Hot Stove League

I'll play...

I told my youngest that the W Sox just got worse today...because the Tigers got better.

The Marlins thought they were in good shape on pitching in '06 but many of their guys got hurt. They just re-stocked themselves - you never have enough. ptobably good for both team considering their respective situations.

Go to www.mlbtraderumors.com for lots of gossip. Great sight. I check it breakfast, lunch and dinner. Stuff shows up there before almost any other sight I look at.

This trade is so crazy to me! I never saw those two going to the same place ... two big names ... two studs! Tigers should pick up some more viewers this year as well! Should be fun to watch.

NC42Dad,

Yes, the sox just got worse! That is a great quote. Are the cubs making any moves during the off season?

I don't think anyone implied it was a Cubs/Sox issue. It's hard as a Sox fan to admit that we are definitely the worst team in the Division heading into next season. I think there needs to be a real hard look into what Kenny Williams is doing to our team. By this pace, Ozzie might be fired by May because this team will drive him crazy.

Rosy....the snow got my heart pumping. Just in time for tuition for the second semester.

It really seems on face value that the sox are falling behind their competitors in the al central, but I'm not so sure all will work out so well for everyone else. How many times have we seen teams go out and spend tons of money and not get results for it? Dontrelle Willis is not coming off a very good year at all. How much does he have in the tank? Word is that the Marlins insisted he be part of any trade involving Cabrerra.

Look at Cabrerra and you might get the idea he is trying to eat his way out of baseball. At his size (and getting bigger) you have to wonder just how effective he will be at 3b. I wouldn't make the trade giving up Fields for Cabrerra....MAYBE for a year or so Cabrerra will be more valuable, but I was really impressed with Fields. He is going to be a star if they let him play 3b instead of the OF.

On paper it looks like a slam dunk, but I'm not so sure how it will turn out. I predict a 3 team dogfight next year and it could be any of the 5 teams involved.

FBD, Yeah, I thought about you when the snow started piling up! Nice point about the college tuition.

I think the trade can eventually be great for both teams. Cabrera supposedly has already lost weight and put on some muscle, but being surrounded by Pudge, Sheffield, Ordonez and the rest of that murderers row should help to keep him in check. While Willis had a down year, I think being around that team with Leland at the helm, he will have a big bounce back year. They're just stacked now. No 3 team race this season. I think it's the Tigers winning the division with Cleveland 8 games back.

Please do not compare Josh Fields to Cabrera. Fields is a nice player but not even close to Cabrera in terms of their upside. Cabrera is reportedly going to be down around 20 pounds as well.

Here are the numbers and Fields is also a year older than Cabrera.
Cabrera-.320 Avg 34 HR 119 RBI
Fields-.244 Avg 23 HR 67 RBI

Picture this lineup:

1. Granderson CF
2. Renteria SS
3. Ordonez RF
4. Cabrera 3B/Possibly some 1B/DH with Inge rostered
5. Sheffield OF/DH
6. Rodriguez C
7. Polanco 2B
8. Guillen (OF/IF/Utility)
9. Inge???

Rotation:

1. Verlander
2. Willis
3. Bonderman
4. Rogers
5. Robertson/Maroth

Bullpen:
--Healthy Zumaya and Jones

Predicted order of finish:

1. Tigers
2. Indians
3. Twins
4. Royals
5. Sox

Also check out the fact that the ROYALS are signing free agents and we are picking up mediocre relievers and reserve outfielders.

Just an opinion but the W Sox don't have the horses in the minors that people want - at least not enough of them. Whose fault is that? Look at some of the picks they have made over the past half dozen years & see what they have to show for it. Very little. I agree, Josh Field is not even comparable to M. Cabrera, neither is Crede. What I don't seem to hear from K William/Guillen is 3 of our starting 5 had ERAs that will not cut it in the Central, or anywhere for that matter. Maybe Reinsdorf needs to better evaluate his employees who are responsible. JMHO of course.

I will have to watch more Cub's games this year I guess cause the W Sox are done before they start (even if they get a CF.) Do like the Marlins, clean house and go with youth.

quote:

Originally posted by FastballDad:
Rosy....the snow got my heart pumping. Just in time for tuition for the second semester.

I wouldn't make the trade giving up Fields for Cabrerra....MAYBE for a year or so Cabrerra will be more valuable, but I was really impressed with Fields.

FBD, Did you fall and hit your head in the snow? You must be kidding about not trading Fields for Cabrerra. Who do you like positioning your team for 2008 to win a WS, KW or Dave Dombrowski?

In regards to the minor league system...I don't know if he's playing pro ball or in college, but back in '04 K.W.'s son was selected in the draft out of high school. Interesting, because I heard that there was no way he was going to sign, and it was an ego thing for when he showed up at school for fall practices. But last year Ozzie's son was picked up in the draft...even more interesting than Williams' boy because he wasn't anything special at the d3 level.

I played d3 ball with a 7th round pick, so I'm not saying there aren't any good players in d3 because we all know that there are. I'm also not trying to bash these two guys. I'm merely asking a question about the quality of the team's selections.

Are they looking to keep their kids happy and making too many courtesy selections in the draft?

One of his sons is at Wichita St.

How about Center Field for the Sox?

CC

Very fair questions to bring up.

I realize it is not easy to develop young guys but why have we given up on Brian Anderson and then turn around and send our #4 prospect to AZ for a guy who hit .214?? Detroit goes into the year with a regular MLB everyday guy at every position and KW thinks he is going to get production out of a guy with those numbers???

It still amazes me no one is digging him on the pitching staff. I would take the Cub's staff hands down to the Sox.

On another note, the Sox are preety cheap spending money on the draft... look and see what NY, Boston, Detroit and some of the big boys have spent. Then they have prospects to deal for guys like Cabrera.

nc42dad...what are the spending figures for the respective minor league organizations. since you apparently looked it up, why not share the information to back up your claims? Thanks ahead of time for the info.

Baltimore Orioles $7,672,500
Washington Nationals $7,619,300
New York Yankees $7,432,500
Detroit Tigers $7,305,000
Tampa Bay Devil Rays $7,172,000
San Francisco Giants $7,027,000
Toronto Blue Jays $6,290,500
Texas Rangers $6,102,500
San Diego Padres $5,763,500
Kansas City Royals $5,618,400
Arizona Diamonbacks $4,946,000
Chicago Cubs $4,932,250
Cincinnati Reds $4,352,250
Pittsburgh Pirates $4,163,400
Atlanta Braves $4,047,950
Seattle Mariners $4,034,800
Oakland Athletics $3,944,900
St. Louis Cardinals $3,781,000
Boston Red Sox $3,505,500
Colorado Rockies $3,393,000
Los Angeles Dodgers $3,337,250
New York Mets $3,328,800
Philadelphia Phillies $3,312,000
Florida Marlins $3,228,750
Milwaukee Brewers $3,177,700
Chicago White Sox $2,444,550
Cleveland Indians $2,271,800
Minnesota Twins $1,837,000
Los Angeles Angels $1,291,600
Houston Astros $536,000

Rosy,

Given the postion the sox are in, I'd be waiting two or three years to make a big effort to contend. Yes, they may make a run with (or without Cabrerra) but they are better off keeping Fields who in my opinion will be better than cabrerra by the time the sox are ready to contend.

BTW, I didn't need to fall on my head to think goofy.....


I'll go with Dombrowski

quote:

Originally posted by nc42dad:
CC

On another note, the Sox are preety cheap spending money on the draft... look and see what NY, Boston, Detroit and some of the big boys have spent. Then they have prospects to deal for guys like Cabrera.

You make a great point, one which was discussed on ESPN2 on their winter meetings show. The reason that the Tigers could make this deal and that the Yanks or Bosox can be in position to make this type of trade is because they ignore the slotting recommendations put forth from the league office. They take the phone call from Bud, say they're sorry, but they will do what they have to to make their organizations strong. Both Maybin and Andrew Miller both got much more money that slot money and I say, more power to 'em. On the southside, there are players that won't even be discussed because of their agent. That is the way Bill Wirtz acted and look what happened to the Blackhawks. The Cubs have been signing draft choices for above slot money for a few years and it is starting to show results. Obviously, the kid Samarjia(sp)from ND comes to mind.Let enough teams get scared off by an agents demands and draft him in the 2nd or 3red round, or lower, and pay him 1st round money. It is done by the above mentioned elite teams each and every year.
Don't think that guys like the Yanks Chamberlain, Hughes, Ian Kennedy and on and on signed for slot money.

Gentleman,

The White Sox payroll was 4th in baseball, not just the American League, at 102,875,000. Detroit was 82,302,069. When you factor in the stats on the minor league expenditures, They still outspend Detroit by 15%. You can say they should allocate money in a different way, but they are not cheap.

To compare Reinsdorf and Williams to Wirtz and Pulford is ridiculous. The Sox are a solid franchise that is only a couple of years from a world championship. The old Wirtz took years breaking down a top franchise. The Hawks were a good franchise because of Jim Norris.

There are enough recent examples of low-funded organizations winning divisions, and doing well in the play-offs. Its not about the $s. If it was Oakland, Florida and Minnesota to name a few should NEVER be in the mix. And they are in the mix more consistently than our two teams.

bballdad,

Not sure where you got those numbers, but the Tiger's didn't stockpile a farm system by paying slot money, or by being afraid to deal with a Scott Boras client. BA is about to come out with their list of minor league rankings. I'm told the WS are ranked 29th. Just what I heard. IMO, if you toe the commissioners line about not signing drafted players for more than slot money, you're never going to build an elite farm system which can allow you to trade for a big name if it fits your needs.

Also, with many big contracts back loaded, what a team spends this year will not represent what they're on the hook for on those contracts down the road,ie the Cubs. As for my analogy using the Blackhawks it was not my intent to compare Wirtz with Chairman Reinsdorf, but there are similarities in how both despise certain agents and sacrificed many a player as a result. No owner likes Scott Boras, but he represents some of the very best talent out there, and to ignore those players because you won't deal with their agent is being penny wise and dollar foolish. JMO.

Itsrosy-
Great thread!
Being a W Sox fan for many, many years I do not like the direction we are headed. It appears we have given up on Anderson,Sweeney when they were going to be the heart of the team. They send McCarthy away because he opens his mouth about his desire to start versus relief and who did we get out of that? Dank's ERA was pretty pitiful. Rowand for Thome & now we want him back at $85 million? We have a bunch of old, over paid guys now that no one wants with the #29 ranked minor league system?? Maybe I am missing something but there just does not seem to be a "plan." Yes, I would agree that throwing $$$ at guys doesn't always create a winner either. Also, I would bet that the Marlins get back to the World Series before the Sox do. They've already made it twice in their short history & they've got a lot more talent in their minor league system than the Sox and they just loaded it more with the Tiger's trade. Time will tell.

From today's Chicago Suntimes:

Quote from Kenny Williams regarding Detroit's acquisitions of Willis and Cabrera:

''All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us,'' Williams insisted


HA HA HA!!! Maybe it's time to rename the ballpark again. How about Fantasy Land Park?????? On a honest note, can any Sox fan not say that this has gotten embarrasing?

There is a lot more that goes into a free agent signing than just money, and this is especially true of the higher echelon players.

The part that concerns me as a Sox fan, is that these upper echelon players don't want to come here. That says something about how the club is percieved within baseballs ranks.

Coach,

I just read that ridiculous comment from KW and I almost choked on my breakfast. Still cocky as ever. Oh, I see that Andruw Jones is now a Dodger for 2 years (sorry Boras) but for $36M! Now, would the Sox have spent $18M per to get the services of one Andruw Jones for 2 years? I think not.

As for my team, while no one expected them to do much at these meetings, a little action would be OK with me. Brian Roberts would be a great pickup, but I also think Mark DeRosa is one heck of a player. I'm sure there's a team out there that would agree. I guess Hendry is putting his eggs in the basket for the outfielder Fukudome.

I am a concerned WS fan, but how much of this is related to decicions to bring in people to win a championship? Yes, the cupboard is bare and we got beat out in a deal, lets see if the tigers can make it payoff.

rosy, I got the numbers off the internet. Google list of MLB payrolls. Why question my numbers and not nc42dad's numbers. Oh, he's agreeing with you.

I questioned the numbers because I didn't believe them. I stand corrected. However, I'll bet that if you examine where the dollars were spent for players in the draft, the elite teams will all have 1 or 2 players that they paid far in excess of slot money. The Tigers just wouldn't have ended up with such a stable of top prospects if they had toed the commisioners line. They supplied the Marlins with 4 pitchers that were the same 4 guys that the Marlins had asked for. Great scouting by the Marlins on that one.

The numbers I gave were the total bonuses paid out by each club for their first 10 rounders. Bonuses below round 10 usually aren't posted on Baseball America, although some are.

A team that picks #1 is going to pay a higher bonus slot number (if they follow the slots)than a team that picks #25. However, if you look at what the Tigers, Yankees and other's do, they are paying 1st/2nd round bonuses to guys they pick in lower rounds such as round 5 thru 10. It goes against the MLB slot figures. Cubs did it with Samarjia last year. The Sox and many other teams follow the slots and it might be a reason why the other's are gaining on them with "prospects." Look at Baseball America and it is pretty obvious who is willing to pay "over slot." Andrew Miller fell to the Tigers in the '06 draft because the teams picking above him did not want to pay him over the slot figure. All the agents know who these teams are.

Everyone knows that agents manipulate the draft and slot system in a way that benefits the top talent. It's a creative free enterprise-type approach to circumvent a non-competitive arrangement. You would think owners and GM's might understand it if not appreciate it. It's pretty funny to read the NY Mets GM complain about how "unfair" it is that his team sticks to the system and teams like the Tigers and others don't. What nonsense.
It's also refreshing to see Dave Dombrowski quietly go about building the future in Detroit while KW shoots his mouth off and does nothing.

Here is an example.

Tigers 5th rounder $748,000
Tigers 6th rounder $1.49 mil
Tigers 26th rounder $175,000

W Sox 5th rounder $127,000 slot
W Sox 6th rounder $100,000 max allowed $123,000
W Sox 23rd rounder $123,000 max allowed $123,000

NC,
Why is the tigers 26th rounder at $175K and you say the White Sox 23rd rounder is Max Allowed at $123K?

I'm so confussed!

BTW, wasn't that Tigers 5th rounder our own Casey Crosby?

Just read today that Crosby had Tommy John Surgery.

The Tigers paid OVER the Commisioner's "slot" which should have been $123,000. W Sox did not.

The Commisioner has to approve the contracts, which they always do, but if you go over "slot" he ain't gonna sign it until Aug 14 - one day before the deadline. That way, the agents/players can use it against the teams who only follow the slots. If the Commisioner let the guys sign over slot in June than agents/players will use that to negotiate...
Last year,2007, MLB teams were not supposed to pay anyone who was drafted below the 5th round a signing bonus above $123,000. The $123,000 was the amount that the last pick got (slot) in the 5th round.

Does that make sense? Obviously the Tigers did not care about the $123,000 and signed the guy above that. My guess is, he signed on or near August 15 & sat home all summer. However, he got $52,000 to sit out the summer.

quote:

Crosby

Where id you see about Crosby?

White Sox will be fine.

All that really matters is that they won the World Series in 2005.

Cubs won't win one 'til 2089....if then!

You go, Ken Williams. All you can do is try.

Agree with Been...it's December for goodness sake!

KW has the 05 lifetime pass that Hendry would kill for.

As always, Soxnole is percise, to the point, and correct.

Other than Tampa Bay, Baltimore and possibly the Royals, name me any teams in the American League that the Sox look better than right now?

Agreed we are a long way away from the season, but take a look at this team and tell me how they don't lose at least 90 games this year?

Look at the pitching rotation at this point:

1. Buehrle-Very nice pitcher, but no way a #1 anymore

2. Vazquez-A couple of nice seasons but not a #2

3. Contreras- HA HA HA!!!!!

4. Floyd-Lucky to win 10 games

5. Gonzalez-Maybe we could trade him for a second time and he would come back better on his third return???

Other than the middle of their lineup with Dye, Konerko and Thome, you guys have to admit they put the weakest lineup in the Central up there. Anybody ever see Jerry Owens get a hit??? Are we really paying Uribe 5 million to play second base??? On the plus side we are paying him approximately $65,000 for every hit he gets during a season.

It looks like a long season and I'm a Sox fan. I'd be more willing to cut Williams slack if he didn't make such ridiculous statements as he did this morning in the paper after once again getting beat to the punch. It upsets me that he thinks this team is competitive.

I also like how they didn't want to chase Andruw Jones after a bad season. By that theory wouldn't Thome still be a Phillie??????

As for lifetime passes, that didn't work out so well for Jerry Krause's legacy.

CoachIU26....

You are fired as a Sox fan.