Hitting myths........

Only possible for Manny

Or just a bunt

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=hXrudbegAJI&feature=related

In wood, the most important part is adjustment so you can get it on the sweet spot, since its so small. How you get there can take many roads.

what do you think the pithc was? curve , slider, or cant tell?

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Originally posted by LAball:
what do you think the pithc was? curve , slider, or cant tell?

It was a 75mph lefty curve from Sean Marshall

In Manny's case, he was out in front on an off speed pitch and was able to hold his stretch until it was time to swing. This kind of body movement can only work on relatively slow pitches. Strength is what allowed him to hit this pitch out of the ball park though.

so blue...

would you teach that actual swing of Manny's to a player age 8-18... the whole torso parallel to the ground at impact, power V pointing down to the dirt in front of home plate?

(and I can't view the Wagner, Lou videos)

or would you just say that one of the best hitters of this era did what he could (adjustments) to get the most out of that actual swing/pitch... even though he was fooled?....

what percent of even major leaguers could do that exact swing and hit a HR?

Power- when you said "stretch," could you of used the word "torque" and your same statement been true?
if so, i agree with you... IMO he stored about as much energy as he could in his body and held it for as long as possible waiting for that offspeed pitch to get to him, so he could "release" it....

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Power- when you said "stretch," could you of used the word "torque" and your same statement been true?
if so, i agree with you... IMO he stored about as much energy as he could in his body and held it for as long as possible waiting for that offspeed pitch to get to him, so he could "release" it....

Yes! Torque between upper and lower body. No way a linear hitter could have made this swing. There has to still be weight on the back leg to "hold" this stretch.

What is shown in the pics---I ask you how many teen agers on varsity can do what those pics show?

I think the rotational mechanics allowed Manny to adjust the bat to hit the very small sweet spot on the wood bat. Power is needed if you miss the sweet spot, which would be ofthen in the MLB due to wood bats. But as noted by the bunt home run, the bat can provide a lot of power if the sweet spot is used.

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Originally posted by BlueDog:

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This kind of body movement can only work on relatively slow pitches. Strength is what allowed him to hit this pitch out of the ball park though.

I believe you're wrong......

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There has to still be weight on the back leg to "hold" this stretch.

Again, I believe you got it wrong......

Surely you don't think he could have hit that pitch out of the ball park if he started his swing with his back foot off the ground? Also, you can't believe he could have gotten his body in this position on a 90+ fastball. Do you?

I've seen home runs hit with the back foot in the air.

http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/media/player/mp_tpl.j...mv&type=v_free&_mp=1

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
I've seen home runs hit with the back foot in the air.

http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/media/player/mp_tpl.j...mv&type=v_free&_mp=1

Linear swing

BlueDog- Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? You do the same thing. So do most people on here who espouse their own beliefs.

I get a kick out of all these people who say they are linear guys or rotational guys or stretch and fire guys (I like that thought btw). The reality is that good hitters use all of the above. You have to get a load or stretch. You have to get your weight through literally. You have to rotate with your core.

You can pick a good hitter and shape him any way you want because you are looking for what you want to look for- period. How about throwing in timing and vision (sports vision). How do those work together in your mind. You can have the sweetest swing in the world but if your eyes and brain don't correlate your timing, you're not going to be successful.

Let's throw in the mental aspect. Are they going up with a confident ability to hit. The best ones do. How do you teach that? Are they sitting on a pitch or zone and eliminating the rest? Up until two strikes, the best ones do. Now, throw in pure athleticism. That's really what M. Ramirez has. The guy is a freak- period!

Too much time is spent on the "major-league swing" on this site. Yes, it's very important. That said, there are lots of ways to get the job done with different swings. To argue that is ignorant and arrogant. I'd like to see more views on timing and vision and how it relates to the swing.

Blue Dog- No, I don't get it. I don't think you're correct. Ramirez stretched just fine. If I'm taking your position, he should have been on-time.

I think you have alot to offer but your condescending tone and socratic methods leave alot to be desired. Your posts are less of a debate and more of a lecture. Come down to "our level" for awhile and let's see if all of us can have a spirited debate where everybody can learn.

Finally, let's talk about how we apply all these great ideas to actually teaching players. Theories are great. That said, if you can't communicate them to people who actually play, they are useless.

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Originally posted by BlueDog:

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Also, you can't believe he could have gotten his body in this position on a 90+ fastball. Do you?

The same principles apply....

Those who believe as you do change the situation
to fit your belief system....

Bluedog,

I didn't change anything. I don't believe their would be time to change his posture this much on a 90+ fastball. It's my opinion. He stretched, he changed his posture and fired, I agree. He could have adjusted his hands to a fastball down there, but if he was that far out in front, he would have hit a ground ball. No chance to get his body down there to get it. Actually, it probably would have been a no swing.

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Blue Dog- No, I don't get it. I don't think you're correct. Ramirez stretched just fine. If I'm taking your position, he should have been on-time.

Very good point. It takes a special person to pull off a swing like this one. Lots of things had to change from his normal swing to make this work. Not many can do that, IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
I've seen home runs hit with the back foot in the air.

http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/media/player/mp_tpl.j...mv&type=v_free&_mp=1

Quincy,

I didn't say you couldn't hit a home run with your back foot in the air. What I said was that he couldn't start his swing with his foot in the air and hit the ball out of the ball park.

I think it's about creating the stretch during the forward stride, then firing in proper sequence.

Manny got the sequence right. That allowed him to generate power with what looked to be unconventional. But, if viewed from a sequential perspective, he made it look easy. His weight shift timing may have been off a little (maybe not). But, more importantly, it was still done during the proper sequence...so, he was able to continue without adverse effect.

It didn't matter where the ball was. He got the sequence right.

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Originally posted by BlueDog:

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It didn't matter where the ball was. He got the sequence right.

Perfectly explained, Wayback....Thank you...

Powertoallfields talks about strength as to the why Manny did what he did on that swing....I say, no way...All MLB hitters are strong....Many are stronger than Manny....And, many of them could have hit that pitch the same as Manny did.....Heck, they have done it....

As Wayback explained, Manny got the sequence right....

And, the sequence is alot more than just from load to ball contact...It begins before the load....

Give me a break! There is no resemblance in the two swings you just showed and Manny's. Both of these swings are made BEHIND the front leg! When you have LEVERAGE in the swing, you don't need as much strength.

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Originally posted by wayback:
I think it's about creating the stretch during the forward stride, then firing in proper sequence.

Manny got the sequence right. That allowed him to generate power with what looked to be unconventional. But, if viewed from a sequential perspective, he made it look easy. His weight shift timing may have been off a little (maybe not). But, more importantly, it was still done during the proper sequence...so, he was able to continue without adverse effect.

It didn't matter where the ball was. He got the sequence right.

I have no arguement that Manny got the sequence right, but if you think this wasn't unconventional...WOW! Weight shifted to the outside of his front foot, back foot almost flat on the ground without turning, hips stayed almost square to the plate, upper body was almost 90 degrees to the ground, his hands almost got to his knees. Hell, he even stopped his rotation into foot plant that Bluedog talks so much about. Exceptional athlete making exceptional adjustments.

Don't get too hung up in the contortions while the ball is in flight.

The key here is that Manny stretched intitially developing energy to be exerted downward to the ball.

His downward swing developed enough bat speed to get a good result at contact.

The rest of the dance could be eliminated as long as the downward path to the ball is free flowing.

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Originally posted by ncball:
your condescending tone and socratic methods leave alot to be desired. Your posts are less of a debate and more of a lecture.

I think he is just trying to communicate, and does a fine job. From the small number of posts I have read from Blue, when his view is different from another viewer, Blue mearly states, I disagree or I think you are wrong. I dont hear him call other people names, or say they are ridiculous, or ignorant, confused, they know nothing. I have been called all theses things at BBF and it frequently happens to other people at BBF 101 hitting. This is one of the reasons I came to HSB. If you disagree, thats fine, but to say one is ignorant is a lack of politeness and total arragance, cuz no one knows that answer..... yet. Go BlueDog(ers)

I dont beleive in the strecth theory. I beleieve in seting the joint at optimal range of motion for maximal force. Example. Standing and doing a bicep curl. When the elbow is straight, you can produce minimal force for flexing the elbow. But if you lean your body forward, the elbow now starts at flexed position and can produce more force in this flexed position. The leading of the hips before the upper torso is setting the Lumber to rotate in a stronger range of motion, and no rubber band stretch and release occurs here.

I do see rubberband stretch and release in infield throws, where the **** the elbow and throw sidearm, thats strecth and fire.

my 2 cents.

The bicep curl is not a good example. It is a lift rather than a hurl.

The bat is not lifted into the swing, but hurled in a downward, circular motion to contact.

You may believe in stretch in the load that exerts force through muscle contraction in the downward swing.

Can someone explain what you mean by "the stretch"

The stretch in baseball swing is the Lead rotation of the hips before the shoulders. People believe this non-alingment store potential energy due to the stretch in the core (abdominal) muscles.

I (and maybe only I) dont believe there is a stretch during non alingment, but an improved alingment of the Upper torso and hip to increase recruitment of abdominal muscles.

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Originally posted by BlueDog:

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Both of these swings are made BEHIND the front leg!

Behind the front leg???...That's meaningless to me...Are you saying Manny's front leg isn't straightening after launch?

No! What I'm saying is, that his weight has already rolled to the ouside of his front foot well before contact. For proper leverage the weight should be on the inside of the foot. I won't say he has no leverage because his spikes will provide some and he does still have some weight on his back leg.

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Originally posted by BlueDog:

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Hell, he even stopped his rotation into foot plant that Bluedog talks so much about.

Manny delayed his rear hip rotation with hip slide (what Coaches would say is a fault)....But the front hip rotation is there, plain as day....The front hip does not stop opening, creating stretch the whole time....

The rear hip unloads after hip slide occurs and the front leg straightens.....I think this is what you refer to as hitting behind his front leg....Leverage....

It's all there...

Without a doubt his hip starts to rotate, but watch the direction of his front knee, it ends up pointing at first base on a pitch he pulled. I agree he is holding that stretch. He is doing it by keeping his front shoulder in and sitting while pulling his front butt cheek away from the ball (Elvis pelvis). He does get his front leg straight and that is what is pushing his butt cheek back. It is one way to create stretch, some golfers do it that way too. If he would have made a mechanically sound swing on this pitch, he would have hit it 30 feet foul. HE MADE IT WORK! His overall body strength made it into a Home Run.

We agree totally on the fact that stretch and fire made this swing possible, but strength made it a Home Run.

Stretch during the swing is a definite myth.

All stretch should be in the load.

The front foot landing does not create stretch. It creates a jerk forward in the swing motion.

Once the swing is initiated, it is a series of muscle contractions and then a ride to contact.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
All stretch should be in the load.

I'll agree to that . I like tipping for the load as apposed to pulling the hands back towards the catcher.

SoCal-
"stretch" is nothing more than another word for "torque." same thing, different word....

if you were looking down, from above the head, you could look at angle made from front shoulder and front hip... in other words, the widest angle you would get when front hips are "opening" and front shoulder still relatively "closed" would give you a degree of torque - or "stretch."

By MLB biomechanic people, I believe Griffey Jr. has had the most at about 30 degrees... of course bigger guys sometimes have less but is offset by having more muscle mass....

but the bottom line is if you don't use it properly, it can be all for nothing...

JMO

Diablo,
Thanks...I sent you a PM

Torque is an external force acting on the center.

Torque in the load is a myth.

Q-
then why do biomechanic researchers do studies for MLB on it?

quote:

Torque in the load is a myth.

OK, how about after the load? You know, maybe after foot plant and hip turn, but before shoulder turn.

Q-
I don't mean to disrespect whoever your physics or biophsysics professor was in college, but you are dillusional if you do not think there is any torque during a baseball swing...

go back and inform your professor that torque is nothing more than a measure of how much a force acting on an object causes that "object" to rotate.

The "object" will rotate around an axis, which is called the pivot point, which is the baseball player's spine.

The distance from the player's spine to the point where the force acts is called the moment arm.

Can you figure out what the "moment arm" is?

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and we never even got to talk about the torque in the players hands... (hint, hint - gets the batter's hands palm up/palm down)... unless you have another theory on how that happens....??

There is torque in the swing.

There is no torque in the load.

The weight and speed of the bat head exerts a torque on the body.

This is easily proven.

If a batter 'half swings' his body continues into the swing because the torque is being exerted by the bat head turning the body.

So...if I bash someone in the head with a bat...I can say, "It wasn't me! The bat did it all by itself!"?

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This is easily proven.

If a batter 'half swings' his body continues into the swing because the torque is being exerted by the bat head turning the body.

Funny thing is that if I do it without a bat...my upper body still rotates.