Hit Your Cut Man!!!!

Wow.....

You simply keep the throw down to give the cut-off man / relay man (call him what you like) a chance to catch the ball.

It simply keeps other baserunners from advancing on a throw that cannot be cut. If it can't be cut (in most cases too high) then baserunners advance.


People tend to make it much more difficult than it is.......Just keep the throw down.

And something that helps with this problem is this.

Very simple.

Incorporate taking infield to daily practice.

When taking infield AT ALL TIMES......make your team cut the ball and throw to a base that was not the intended base.

Example:

Throws Home......cut to second or third.....
Throws to 3rd....cut to first or second.....

Be creative.....but please quit yelling "hit the cut-off man".....they know that already.....most just don't make it a priority or take the time to teach WHY IT IS IMPORTANT......TO KEEP RUNNERS FROM ADVANCING......PERIOD.....

It is not the outfielder's decision where to throw. Where on earth did you get that idea?

The catcher makes that call and yells it to the field. The infielders line up in cut/relay position accordingly. The outfielder is supposed to know the situation and anticipate where he's going to go, but in the end he is supposed to listen and respond as a part of a defensive unit. Under no circumstances is he to simply take it upon himself to air mail a throw where ever he darned well pleases.

An outfielder who misses the cut man is indulging himself to the detriment of the team.

Bear in mind that right up until he loads to throw, the OF is watching the BALL, not the runners. The catcher is the guy with everything in front of him and he is ALWAYS in charge of this situation. A good catcher will chew your hind parts off if you ignore him.

We always say that a good outfielder is like a labrador retriever. Let them run it down and get rid of it quick. No thinking allowed.

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Let me get this straight Doughnutman...I'm not allowed to think.



Who thought of that?

Midlo Dad....The guy who has the ball ultimately decides where to throw it..... a fact of nature. Hopefully his decision is a good one.

I've seen on the D2 level, 1 out, line drive shallow rt field...possible but unlikely catch..bases loaded...the catcher hollering 4, the 3rd baseman hollering 3 and the SS hollering 2 as various runners read the possible catch differently.

Outfielder played a very short hop...came up gunning home, 1st base cut (about 40 ft in front of plate)and went 3 to get forced runner at 3rd (and almost runner going to 2 as he froze on the liner).....run scored as guy on 3rd read it as it would not be a catch and broke on the hit. Had he froze at 3rd he likely would have been out on the force.

The outfielder had to decide where he was going well before the catch/throw so he could be on line with his throw to come up gunning in an quick fashion.

This is the way it should work.

OF should know the situations before the pitch is thrown. Because he and the catcher are trained with the same basic concepts in mind, they should be on the same page. So, the OF can definitely set his footwork in anticipation of throwing where he believes he should go.

But if the catcher is yelling something in particular, he is the captain of the defense, and the OF needs to adjust to throw where he's told. In the example you give, throwing home was not smart because the runner, you say, read the hit correctly and broke on contact. There was never going to be a play on him. Maybe OF thinks there will be a play at the plate on the runner trying to score from 2nd, but as you say, he got a bad read and even with the cut they got him at 3rd and almost relayed to turn a DP at 2nd.

Now, suppose the throw had gone to 3d in the first place. One less throw, so your relay to 2nd is in time to turn the DP. And those being force plays, if those happened to end the inning (if there had been one out when this all started), no run would have scored even though the runner had already crossed home.

In that situation, if C is yelling "THREE" and my OF throws it home, OF had better get ready for a lesson when he comes back into the dugout. The fact is, the C is in a position to see all the runners and to see the play develop, while the OF is rightly concentrating on looking the ball into his glove. That's why the C is in charge, period.

OF will have to make a decision only if the C fails to meet his responsibility to call out commands.

A situation like that happened in last night's Nats-Cubs game. Runners on 1st and 3rd, no outs, swinging bunt bounced to the pitcher. Catcher stands at home with his hands at his sides and says nothing. P has to look to see if the runner from 3d is coming; he is, so P tries to get the ball home. Except that in the moment he looked to check the runner, he muffed the ball. Scored E-1, but really C's fault. If C makes the call as he is supposed to, P is not supposed to second guess C's decision by looking at the runners, he's just supposed to catch it and get it to the C at the plate for the play.

This is how mental miscues can lead to errors. And it's lack of fundamentals in situations like these that got Manny Acta fired.

Sounds like you're an OF yourself who thinks you know what you're doing and you want to make the call. If you played for me and persistently did as you suggest, you'd sit until you learned a lesson in team play and humility.

P.S.

The proper term is cutoff man, not relay man, because relay throws are not always made. Some times there is no play to be made, so the best decision is to simply control the ball and thus prevent further advances.

quote:

The proper term is cutoff man

thank you.

Reminds me of a story back in the 80's when Daryl Strawberry and Keith Hernandez got into a little fracas in the clubhouse ... no one got upset; in fact several were happy to see Strawberry finally hit a cut-off man.

Can't stress enough the importance of getting the ball through the cutoff man's head, or at least make it cutable. I've seen my teammates do this nonsense where they decide what to do instead of getting the ball to the cut man and it costs bases which turn into runs. You can't win the game if you can't do the basic things to prevent runs from scoring.

But coach it’s your fault I can’t hit the cut! All fall and winter you have us play high parabolic arc non-specific Long toss and this is the mechanic I produce when asked to throw ballisticly, I just can’t stop flying it now?

quote:

But coach it’s your fault I can’t hit the cut! All fall and winter you have us play high parabolic arc non-specific Long toss and this is the mechanic I produce when asked to throw ballisticly, I just can’t stop flying it now?

Get a life Yardbird. No one teaches long toss the way you describe it.

I'll attempt to interpret Yardbird's post into what a coach would actually hear if a player brought that excuse.

"But coach, it's not my fault that I can't throw a baseball 150 ft to target like the other kids on the team that all do the same throwing workouts. I know this because my Daddy told me he read an article and joined a baseball sect cult that said it was all your fault and I'm the most perfect thing ever. How could you ever expect me to get on top of a ball and keep it low???"

Fin

Watch a MLB game and see how many cut offs are missed in a game!!!!

It will shock you

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Watch a MLB game and see how many cut offs are missed in a game!!!!

It will shock you

ain't it the truth

and how many throws to the plate that are waaaaaay off line

I get the strong sense that MLB cares far more about offense than defense when it comes to OFs. Sure they have to perform at some minimally acceptable level, but the number of weak-armed, fundamentally unsound OFs is shocking.

Most people think those guys are just spoiled, but a serious issue is that once they end spring training, they really don't practice it that much. The grind of daily games and taking advantage of the few days off they get have left a lot of teams not really taking good, old-fashioned infield practice any more.

quote:

Originally posted by cball:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Watch a MLB game and see how many cut offs are missed in a game!!!!

It will shock you

ain't it the truth

and how many throws to the plate that are waaaaaay off line

It's unbelievable the high percentage of poor throws from mlb outfielders. I agree with Midlo that much of that comes from practice neglect. I imagine if you couple that with weight training designed to increase hitting power, your throwing skill probably will become less reliable. And as Holden C said, that's the focus for most OF's.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
The proper term is cutoff man, not relay man...

Actually, they are both proper terms. Cutoff man lines himself up between the OF and the OF's target (mainly on balls in front of the OF) and the relay man is the target (on balls that make the OF turn his back on the runners).

You are the first person I've ever heard to use that term that way.

Maybe it's a midwesterner thing?

I'm a midwesterner, but it is a worldwide thing!

Probably not the most important thing, but technically there is a difference between a cut off man and a relay man.

Most often a relay man is used on a ball hit to the fence. Actually part of No Doubles Defense at times. ie. ball hit to LC wall, SS is relay man, 2B trails SS and positions behind SS in case of bad throw from OF, 1B trails runner to 2B.

Guess it doesn't really matter if someone wants to call the SS a cutoff man or relay man, but technically in this situation the SS serves as a relay man. More important than lining up the throw for a cut, is to get out there in a position to relay quickly, knowing you are backed up if the throw is a bad one. This is not a case where the outfielder throws to a base, through the cut off man lined up with the target. This is simply getting the ball relayed in as quickly as possible.

I've heard it called both ways... I think we would all agree... More important than what it might be called is how the cutoff or relay is executed.

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That's right PG.

When it comes to the relay, execution is the key.



So crucial, in fact, that it really is a good idea to have it closely supervised by someone who has obviously been there and done that!




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Woody, if you're going to show up at my practices with a camera, let me know so I can wear a different hat. Does the yellow make me look fat? Be honest.

PG, exactly right...the distiction between cutoff man and relay man is really only important to the player who is learning to be an outfielder. He needs to know what his targets are at different times in the game. If his target is a base when the ball is in front of him (singles), the guy who may or may not cut off his throw is the "cutoff man". It's the OF's responsibility to make the throw at the proper height that it can be cut, but he is throwing to the base, not the man. It's the responsibility of the cutoff man with guidance from the target player (C or 3B) to be in the correct position to cut the throw if needed.

On occasions where the OF turns and chases the ball (extra base hits), his target is the infielder who is running out to receive his throw and relay to the appropriate base (relay man).

Once players understand the difference, it becomes less important what you call the cutoff/relay man; the OF should know when his target is a base and when it is a player. Too many youth coaches teach OF's to always throw to the infielder, making the cutoff man a relay man on all plays. It tends to lead to a little confusion later, but it's not that hard to correct.

quote:

Originally posted by Harv:
1 out, line drive shallow rt field...possible but unlikely catch..bases loaded...the catcher hollering 4, the 3rd baseman hollering 3 and the SS hollering 2 as various runners read the possible catch differently.

Outfielder played a very short hop...came up gunning home, 1st base cut (about 40 ft in front of plate)and went 3 to get forced runner at 3rd (and almost runner going to 2 as he froze on the liner).....run scored as guy on 3rd read it as it would not be a catch and broke on the hit. Had he froze at 3rd he likely would have been out on the force.

The outfielder had to decide where he was going well before the catch/throw so he could be on line with his throw to come up gunning in an quick fashion.

This is the way it should work.

Out of curiousity, who's the pitcher backing up, Home or third?

Its the OF resposibility to listen to the catcher or cuttoff man call out what base to throw the ball to, and its the cuttoff man's responsibility to be lined up and at the correct depth to be able to cut your throw if he needs to.

Shoot the ball on a low line to the base you need to throw, and if the cuttoff man is too close to you to cut the throw, its really his fault. OF'er should throw through the cuttoff man, not to him.

I would expect the coach to have a few words for the 3b and 2b who are yelling to throw it to them, when the C has made a different call. It's a symphony and everyone needs to play their part.

When thinking about the OF'ers knowing where to throw the ball, my favorite phrase from Bull Durham comes to mind "Don't think, Meat, you'll hurt the team."

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:

quote:

Originally posted by Harv:
1 out, line drive shallow rt field...possible but unlikely catch..bases loaded...the catcher hollering 4, the 3rd baseman hollering 3 and the SS hollering 2 as various runners read the possible catch differently.

Outfielder played a very short hop...came up gunning home, 1st base cut (about 40 ft in front of plate)and went 3 to get forced runner at 3rd (and almost runner going to 2 as he froze on the liner).....run scored as guy on 3rd read it as it would not be a catch and broke on the hit. Had he froze at 3rd he likely would have been out on the force.

The outfielder had to decide where he was going well before the catch/throw so he could be on line with his throw to come up gunning in an quick fashion.

This is the way it should work.

Out of curiousity, who's the pitcher backing up, Home or third?

Rz, if the C is yelling 4, it would behoove the P to back him up. The C may forgive an OF if it's loud during the game and the OF didn't hear it right, but the P should be close enough to hear and has no excuse.

I don't know where the P was on Harv's play, but it seems like the C yelled 4 and the OF delivered. When it was apparent that a cut was needed, it was made successfully...good play in my book regardless of what the infielders were yelling.

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Honestly Mike F...on that particular day your yellow hat had no slimming effect at all.

If you want a yellow hat that really appears to have you shedding pounds try this one. It's stealth technology will make any of your pounds hard to detect at all!







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The pitcher makes the decision as to where he goes. The situation nearly always dictates what the pitcher does. If it is a play that could go to 3B or HP he goes between and reads the play and moves accordingly. Usually if the ball is hit to RF the pitcher will most always back up the plate. What is often screwed up is the left fielder forgetting to back up 3B when he has time to get there.

PG,

I think you and I use the terms the same, and Mike F has a different usage, if you look back.

You and I use the terms "cutoff man" or "relay man" interchangeably. And whether it's a double cut situation or not doesn't affect that.

Mike is saying he calls the guy the "cutoff man" throws to the "relay man." I'm saying, he's the only person I've ever heard to use the term "relay man" to refer to the ultimate destination of the cutoff man's throw.

Curious how you gentlemen view this variation.

Runner on third, less than two outs. I have seen this with balls hit to both CF and RF. Medium depth flyout, outfielder has strong arm, not a problem getting the ball home on the fly. After catch, throw was made immediately to home, may or may not have been cuttable, but no other runners on base to advance. Throws were good, to the catcher on fly or appropriate one bounce. Runner starts but stops when sees good throw. I still heard coaches hollering hit the cut. Is that really in play in this situation? If, as stated above, the purpose is to keep runner(s) from advancing, that was accomplished. In the case of an offline throw, it would seem to me the runner would score most times whether the cut man was there or not.

Midlo,

I guess we must have read what "Mike" said differently.

baseball17,

Truth is the cutoff man in that situation is there to cut any ball that is thrown too wide. If it too wide there's usually no play at the plate. Guess it depends on which level of play we talk about, but at the highest levels there is basically no chance at the plate (on the play you described) if the ball is cut.

That doesn't mean the throw should miss the cutoff man as he should be lined up. It's just that the throw pretty much needs to go through in order to throw out the runner. More important than missing the cutoff man is missing the catcher!

Now if the runner stops the cutoff man becomes very important, it could create a cut 3. So even in this situation you have given the cutoff man could become important.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Mike is saying he calls the guy the "cutoff man" throws to the "relay man." I'm saying, he's the only person I've ever heard to use the term "relay man" to refer to the ultimate destination of the cutoff man's throw.

Midlo, do you think I meant that the outfielder throws to the SS who then throws home and the catcher is the relay man? If so my apologies for being unclear.

Maybe this example will clear it up. Runners on 1st and 2nd...

1. Batter singles to left (ground ball between 3B & SS) and left fielder gets the ball. He is charging and firing home in hopes of stopping the run from scoring. The 3B slides into position in the infield and becomes the "cutoff man". The LF is throwing the ball to home but at a height that the cutoff man can cut it off if appropriate.

...or...

2. Batter smokes the ball to the LC gap and one hops the fence. LF runs to field the ball putting his back to the runners. When he gets the ball, he is only concerned about throwing it to his "relay man" the SS who has positioned himself in the outfield.

The distiction is that in scenario #1, the OF is throwing to the base (not to the cutoff man) with the possibility of the cutoff man intervening (it's the OF's responsibility to make the trajectory of his throw "cuttable"). In scenario #2, he is throwing to a player who is going to relay the ball to the base (could be any base).

Does that make more sense?

Yes, and sorry, I did misunderstand you before.

Actually after reading through the posts again, I have no idea why I mentioned No Doubles defense in that one post. That really didn't have much at all to do with this discussion. Truth is a "relay man" more often happens when there is a "sure double".

Sorry if that confused anyone.

The first time I saw this thread it was in the Fielding & Defense Forum. Now it's also in the General Forum. I guess it won't be long now until it's a Golden Thread!

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I'll nominate you and your thread for a Nobel Peace Prize!




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