I was recently listening to a podcast where they were interviewing a D1 baseball coach regarding recruiting, and he indicated it was getting harder, then mentioned that he had had two home visits to 8th graders this year. There was no follow up question and the interview moved on. Am I missing something here? Are there situations where this would be allowed?
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I don't think so.
PGStaff posted:I don't think so.
+1
There are ways for coaches to talk to 8th graders. But it's not the image you may have of an 8th grader. It's a man child 8th grader already throwing mid to upper 80's.
i thought that ncaa rules apply once a kid gets to HS. My son was a batboy at the local D1, but had to stop once he hit HS. Same was true with individual batting lessons - which morphed into "clinics" once he hit HS.
I'm just imagining a HC stepping on one of the kids lego toys and trying to hold it in as he asks the kid "How would you like to play for State U?"
That's a stumper. I don't even think you can do that with international students. Would you mind posting a link to the podcast?
KilroyJ posted:I was recently listening to a podcast where they were interviewing a D1 baseball coach regarding recruiting, and he indicated it was getting harder, then mentioned that he had had two home visits to 8th graders this year. There was no follow up question and the interview moved on. Am I missing something here? Are there situations where this would be allowed?
By any chance was the coach's name Goff?
"Prospectivestudent-athlete. You become a “prospective student-athlete” when: • You start ninth-grade classes"
http://www.ncaapublications.co...ctdownloads/CBSA.pdf
I believe the NCAA has no jurisdiction until a kid becomes a "prospective student athlete." Therefore, there are no rules dictating coaches interactions with a player.
Goosegg posted:"Prospectivestudent-athlete. You become a “prospective student-athlete” when: • You start ninth-grade classes"
http://www.ncaapublications.co...ctdownloads/CBSA.pdf
I believe the NCAA has no jurisdiction until a kid becomes a "prospective student athlete." Therefore, there are no rules dictating coaches interactions with a player.
Does anyone else feel the desire to pull up the PG for toddlers fake post? Not seeming so fake anymore 
Visits to eighth graders mean zero - zero, zero, zero, zero.
Any parent of a college kid can comb through the family photo album and the answer emerges: does your college freshman look like the smiling eighth grader? Did your kid change between eighth grade and senior year in HS? Do you think a coach really believes he can tell which eighth graders will be the "ones?" What will be the eighth graders scores, grades and course difficulty (in other words, will the kid even be able to get over the admissions bar)? What will be the familiy's finances in four years? Heck, the coach can't hit with any degree of regularity when he recruits 11th graders, why would you think he can do it with younger kids? (Recruiting is after all a numbers game - the more comittments early the more crap was thrown at the wall; the more thrown at the wall, the more which will stick.)
Now, I can be convinced that coaches have found the magic fairy dust by offering eighth graders - IF YOU SHOW ME A SINGLE COLLEGE TEAM DOMINATED BY KIDS WHO GOT AN OFFER FROM THAT SCHOOL WHILE THE KIDS WERE PRE-HS. (To me, this is another example of some coaches trying to game the system, with no risk to the coach (who may not be there in six years), no risk to the college, and every risk on the kid - who gets worthless bragging rights with no corresponding reward potential.)
So, I am asking a question to those who are believing this: WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE OF A PROGRAM's SUCCESS USING THIS RECRUITING METHOD?
I don't necessarily disagree but I will add this.
I would bet the ranch that if I took the top 15 2021 players from the PG site, & you got to recruit however you wanted, my team would beat yours like a drum in 5-8 years.
"I would bet the ranch that if I took the top 15 2021 players from the PG site, & you got to recruit however you wanted, my team would beat yours like a drum in 5-8 years."
Not relevant.
What is relevant is how many eighth graders accept an offer and how how many enroll?
Always focusing on the outliers - in this case 15 players - obscures the fact that D1 programs bring in over 3,000 kids a year (and ignoring which of those 15 will go pro from HS). Yes, it was clear that Bryce Harper was special - and a good number of those special kids will go straight to proball; but we're discussing eighth grade college recruiting.
If you are arguing that PG ratings identify (on an ongoing basis) kids who it believes are the best, I accept that. If you are arguing that everyone of those 15 early bloomers remain uninjured, academically eligible, and continue to advance so that they remain in the top 15, and attend that eighth grade offering college, I say prove it.
(As an aside, and out of pure curiosity, what are the sizes of those 15? As a group bigger, equal to, or smaller, than the average eight grader?)
I'm simply arguing that on average, the best players at that age often translate into the best players at 18 years old.
Are there a ton of exceptions & late bloomers? No question. Is that current list going to even resemble the 2021 top list in 5 years? Not even close. Are these guys, on average, HUGE & early developers? Absolutely.
Would I take my chances that 8-10 out of the 15 listed will be legitimate Div 1 type players in 5 years? yes
Steve A. posted:I would bet the ranch that if I took the top 15 2021 players from the PG site, & you got to recruit however you wanted, my team would beat yours like a drum in 5-8 years.
That would be interesting. I'm not at all convinced that would be true. I think a majority of the Top 15 2021 position players will likely be Top 100 or Top 200 players in 5-7 years, but pitching is way to much of a roll of the dice to be certain one way or another.
A few of those Top 15 2021 players won't even be playing Baseball in 5-7 years. One or two might be in the NFL or NBA and one or two will be injured. Then there are those who have already topped out their development. There are a few Top 2021 players who aren't listed simply because they haven't played a PG event yet, too
It is an interesting proposal but I'm not convinced.
Time will tell, but there is some evidence that the top programs are the most involved. Early commitments is something fairly new. We saw it coming awhile back, but didn't expect it to include pre HS kids.
There are some 13-14 year olds that are no brainers. Though, those types usually end up being first round draft picks and don't help the college program they might have committed to. For the most part, it is not those types that commit early anyway.
No doubt, this can help colleges... I like the "throwing mud at the wall" theory. That is what it's all about. Very little risk for the college. And that mud that sticks can be a huge advantage. Not a ton of risk for the young kid either, but a lot more than the college. I just can't see any good reason for a pre HS player to commit to anything 5 years away that isn't even guaranteed. But if that is what they want to do, more power to them. They should just understand that the college coach is expecting them to be better than they are now. If he doesn't see what he wants things can get very difficult for the player. There are other things that can happen to change things, also.
So as the early commitment thing grows, so do the number of decommitments. Sometimes players decommit, but usually it is the college that initiates it.
Think I will try to find out more about home visits to 8th graders. Even if somehow legal, I can't see a lot of that going on. That is doing much more than throwing mud at the wall. That involves time and money.
Goosegg posted:"I would bet the ranch that if I took the top 15 2021 players from the PG site, & you got to recruit however you wanted, my team would beat yours like a drum in 5-8 years."
Not relevant.
What is relevant is how many eighth graders accept an offer and how how many enroll?
Always focusing on the outliers - in this case 15 players - obscures the fact that D1 programs bring in over 3,000 kids a year (and ignoring which of those 15 will go pro from HS). Yes, it was clear that Bryce Harper was special - and a good number of those special kids will go straight to proball; but we're discussing eighth grade college recruiting.
If you are arguing that PG ratings identify (on an ongoing basis) kids who it believes are the best, I accept that. If you are arguing that everyone of those 15 early bloomers remain uninjured, academically eligible, and continue to advance so that they remain in the top 15, and attend that eighth grade offering college, I say prove it.
(As an aside, and out of pure curiosity, what are the sizes of those 15? As a group bigger, equal to, or smaller, than the average eight grader?)
PG is listing the top 2021's right now. The number one guy is actually almost 14 years and 11 months old, 6'2, 195 #'s, and threw 87mph last October. He's committed already to Virginia
The number 10 guy is 14 years and 9 months old, 6'3, 170#'s and 84mph as of last September. He's committed to Arizona.
Now, will these guys still be studs, will they be uninjured, will they be grade eligible....who knows! But if they do progress it sounds like the Early bird got the worm on this one.
To add, according to the PG website here is your top 10 class of 2021 (8th graders)
#1 = Virginia
#2 = Mississippi state
#3 = Miami
#4 = NOT COMMITTED
#5 = Louisville
#6 = NOT COMMITTED
#7 = NOT COMMITTED
#8 = NOT COMMITTED
#9 = Miami
#10 = Arizona
By any chance was the OP listening to one of these coaches? Six out of Ten of these "8th" graders are already committed. Looks like coaches have found a loop hole. Talk to them before they are in high school all you would like.
Goosegg posted:Visits to eighth graders mean zero - zero, zero, zero, zero.
I agree with you in terms of 8th grade commits meaning zero, but we may be heading into new territory. If the kid waits until 10th or 11th grade to commit, does that visit play into his decision then? "The coach saw something in me when I was in 8th grade, and that means something to me."
So where does this stop? 6th Grade? DNA analysis of 1st Grade kids?
College recruiting, across the board in all sports is in need of redefining the rules. Colleges coaches should not be pursuing early teens. How can the kid know what he wants at fourteen years old? The coach can't guarantee he will still be coaching there.
This whole thing pissed me off when my daughter went through early recruiting. Recruiting fourteen year old softball players is not new. Girls physically mature sooner. It's not uncommon for a fourteen year old to be playing 18u Gold travel. My daughter was a late recruit. She didn't play 18uG until post freshman year and receive offers until that summer. Fortunately she knew what she wanted from college as a high school freshman.
Coaches should have to stay away completely until the summer after soph year of high school. Players should be allowed to sign NLI's in the fall of junior year.
If anyone enjoys listening to college baseball coaching podcasts, I would suggest "College Baseball Now". I would specifically suggest the episode from May 18. And if you're in a hurry you can fast-forward to the 17:10 mark
RJM posted:College recruiting, across the board in all sports is in need of redefining the rules. Colleges coaches should not be pursuing early teens. How can the kid know what he wants at fourteen years old? The coach can't guarantee he will still be coaching there.
This whole thing pissed me off when my daughter went through early recruiting. Recruiting fourteen year old softball players is not new. Girls physically mature sooner. It's not uncommon for a fourteen year old to be playing 18u Gold travel. My daughter was a late recruit. She didn't play 18uG until post freshman year and receive offers until that summer. Fortunately she knew what she wanted from college as a high school freshman.
Coaches should have to stay away completely until the summer after soph year of high school. Players should be allowed to sign NLI's in the fall of junior year.
I guess it depends on how the NCAA plans to address this early recruiting. I can't see a reasonable solution that doesn't massively affect some institution.
Let's just say for the sake of argument, you have an 8th grader who is offered prior to HS. What is the possible harm in responding with a "thanks so much, really appreciate the interest, very flattered but we are simply not prepared to allow "Johnny" to make a decision until after his Sophomore year."???
If he is really that kind of player, then surely the offer & others similar will still be in play if he improves. If he does not improve, if he had accepted the original offer it would likely not be the best place for him to play anyway. Where is the downside for the kid?
Steve A. posted:I don't necessarily disagree but I will add this.
I would bet the ranch that if I took the top 15 2021 players from the PG site, & you got to recruit however you wanted, my team would beat yours like a drum in 5-8 years.
How big is your Ranch?
10 acres
Steve A. posted:10 acres
any water on it (pond, stream, etc.)? I like to fish. 
Boat launch on a river! No joke! Come on. Bring 2 doz lg minnows & maybe some cut bait
Steve A. posted:Let's just say for the sake of argument, you have an 8th grader who is offered prior to HS. What is the possible harm in responding with a "thanks so much, really appreciate the interest, very flattered but we are simply not prepared to allow "Johnny" to make a decision until after his Sophomore year."???
If he is really that kind of player, then surely the offer & others similar will still be in play if he improves. If he does not improve, if he had accepted the original offer it would likely not be the best place for him to play anyway. Where is the downside for the kid?
I personally know three 8th Graders who have gotten offers and whose families are taking that exact approach.
If a little old nobody like me from Wisconsin knows three kids in that situation, I would imagine there are plenty more taking that approach.
It is true that a student becomes a "prospective student-athlete" when they start 9th grade.
However, the rule for off-campus recruiting contacts (if indeed this D1 coach was making an in-home visit) is that "...they shall not be made with an INDIVIDUAL (or his or her relatives or legal guardians) before July 1 following the completion of his or her junior year in high school."
Individual refers to a broader category of students than just those who have started 9th grade.
Rick, I don't agree with your interpretation (though I wouldn't die on this hill).
You left out a key modifier in your quote:
"(1) off-campus recruiting contacts shall not be made with an individual (or his or her relatives or legal guardians) before September 1 at the beginning of his or her junior year in high school and that contacts that occur during a prospective student-athlete's junior year may occur only at the prospective student-athlete's educational institution or residence. . ."
The NCAA doesn't have any jurisdiction over a kid in nursery school or before; but if the word individual meant literally an individual, that would be the case as the only distinction made between kids is the term "prospective student athlete."
I read these rules as first telling me to whom the rules apply; then telling schools, coaches, families, etc., what actions are allowed or proscribed to those effected. If it were otherwise, there is no purpose to using the term "prospective student athlete" because the rules would apply to everyone, everywhere, regardless of age, thereby rendering that term redundant and meaningless. (And the term "prospective student athlete" is a term clearly defined by the NCAA.)
See also, ("A contact is any face-to-face encounter between a prospect, or the prospect’s parent or legal guardian, and an institutional staff member or athletics representative during which any dialogue occurs."); ("A prospective student-athlete is a student who has started classes for the ninth grade or above, including students in prep schools and junior colleges, and individuals who have of cially withdrawn from four- year schools. Any student not yet in the ninth grade becomes a prospect if an institution provides him or her with any nancial aid and/or bene ts that are not generally provided to prospective students.)" [In the last quoted passage, there are some narrow circumstances where a pre HS kid becomes a prospective student athlete. By specifically noting this exception, it is implied that other pre HS kids are not yet considered prospects, and therefore, not subject to the rules - yet.)
MidAtlanticDad posted:Goosegg posted:Visits to eighth graders mean zero - zero, zero, zero, zero.
I agree with you in terms of 8th grade commits meaning zero, but we may be heading into new territory. If the kid waits until 10th or 11th grade to commit, does that visit play into his decision then? "The coach saw something in me when I was in 8th grade, and that means something to me."
Vanderbilt, Virginia, Miss State, USC, LSU (and many more) say sorry, that class is already full.
If I left my size 8 1/2 footprints on your alma mater, I apologize in advance.
Go44dad posted:MidAtlanticDad posted:Goosegg posted:Visits to eighth graders mean zero - zero, zero, zero, zero.
I agree with you in terms of 8th grade commits meaning zero, but we may be heading into new territory. If the kid waits until 10th or 11th grade to commit, does that visit play into his decision then? "The coach saw something in me when I was in 8th grade, and that means something to me."
Vanderbilt, Virginia, Miss State, USC, LSU (and many more) say sorry, that class is already full.
If I left my size 8 1/2 footprints on your alma mater, I apologize in advance.
Go44dad, now that's not entirely accurate. I just checked PG and in the last 50 days D1's have "committed" 96 2017's.
If I were a betting woman I would bet there was more money given out to the 48 2019-2021's who committed in the last 50 days than the 96 2017's combined.
In my opinion if the kid isn't approached by his Junior year by multiple D1's, it's just time to aim lower, if you actually want to play. I don't hold out much hope for those 96 2017's seeing ANY field time next year.
Caco
Whoa Nellie! Do you know each of those 96 2017s who "just" committed? Maybe just maybe one or two or some of them are late bloomers. Or someone who did not start the process in 8th grade like this thread contemplates. Some may be add ons in the event some of the class is lost to the draft, but just because they are what you might consider "late" does not mean they are automatically never going to see the field!
I understand that if a kid has been showcasing for years and has no interest by the time junior year rolls around, it might be time to "aim lower" as you say (I disagree with that characterization as well, maybe fish in a different pond perhaps but not necessarily LOWER).
But some kids aren't throwing 90 until junior or senior year. Or haven't fully grown or as we hear a lot on this site, do not yet have anything worth showcasing. So when they do have something worth seeing as a junior or a senior, GOOD FOR THEM for getting a D1 commitment! Or also there is the possibility that they needed a higher GPA or test score, and had to work until senior year to get that. Or maybe they were injured as a sophomore or junior...There are a number of reasons and explanations and a so called "late" commitment does not necessarily equal zero playing time.
CaCO3Girl posted:Go44dad posted:MidAtlanticDad posted:Goosegg posted:Visits to eighth graders mean zero - zero, zero, zero, zero.
I agree with you in terms of 8th grade commits meaning zero, but we may be heading into new territory. If the kid waits until 10th or 11th grade to commit, does that visit play into his decision then? "The coach saw something in me when I was in 8th grade, and that means something to me."
Vanderbilt, Virginia, Miss State, USC, LSU (and many more) say sorry, that class is already full.
If I left my size 8 1/2 footprints on your alma mater, I apologize in advance.
Go44dad, now that's not entirely accurate. I just checked PG and in the last 50 days D1's have "committed" 96 2017's.
If I were a betting woman I would bet there was more money given out to the 48 2019-2021's who committed in the last 50 days than the 96 2017's combined.
In my opinion if the kid isn't approached by his Junior year by multiple D1's, it's just time to aim lower, if you actually want to play. I don't hold out much hope for those 96 2017's seeing ANY field time next year.
If the board was restricted to entirely accurate posts, wouldn't be that many posts.
My general point was top D1 schools have most of their 2018 recruit committed and monies spent at this time. At to further conjecture with limited scholarships, they will be spread out over the four year class, so 3 max 4 full scholarships to divy up for one grad class?
"Alex, Committing before shaving for $500, please!"
Go44dad posted:CaCO3Girl posted:Go44dad posted:MidAtlanticDad posted:Goosegg posted:Visits to eighth graders mean zero - zero, zero, zero, zero.
I agree with you in terms of 8th grade commits meaning zero, but we may be heading into new territory. If the kid waits until 10th or 11th grade to commit, does that visit play into his decision then? "The coach saw something in me when I was in 8th grade, and that means something to me."
Vanderbilt, Virginia, Miss State, USC, LSU (and many more) say sorry, that class is already full.
If I left my size 8 1/2 footprints on your alma mater, I apologize in advance.
Go44dad, now that's not entirely accurate. I just checked PG and in the last 50 days D1's have "committed" 96 2017's.
If I were a betting woman I would bet there was more money given out to the 48 2019-2021's who committed in the last 50 days than the 96 2017's combined.
In my opinion if the kid isn't approached by his Junior year by multiple D1's, it's just time to aim lower, if you actually want to play. I don't hold out much hope for those 96 2017's seeing ANY field time next year.
If the board was restricted to entirely accurate posts, wouldn't be that many posts.
My general point was top D1 schools have most of their 2018 recruit committed and monies spent at this time. At to further conjecture with limited scholarships, they will be spread out over the four year class, so 3 max 4 full scholarships to divy up for one grad class?
"Alex, Committing before shaving for $500, please!"
I was actually agreeing with you Go44....96 in the last 50 days....meaning the last 2 months of their senior year and they just NOW commit? I'm thinking all most of them got out of this was a tweet that they are blessed to continue their journey with XYZ School. They don't even get to do the High School backdrop NLI signing day thing.
Go44dad posted:MidAtlanticDad posted:Goosegg posted:Visits to eighth graders mean zero - zero, zero, zero, zero.
I agree with you in terms of 8th grade commits meaning zero, but we may be heading into new territory. If the kid waits until 10th or 11th grade to commit, does that visit play into his decision then? "The coach saw something in me when I was in 8th grade, and that means something to me."
Vanderbilt, Virginia, Miss State, USC, LSU (and many more) say sorry, that class is already full.
If I left my size 8 1/2 footprints on your alma mater, I apologize in advance.
... unless the coach liked me more than one of those kids that he already committed to. (Not in every case, but we know it happens.)
The key here is "top D1's." Yolu will find several D1's with few commitments from the 2018 class. There are two reasons - 1) they recruit heavily from JC and 2) they wait until later and pick off many of the leftover top prospects who can now be swayed by a good offer from a mid-major/lower D1 vs. a low/walk on offer from a top D1.
There is another growing trend that will counteract the proliferation of early commits. Until very recently, recruiters had much more respect for baseball commitments than did their counterparts in football and basketball. In those sports, a commitment meant more of a mutual interest than anything solid. How many times have we seen a top football player committed to school X sitting at a table on signing day with three hats in front of him teasing the media and then announcing to a school other than the one he committed to? Or taking official visits to multiple schools after committing? In baseball, traditionally after committing, other schools took a hands-off approach. More and more you are seeing kids de-commit. It won't be long until schools begin ignoring tradition and actively recruiting committed kids.
The summer after my son's freshman year, we attended a prospect camp at a major D-1. The coach went off on other schools in the conference offering freshmen and said that this school doesn't do that, but may have to just to keep up. He was particularly disturbed by a conference rival committing a big lefty from his state who hadn't even started his freshman year of baseball. Fast forward a year and this school was up at the top of the list for the number of kids recruited following their freshman year.
P.S. That in-state lefty? Decommitted from his original school and committed to this school this past fall.
Caco -- also when you get to senior year you may find these things out, but many HS do a spring signing day. They may have a fall one too, but there are numerous schools that have only a spring signing day to allow ALL athletic recruits the chance to have their parents and coaches in a photo opp.
