Holding back kid for sake of hs baseball

IMO, just plain wrong it that is the only reason!

Very uninformed parents !!!


In some states he may run out of eligibility when he turns 19

thecrow,

Welcome to the HSBW!

I just have one question, is there more to the story then what you've presented here?

No, the kid does not warrant staying back another year. Plus, how many kids stay back that late in school. Usually it's in the earlier years when it's an academic or maturity issue.

Their younger son is a grade or two behind, too.

What's the rule in Cal?

TROLL ????????????

What does troll mean?

TR is correct the guy would be ineligible after his jr yr

I don't know which state the player lives in, but schools (not families) hold back a student for academic purposes only and in most cases only one year then they are placed in a special program for LD. No school holds a child back for sports. It may be a different reason than the one you are being led to beleive.

I am not sure I beleive this is a legit scenerio.

In Texas, the UIL is the governing body of high school athletics. There are rules that prohibit a child participating past a certain age limit.
Their rule states "are less than 19 years old on September 1 preceding the contest or have been granted eligibility based on a disability that delayed their education by at least one year".

So, as long as you don't turn 19 before Sept. 1 you are ok to play.

I concur with TPM. It would be highly unusual for a child to be retained twice. Doc's question is legit, there must be more to it. NCLB (No Child...) counts kids retained against a schools Adequate Yearly Progress. No school admin in their right mind would allow that. Parents wanting to get their kid an edge in HS baseball would want to get him exposed to same ASAP, not delay the process.

.
Have no relationship to the poster or his scenerio...

It has been done in CA.

44
.

Priorities Priorities Priorities. You go to high school for academics. Oh sorry old fashioned idea. Question Is his baseball ability lacking? what makes the parents think that holding him back a year would dramatically change his ability.

TPM,

quote:

I don't know which state the player lives in, but schools (not families) hold back a student for academic purposes only and in most cases only one year then they are placed in a special program for LD. No school holds a child back for sports. It may be a different reason than the one you are being led to beleive.

First of all, I do not agree with this practice. However a friends son, who is a baseball player, had a 90 average in 8th grade last year and was held back by the parents to repeat 8th grade this year for him to get bigger and stronger before high school. The school tried to fight it so he went to a private school this year.

TPM, I do not want to argue with you, but please give out correct info. If you are not sure do not give out info as fact.

Now you may disagree with holding a player back because of baseball. If that is the case I do agree with you. I personally do not feel 19 year olds should be allowed to play high school sports. If they turn 19 during their senior year they cannot play at all. Kids should be graduating at 18 and there is not supposed to be a "redshirt" year in high school. But there is one if the child is held back a year. Just having a 19 compete against a 14-16 yo is unfair.

I've heard of parents waiting another year to start a child in school but never holding one back after first grade. I'd like to know how the school allows it? There has to be more to it than baseball.
My son missed the cut-off by 2 days and had to go through another year of pre-school. He is much better off academically and athletically but this was not our choice. It just worked out that way. The school wouldn't let him in even after we had him tested. I couldn't imagine holding him back for sports!

quote:

TPM, I do not want to argue with you, but please give out correct info. If you are not sure do not give out info as fact.

Not sure what you're referring to here FBG, and I can't see anything in TMP's post that can be misconstrued. I think she made a very good point that schools will not participate willingly in this unless absolutely necessary, and very rarely at that. In the case you've mentioned, the student was dis-enrolled (and the parents likely paid big out of pocket expenses) to get their way.

quote:

Originally posted by Florida Baseball Guy:
TPM,

quote:

I don't know which state the player lives in, but schools (not families) hold back a student for academic purposes only and in most cases only one year then they are placed in a special program for LD. No school holds a child back for sports. It may be a different reason than the one you are being led to beleive.

TPM, I do not want to argue with you, but please give out correct info. If you are not sure do not give out info as fact.

Bob,
I taught school for many years, 16 total between public and private in NJ and here in FL. If a student needed to be left back for the purposes you suggest, it is not allowable unless the student doesn't pass (and then you can attend summer school for passing). It happens often when children have late birthdays, parents want them to mature somewhere along the line before they enter HS.
We were on the other end as mine missed the cutoff by 21 days, and in the long run being older in his grade was positive.

If you read my post I said schools, not families. Your example shows that the public school was not in favor, so the parents took their son to a private school. Private schools can do as they wish, and many times it is because the parents want it and are willing to pay. I know that because I taught in a private school and was the recipient of such students so I understand. I am not saying that is a good or bad thing but here in Florida and the rest of the country, with NCLB public schools will not allow a child to repeat more than once. So please do not start again, that I don't know what I am talking about.

The person posting did not state that they attended a public or private school. Public schools do not allow such practice, private schools many times, as I said, will try to accomodate parents. Most of my students were smart, just very immature both physically and mentally for their age.

But this was not about that, it was holding back 2 years for the sake of baseball, which IMO, is messed up.

quote:

by spzzl: It would be highly unusual for a child to be retained twice. Doc's question is legit

it happens all the time - by parents

around here they're referred to as Massillon freshmen and it's usually for football but can be for other sports as well ... however mostly the parents are familiar with Fed (National Federation of High Schools) rules/regulations and normally wouldn't make a boo-boo call that would cause ineligibility before graduation ... but it sometimes does happen by over-anxious ill informed parents

we've had several boo-boo cases in the courts that left parents out to out-smart the system very disappointed



ps: check the history of some 21 yr old college sophs who were draft eligible and you'll see how it works

If the parents are holding their son back for baseball reasons SHAME ON THEM.

quote:

by gimages: If the parents are holding their son back for baseball reasons SHAME ON THEM.

Bee> noted above: "check the history of some 21 yr old college sophs who were draft eligible and you'll see how it works"

ie - note their signing bonu$e$

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:

quote:

by gimages: If the parents are holding their son back for baseball reasons SHAME ON THEM.

Bee> noted above: "check the history of some 21 yr old college sophs who were draft eligible and you'll see how it works"

ie - note their signing bonu$e$

I am not so sure I understand this, how would a parent know at 16 that there child 21 year old might get a significant signing bonus or even be drafted? If they are doing it thinking $$$$, an even bigger shame on them.

There are very very few who get drafted in their sophomore college years at 21, and when they do often there have been special circumstances, a very talented player who began college early (as in the example of Robert Stock). In this case it was the opposite. Making those desicions late in one's HS career is understandable.


JMO.

I was talking to the father of an 8th grader last week at one of our winter ball games. He stated he kept his son back specifically to be bigger, stronger, older for baseball. The public school system would not allow it so the parents found a private school, gave the baseball reason, and the school ok'd it. This student is an average student with no learning disabilities. Parent was very upfront about his reasons and apparently did not feel anything was wrong with this.

I don't understand all the specifics about how it works, but in Canada we know of players who elected to take an extra year (year 13) of high school for what I'm pretty sure are baseball reasons.

Also there are prep schools that can give a kid an extra year of high school. I actually know of one kid that went to prep school for baseball reasons.

I'm not sure why anyone would want to do this in 8th grade however.

Note: In the past couple years there have been a few cases of players actually graduating from high school early for a combination of baseball and academic reasons.

Not sure what to think of all this stuff. If it's legal, guess it's OK?

Cabb,
That's the point, it is not allowed in the public school.

I can understand those reasons, one time, there is nothing wrong with that. But if you read the original post, it had been done twice.

That's totally different, IMO.

PG,
You posted while I was posting. The decisions you mentioned are usually made while the player is in HS, but this seemed to be a decision made earlier by the family.

And if so, what's the purpose? If the player isn't ready physically or needs maturing, there's JUCO. Was the decision made to dominate in HS? What would the reason be for?

Just not enough info but I guess often times the lack of info makes for these discussions.

It depends on when he was held back, was he held back before 1st grad and again the 8th grade.

Either way if it is just for athletics, it is bad, but he will not be able to play high school when he is 19 in Calif.

Others that were indicated were also held out after 8th grade were also young for their age. Some guys are not 18 when they go into college.

My son was so looking forward to High School with all his buddies. It has been a good transition to a new school but most importantly he is with kids his age. They have the same level of immaturity and outside interest.

This Poor Kid in the original post will not have any of it if held back, or transfered to a private school. I hope the parents are thwarted. How selfish.

Private schools will do anything if the parents have deep enough pockets. (at least around here.)

I am awaiting a response from justbaseball on this, maybe he knows the situation. He's the norcal expert.

Let's assume the orginal post is legit. A 16yo 8th grader is absurd. But at least he can drive the middle school team bus. The player would be twenty in high school. Most states do not allow students to participate in sports past nineteen.

Many of the privates in our area who excel in sports make kids coming out of public school stay back a year. They call it academic transition. I call it redshirting.

I know someone who held his son back a year and then wouldn't let him play basketball to focus on working out for baseball. I think the kid is a better basketball player. Regardless, kids should be able to decide what they want their fun to be in high school. Sports is supposed to be fun isn't it? Who says a high school freshman (or earlier)is guaranteed a college roster spot? Enjoy high school.

My son has a late spring birthday. If I felt staying back would be a benefit for college ball I would consider having him PG a year on the back end, not repeat a year on the front end. My daughter has a late summer birthday. It didn't hurt her softball chances.

quote:

They have the same level of immaturity

LOL!

quote:

by TPM: I am not so sure I understand this, how would a parent know at 16 that there child 21 year old might get a significant signing bonus or even be drafted?

simple ...

1) if - his parents see themselves as informed

2) if - in Jr HS he seems to be an athletic stud

2B) if - somehow they figure out a 19 yr old hs sr has adavntage over a 17 yr old hs sr

3) if - he is getting early college & pro interest

4) if - they don't get the pro offer they need to blow off college out of hs ...
would they prefer the next opportunity to negotiate to be after his soph or after his jr yr of college ...

soph of course!

if no go they still have Jr & Sr yrs as well

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:

quote:

by TPM: I am not so sure I understand this, how would a parent know at 16 that there child 21 year old might get a significant signing bonus or even be drafted?

simple ...

1) if - his parents see themselves as informed

2) if - in Jr HS he seems to be an athletic stud

3) if - he is getting early college & pro interest

4) if - they don't get the pro offer they need to blow off college out of hs ...
would they prefer the next opportunity to negotiate to be after his soph or be after his jr yr of college ...

soph of course!

if no go they still have Jr & Sr yrs as well

Say that again, am I missing something?
So teh parents have planned all along that if they play their cards right their son will be one or two years older out of HS and if they don't like the pro offer (how do they know he will even get one) then if he goes to college he can be drafted at 21 (again how do they know son will even get that far).

Seems like a whole lot of life planning going on here that might not work out. That's sad.

Maybe parents who do this think that their son, being older in HS will be so dominate that they will be a top prospect?

Boy are they gonna be surprised when eventually everyone catches up to him.

JMO

Things that kid can tell his baseball coach his senior year:
1. coach I'll be late for practice tomorrow, I gotta vote.
2. Coach, I'll be late for practice tomorrow, I gotta sign up for the draft.
3. Coach, I'll be late for practice tomorrow, the kids I started school with are having a reunion and I want to see them all again.
4. Coach, I'll be late for practice again, AARP is having a reception over at the senior center and I'd like to attend.
5. Coach, I noticed you been in the mens room as many times as I was the last doubleheader... are you seeing someone for your prostate? I go to Dr. Doe....

quote:

This is very different from my experience starting school at 5 y/o and graduating at 16 y/o. But it is obvious that K thru 12 baby-sitting requires degrees and credentials to produce useful idiots for the Demoncrats.

It's also obvious that our public school system has been of great benefit to a few brilliant depublicans such as yourself.

I've seen it. Parents held their kids out expressly for the purpose of getting them an advantage in baseball. A couple of them were really, really horrible. Of the 8 kids I know were held back, only two had skills. I believe one of the two actually regressed. I don't think that would have happened if he had stayed with his class. My eldest is a 15 year old sophomore. He does not turn 16 until he is a junior.

I am not surprised at all. I also look for it to become more commonplace if it is determined to provide an advantage to the high school athlete. All you have to do is look the importance we put on athletics in our society and how proactive parents have become in their child’s athletics and it should come as no surprise.

1. Athletics are a very important part of today’s society. Millions and millions of dollars are given to players who do nothing for society other than perform an athletic feat.

2. Parents see their children as heirs to this spotlight if they can just provide that extra opportunity and allow that undeveloped talent to come out. Parents spend thousands and make great sacrifices attempting to accomplish this.

3. This “do what it takes” approach starts at a very early age. "T" ball and earlier! Parents devise “ways” to get the upper hand. Changing schools, buying expensive bats, gloves, personalized trainers, sending them to the most “prestigious showcases” and camps to playing on the most select teams. These are all common perceptions parents have as opening doors for their “rising superstars”. This may be fodder for another thread but parents also pay for a lot of “enhancement supplements” that are perfectly legal but do start an unhealthy mindset IMO.

4. What is the harm of holding back a student? Nothing in my opinion if you do it within the guidelines established by the school(s). I was always under the impression that students benefited academically if they were held back. If that is true, how can holding back a student for athletic reasons hurt the student athlete?

I think in Tennessee any student that is academically eligible for advancement to the next grade, but is held back at the parents request, is prohibited from participating in athletics their freshman year if that hold back takes place after the 7th grade. Any holdbacks prior to the 7th grade have no impact on high school athletics other than the possibility of the player getting too old to participate (which I think is 19). I know sports minded parents that not only juggle the academic advancement of their children for athletic reasons they go a step farther and attempt to conceive their children to be born with a good athletic birthday. ---- “Hey honey, want to make a pitcher?”
Fungo

I've seen it in RI, MA and CT.

The catch is they play in leagues other than the state Interscholastic League. The play in private or independent leagues. In fact, son was a 13 year-old eigth grader (starting P & 3B, no less) playing against 19-20 year old seniors (some of the schools were PG schools with 20 year-olds).

Let's not be naive. It happens from 9th grade into 10th grade, as well.

TR, in fact, I am familiar with players in your area (CT) who repeated ninth grade and eventually became 19 year old seniors (St Lukes).

LLorton,

Thanks for the stirring definition, and please forgive the inexcusable spelling error. Demoncrats…that’s funny. Hey, useful idiots like me help staff a number of excellent schools here. Peace to you as well my friend.

Nice post Fungo.
I can think of a couple things that I’d consider wrong with athletic retention. First and foremost, in a public school setting it costs thousands of dollars to educate a student every year. Why should we willfully allow such waste when schools are already squeezed for precious dollars? Now, if the parents want to pull out their checkbook and write the school district a nice note, then by all means.
Second, and this is important, you risk removing all academic rigor from the student’s curriculum, rigor that is needed to challenge and inspire students to become life-long learners. What good will it do this kid long-term by mastering 8th grade math?
As you note, there are lots of options available to parents who REALLY want to help their child succeed. I say let them be fully aware of the possible ramifications, and let them pay for it themselves.

What I found a lot of those parents did was home school them repeating the 8th grade. One or two of them did this when they were much younger. They had played in the minor leagues and lived 24/7 for baseball. I think they may have burned out their kids.

Holding a kid back for soley for baseball reasons is WRONG. SHAME ON THE PARENTS.

quote:

by TPM: Maybe parents who do this think that their son, being older in HS will be so dominate that they will be a top prospect?

Boy are they gonna be surprised when eventually everyone catches up to him.

"Maybe parents who do this see that their son is so dominant that he will be a top prospect?"

small sample off the top of my head - -

1 is now a MLB pitcher, pitched NLCS @ 24 yrs old

1 is now a MiLB catcher @ 26 yrs old

1 is now a UPS driver @ 27 yrs old

1 is now a HS FB coach @ 25 yrs old (chose hs teaching/coaching job over pro ball)