Originally Posted by RJM:
The Phillies are trying to dump Papelbon. Will the Yankees go after him?
Are the Phillies willing to pay for them to do it?
I feel Papelbon would be a good fit for the Yankees even though I don't care for him personally but the Yankees have very little to give in any trades so they are going to have to go with free agents mostly. As mentioned above, they desperately need to rebuild their staff and if the Japanese guy Tanaka(I believe) is posted, they will be on him for sure but the new posting rules would make it impossible to just outbid everyone else.
Tanakas club is the only Japanese club to not agree with new posting rules. Might not be posted at all.
Originally Posted by Three Bagger:
I feel Papelbon would be a good fit for the Yankees even though I don't care for him personally but the Yankees have very little to give in any trades so they are going to have to go with free agents mostly. As mentioned above, they desperately need to rebuild their staff and if the Japanese guy Tanaka(I believe) is posted, they will be on him for sure but the new posting rules would make it impossible to just outbid everyone else.
Actually, I don't think that's the case. I could be interpreting it wrong, but the way I read the new rules is if multiple teams bid the maximum amount ($20 million), then the player (Tanaka) is free to negotiate with the teams as though he is a free agent. If this is the case- and again I may be reading it wrong- then I believe the Yankees are definitely frontrunners for him.
JH you are correct but his club has said they will not post him if the new rules take effect. 11 out of 12 voted for the new posting rules but his club voted against. That bwas the last I heard and that was this morning.
Yanks didn't waste much time... just signed Beltran for 3 yr, $45M. So now they have Soriano, Gardner, Vernon Wells, Ichiro and Beltran in the OF. Certainly not a position of need. Trade must be right behind this move. Who goes?
That's a pretty old OF, isn't it?
The beard is back. Napoli stays in Boston for 2\32M. I would like to see the Sox resign Drew. Another starting outfielder will depend on how the market shakes out. They don't want to overpay versus playing Bradley. Shin Soo Choo would be a good addition at the right price if no one goes overboard for him.
Originally Posted by RJM:
Shin Soo Choo would be a good addition at the right price if no one goes overboard for him.
Look for the Rangers to sign him.
Beltran is incredibly gifted, totally professional, and completely self-absorbed, so he'll be at home in the Bronx. Hope he plays more than 100 games per season.
Can you tell I was raised to be a Yankee-hater?
Originally Posted by cabbagedad:
Yanks didn't waste much time... just signed Beltran for 3 yr, $45M. So now they have Soriano, Gardner, Vernon Wells, Ichiro and Beltran in the OF. Certainly not a position of need. Trade must be right behind this move. Who goes?
That's a pretty old OF, isn't it?
Not counting Gardner, that's 4 outfielders whose average age next year will be 37.5. I think I'd be looking to add more OF, not get rid of any.
Presumably they're going to use the DH spot pretty liberally for Jeter and Beltran, and they probably aren't counting on full seasons from anyone but Gardner, but this is not stacking up to be a great team.
Surely Ichiro or Wells has to go with all the outfielders the Yankees have stockpiled. Surely Ellsbury, Gardner, Soriano, and Beltran will get most of the innings in the OF with one of the other two. Some AB's at DH will go to these guys also--probably mostly Soriano.
Originally Posted by JCG:
Beltran is incredibly gifted, totally professional, and completely self-absorbed, so he'll be at home in the Bronx. Hope he plays more than 100 games per season.
Can you tell I was raised to be a Yankee-hater?
Actually, I've spoken to several major leaguers who stated, completely unprovoked, that the best teammate they've ever had is Carlos Beltran. One described him as "the kind of guy you want to go out to have a beer with and bring home to introduce to your daughter." Another told me that he was most upset to leave St. Louis and sign with the organization he is currently playing for because he wouldn't be able to spend time with Beltran on a daily basis. Not really too sure where you get the impression that he's "self-absorbed." I've never heard that anywhere in the media either.
Originally Posted by Three Bagger:
Surely Ichiro or Wells has to go with all the outfielders the Yankees have stockpiled. Surely Ellsbury, Gardner, Soriano, and Beltran will get most of the innings in the OF with one of the other two. Some AB's at DH will go to these guys also--probably mostly Soriano.
I'd forgotten about Ellsbury, that makes things a bit less dicey in the OF. That's still a big injury-risk OF, but I don't see how they're going to keep Wells and Ichiro both as backups (assuming Soriano is actually at least a semi-regular).
Originally Posted by jacjacatk:
Originally Posted by cabbagedad:
Yanks didn't waste much time... just signed Beltran for 3 yr, $45M. So now they have Soriano, Gardner, Vernon Wells, Ichiro and Beltran in the OF. Certainly not a position of need. Trade must be right behind this move. Who goes?
That's a pretty old OF, isn't it?
Not counting Gardner, that's 4 outfielders whose average age next year will be 37.5. I think I'd be looking to add more OF, not get rid of any.
Presumably they're going to use the DH spot pretty liberally for Jeter and Beltran, and they probably aren't counting on full seasons from anyone but Gardner, but this is not stacking up to be a great team.
The Yankees thought they heard MLB was starting a seniors division. Great teams have pitching. The Yankees don't.
I really liked what the Yankees have done this off-season with their lineup letting Cano and Granderson go and getting back Ellsbury, McCann and Beltran. I never liked Cano and glad he's gone.Yanks got what they've been lacking which is big gamers.. As for their pitching, we'll see. I'm sure Yanks are far from finished revamping this team
I'm always about solutions. You have a crowded Yankee outfield with a Soriano, Ichiro, Gardner, Ellsbury, Beltran, etc.. and a vacated 2nd basemen position. Move Soriano back to 2nd base. Tada! Problem solved. It will be just like ol' times. 
All kidding aside, I like the Yankees signing of McCann, Beltran and Kuroda. They need to focus some time and effort on top shelf pitching and inning burners because they have neither..
Originally Posted by RJM:
The Yankees thought they heard MLB was starting a seniors division. Great teams have pitching. The Yankees don't.
Not yet...
Originally Posted by J H:
Originally Posted by JCG:
Beltran is incredibly gifted, totally professional, and completely self-absorbed, so he'll be at home in the Bronx. Hope he plays more than 100 games per season.
Can you tell I was raised to be a Yankee-hater?
Actually, I've spoken to several major leaguers who stated, completely unprovoked, that the best teammate they've ever had is Carlos Beltran. One described him as "the kind of guy you want to go out to have a beer with and bring home to introduce to your daughter." Another told me that he was most upset to leave St. Louis and sign with the organization he is currently playing for because he wouldn't be able to spend time with Beltran on a daily basis. Not really too sure where you get the impression that he's "self-absorbed." I've never heard that anywhere in the media either.
I am not surprised by what you say. Beltran has a rep for taking players like Pagan with the Mets and Sandoval with the Giants under his wing. And yeah that's contradictory to his rep as a selfish player. But people can be complex, and that rep does exist, and it's easy to find in the media. I guess it largely comes from his time with the Mets, particularly from his decision to not consult with the club when he missed a chunk of the 2010 season due to knee surgery. Even his teammates were questioning the timing in the press. You can Google it.
As a Giants fan I was sorry that the Giants didn't try to sign him after he was traded and became a free agent. Beltran let it be known in the media that he was interested. Of course he was going to be expensive, and the Giants always cry poor like they're a mid-market team even though they earn like a big market team, but discussions never went anywhere due to SFG disinterest, according to Beltran. Why? I don't know, but during his brief stint with Giants, he was injured a lot, and there was a sense, at least among the fans, that he was selfishly babying minor injuries that real Giants would try to play through.
Originally Posted by JCG:
Originally Posted by J H:
Originally Posted by JCG:
Beltran is incredibly gifted, totally professional, and completely self-absorbed, so he'll be at home in the Bronx. Hope he plays more than 100 games per season.
Can you tell I was raised to be a Yankee-hater?
Actually, I've spoken to several major leaguers who stated, completely unprovoked, that the best teammate they've ever had is Carlos Beltran. One described him as "the kind of guy you want to go out to have a beer with and bring home to introduce to your daughter." Another told me that he was most upset to leave St. Louis and sign with the organization he is currently playing for because he wouldn't be able to spend time with Beltran on a daily basis. Not really too sure where you get the impression that he's "self-absorbed." I've never heard that anywhere in the media either.
I am not surprised by what you say. Beltran has a rep for taking players like Pagan with the Mets and Sandoval with the Giants under his wing. And yeah that's contradictory to his rep as a selfish player. But people can be complex, and that rep does exist, and it's easy to find in the media. I guess it largely comes from his time with the Mets, particularly from his decision to not consult with the club when he missed a chunk of the 2010 season due to knee surgery. Even his teammates were questioning the timing in the press. You can Google it.
As a Giants fan I was sorry that the Giants didn't try to sign him after he was traded and became a free agent. Beltran let it be known in the media that he was interested. Of course he was going to be expensive, and the Giants always cry poor like they're a mid-market team even though they earn like a big market team, but discussions never went anywhere due to SFG disinterest, according to Beltran. Why? I don't know, but during his brief stint with Giants, he was injured a lot, and there was a sense, at least among the fans, that he was selfishly babying minor injuries that real Giants would try to play through.
Do you know anyone who knows Beltran personally or has ever played with him?
This is a business and the reasons why people do what they do are related to business. To some it may appear as self absorbed when it really isn't. Unless you know all of the details, how can you make those statements.
That being said my understanding is that Beltran is the type of guy who you would want in your clubhouse, and that much of this years success for the Cardinals is due to him working with the young players.
I have heard that many players are upset that he will not be in the clubhouse next year.
Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by JCG:
Originally Posted by J H:
Originally Posted by JCG:
Beltran is incredibly gifted, totally professional, and completely self-absorbed, so he'll be at home in the Bronx. Hope he plays more than 100 games per season.
Can you tell I was raised to be a Yankee-hater?
Actually, I've spoken to several major leaguers who stated, completely unprovoked, that the best teammate they've ever had is Carlos Beltran. One described him as "the kind of guy you want to go out to have a beer with and bring home to introduce to your daughter." Another told me that he was most upset to leave St. Louis and sign with the organization he is currently playing for because he wouldn't be able to spend time with Beltran on a daily basis. Not really too sure where you get the impression that he's "self-absorbed." I've never heard that anywhere in the media either.
I am not surprised by what you say. Beltran has a rep for taking players like Pagan with the Mets and Sandoval with the Giants under his wing. And yeah that's contradictory to his rep as a selfish player. But people can be complex, and that rep does exist, and it's easy to find in the media. I guess it largely comes from his time with the Mets, particularly from his decision to not consult with the club when he missed a chunk of the 2010 season due to knee surgery. Even his teammates were questioning the timing in the press. You can Google it.
As a Giants fan I was sorry that the Giants didn't try to sign him after he was traded and became a free agent. Beltran let it be known in the media that he was interested. Of course he was going to be expensive, and the Giants always cry poor like they're a mid-market team even though they earn like a big market team, but discussions never went anywhere due to SFG disinterest, according to Beltran. Why? I don't know, but during his brief stint with Giants, he was injured a lot, and there was a sense, at least among the fans, that he was selfishly babying minor injuries that real Giants would try to play through.
Do you know anyone who knows Beltran personally or has ever played with him?
This is a business and the reasons why people do what they do are related to business. To some it may appear as self absorbed when it really isn't. Unless you know all of the details, how can you make those statements.
That being said my understanding is that Beltran is the type of guy who you would want in your clubhouse, and that much of this years success for the Cardinals is due to him working with the young players.
I have heard that many players are upset that he will not be in the clubhouse next year.
Have you ever attended a baseball game at Yankee Stadium? Or watched a game at a bar in the Bronx? Or anyplace else? If you had you would know that we fans talk smack about baseball players. It's part of the culture. Now unless you are willing to police all the conversations in all the bars and bleachers in this great nation, I would advise you not to get your bloomers into a bunch when folks say stuff about MLB players.
BTW, Mr. Beltran, if you're listening, I think you are a hell of a ballplayer and I love watching you play. But you're a Yankee now, so you're the enemy. Sorry.
JCG- I'll address a few of your points.
First, I grew up in New York and spent many hours on the 4-train and the Courthouse Deli and finding a scalper for bleacher tickets with my friends as a teenager. I have a very good sense of the culture you speak of.
Second, I am familiar with Beltran's arthroscopic knee surgery when he was with the Mets, at a personal level. I can't delve into specifics so I'm sure this statement will seem rather vague, but don't believe everything you hear in the media. Even if it were 100% true that Beltran went behind the team's back without any consultation, I wouldn't think that having your knee scoped would peg you as a "selfish" player.
Third, I find it laughably ironic that you start a topic badmouthing a player, and when a few people retort your statement, you say to not get your "bloomers in a bunch." If I were in a bar in the Bronx with you (to continue with your example) I would've disputed your claim the same exact way I did here.
Fourth, I doubt Beltran is reading along. He spends his offseasons doing charitable work in his native Puerto Rico, which includes funding and opening a brand new high school.
To keep the discussion within the scope of the thread- I believe the Yankees will most likely flip Gardner for pitching. Soriano and Ellsbury are both considered above average defensive players. Juan Uribe is on the market and could be an option for 3B, although the pending A-Rod decision will obviously dictate any more moves in the infield. They signed Kelly Johnson and Dean Anna, two plus defensive infielders, who could serve as stopgaps instead of utility players. I'm also extremely skeptical about Derek Jeter's ability to play shortstop at a respectable level if/when he returns, and would assume that the team would prefer to see Brendan Ryan there everyday. If Jeter is healthy and can contribute offensively- which is much more likely- a move to 3B may have to be in order for him to continue as an everyday player.
JH, I mean this all in fun but you have got to be the first person I have heard of who has ever called Soriano an above average defensive player if you are talking about the outfield. He has improved some but Cubs fans have been making fun of his defensive abilities for years now.
I'm not sure Gardner, even though he is a very good player is the type that would bring much in a trade as far as pitching.
I think the Yankees have to pursue Omar Infante on a three year contract with maybe a fourth year option. He is 31 and hit for a good average .318 although he does not walk and is not a great OBP guy. He has a little pop and might reach 15 HRs in NY. They could then use Kelly Johnson as a utility guy or some at third as a stopgap. Brendan Ryan is a good guy to have as a backup also. But if the Yankees go with a twelve or thirteen man staff some of the outfielders/ infielders may have to go.
Originally Posted by Three Bagger:
JH, I mean this all in fun but you have got to be the first person I have heard of who has ever called Soriano an above average defensive player if you are talking about the outfield. He has improved some but Cubs fans have been making fun of his defensive abilities for years now.
I'm not sure Gardner, even though he is a very good player is the type that would bring much in a trade as far as pitching.
Actually, defensive metrics have Soriano as an average to slightly above average left fielder since 2006. http://www.fangraphs.com/stats.../OF#fieldingadvanced. Not to sound arrogant or cavalier by any means, but I don't care at all what fans say about the ability of players.
(EDIT: What I mean by "I don't care what fans say" is that often times, fans think on emotions and not with rational, data-driven decisions. A lot of fans are knowledgable, but the information by which they make decisions is not usually the most accurate way to evaluate. I know Three Bagger most likely knew what I meant, but I wanted to qualify in general.)
Peter Bourjos and a low-level prospect yielded David Freese as a return for the Angels. I see Gardner in a similar light to Bourjos- plus defense, lots of speed. Bourjos is probably a bit better defensively and has more years of team control, but Gardner is probably a better hitter and a bigger factor on the bases. I think the Yankees could yield a back-end starter in return for Gardner, someone who'd be able to contribute at least league average innings, and a lot of them. There's quite a bit of value in that.
Originally Posted by J H:
Originally Posted by Three Bagger:
JH, I mean this all in fun but you have got to be the first person I have heard of who has ever called Soriano an above average defensive player if you are talking about the outfield. He has improved some but Cubs fans have been making fun of his defensive abilities for years now.
I'm not sure Gardner, even though he is a very good player is the type that would bring much in a trade as far as pitching.
Actually, defensive metrics have Soriano as an average to slightly above average left fielder since 2006. http://www.fangraphs.com/stats.../OF#fieldingadvanced. Not to sound arrogant or cavalier by any means, but I don't care at all what fans say about the ability of players.
(EDIT: What I mean by "I don't care what fans say" is that often times, fans think on emotions and not with rational, data-driven decisions. A lot of fans are knowledgable, but the information by which they make decisions is not usually the most accurate way to evaluate. I know Three Bagger most likely knew what I meant, but I wanted to qualify in general.)
Peter Bourjos and a low-level prospect yielded David Freese as a return for the Angels. I see Gardner in a similar light to Bourjos- plus defense, lots of speed. Bourjos is probably a bit better defensively and has more years of team control, but Gardner is probably a better hitter and a bigger factor on the bases. I think the Yankees could yield a back-end starter in return for Gardner, someone who'd be able to contribute at least league average innings, and a lot of them. There's quite a bit of value in that.
UZR (fangraphs.com) seems to like him well enough. Without looking too deeply into it, I assume that's because the fielding talent pool in LF is so bad that he's solid by comparison to the competition, which is not the same thing as saying the Yankees would be better off with Soriano-Ellsbury-Gardner than Gardner-Ellsbury-Ichiro/Wells.
Originally Posted by jacjacatk:
Originally Posted by J H:
Originally Posted by Three Bagger:
JH, I mean this all in fun but you have got to be the first person I have heard of who has ever called Soriano an above average defensive player if you are talking about the outfield. He has improved some but Cubs fans have been making fun of his defensive abilities for years now.
I'm not sure Gardner, even though he is a very good player is the type that would bring much in a trade as far as pitching.
Actually, defensive metrics have Soriano as an average to slightly above average left fielder since 2006. http://www.fangraphs.com/stats.../OF#fieldingadvanced. Not to sound arrogant or cavalier by any means, but I don't care at all what fans say about the ability of players.
(EDIT: What I mean by "I don't care what fans say" is that often times, fans think on emotions and not with rational, data-driven decisions. A lot of fans are knowledgable, but the information by which they make decisions is not usually the most accurate way to evaluate. I know Three Bagger most likely knew what I meant, but I wanted to qualify in general.)
Peter Bourjos and a low-level prospect yielded David Freese as a return for the Angels. I see Gardner in a similar light to Bourjos- plus defense, lots of speed. Bourjos is probably a bit better defensively and has more years of team control, but Gardner is probably a better hitter and a bigger factor on the bases. I think the Yankees could yield a back-end starter in return for Gardner, someone who'd be able to contribute at least league average innings, and a lot of them. There's quite a bit of value in that.
UZR (fangraphs.com) seems to like him well enough. Without looking too deeply into it, I assume that's because the fielding talent pool in LF is so bad that he's solid by comparison to the competition, which is not the same thing as saying the Yankees would be better off with Soriano-Ellsbury-Gardner than Gardner-Ellsbury-Ichiro/Wells.
Agree 100%. But I'd venture to say it's safe to assume that Gardner would yield a better return than Soriano or Ichiro or Wells in a trade. The opportunity cost in correlation with the current makeup of their pitching staff leads me to say that in this particular situation, trading Gardner may be the best option of all.
For the most part, fielding demographics still leave a lot to be desired especially in one or two year slices. How does Mike Trout's numbers look so much worse than the year before? Soriano was notorious for misjudging balls hit directly at him or over him in Chicago. He made Sports Center multiple times by misplaying balls in left. He got better at handling balls that he gets his hands on but his instincts still seem lacking and he is hesitant at the wall. His good stats have A LOT to do with what he is compared to though as you stated.
Gardner is eligible for free agency after next season. He's a peripheral player. He won't bring much in return. Hopefully the Yankees don't have enough quality prospects (don't think they do) to trade for Price.
FWIW, ML players do not have to consult with the team regarding surgery, it is their decision.
BTW, this isn't a bar in the Bronx.
JMO
Not a lot of Angel fans on this board, but I'm really feeling good about today's trade. Trumbo's got great pop, obviously, but he's proven to be extremely streaky with too many K's. Offense is not the Angels issue. I'm really happy to see Tyler Skaggs back, only 22 with great stuff, very good potential for near future front-of-rotation impact. Plus, they get Hector Santiago from the W. Sox, who is also young, and threw pretty well for Chicago last year.
It looks like the Rangers got Choo. 7 years/$130M. Richard Justice thinks the Rangers are at the top of the mountain....weren't they anointed top of the mountain a few years ago too?. I look at that lineup and say "eh". Its better, but not top of the mountain....not so fast.
Projected lineup is:
Shin-Soo Choo, LF.
Elvis Andrus, SS.
Adrian Beltre, 3B.
Prince Fielder, 1B.
Alex Rios, RF.
Mitch Moreland, DH.
Giovany Soto, C.
Jurickson Profar, 2B.
Leonys Martin, CF.
Fenway I agree with you on this. Remember last years anointed one, Toronto?
Okay, the Tanaka drama has officially started. He just officially posted a couple hours ago. Who is he going to? Insight?
The Yankees will pay whatever it takes.
I am with RJM.
I think Tanaka is a Yankee unless he doesn't want to be. There will be half a dozen teams that will offer up the $20m to talk (Dodgers, Cubs, Red Sox and Yankees for sure), but he'd fill a glaring need for the Yankees and they don't mind over paying in $'s & years.
The Sox aren't interested. Their system is loaded with pitching prospects. They're trying to trade starting pitching.
The Red Sox primary interest is to make sure the Yankees pay top dollar by driving the price up. I agree, after the Dice K experience I wouldn't go this route again.
It should be noted this kid is 25, so he is a young talent. Rumor has it his fastball is flat and he'll need to develop the secondary pitches or find some movement. He isn't exactly a sure thing.
Point taken JMoff and RJM. The Red Sox are in it to drive up the price. I think if they wait a year, they'll have more choices and less risk.
What I'm not sure of is Tanaka's preference. Does he want to hit or just pitch? Can he hit, and can he hit better than most national league pitchers? I dunno. But I got to believe the Dodgers, Cubs and Reds are interested.
Yankees are being held hostage with the ongoing ARod drama. I expect ARod will not win his appeal, and the Yankees are going to have to make some difficult financial decisions going forward. They've got some old contracts and old players (ARod, Jeter, Sabathia, Ichiro, Texieria) that provide some productivity. Their clubhouse more closely resembles a retirement community. If they throw all their money at Tanaka, and he is a bust then they really will be up the creek with contract or financial flexibility long term. Maybe the Yankees are in it for the same reason the Red Sox are.....and they are bluffing? I don't think so, but it crossed my mind.
I've seen this movie before. GM has a sweet tooth for Japanese pitchers. Club pays a lot of money for a Japanese superstar that ends up being a #4 or #5 starting pitcher. If you were the Cubs, would you have someone looking over Theo Epstein's shoulder? Absolutely!
The Orioles will offer him a one year deal with a club option for year 2...then be shocked when he doesn't accept..... By one calculation, the O's have around $40 million more to spend (per year) from freed up contracts and MLB money...and yet twiddle their thumbs, righteously claiming that they don't do long term contracts, they don't do over-spending, they don't do questionable physicals, ..in fact, they don't do anything. They have an Obama-style attitude-they hope for change, while doing nothing to effect positive changes. Until Aladdin's Lamp is found in Baltimore Harbor, no chance.... Sigh.....must be my baseball penance....