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111 replies

Hit the ball in the air.

D 2020dad
Originally Posted by snowman:

       

I've always been a supporter of the line drive or "hitting the middle half of the ball". A couple years ago I spent time watching MLB games charting swings in a completely unscientific (feet up with a beer, clip board and pencil) study. My criteria were simply: was the swing under the ball (including complete misses, pop ups, fly balls most home runs etc), on top of the ball (again complete misses, fouls, ground balls foul and ground balls fair) or in the middle of the ball (line drives). After several games the results showed 60% of swings were under the ball. The remaining 40% was pretty evenly split between on top and in the middle.

An extreme example came during a Brewers game. The first batter of the inning steps up and his first swing results in a pop foul out of play. His next swing is a repeat. 3rd swing the same and his 4th swing results in yet another pop foul only this is playable and caught by the catcher. 4 swings all under the ball resulting in an out. The next guy comes up and essentially does the same thing only he pops the the ball up on 5 straight swings resulting in an out when the 5th pop foul was also caught by the catcher. The numbers: 2 batters. 9 swings. 9 pop fouls. 2 outs.

I thought about this and came away with the following. The balls were at different heights during swings and yet these guys were good enough to consistently swing "under" the ball. So my question was if they are skilled enough to make that adjustment why can't they make another adjustment and hit the ball consistently in the middle? Or are they so dialed in that hitting under for them was automatic?

Again, theses 2 guys are an extreme example but interesting to say the least.

 


       
remember the pitcher has something to say about this too.  Were the pitchers high velocity?  High rpm guys?  Read up on spin rates on fastballs.  Fascinating stuff.
S snowman100+ posts
Originally Posted by 2020dad:
Originally Posted by snowman:

       

I've always been a supporter of the line drive or "hitting the middle half of the ball". A couple years ago I spent time watching MLB games charting swings in a completely unscientific (feet up with a beer, clip board and pencil) study. My criteria were simply: was the swing under the ball (including complete misses, pop ups, fly balls most home runs etc), on top of the ball (again complete misses, fouls, ground balls foul and ground balls fair) or in the middle of the ball (line drives). After several games the results showed 60% of swings were under the ball. The remaining 40% was pretty evenly split between on top and in the middle.

An extreme example came during a Brewers game. The first batter of the inning steps up and his first swing results in a pop foul out of play. His next swing is a repeat. 3rd swing the same and his 4th swing results in yet another pop foul only this is playable and caught by the catcher. 4 swings all under the ball resulting in an out. The next guy comes up and essentially does the same thing only he pops the the ball up on 5 straight swings resulting in an out when the 5th pop foul was also caught by the catcher. The numbers: 2 batters. 9 swings. 9 pop fouls. 2 outs.

I thought about this and came away with the following. The balls were at different heights during swings and yet these guys were good enough to consistently swing "under" the ball. So my question was if they are skilled enough to make that adjustment why can't they make another adjustment and hit the ball consistently in the middle? Or are they so dialed in that hitting under for them was automatic?

Again, theses 2 guys are an extreme example but interesting to say the least.

 


       
remember the pitcher has something to say about this too.  Were the pitchers high velocity?  High rpm guys?  Read up on spin rates on fastballs.  Fascinating stuff.

 

S snowman100+ posts

Can't argue the fact that what the ball is doing can have an effect upon impact with the bat.

And please let me reiterate that mine was a totally unscientific study using a very small sample size and not intended to mean anything more than "hmm".

So, how far do you think the impact point moves up the ball where the resulting flight transitions from "in the air" to line drive territory? I realize that other factors are involved but just trying to keep it basic. My thinking is that even with a high spin rate pitcher there is a point where that spin is essentially negated resulting in the more desirable line drive type hit.

D 2020dad
Originally Posted by snowman:

       

Can't argue the fact that what the ball is doing can have an effect upon impact with the bat.

And please let me reiterate that mine was a totally unscientific study using a very small sample size and not intended to mean anything more than "hmm".

So, how far do you think the impact point moves up the ball where the resulting flight transitions from "in the air" to line drive territory? I realize that other factors are involved but just trying to keep it basic. My thinking is that even with a high spin rate pitcher there is a point where that spin is essentially negated resulting in the more desirable line drive type hit.


       
sorry Didn't explain the effects of spin rate.  You are right if you square it up the spin rate certainly will not magically prevent a line drive.  The effect of spin rate is the ball fights gravity and doesn't drop as much.  This provides that optical illusion of a rising fastball and tricks the brain.  Very high swing and miss ratio and pop up ratio.
C cabbagedadHSBaseballWeb member since 2011

Great discussion.  Another great post by Coach May.  He is considered by many here, including myself, as one who sets the gold standard with so many of his methods, thoughts and messages.  HOWEVER... I believe part of his message here on the board is simplified for the sake of, well, keeping things simple.  Coach, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that when it comes down to hands on instruction, Coach would certainly also make sure that swing mechanics are in order to hit lots of line drives as opposed to lots of fly balls or ground balls.  Yes, I think we all agree that hitting the ball hard, mashing it in the face is the right approach and mentality.  But if, for example, a player with a small build has a swing plane/intent to hit the ball in the air, that is a mechanic that needs adjusted.  If a big guy with bat speed, strength and athleticism has a swing plane that drives the ball down most of the time, I don't care how hard he hits it, the plane intent should probably be adjusted.

 

And to GH's point... We're a small school.  We've had a few instances where we brought up freshman with excellent speed and a good glove but NO power as freshmen, one a LH hitter and the other a switch.  With each, the first year, we encouraged more of an approach from the left side where they look middle out and try to drive the ball thru the 5-6 hole.  Missing down was encouraged over missing up.  This resulted in quite a few ground ball hits that they beat out with speed.  With each, the following year as they got stronger, we started adjusting the swing plane intent and expanding use of all fields.  One is currently playing in college and the other is well on his way to do the same.  Granted, this type of hitter and situation is the exception. 

 

S Smitty2810,000+ posts
Originally Posted by Coach_May:

 

Hitting is not a job. "Do your job." I get so sick of hearing this at the youth and HS levels. It's not a job. It should be the most fun part of the game. Get up there and look to mash the baseball. Have some fun.

 

This is fantastic, this is what it's all about!  I'm going to tell this to my kid this weekend.

LB luv baseball5,000+ posts
Originally Posted by Smitty28:
Originally Posted by Coach_May:

 

Hitting is not a job. "Do your job." I get so sick of hearing this at the youth and HS levels. It's not a job. It should be the most fun part of the game. Get up there and look to mash the baseball. Have some fun.

 

This is fantastic, this is what it's all about!  I'm going to tell this to my kid this weekend.

I have to be honest - the words fun and baseball were never used together at my son's
school.  For my son the entire game of baseball became a job in 8th grade when he made the JV.  It was sad and in retrospect pathetic.

J jacjacatk5,000+ posts
Originally Posted by Stats4Gnats:

 

I’m just saying that if the sample size accurately portrays what took place, it doesn’t matter if it’s small or large

 
Sample size always matters.  For someone with Stats in their username, you'd think this would be obvious.
 
Originally Posted by Stats4Gnats:

 

If someone is ignorant enough to try to project what a 16YO player will be when he’s 24 based on any sample size, that’s their problem. 

 
Projecting 16 YO players is extremely difficult for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that they mostly aren't anywhere near peak physical maturity.  That doesn't make it impossible, it's just that the error bars on individual projections will be quite large. In the aggregate, projections on 16 YO (and 18, 21, 24, etc YO) players work fairly well, which is why teams/organizations spend lots of money on scouting, and ultimately signing, young players.
 
Originally Posted by Stats4Gnats:

 

However, if someone has set his standards and is looking to see who’s doing the best job of meeting them, it doesn’t matter if the sample number of PAs is 1 or a million.

 
This belies a fundamental misunderstanding of statistics/sample size.
 
Originally Posted by Stats4Gnats:

 

I’m very aware that my thoughts are only opinions, but that doesn’t mean they’re wrong. 

 
It's not inherently a guarantee, but there's a fair amount of evidence pointing to that conclusion in a lot of cases.
 
Originally Posted by Stats4Gnats:

 

What you’re trying to say is that your “eye test” is a better measurement than the data coming from any sample size. That amounts to saying the only valid sample size is one taken after a player is finished playing.

 
I don't think that's at all what anyone's saying. What they are saying is that, for the small sample sizes of "hard" data involved, a simple eye test system, say the 1-9 grading of contact posted upthread somewhere, is substantially as useful, and far simpler, than a lot of other ways of trying to objectively judge players. It may even be more predictive/useful given the nature of luck involved in the game and the sample sizes of they typical HS season.
 
GHHS-2016LHPGHHS-2016LHP1,000+ posts
Originally Posted by Stats4Gnats:

Originally Posted by GHHS-2016LHP:

I'm saying it's fun to spin you up and watch you go. I guess you bring out my inner troll.

 

I was thinking you were like so many others who  lacked the courage to stand up for their convictions, and I guess I was right.No biggee.

I resent that statement...I have never been convicted of anything in my life.

M miller3100+ posts
Originally Posted by 2020dad:
Originally Posted by miller3:

       

When it comes to production, I look at OBP more so than AVE. Runners turn into runs. Getting on base by error is equal to getting on with a base hit imo. I keep it simple and tell them to wait for a pitch they can drive. Ground ball? Fly ball? I don't concern myself with it as long as it's hot. They tend to get the mental edge the next AB. FWIW, when I'm in the 3rd base coach's box, I do verbally suggest "line drive". Just a reminder what we are trying to accomplish majority of AB's. This simply one coach's opinion.


       
If you are going that route perhaps woba would be better.  But I still like BA at the youth and high school level and I will tell you why.  There are a lot of bad pitchers out there and if you wait them out - especially if you can foul a couple off - you will get that walk.  Many soft hitters do just that.  But when you face good pitching they disappear.   Then you depend on the kids who can actually hit!

I am speaking at the younger age, up through HS. Here's one for you, a couple years ago I had a SR (high school) lefty who hit a solid .085 on the season. However, he had the highest walk/AB and one of the higher OBP on the team. Just like you said he would wait out the pitcher to draw a walk or he would get hit with a pitch. He had one hit all season. A few other times he reached on errors. The point is: The odds were if we needed him to get on base, it would go in our favor. That's precisely why I said OBP is more important to me than hits. No coach in their right mind would ever deliberately stick a .085 hitter in the lineup. I would! Why? Because they reach base 2/3 of their AB's.

J jacjacatk5,000+ posts
Originally Posted by GHHS-2016LHP:
Originally Posted by Stats4Gnats:

Originally Posted by GHHS-2016LHP:

I'm saying it's fun to spin you up and watch you go. I guess you bring out my inner troll.

 

I was thinking you were like so many others who  lacked the courage to stand up for their convictions, and I guess I was right.No biggee.

I resent that statement...I have never been convicted of anything in my life.

Convicted?  No, never convicted.

D 2020dad
Originally Posted by miller3:

       
Originally Posted by 2020dad:
Originally Posted by miller3:

       
When it comes to production, I look at OBP more so than AVE. Runners turn into runs. Getting on base by error is equal to getting on with a base hit imo. I keep it simple and tell them to wait for a pitch they can drive. Ground ball? Fly ball? I don't concern myself with it as long as it's hot. They tend to get the mental edge the next AB. FWIW, when I'm in the 3rd base coach's box, I do verbally suggest "line drive". Just a reminder what we are trying to accomplish majority of AB's. This simply one coach's opinion.

      
If you are going that route perhaps woba would be better.  But I still like BA at the youth and high school level and I will tell you why.  There are a lot of bad pitchers out there and if you wait them out - especially if you can foul a couple off - you will get that walk.  Many soft hitters do just that.  But when you face good pitching they disappear.   Then you depend on the kids who can actually hit!
I am speaking at the younger age, up through HS. Here's one for you, a couple years ago I had a SR (high school) lefty who hit a solid .085 on the season. However, he had the highest walk/AB and one of the higher OBP on the team. Just like you said he would wait out the pitcher to draw a walk or he would get hit with a pitch. He had one hit all season. A few other times he reached on errors. The point is: The odds were if we needed him to get on base, it would go in our favor. That's precisely why I said OBP is more important to me than hits. No coach in their right mind would ever deliberately stick a .085 hitter in the lineup. I would! Why? Because they reach base 2/3 of their AB's.

       
Right up to the point when they face a good pitcher who won't walk them then they are useless.  Prepare your teams to beat the good teams/pitchers.  Don't be a bumslayer like jay cutler!
Last edited by 2020dad
M miller3100+ posts

Here's another thing to consider when talking about contact. MLB'ers this day and age have substantial amount more strength then in decades past (minus roid era). With that being said, Ty Cobb felt the art of hitting was in the base hit and running bases. Now, the $ comes with the long ball. Why did Bryant say he was looking to hit the ball in the air? To create back spin for potential HR's. You get on top of the ball and you are hitting low line drives or ground balls. It sounds like he would rather go 0-4 with four fly outs (and those 4 fly outs having chance of being a HR), the 1-4,2-4, etc, with those ol' boring seeing eye singles. I may be wrong here, but reading between the lines got me to this opinion.

M miller3100+ posts
Originally Posted by 2020dad:
Originally Posted by miller3:

       
Originally Posted by 2020dad:
Originally Posted by miller3:

       
When it comes to production, I look at OBP more so than AVE. Runners turn into runs. Getting on base by error is equal to getting on with a base hit imo. I keep it simple and tell them to wait for a pitch they can drive. Ground ball? Fly ball? I don't concern myself with it as long as it's hot. They tend to get the mental edge the next AB. FWIW, when I'm in the 3rd base coach's box, I do verbally suggest "line drive". Just a reminder what we are trying to accomplish majority of AB's. This simply one coach's opinion.

      
If you are going that route perhaps woba would be better.  But I still like BA at the youth and high school level and I will tell you why.  There are a lot of bad pitchers out there and if you wait them out - especially if you can foul a couple off - you will get that walk.  Many soft hitters do just that.  But when you face good pitching they disappear.   Then you depend on the kids who can actually hit!
I am speaking at the younger age, up through HS. Here's one for you, a couple years ago I had a SR (high school) lefty who hit a solid .085 on the season. However, he had the highest walk/AB and one of the higher OBP on the team. Just like you said he would wait out the pitcher to draw a walk or he would get hit with a pitch. He had one hit all season. A few other times he reached on errors. The point is: The odds were if we needed him to get on base, it would go in our favor. That's precisely why I said OBP is more important to me than hits. No coach in their right mind would ever deliberately stick a .085 hitter in the lineup. I would! Why? Because they reach base 2/3 of their AB's.

       
Right up to the point when they face a good pitcher who won't walk them then they are useless.  Prepare your teams to beat the good teams/pitchers.  Don't be a bumslayer like jay cutler!

Don't get me wrong, he didn't see a "good pitcher" depending on whatever qualifications one needs to have at the HS level? I feel that statement is relative. Anyways, we knew how he would react in certain situations. Majority of the time he would look for one pitch to swing at. If it wasn't there, he wasn't swinging. So... We didn't have to worry about him swinging at garbage over his head or in the dirt. If nothing else, he would draw the count full. That was our goal. Make that pitcher throw a lot of pitches to this batter. THEN he would either draw a walk (most of the time), which would frustrate the pitcher, or take a third strike, knee high, window shopping. It would aggravate me to no end, but under the circumstances after working with him for a couple seasons, his playing days were numbered. Academics was his calling. He helped out the team the best he could and I'm thankful for that.

S Smitty2810,000+ posts
Originally Posted by miller3:

Why did Bryant say he was looking to hit the ball in the air? To create back spin for potential HR's. You get on top of the ball and you are hitting low line drives or ground balls. It sounds like he would rather go 0-4 with four fly outs (and those 4 fly outs having chance of being a HR), the 1-4,2-4, etc, with those ol' boring seeing eye singles. I may be wrong here, but reading between the lines got me to this opinion.

Sure, he'd like to hit home runs, but if that was the main benefit of hitting the ball in the air then he'd have a horrific BA (30-40 homers in 600 ABs).  I believe his point is that hitting the ball in the air gives you a better chance of getting base hits (fewer defenders covering much greater area as others have pointed out) with the added benefit of extra base hits and the occasional home run.  The result is better BA, better slugging percentage, more homers.

Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts

Originally Posted by 2020dad:

Right up to the point when they face a good pitcher who won't walk them then they are useless.  Prepare your teams to beat the good teams/pitchers.  Don't be a bumslayer like jay cutler!

 

It seems pretty obvious to me that you don’t know a great deal about HS baseball. A kid like that will help his team a lot because more often than not his team won’t be playing against “good teams/pitchers”. So why not use him and let him contribute where he can.

 

It would really be great if every team was loaded with lots of talented players and only played teams who were good and had good pitching. But that’s not the real world! More often than not a HS team will be playing teams hovering around “average” with pitchers who are hovering around “average” as well.

 

Should every coach try to raise every player in his charge to the highest level those players are capable of playing? Yes, but within reason. They aren’t all capable of getting to the ML, Mil, college, or even being just being regular starters on their HS team.

D 2020dad
Originally Posted by Stats4Gnats:

       

Originally Posted by 2020dad:

Right up to the point when they face a good pitcher who won't walk them then they are useless.  Prepare your teams to beat the good teams/pitchers.  Don't be a bumslayer like jay cutler!

 

It seems pretty obvious to me that you don’t know a great deal about HS baseball. A kid like that will help his team a lot because more often than not his team won’t be playing against “good teams/pitchers”. So why not use him and let him contribute where he can.

 

It would really be great if every team was loaded with lots of talented players and only played teams who were good and had good pitching. But that’s not the real world! More often than not a HS team will be playing teams hovering around “average” with pitchers who are hovering around “average” as well.

 

Should every coach try to raise every player in his charge to the highest level those players are capable of playing? Yes, but within reason. They aren’t all capable of getting to the ML, Mil, college, or even being just being regular starters on their HS team.


       
Oh lord he we go again on another thread.  This time with a professional baiter.  I know most people don't bother to read past posts and that's unfortunate.  As I have said and will say again it is NOT all about winning and losing.  And for me I just don't believe in doing things that way.  Different philosophies I suppose.   I am pretty comfortable with mine.  The day will never ever come when I encourage a kid to go to the plate looking for a walk.  Not even tacitly will I do this.  Now once again someone gets personal saying its obvious I don't know a lot about high school baseball.  Why is there so much immaturity here?  Why can't we disagree and even have heated debate without going personal and attacking?  I wonder how many people would still be comfortable doing this face to face?  Stats what you said was incorrect.  I certainly know quite a lot about high school baseball.  But if you just wanted to increase your manhood by throwing an insult out there good for you.  As fir me these last couple days have been exhausting.  What was a fun hobby getting on here and talking baseball has turned way too confrontational for me.  This is utterly stupid grown adults insulting each other over a keyboard.   I am logging out.  I really try never ti be the first one to go personal or insult people.  If I have ever been the first I sincerely apologize.   In any case I must confess once I feel attacked I have an almost impossible time letting it go.  It is making this site no longer fun for me.  Therefore starting now I am suspending myself from this site for a period of one week!  I need to take some time and figure out id the 'hobby' is worth the frustration.  I am an older former teacher who now substitutes and coaches.  Subbing is kind of boring.  While the kids sit and do their assignment messing around on here gives me something to do.  But it is not worth the terrible feeling it gives me inside when I get dragged into fights.  This site can be a lot of fun if we all keep it classy.  I certainly have failed to help with that pursuit over the last couple days.  Stats you may also want to take some time and think about this as should others.  And that is precisely what I am going to do.
F 2forU1,000+ posts
Originally Posted by Golfman25:
Originally Posted by Everyday Dad:

Saw this quote. Is this taught in the hitting instructors circles? If it isn't I'm thinking it should.

You have 3 OF guys covering a much larger area than 5 IF including the pitcher, covering the infield.

It would make sense since we all want our pitchers to get ground balls.

 

“My goal every game is to go out and hit the ball in the air four times,” Kris Bryant said. “If I do that, I’m accomplishing my goal"

So he would be happy with four pop up?

 

line drives are what you want.  I think the stat is 70% of line drives fall for base hits.  

I'd be happy to see kids have fewer strikeouts, more contact of any kind, and if we have to have a preference, line drives would be it. I see kids trying to hit the ball so hard, they move their heads, either up and down or towards the pitcher which results in a miss or a poorly hit ball. 

kandkfunkkandkfunk1,000+ posts
Just spent the entire day watching a HS double header and hearing the first base coach tell every single kid to hit the top half of the ball. It seems to me, from a physics perspective, that hitting the top half of the ball will most likely result in ground balls. I've heard this mantra for many years and it's always confused me. If the goal is to really smash the ball and hit it in the face, it seems like you can't really do that by hitting the top half of the ball. Am I misunderstanding the instruction in some way?
G Golfman2510,000+ posts
Originally Posted by kandkfunk:
Just spent the entire day watching a HS double header and hearing the first base coach tell every single kid to hit the top half of the ball. It seems to me, from a physics perspective, that hitting the top half of the ball will most likely result in ground balls. I've heard this mantra for many years and it's always confused me. If the goal is to really smash the ball and hit it in the face, it seems like you can't really do that by hitting the top half of the ball. Am I misunderstanding the instruction in some way?

Yes.  It is not a literal instruction.  It is designed to focus the mind to help prevent hitting under the ball.  Pop ups are just as bad as ground balls. 

D 2020dad
Originally Posted by kandkfunk:

       
Just spent the entire day watching a HS double header and hearing the first base coach tell every single kid to hit the top half of the ball. It seems to me, from a physics perspective, that hitting the top half of the ball will most likely result in ground balls. I've heard this mantra for many years and it's always confused me. If the goal is to really smash the ball and hit it in the face, it seems like you can't really do that by hitting the top half of the ball. Am I misunderstanding the instruction in some way?
c
       
Nope I think you got it pretty down pat.  I have echoed this frustration many times.  Why we can't get.this out of the game is beyond me.
D 2020dad
Originally Posted by Golfman25:

       
Originally Posted by kandkfunk:
Just spent the entire day watching a HS double header and hearing the first base coach tell every single kid to hit the top half of the ball. It seems to me, from a physics perspective, that hitting the top half of the ball will most likely result in ground balls. I've heard this mantra for many years and it's always confused me. If the goal is to really smash the ball and hit it in the face, it seems like you can't really do that by hitting the top half of the ball. Am I misunderstanding the instruction in some way?

Yes.  It is not a literal instruction.  It is designed to focus the mind to help prevent hitting under the ball.  Pop ups are just as bad as ground balls. 


       
Golf I get what you are saying and completely understand.  But as I have said before it is not just a queue for a lot of coaches.  They honestly and wholeheartedly believe it.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts

Originally Posted by 2020dad:

Golf I get what you are saying and completely understand.  But as I have said before it is not just a queue for a lot of coaches.  They honestly and wholeheartedly believe it.

 

While I believe there are those who say it only as a cue, I also believe there are many more who honestly believe it. Why else would something so ridiculous on its face continue to be part of baseball lexicon? Squishing the bug was another one, and it’s taken decades to make it rare to hear some coach urging his charges to do it.

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