High School GPA's and AP classes...

For academic money calculations, I've seen it done several ways but the majority go with SAT/ACT scores as one input and rank in class as the other.

In my children's school district, class rank is based on weighted GPA (honors & AP are on the 5.0 scale and everyone else is on the 4.0 scale). To be in the top 5% (key threshold) you need to be around 4.33 or so...

I always pushed my kids towards honors & AP not for the above, but because I always thought they'd go farther with brain then braun. In my son's case that 5% threshold paid off in academic money that was about equal to baseball money, indirectly sponsoring next summer's vacation with the savings

IMHO, if you're here talking about honors classes and college baseball, don't ask the admission staff about admission. Ask them about how they calculate academic money and how your HS calculates rank order.

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Originally posted by JMoff:
I always pushed my kids towards honors & AP not for the above, but because I always thought they'd go farther with brain then braun. In my son's case that 5% threshold paid off in academic money that was about equal to baseball money, indirectly sponsoring next summer's vacation with the savings :clap

Good for you.

I sometimes have to stop and wonder, why, so many parents want their sons to play the best baseball available to be challenged to get better to play on a college team, yet forget about the importance of the academic challenges also needed to secure a place on a college roster.

The earlier one realizes how important this concept is, the earlier you can help your children to develop better work and study habits to be able to be successful in advanced HS courses.

I'll bet the biggest challenge of any college baseball coach is keeping their players eligible. Coaches these days tend to recruit not only players that are successful on the field (no you don't have to be a pro stud) but in the classroom as well. This shows that the student/athlete is capable of concentrating on several things at one time.

Always encourage your player to take the most challenging college prep courses (or AP classes that if one passes, you do not have to take in college, thus saving you some $$)offered to him that is within his capabilities.

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Always encourage your player to take the most challenging college prep courses (or AP classes that if one passes, you do not have to take in college, thus saving you some $$)offered to him that is within his capabilities.

I'm glad you put this because I think a lot of kids get so caught up in the GPA angle they don't realize how much money they can save by doing well in AP classes. I used to teach AP US History and in that case my students could take the AP test in the spring and if they did well enough they could get college credits for US History. In other words when they showed up on campus they had two classes done and 6 credit hours already in the bank. The cost of the test is around $80 so you can spend that instead of $3000 ish for two classes.

The test is scored on a 1 - 5 scale. If you get a 1 or a 2 then you pretty much wasted your time. A 3 will get you the college credit in some schools but you have to find them. A 4 will get you the credits in quite a few schools. A 5 will obviously get you the credit in almost any school you apply to (exception would be the Ivies and places like Duke and Vanderbilt).

I had so many kids not take the test that I knew they would do well but they were more concerned with the GPA than anything else. They would tell me they didn't want to take the test and fail it and waste the $80 but they never could wrap their mind around the fact they could save around $3000 on that $80.

Another way to go with AP classes is if the teacher has a masters degree in the subject and is in a dual credit partnership with a college / university. I have a masters degree in counseling so that means I could teach AP Psychology and get with a college / university and if they accepted my syllabus / curriculum then my students would get the credit for the class without having to take the AP test. For the high school GPA it's still a weighted 5.0 scale but for the college / university it's a 4.0 scale.

Have your kids find out what kind of AP classes the school has and find out of the teacher has a dual credit situation going on. I think kids are crazy for not taking AP classes if they are capable of doing it.

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Originally posted by TPM:

The earlier one realizes how important this concept is, the earlier you can help your children to develop better work and study habits to be able to be successful in advanced HS courses.


Always encourage your player to take the most challenging college prep courses (or AP classes that if one passes, you do not have to take in college, thus saving you some $$)offered to him that is within his capabilities.

TPM - I couldnt agree more. With a Son that will be entering HS next year combined with everything i have learned thus far on the HSBBWeb, i feel i am in a pretty good position to guide him in the right direction, on and off the field. He has always been placed in AP classes and has continued to do well, but with HS approaching i know his grades from his fist Freshman semester will follow him all the way until 2016 (as the handle says). At least now i know not to listen to the parents that say..."just put him in a regular curriculum and let him ace it".

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At least now i know not to listen to the parents that say..."just put him in a regular curriculum and let him ace it".

Totally agree. That's terrible advise. They should be considering AP classes when they're recommended to do so.

There are many advantages of taking AP courses. Colleges do take AP courses in consideration. My son was recommended to take them and he did while playing two sports in HS including baseball.

Check this link out:

http://collegeapps.about.com/o...nt/tp/ap-classes.htm

My son will be graduating college this year with honors and along with his major, he will be graduating with two minors. Every one of these six points has directly impacted my son as far as college goes.

So anyone who says "just put him in a regular curriculum and let him ace it" needs to educate themselves.

I work in higher education and this topic comes up often.

Take athletics out of the equation . . . there are still live human beings who look at admissions packets. A "B" or even a "C" in an AP class (even if they don't score well on the exam), is thought of more favorably than an "A" in under-water basketweaving (remember, that test is one day's performance). Admissions committees really want to see rigor. They want to know that the student has been exposed to a heavier curriculum and won't be shell-shocked at a college-level workload.

Dual credit is absolutely something to consider if it is available at your high school. I'm actually a stronger advocate of that than the AP route (again, college credit depends on one test on one day). If you are enrolled in dual credit - say taking ENG 101 at your local community college but it counts as AP English-Literature at your high school, then if you receive a "C" or better in the college class you will receive transferable credit. One caveat: it is very important to look at the high school's approved core classes on the NCAA Eligibility Center website to be sure that these courses have been approved, and also be sure that your four-year institution will accept courses for college transfer credit that were taken during high school and meet a high school graduation requirement. Most do, but there are a few who won't allow it. Almost every website we have checked actually specifically addresses college courses taken for dual credit during high school.

Sorry for the length of this note but it's near and dear to my heart. 2013 took one AP class last year, is enrolled in another now, and just completed his first dual credit course this semester. He'll take two more in the spring. We're hoping he'll be very prepared for college-level work and also have a solid head start on his credits and not have to take 18 credit hours a semester to graduate in four years . . . especially if he's playing ball.

This is an interesting post and I agree to definitely take AP classes. In my son's case he was looking at smaller academic schools. Most of them included class rank as part of the determination for academic money. In our case some schools used weighted and un weighted GPA.
Also, as mentioned before if a student does well on the AP test they can earn college credit. Another thing to consider, is that AP workload prepares them a college course load. In my son's case the advanced classes in math and science have helped in how he performed in his 1st semester of college.

Last benefit for us was the numerous outside scholarships my son received. Him being able to demonstrate the ability to handle tough classes, multiple sports and participate in student government and other clubs earned a little extra scholarship money from various organizations in our community.

Every little bit helps pay for the cost and I'd encourage any player to look at all the ways in which to pay for school and academics is a good place to start.

quote:

Originally posted by 2013 Parent:
One caveat: it is very important to look at the high school's approved core classes on the NCAA Eligibility Center website to be sure that these courses have been approved...

Click here to see IF your courses gives you NCAA Credit.

My son’s high school did not offer AP classes because they are an International Baccalaureate school. My son worked his butt off in the class room and earned an IB diploma which in its self is no easy feat. He now has the option of skipping a year if he decides to at his college because of this. He was told by plenty of schools who he applied to that it makes a big difference in admissions even though they do not rank. On the flip side taking AP courses and not doing well will work against you.

Neither of my kids were asked their weighted gpa. There isn't even a school district to school district standard for weighting, much less a national standard. They were asked their gpa and what level courses they took.

With the odds on any high school baseball player's future being based on his education rather than his baseball skills, it seems foolish to make decisions based on baseball over education.

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Originally posted by RJM:
Neither of my kids were asked their weighted gpa. There isn't even a school district to school district standard for weighting, much less a national standard. They were asked their gpa and what level courses they took.

With the odds on any high school baseball player's future being based on his education rather than his baseball skills, it seems foolish to make decisions based on baseball over education.

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Originally posted by RJM:
With the odds on any high school baseball player's future being based on his education rather than his baseball skills, it seems foolish to make decisions based on baseball over education.

Bravo! Baseball is going to end someday. You might be 18 or you might be 38. Either way, you have to be prepared for the day after.

I don't know what they called them (AP or Honors or what?) but my son's HS let him take some classes at the school through the local junior college. He was able to enter college with 18 hours under his belt.

Psych101 is Psych101 no matter where you take it. Now, in the Spring of his freshman year, he'll begin taking classes towards his major...should be a little more interesting.

2013 Parent...

What is the influence on admissions of the difficulty of the high school, itself. In other words, does it matter if you go to an "easier" public school and get great grades or go to a top prep school and get average grades? The GPA thing is very confusing in that regard. Does it matter if you are in a class with 8 other kids (all of whom were admitted to a tough prep school) and you are an average student in that class?

In general it is better to take the AP, Honors or regular course work in high school that matches your son's abilities and/or matches your son's college aspirations. I totally understand everybody's academic needs and strategies are different just as they are with baseball. Here are a couple thoughts on the topic:

1) In some cases, your son will get college credit for AP classes if they score 3,4, or 5 on the AP test. We found our in-state schools would transfer AP test with 3's, 4's and 5's. My son' current college (highly competitive academic) would transfer AP credits with 5's only in specific classes. So, transferring AP credits is something you want to look into if you are considering schools out of state, private or highly competitive.

2) APs definitely prepare them for college, and gives them a headstart. Not only will they have learned some of the material but they will have learned how to study....a valuable tool. I can't say enough about this. My son's feedback about his high school engineering ciriculum and AP classes were extremely helpful in helping him understand and prepare for freshmen college engineering.

3) Highly competitive schools look very closely at academic rigor as 2013 Parent suggests. You will be expected to take the most academically rigorous path, AND do well (A's and some B's) to get into the top schools. Acceptance rates are 6-15% at these schools, you have to show you belong. For less competitive schools the academic rigor factor changes as you move down the bell curve.

4) There is more academic money than athletic money, but you have to know where to look, and how it applies. Most top academic institutions will not be giving a lot of academic money because everybody is smart. You'll have to move down that academic bell curve to find schools that offer academic money as incentive to come to there school.

5) biggerpapi and others have argued Psych101 is Psych101 or Calculus101 is Calculus 101 whether or not it is taught at the local Community College, Junior College or Highly Competitive College. I totally disagree. There are too many factors that make it different including the material, who teaches it, and how it is graded. Calculus for Engineers will be different for Calculus for Business majors. At my son's college EVERYTHING is graded on a curve. It is not the same.

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Originally posted by BB13:
2013 Parent...

What is the influence on admissions of the difficulty of the high school, itself. In other words, does it matter if you go to an "easier" public school and get great grades or go to a top prep school and get average grades? The GPA thing is very confusing in that regard. Does it matter if you are in a class with 8 other kids (all of whom were admitted to a tough prep school) and you are an average student in that class?

For colleges within the same state or region they will usually know the reputation of a particular school or district. They also have data available such as average ACT/SAT score and other student profile information for the high school. If Springfield HS has an average ACT of 19 and Johnny took all traditional courses and has straight 'As, he will not be viewed as favorably as Tommy whose HS average ACT is a 27 and he has a 3.7.

We live in such a computerized world and now that applications are primarily submitted and tracked online, it's easy to assume that there's some magic computer that makes the decisions. It's actually committees of people with a very involved rubric to essentially assign points to certain criteria.

This is all excellent info from very knowledgable posters that have kids that have been able to capitalize on their academic rigor and play baeball in college.

These posters may know more about combining the two (baseball and academics) than most high school counselors.

The only thing I can add is personal experience. Son took many AP classes in high school along with 2 classes @ our local junior college. His private college gave him college credit (passed the AP tests with 4's and 5's) for all these classes. Consequently he has had a lighter load than his teammates and will graduate this spring after 4 years. This has been a huge benefit to help him juggle all the demands of academics,studying,working out, and playing bb.

We found each college may weight the GPA differently. In CA all the CSU's and UC's use the same scale but the privates all have their own calculations. Depending on the private college there has been merit aid available in the form of scholarships. This may have changed since we went through the process but son was awarded the Presidents Scholarship from his college(about 20k/ year). Combined with athletic aid this has made college really affordable for us. As long as the student meets 1 of 3 criteria (top10% of HS class, 1200 SAT, or 3.5 GPA) the academic money won't be counted against the teams athletic money. College student also must maintain a certain college GPA to keep his academic scholarship- @ sons school it is a 3.0 (some may be as high as 3.5)

One other thing is if you do the AP classes right there is a chance you can go into your first college semester as a sophomore. When I would go to AP seminars and be in sessions with teachers from all over the country there were many teachers who said they had students earn enough credits through AP, dual credit, IB and other things that their freshmen year was over by the time they came on campus.

In terms of finances if you're able to do this (or get close) you would be saving several thousands of dollars. In terms of sports you can take a lighter course load in the semester you're competing so you can focus more on that instead of worrying about studying so much. Also, you can graduate in 3 years and do your fourth year of sports in a graduate program.

There are so many options as to what you can do if you push yourself academically. If you just do the bare minimum or not push yourself then your at the mercy of the institution as to what you can take and when.

As a teacher I'm really enjoying this thread. It's good to talk and read what others who value education are thinking and experiencing.

[quote]In general it is better to take the AP, Honors or regular course work in high school that matches your son's abilities and/or matches your son's college aspirations.

I agree with Fenway. It is about fit, balance, who your child is, and what they want to do when they graduate.

I have a son who wants to be a lawyer. He has an unweighted A average. He is eating up AP History - has a strong A in it. It is a lot of work, but he understands the benefit.

I have a friend whose son wants to be an engineer. For him, AP History took up too much time given where he wants to end up academically and career-wise. I feel the same way about an AP math class for my son.

Bottom line, there's no one answer here. Getting an A in every AP class doesn't lead to success or happiness. However, if your child's life long dream is to be in the Ivy League he might want to look at it. If it means he graduates high school burned out from the effort, maybe not so great.


Sometimes it is easy to lose sight of the value of balance. I have a daughter who never missed a blink on anything academically,AP everything, graduated Phi Beta Kappa from a good college with a double major (Business/English, and a minor in German). I had to encourage her to balance other interests with school. She always pressured and pushed herself. It is just who she is.

My son is a different type of student. He writes the most beautiful fiction, and I can't wait to read his college admissions essay. But I'm not going to insist that he take AP math. It isn't him, and a school that doesn't want him because he didn't take it isn't the right school for him anyway.

JMHO.

quote:

...they'd go farther with brain then braun.

Freudian typo?

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Originally posted by CaBB:
These posters may know more about combining the two (baseball and academics) than most high school counselors.

This is certainly the case for us. 2013's counselor is brand new to the high school level, so I have been walking her through the process. Unfortunately, our high school's biggest concern is drop-out rate, so NCAA eligibility and high performing students in general take a back seat (but that's a discussion for another day and another forum).

I believe the best thing any parent of a potential student-athlete can do is research, read, and reserach some more. Most of us did when selecting a preschool . . . it just hasn't stopped!

[quote]I believe the best thing any parent of a potential student-athlete can do is research, read, and reserach some more. Most of us did when selecting a preschool . . . it just hasn't stopped!

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Originally posted by fenwaysouth:

5) biggerpapi and others have argued Psych101 is Psych101 or Calculus101 is Calculus 101 whether or not it is taught at the local Community College, Junior College or Highly Competitive College. I totally disagree. There are too many factors that make it different including the material, who teaches it, and how it is graded. Calculus for Engineers will be different for Calculus for Business majors. At my son's college EVERYTHING is graded on a curve. It is not the same.

I strongly agree with the bolded. My experience, which is at a small, very selective liberal arts school has been that there is no better place to learn than here. Classes here are smaller than my (already small) high school, the professors are not only almost all Ivy (or similar) educated, but also extremely enthusiastic - they love to teach what they're teaching. Between that and the quality of fellow student compared to HS as well as the resources available to all for learning, I wish I could come here and relearn everything.

On the other hand, with AP classes - I say take as many as your son/daughter can be successful in. I took 7 in high school, and took 5 AP tests. I came to this school with with enough credits to fit an entire second major (or graduate early) because of AP scores. I think it is most important to take AP courses in subject areas that son/daughter will NOT want to take in college. AP classes will move slower than most college courses and also meet much more often. High school teachers also tend to be much more sympathetic to the fact that students may not be enjoying the subject they're learning about, and are generally more likely to reach out to a struggling student that is afraid to ask for help. I am very glad to have gotten out of math at college and gotten to deal with all of that in high school. It was very good preparation for college, but in a much more controlled atmosphere. I did the same for Biology/Chemistry, which are notoriously more difficult at the college level.

You may need to do some nudging in the direction of AP classes for your son or daughter, especially if they aren't real passionate about school. It can seem like a daunting task based on hearsay, etc. and not the type of thing someone wants to take on, especially in senior year. My experience is that if you put the work in, though, it is well worth it.

quote:

Originally posted by JPontiac:
On the other hand, with AP classes - I say take as many as your son/daughter can be successful in.

I agree!! My son will finish high school this year with 8 AP classes and two dual enrollment classes. One thing with the extra challenge for my son is that he doesn't get bored (or at least too bored) in class. He did have some difficulty for awhile about being the "smart kid" on the baseball team. Fortunately, he finally got over it but he did take a slight hit on his GPA while he was trying to fit in.

Of course, my son also liked the $100 that he received for each Science, Math, and English AP test that he got a 3 or higher on. (Thank you, Gates Foundation). Even getting a 3 on the AP History test resulted in a refund for the cost of the test plus some additional money (I think around $40).

We'll see how well it prepares him for college. I know that I used my extra credits from my AP tests to take lighter loads in college during my sports season and during my senior year.

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Originally posted by CADad:

quote:

...they'd go farther with brain then braun.

Freudian typo?

Chronic spelling disorder and lack of automatic spell checker here. I once took a ruler to the knuckles suggesting to my 5th grade teacher (nun in full habit) that someday computers would check our spelling automatically so I really didn't need to worry about passing spelling tests (circa 1977).

We were both partly correct.

Great discussion on the topic by the way...

Bottom line, they only play baseball to age X. Eventually they need jobs, move out, raise a family, pay bills, etc. You don't do that by getting A's in easy classes.

There is a thought process though. As we got deeper into the process (junior HS year) opportunities popped up and it appeared academic & scholarship money might be available. We started reading the fine print at that point.

One example adjustment we made (with son at 4.99% point and the 5% line being a threshold), was he decided to not take the "manditory" 7th hour baseball class as a senior because an A would actually lower his GPA. He's going to audit it second semester. He'll show up, participate but not get credit. He doesn't need any more credits to graduate, meet the NCAA minimums, etc. so why lower the GPA and risk the 5.01% point?

In his case he was accepted early, academic money offered and accepted so it's a done deal as long as the final transcript doesn't show any serious senioritis. It won't matter this semester (thank you online grades).

The key is to know the rules so you know how to do the best you can.

In my HS, we had leveled classes, so rank order was determined by multiplying "level" by grade. Classes were leveled on a scale of 1 (lowest) to 4 (~honors). If you got an A in a level 4 you received 4 x 4 = 16 points. Total points determined class rank. In my son's example, he would be taking "baseball" for extra points because it would actually help his class rank under that system.

You need to know your system...

Ok, so there are a lot of us out here with kids that are good students and good baseball players (should be able to perform collegiately in both areas) that are just B students. Some go to private high schools with a really strong curriculum. They will make mostly B's but an occasional C and hopefully an equal number of A's. They won't take any AP classes, but are in some advanced classes, which they usually make B's in.

As parents we expect to have to pay the brunt of their college education but because they love to play the game of baseball, and do a pretty good job of it, we would like to find any opportunities we can for some tuition relief through athletic scholarships.

What are the best paths for these types of players.

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Originally posted by 2014_Lefty_Dad:
Ok, so there are a lot of us out here with kids that are good students and good baseball players (should be able to perform collegiately in both areas) that are just B students. Some go to private high schools with a really strong curriculum. They will make mostly B's but an occasional C and hopefully an equal number of A's. They won't take any AP classes, but are in some advanced classes, which they usually make B's in.

As parents we expect to have to pay the brunt of their college education but because they love to play the game of baseball, and do a pretty good job of it, we would like to find any opportunities we can for some tuition relief through athletic scholarships.

What are the best paths for these types of players.

I think you will find the vast majority of college students are like this (taking away the baseball aspect). They are sharp and do a good job but they are not the elite but are capable of getting the job done in high school. This was me back in the day. My school never offered AP classes until my senior year when they let us take AP Biology and it kicked me in the mouth like an upset donkey would. I still got in a strong academic school and I probably made more C's than A's back in the day but my ACT score was really good.

People like this can still take a college prep pathway that will get them into most schools by taking the regular and honors classes. Most schools will offer the AP classes at a full point more than the standard point system and then an honors class that is a .5 higher than the standard system. Through this they can still get academic scholarships and grants to help alleveate the cost of college.

The best thing to do is make an appointment with the guidance counselor and ask them what is out there in terms of scholarships / grants that your kids are eligible for. Finding scholarships for kids is part of their job.

I'm assuming that your son is a sophomore since you have 2014 in your name. It's still early enough to get on this type of path with his classes. A good counselor will usually get this type of information out to the kids / community somehow. In our school we meet in homeroom and each teacher explains it to the kids and then we do an open night where the parents can come in and get the same message. We had out course description catalogs that show what classes to take to get on a certain path.

My advice is to sit down with a counselor and figure out a path over the summer before freshman or sophomore year. If they are a junior or senior still meet with counselor and they can still do things with their schedule to maximize their chance to get into college.

The ultimate thing is no matter what path you take the kid has to get the job done in the classroom to the best of their ability.

Lefty - Like Coach2709 says, sit down with a councilor and see what is out there. Talk to a few councilors, and see if you can get a hold of an admissions department at your local college/university. They are VERY willing to help and explain things and in the end, it is the university admissions department opinion that matters. As it was stated in previous posts not all HS guidance councilors are as up to speed as others may be.

From my Son's prospective the AP classes and honors classes really helped.

He was always a good ball player but being a Sept. birthday (a whole other thread)and being almost a year younger and having the disadvatage to have me as part of his genetic pool (under 6 feet an a whopping 150.) He probaly was never a Div I prospect. He had several walk on d II and Many high acedemic DIII interest. He ended up choosing a DIII

Part of the financial package included a academic Scholoarship. To keep that scholarship he needs to have at least a 3 point after his sophmore year. He took several AP courses but did not seriously study for the AP exam and only recieved a credit for calculus. At first I was not happy about it, but now that he is in college and "re-taking" these courses, (Chemistry and Spainish) He is getting A's in all of them. With his B in English he will have at least this quarter to "pad" his GPA and help him get to his goal.

These classes helped him get ready for at least his first semester at his College and prepared him for the academics at his school.