up showcase baseball as the end all be all, when it's simply part of the puzzle. The programs I am familiar with, and some of them are elite...play games on the weekends, in the summer and fall. Period. This is not a bad thing. They are very good at what they're asked to do, and that is to showcase their players. They also have very talented and qualified folks leading them, and certainly can play a huge role in the outcome for the player.
Regarding who spends the most time with a player...if you are part of a solid HS program, you may spend the better part of 9 months per year from as early as the 7th grade with that staff. (As much as 54 months). I consider that to be fairly significant, and frankly, other than Dad, I'm not sure who has spent more time with the kid.
Originally Posted by GoHeels:
Development of any kind is a shared responsibility. Generally, there are 3 or 4 key people when it regards the development of any human being in any endeavor. It simply drives me a little batty whenever I see people raising up showcase baseball as the end all be all, when it's simply part of the puzzle. The programs I am familiar with, and some of them are elite...play games on the weekends, in the summer and fall. Period. This is not a bad thing. They are very good at what they're asked to do, and that is to showcase their players. They also have very talented and qualified folks leading them, and certainly can play a huge role in the outcome for the player.
Regarding who spends the most time with a player...if you are part of a solid HS program, you may spend the better part of 9 months per year from as early as the 7th grade with that staff. (As much as 56 months). I consider that to be fairly significant, and frankly, other than Dad, I'm not sure who has spent more time with the kid.
You live in a different world than I do. We are faced with very stringent restrictions on when teams can practice. They basically start the 1st of March and run till end of May (so three months). Then they are allowed an "optional" summer season, which is basically June. Most of that time is devoted to games (not a lot of development for those on the bench). Other than that, it is hands off. They run "open gyms" in the fall and winter, but the coaches can't instruct, just observe so nobody gets hurt. And if you are doing another sport, you can't participate. So there is a relatively short time that the HS coaches have access to the kids. Add the fact that with 20 or so kids on a team and two coaches, there is very little opportunity for individual instruction.
So most skill development occurs thru the travel/showcase programs. Many have a focus on off season training - hitting, fielding, pitching, catching, etc. Many players get hooked up with skill specific coaches who are part of the program. It is the thousands of reps with these coaches where the kids develop.
So unless your high school coach can have access to the kids out of season, it is difficult to develop players.
Golfman, The contribution of Travel Programs also varies from area to area. While our HS experience is similar to yours, the travel experience is very different. Around here, most travel teams, even the so-called best/elite ones, are basically show up and play teams. Not a whole lot of coaching/skill development going on. Some teams in the HS age group do not practice at all because they have kids from all around the state. They ones that do practice usually don't do so more than once a week. They serve the Showcase function, but that's about it.
Originally Posted by MTH:
Golfman, The contribution of Travel Programs also varies from area to area. While our HS experience is similar to yours, the travel experience is very different. Around here, most travel teams, even the so-called best/elite ones, are basically show up and play teams. Not a whole lot of coaching/skill development going on. Some teams in the HS age group do not practice at all because they have kids from all around the state. They ones that do practice usually don't do so more than once a week. They serve the Showcase function, but that's about it.
No doubt. Those teams exist around here as well. At the end of the day it's on the player to develop.
Around here it really depends on the player and team as far as development goes. If a kid is in one of the top programs they will have lots of off season workouts and clinics to advance the kid. Many kids play for very good travel teams that don't do much player development. If thats the case then they are using private instructors during the off season. The HS season is all about playing games for your school. The travel season, for the better programs, is about getting in front of the coaches and scouts.
Our off season rules do not allow the HS coaches much contact with the team. In general they are allowed a short summer season but every day is a game, very few practices. They can run a summer camp but it has to be open to all kids, not just the players from the previous year. During the school year they can not instruct during open gyms. There can be a supervisor in the gym/weight room for safety reason but they are not allowed to organize anything.
As contact is limited its difficult for the HS programs to develop kids like the travel programs do around here.
If the player was smart they would rely upon themselves to develop. Get lessons, watch the game, get outside and work versus waiting on someone else to provide the impetus to improve.
Agree with a couple recent comments. Ultimately it is on the players. Not that we don't have a responsibility to instruct because we do. But again in my state if we follow the rules it is 2 months of contact plain and simple. The WIAA has to get some baseball people on their board who have a clue. Assuming we all follow their rules pitchers have 6 days to get ready for game action. How is that even healthy? As a side note when it comes to my own son I could care less what kind of instruction he gets in fact I hope its none at all. We have that handled. I do ask second opinions at times when he is struggling with something but then mainly just to see if there is a better way to get the point accross or work on the specific problem. In this modern age you really don't have to be a so called expert to see what's wrong. Ubersense is awesome. Side by side video "this is greinke, this is you..." Now if your son gets.to the point where he is playing AA ball and is just so close to being a big leaguer he probably needs more help than dad can give him. But for high school? DIY!
Originally Posted by coach2709:
If the player was smart they would rely upon themselves to develop. Get lessons, watch the game, get outside and work versus waiting on someone else to provide the impetus to improve.
Agreed, but I have seen a team/group environment work really well. It provides motivation and camaraderie. Kid being a catcher, it is much more "fun" getting together with a group of like minds and getting pummeled with balls than doing it on your own.
Originally Posted by onthefly:
I'm just glad my son has a place to play next year. it renewed his interest in college and teaching him to work hard for things. Just want him to get a degree and some life skills, but he does love the game, sports just a tool to get him where he needs to be in life. Having a recruiter tell him how much they like him helped his confidence.Different person than he was at this time last year. He learned from his failures and successes that's all you can ask for.
I wanted to make sure onthefly's comment doesn't get lost in this discussion. My 2017, while always being athletic, was not always what one would call a "stud" - too skinny and really just loved playing the game. While he may have a future at the college level (still no firm idea exactly what level), I am very happy that he has had and will continue to have an opportunity to play high school baseball - or just a high school team sport. Politics can enter the picture and can impact a kid's enjoyment of the game and diminish some of the
life lessons. That said, I would like to assure some parents that participating on the team can have social and acedemic benefits even if your kid does not see the field. While some parents view high school ball as simply 4 years before their kid gets to the collegel level, I would again try to assure others that high school ball can itself be good and does not always have to be viewed as a stepping stone. While college will provide a time for continued emotional maturation, I suspect my kid's four years at high school will have a much greater influence in his life. College will present him with much bigger issues, but I personally think that his social and decision making skills will largely be shaped before he gets there. In that vien, I continue to support high school team sports as a compliment to all the things we do as parents. Major politics can be a major problem but please do not allow minor politics to ruin your kid's high school experience.
How many top flight basketball players are counting on the HS coach to make them that way? I'd expect none of them.
HS seasons are too short, rules for contract too restrictive and honestly most don't get paid enough to be the driver of turning Johnny into a DI horse in (insert sport here).
Certainly HS coach can contribute and may have contacts that help find homes for players but the actual "development" of a player is on the player and generally the family next.
A motivated young man with a committed family dedicating time and resources to the effort has the best chance to max out the possibility of his talent. They you can start stirring in good youth coaches, HS coach, instructors etc.
It has been my experience that the people most responsible for developing skills are usually within the family.
That doesn't mean pushing something the boy or girl is not interested in.
In many cases development starts when enjoyment is discovered. That is why good youth coaches who understand this can be so vitally important. Unfortunately too many are only interested in winning games. Nothing wrong with winning if the priorities are in order.
We can't avoid politics, it's involved in most everything. Time is best spent figuring out why you might be getting the short end regarding politics and doing something about that.
One of the best things any young player can do is to do what it takes to get the coach to like you. Funny thing is you really don't have to do anything special to get a coach to like you. On the other hand you need to do something to get a coach to dislike you. I used to tell players, it is not important whether or not you like me, but what can become important is whether or not I like you. And I like everyone who doesn't give me a reason to dislike them.
Unfair things happen to all of us. In one way or another, good or bad, politics will play a part in all our lives. Better to recognize that and spend less time complaining about it IMO.
Originally Posted by Golfman25:
Originally Posted by coach2709:
If the player was smart they would rely upon themselves to develop. Get lessons, watch the game, get outside and work versus waiting on someone else to provide the impetus to improve.
Agreed, but I have seen a team/group environment work really well. It provides motivation and camaraderie. Kid being a catcher, it is much more "fun" getting together with a group of like minds and getting pummeled with balls than doing it on your own.
I agree with this as well and the reality of the situation is in order to become the best you can be is to have a combination of the two. But if you don't work out on your own then you're probably not going to go far. But if you are in a bad team setting then it's going to hurt your development. End of the day not working out on your own will hurt you more than being on a bad team.
It's what you do when no one is looking that matters most.
Originally Posted by PGStaff:
It has been my experience that the people most responsible for developing skills are usually within the family.
That doesn't mean pushing something the boy or girl is not interested in.
In many cases development starts when enjoyment is discovered. That is why good youth coaches who understand this can be so vitally important. Unfortunately too many are only interested in winning games. Nothing wrong with winning if the priorities are in order.
We can't avoid politics, it's involved in most everything. Time is best spent figuring out why you might be getting the short end regarding politics and doing something about that.
One of the best things any young player can do is to do what it takes to get the coach to like you. Funny thing is you really don't have to do anything special to get a coach to like you. On the other hand you need to do something to get a coach to dislike you. I used to tell players, it is not important whether or not you like me, but what can become important is whether or not I like you. And I like everyone who doesn't give me a reason to dislike them.
Unfair things happen to all of us. In one way or another, good or bad, politics will play a part in all our lives. Better to recognize that and spend less time complaining about it IMO.
Excellent post. Another shining example of the need here for not just golden threads but golden posts.
Both of my kids arrived in high school to make varsity, not learn how to play the game. My daughter was promoted to varsity softball after four jv games. My son was the first opening soph in the lineup in six years.
When each was a senior I asked what they learned from their high school coaching staffs. Both said not much. It wasn't that the coaching wasn't good. They had played on very good travel teams leading into high school that had them prepared to compete.
They also spent hundreds of hours on fields working on our own. In middle school teammates teased my kids they will would stay after practice or games.and work with me. Or after their high school fall sport practice we headed for the baseball/softball field.
When each was a senior I asked what they learned from their high school coaching staffs. Both said not much. It wasn't that the coaching wasn't good. They had played on very good travel teams leading into high school that had them prepared to compete.
They also spent hundreds of hours on fields working on our own. In middle school teammates teased my kids they will would stay after practice or games.and work with me. Or after their high school fall sport practice we headed for the baseball/softball field.
Really hate to resurrect this post...
Friday was final cut day at our HS. Fortunately my son made the team. they ended up cutting 7 players total. I hear today from one of the parents today, "it's all politics man". uh you do realize they cut the superintendent's son and two players whose fathers teach and coach at the high school or one of the feeder jr highs? Yea but 1/3 of those they took all play for same travel team. Hey you realize my son plays for that team right? went on to explain to him that we play two towns over, have never seen the HS coaches at one of our practices, games or events. We play in a "closed league" and have never seen his sons team during the season. Maybe the reason so many of our kids are making the team is our travel program puts on a hell of an off season program and the kids that made it worked their butts off during the off season.
who you know can also have a negative affect as well. My son's grandmother was a high ranking official at his high school she voted against several purchases that the athletic departments wanted ie 2 million dollar athletic field and had many heated arguments over it and was widely hated for that. this animosity was passed onto her grandson once they found out who he was.
On the flip side of this discussion if our school was a bit larger and had more talent probably every JV kid would have been cut by the beginning of their sophomore year.
Originally Posted by joes87:
Really hate to resurrect this post...
Friday was final cut day at our HS. Fortunately my son made the team. they ended up cutting 7 players total. I hear today from one of the parents today, "it's all politics man". uh you do realize they cut the superintendent's son and two players whose fathers teach and coach at the high school or one of the feeder jr highs? Yea but 1/3 of those they took all play for same travel team. Hey you realize my son plays for that team right? went on to explain to him that we play two towns over, have never seen the HS coaches at one of our practices, games or events. We play in a "closed league" and have never seen his sons team during the season. Maybe the reason so many of our kids are making the team is our travel program puts on a hell of an off season program and the kids that made it worked their butts off during the off season.
Actually glad you shared this first hand story. As discussed many times before, occasionally a political injustice occurs. But some version of your story is far more the norm and I see it play out again and again and again.
I think a small part of the issue that isn't often discussed is the human nature or societal tendency to spit out words of "not your fault" compassion to one who suffers a disappointing setback.
Originally Posted by joes87:
Really hate to resurrect this post...
Friday was final cut day at our HS. Fortunately my son made the team. they ended up cutting 7 players total. I hear today from one of the parents today, "it's all politics man". uh you do realize they cut the superintendent's son and two players whose fathers teach and coach at the high school or one of the feeder jr highs? Yea but 1/3 of those they took all play for same travel team. Hey you realize my son plays for that team right? went on to explain to him that we play two towns over, have never seen the HS coaches at one of our practices, games or events. We play in a "closed league" and have never seen his sons team during the season. Maybe the reason so many of our kids are making the team is our travel program puts on a hell of an off season program and the kids that made it worked their butts off during the off season.
The claims of "politics" will never end. For some it is legit. For others, it is a way of saving face. I don't know about posters in this thread and so, I'll leave it at that. For me, when I was a head coach, I had to cut several teacher's sons and the Principal's son. I had to cut one school board member's son. I had to cut the son of one of the richest, if not the richest guy in our area once. People don't notice that. I started a young man as a freshman who was the! son of a school board member. The claim was "politics." That young man went on to be All State and played in college at a good school. I started a young man as a freshman who, "was only starting because he played in this certain TB program." He wasn't in that program! LOL! None of my players played TB until this same young man did as a senior. This young man went on to get drafted. Again, no matter what, someone will claim politics. Unfortunately for some it is true and so, those coaches do all others a great disservice by not having any backbone.
yes for some it unfortunately does happen don't use it as a crutch. get off you butts work harder, workout before school, eat right, get quality outside instruction. my son was cut. Played in a spring rec league for 17 to 19 year olds dominated 40k's in 17 innings, word got out what he was doing local colleges started cumming to see him got back to the right people. Best thing that ever happened to him would have not work this hard if made the team and sat on the bench. Now maybe approaching 90 mph by summer. Be so good they can't say no. If its meant to be you will do this the system will beat you if you let it.So proud of my son.