Will
If you are in the club as well I feel honored--I am in good company
The problem is not with radar guns ..it's with Dad's using radar guns during a HS game. To me, that's a sign of an overinvolved Dad who takes his son's athletic performance too seriously. I would bet that it sends the same message to everyone else in the stands...and on the field.
TXMom
You say out loud what I was thinking. I have been at times accused of "parent bashing" so maybe if I said the same it would be seen as such.
You say out loud what I was thinking. I have been at times accused of "parent bashing" so maybe if I said the same it would be seen as such.
What ever happened to the emphasis on location? The term used to be pitching is like buying real estate, location, location, location. Is this becoming a lost art because it doesn't seem like anyone even talks about it anymore?
quote:
Originally posted by TxMom:
The problem is not with radar guns ..it's with Dad's using radar guns during a HS game. To me, that's a sign of an overinvolved Dad who takes his son's athletic performance too seriously. I would bet that it sends the same message to everyone else in the stands...and on the field.
Can you say, "hit the nail on the head"? I've got a radar gun. I use my gun on my son. It is used during bullpen work ONLY and is never brought out during a game, HS or select. It is a great tool but you have to use it with the knowledge of baseball "etiquite".
Besides, during a game I can tell with my eyes if my son's velocity is off without any problem. I don't need a gun during a game. A gun is properly used to chart progress and to measure the effect of changes in grips, release points, arm angles, and footwork.
[QUOTE]
Therefore, you don't know whether a pitcher is throwing his velocity potential or not.
Therefore, you may not know when a pitcher needs mechanical work.
QUOTE]
You know when a pitcher needs mechanical work by observing his mechanics, not by using the radar gun. The radar gun measures velocity; it doesn't analyze mechanics.
I remember a dad a few years ago who bought a radar gun and started bringing it to the games. When he noticed that his son's velocity was not as high as the other three starting pitchers on the team the radar gun disappeared.....forever I think.
Therefore, you don't know whether a pitcher is throwing his velocity potential or not.
Therefore, you may not know when a pitcher needs mechanical work.
QUOTE]
You know when a pitcher needs mechanical work by observing his mechanics, not by using the radar gun. The radar gun measures velocity; it doesn't analyze mechanics.
I remember a dad a few years ago who bought a radar gun and started bringing it to the games. When he noticed that his son's velocity was not as high as the other three starting pitchers on the team the radar gun disappeared.....forever I think.
quote:
... To me, that's a sign of an overinvolved Dad who takes his son's athletic performance too seriously. I would bet that it sends the same message to everyone else in the stands...and on the field.
First of all the last thing a developing player should worry about is what other parents think about him.
Secondly, the radar gives information that you have no other way of getting.
Thirdly, the other parents don't know what they are talking about or they'd do the same thing if within their means.
quote:
...You know when a pitcher needs mechanical work by observing his mechanics, not by using the radar gun. The radar gun measures velocity; it doesn't analyze mechanics.
You go from this to......
...."ok Teacherman...am I suppose to believe if a pitcher is maintaining or increasing his velocity then his mechanics must be sound.
Which do you really mean?
quote:
...I remember a dad a few years ago who bought a radar gun and started bringing it to the games. When he noticed that his son's velocity was not as high as the other three starting pitchers on the team the radar gun disappeared.....forever I think.
Obviously, this dad was not using the gun for the purpose I recommend.
quote:
...Besides, during a game I can tell with my eyes if my son's velocity is off without any problem. I don't need a gun during a game. A gun is properly used to chart progress and to measure the effect of changes in grips, release points, arm angles, and footwork.
This statement can only be made by someone who has never stood by his son and watched the radar reading pitch by pitch.
Identical looking deliveries can vary by 5 mph.
Your eye has no clue.
Okay, Teacherman, though you didn't explain what you mean by your last comment, am supposed to believe that if a pitcher is maintaining velocity or increasing velocity then his mechanics must be sound?
By what you are saying, this is implied. Please correct me if I am wrong.
By what you are saying, this is implied. Please correct me if I am wrong.
In my opinion, this tool can be extremely helpful for players at the high school level. Players at this level should get use to seeing them around wether it be a parent, college coach, or scout.
As a Coach if I find that someone with a radar gun is distracting myself or my players, then I'm not doing my job. A coaches focus is on the game, on the field, not in the stands.
Using a radar gun on players prior to high school, in my opinion, is dangerous, unfounded, and very intimidating. The primary focus should be on proper mechanics, learning to throw correctly, and keeping it simple.
If more time was spent on proper mechanics at an early age, this would most likely eliminate allot of arm injuries. Between the ages of 10 through 16, and some as late as 18, growth plates have not fused yet. Not warming up properly and trying to throw beyond your means at an early age is simply dangerous.
As a Coach if I find that someone with a radar gun is distracting myself or my players, then I'm not doing my job. A coaches focus is on the game, on the field, not in the stands.
Using a radar gun on players prior to high school, in my opinion, is dangerous, unfounded, and very intimidating. The primary focus should be on proper mechanics, learning to throw correctly, and keeping it simple.
If more time was spent on proper mechanics at an early age, this would most likely eliminate allot of arm injuries. Between the ages of 10 through 16, and some as late as 18, growth plates have not fused yet. Not warming up properly and trying to throw beyond your means at an early age is simply dangerous.
I attended a clinic years ago where Tom Seaver gave a talk on pitching. the last time i checked he won 300 plus games in the major leagues and is in the hall of Fame. So I think his "credentials" on talking about pitching are solid. he said the most important thing in pitching are location movement and velocity. he also emphasized they came in that order.
Will,
We have all known and watched some players get away with location and velocity without much movement. However, (with a few exceptions) Junk ball throwers (slow, location with wicked movement) usually or eventually get found out within a few innings. Again, there are a few exceptions.
We have all known and watched some players get away with location and velocity without much movement. However, (with a few exceptions) Junk ball throwers (slow, location with wicked movement) usually or eventually get found out within a few innings. Again, there are a few exceptions.
MICDSGUY
As we say down south, "you a funny guy,.....hour glass, Greeks, yep funny guy."
As we say down south, "you a funny guy,.....hour glass, Greeks, yep funny guy."
quote:
location, movement and velocity
When they make a radar that measures all three (they will some day) I'll be the first to buy one. Current models only show speed which is useful info by itself.
Note that radar also shows another quality, pitching endurance.
quote:
To me, that's a sign of an overinvolved Dad who takes his son's athletic performance too seriously.
What if the pitcher--a savvy kid--wants this info, not the parent? It's not like the pitcher can gun himself. Or would you call him an overinvolved player?
quote:
When [dad] noticed that his son's velocity was not as high as the other three starting pitchers on the team the radar gun disappeared
If we invented a gun that could measure location, movement, AND speed, parents of bad pitchers would still object to them. True?
I just can't justify spending $900 for a quality radar gun that I might only have a real need to use a couple times a year. For velocity, between showcases, tournaments, and the High School's own gun, I can usually get the occassional reference check on flat velocity by just looking over someone else's shoulder (i.e., scouts) unobtrusively for a few pitches or simply asking politely. His club coach also works in the pen with him, and will occasionally check his velocity with a gun in the pen just to validate whether some fine-tuning of mechanics is having the expected effect, but not to try and get him to throw harder.
For a training tool, I simply videotape my son's outings on the mound, and I do so as unobtrusively as possible. I'll usually set up the video camera behind the backstop on a tripod well before game time, usually next to one of the backstop posts so it's mostly hidden from view ... sometimes off to one side or the other depending upon the field. Then I walk away and just let it run. I don't want to be a distraction by standing behind the backstop and I don't want it to pick up any audio of my voice. I'll just sit down the baseline a ways where I can cheer.
I then use video editing software to cut out all the dead time so I can get 4-5 innings down to about 8-9 minutes of running time. He likes to review these himself to look at his mechanics, control, how certain pitches worked against certain types of batters, etc. He also likes to analyze his offensive at-bats with the same video ... which I'll break out into a separate 'hitting' video from the same tape using the editing software. He usually just knows if he's "strokin' it" or feeling a little 'off' ... the video just helps him confirm what he's already feeling so he can make minor adjustments ... head, hand loading, lower body spin, etc. ... when he's working in the cage.
For a training tool, I simply videotape my son's outings on the mound, and I do so as unobtrusively as possible. I'll usually set up the video camera behind the backstop on a tripod well before game time, usually next to one of the backstop posts so it's mostly hidden from view ... sometimes off to one side or the other depending upon the field. Then I walk away and just let it run. I don't want to be a distraction by standing behind the backstop and I don't want it to pick up any audio of my voice. I'll just sit down the baseline a ways where I can cheer.
I then use video editing software to cut out all the dead time so I can get 4-5 innings down to about 8-9 minutes of running time. He likes to review these himself to look at his mechanics, control, how certain pitches worked against certain types of batters, etc. He also likes to analyze his offensive at-bats with the same video ... which I'll break out into a separate 'hitting' video from the same tape using the editing software. He usually just knows if he's "strokin' it" or feeling a little 'off' ... the video just helps him confirm what he's already feeling so he can make minor adjustments ... head, hand loading, lower body spin, etc. ... when he's working in the cage.
Let me make a suggestion. At the next booster club meeting those parents wanting radar guns at high school games and practices, make a motion that the booster club purchase a radar gun. Our high school had one. That way every parent can observe their son's speed, or lack of, and take appropriate action. Problem solved. An added feature...during the off season you can borrow the teams radar gun, hide behind the garbage can and monitor your son’s speed as he pulls in the driveway.
Fungo
Fungo
About 25 to 30 years ago(not sure exactly) I remember people(including myself) making
comments about the few "priviledged" snobs that had cellular phones-BIG ones that you
carried in a black leather bag and some that were installed in their expensive Caddies and
Mercedes. Comments like "What a show-off, why can't they use a pay phone like the rest of us?" or "I just don't think it's necessary to have one of those, if it's important enough
to make a call they should've thought of that before they got in their car!"
Boy, have times changed! I'll bet everyone on this website has at least one cellphone and
CAN'T live without it.
Bottom line is that if Stalkers cost $50 bucks we'd all have one-at least all the pitchers'
parents-and there would be so many microwaves flying around at HS games you wouldn't need
to grill the hot dogs in the concession stand-just hold 'em up.
Tell you what, if it's not important to know the velocity that your son is throwing MLB
and Colleges sure are wasting a lot of money. Oh yea, If you only need to radar your son
in the bullpen then the same should apply to scouts as well--no need to use it during the game if you got the bullpen, right?
Come on folks, lighten up. If technology comes out we use it, why should one group have the
right to use the gun during the game and not another. Think about it.
comments about the few "priviledged" snobs that had cellular phones-BIG ones that you
carried in a black leather bag and some that were installed in their expensive Caddies and
Mercedes. Comments like "What a show-off, why can't they use a pay phone like the rest of us?" or "I just don't think it's necessary to have one of those, if it's important enough
to make a call they should've thought of that before they got in their car!"
Boy, have times changed! I'll bet everyone on this website has at least one cellphone and
CAN'T live without it.
Bottom line is that if Stalkers cost $50 bucks we'd all have one-at least all the pitchers'
parents-and there would be so many microwaves flying around at HS games you wouldn't need
to grill the hot dogs in the concession stand-just hold 'em up.
Tell you what, if it's not important to know the velocity that your son is throwing MLB
and Colleges sure are wasting a lot of money. Oh yea, If you only need to radar your son
in the bullpen then the same should apply to scouts as well--no need to use it during the game if you got the bullpen, right?
Come on folks, lighten up. If technology comes out we use it, why should one group have the
right to use the gun during the game and not another. Think about it.
Why don't we talk about cell phones at kids baseball games?
Fungo, Good point-Have the gun on all the time and if a parent(or anyone) wants to know it's there for all to see. Just like at Wilmington-
no secrets.
no secrets.
Fungo ...
LOL! That was good!
I honestly don't know why I keep posting on this topic other than it's hit a nerve. I can't help but think that some people are missing the point.
IMHO when Dads become too involved in their son's performance, it can mess up their son's play. I know that most Dads mean well and truely enjoy the interaction with their sons, but at some point they need to back off. I've seen so many kids with talent fall apart in game situations due to an unsuspecting Dad's continued input regarding performance. Quite simply, they put too much information in their kid's head and it messes up his ability to focus and perform.
Several years ago BeenthereIL, of all people, wrote a great post about a mother's role in the stands. For years I had it posted on my file cabinet and only recently lost it. It basically said that high school boys look to their mothers to fill their natural need for support and encouragement...not for a critique on their performance.
I would argue that they need the same from their Dads.
LOL! That was good!
I honestly don't know why I keep posting on this topic other than it's hit a nerve. I can't help but think that some people are missing the point.
IMHO when Dads become too involved in their son's performance, it can mess up their son's play. I know that most Dads mean well and truely enjoy the interaction with their sons, but at some point they need to back off. I've seen so many kids with talent fall apart in game situations due to an unsuspecting Dad's continued input regarding performance. Quite simply, they put too much information in their kid's head and it messes up his ability to focus and perform.
Several years ago BeenthereIL, of all people, wrote a great post about a mother's role in the stands. For years I had it posted on my file cabinet and only recently lost it. It basically said that high school boys look to their mothers to fill their natural need for support and encouragement...not for a critique on their performance.
I would argue that they need the same from their Dads.
I guess all father/son relationships are identical.
Here that Scout? Stop helping your son.
Here that Scout? Stop helping your son.
Teacherman...
Help your son by developing his character, self-discipline, and respect for those involved in the game. He will need those "tools" more than anything to make it to the "next level."
Help your son by developing his character, self-discipline, and respect for those involved in the game. He will need those "tools" more than anything to make it to the "next level."
I give all the ladies a pass on this site.
But if you want to get into it lets go.....
How about you help us by staying out of something about which you know little or nothing.
Don't dish if you can't take.
But if you want to get into it lets go.....
How about you help us by staying out of something about which you know little or nothing.
Don't dish if you can't take.
A lot of judgements being thrown around here. imo
If you don't want to take one don't. If you do, go ahead. Why would anyone care. A lot of people here are quick to judge others for not thinking like they do.
I was my son's pitching coach for the last 2 years of hs. If I want to take a gun and chart his pitches in order to do a better job with the info I get, what do you guys care? I happen to prefer to watch the game than chart, but it is a legit activity. Letting your perceptions of others get in the way and judging others is your problem, not mine.
If you don't want to take one don't. If you do, go ahead. Why would anyone care. A lot of people here are quick to judge others for not thinking like they do.
I was my son's pitching coach for the last 2 years of hs. If I want to take a gun and chart his pitches in order to do a better job with the info I get, what do you guys care? I happen to prefer to watch the game than chart, but it is a legit activity. Letting your perceptions of others get in the way and judging others is your problem, not mine.
Teacherman
Telling anybody to stay out of something they little or nothing is just rude. Several of other posters including myself have been told our knowledge is lacking. This site was designed to exchange ideas. Agreeing or disagreeing is part of that exchange. However your know it all attitude is abrasive and annoying. I am being polite.
Telling anybody to stay out of something they little or nothing is just rude. Several of other posters including myself have been told our knowledge is lacking. This site was designed to exchange ideas. Agreeing or disagreeing is part of that exchange. However your know it all attitude is abrasive and annoying. I am being polite.
Sometimes a view from a different angle can shed some new light on a subject. It did for me.
TxMom, group hug! I love you!
Right back at ya, Biggie!
TXMOM
I for one have no problem with baseball ladies getting into the fray--my wife knows as much if not more tha I do about the game-
WE LEARN FROM EACH OTHER !!
I for one have no problem with baseball ladies getting into the fray--my wife knows as much if not more tha I do about the game-
WE LEARN FROM EACH OTHER !!
That's no surprise.
Thanks, TR!
TxMom
When you see a dad with a radar gun you see all that's bad.
When I see a dad with a radar gun I see BigHit helping his son become a better pitcher.
It's your choice.
When you see a dad with a radar gun you see all that's bad.
When I see a dad with a radar gun I see BigHit helping his son become a better pitcher.
It's your choice.
I saw BigHit at many games ...and never saw him with a radar gun.
A few years ago at the T1 North showcase a couple of obnoxious dads had their "guns" onsite and making under the breath comments on many players. It was rude. The next day my wife and friend sat behind them with their hairdryers. When these guys pointed the wifes pointed and did they get a laugh. The guys tried to move and they were told they were being shadowed until the gun went away. A sight to behold.
I can see where guns can be a useful tool. I would find it interesting to collect data from not only my kid but any other on his tean that would like to see their progress charted. You just have to remember that you are not looking at speed but the relationship between innings, velocity, and specific pitches. This is the type of knowledge that a pitcher needs to understand in order to improve.
I can see where guns can be a useful tool. I would find it interesting to collect data from not only my kid but any other on his tean that would like to see their progress charted. You just have to remember that you are not looking at speed but the relationship between innings, velocity, and specific pitches. This is the type of knowledge that a pitcher needs to understand in order to improve.
quote:
I would find it interesting to collect data from not only my kid but any other on his tean that would like to see their progress charted. You just have to remember that you are not looking at speed but the relationship between innings, velocity, and specific pitches. This is the type of knowledge that a pitcher needs to understand in order to improve.
Professional and college coaches feel that charting with a gun helps their guys improve. I would think the same would apply in high school.
quote:
Originally posted by grateful:
Okay, Teacherman, though you didn't explain what you mean by your last comment, am supposed to believe that if a pitcher is maintaining velocity or increasing velocity then his mechanics must be sound?
By what you are saying, this is implied. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Teacherman, I have been hoping you could answer the above question for me. Either you did not read it originally, or you just can't think of an answer (put down) just yet.
quote:
Originally posted by Teacherman:quote:
...Besides, during a game I can tell with my eyes if my son's velocity is off without any problem. I don't need a gun during a game. A gun is properly used to chart progress and to measure the effect of changes in grips, release points, arm angles, and footwork.
This statement can only be made by someone who has never stood by his son and watched the radar reading pitch by pitch.
Identical looking deliveries can vary by 5 mph.
Your eye has no clue.
Thanks for your opinion about my abilities but I will disagree with you. If I was a SCOUT then I would definitely have a gun - but I have been watching this kid pitch for 10 years and I do not need or want a gun to spot problems in a GAME. If there are problems in a GAME believe me they are not velocity related. Game problems almost always revolve around not being able to spot a fastball or not being able to throw a certain pitch - mechanical in nature.
Remember, I am not SCOUTING my son I am observing him. Big difference.
1. It seems that most everyone would agree that major league teams and college teams are using guns so they must feel there is some positive purpose.
2. Most of us if given a chance would from time-to-time peek over at a scout’s gun to see what a high schooler is throwing if given the chance so it could be just a case of “Radar gun envy”.
The problem seems to come down to whether we want to be seen holding one and most of us wouldn’t especially in ballparks where the ladies were known to follow you around with hair dryers.
It comes down to us needing to find a way to get the data without holding the weapon personally. Perhaps a solution might be to buy the high school team a gun with the understanding that the readings will be secretly supplied.
That way the team can take advantage of the same tool colleges and pros use and the rest of us can satisfy our thirst for data. We all win, plus the ladies don’t need to drag their hair dryers to the game.
2. Most of us if given a chance would from time-to-time peek over at a scout’s gun to see what a high schooler is throwing if given the chance so it could be just a case of “Radar gun envy”.
The problem seems to come down to whether we want to be seen holding one and most of us wouldn’t especially in ballparks where the ladies were known to follow you around with hair dryers.
It comes down to us needing to find a way to get the data without holding the weapon personally. Perhaps a solution might be to buy the high school team a gun with the understanding that the readings will be secretly supplied.
That way the team can take advantage of the same tool colleges and pros use and the rest of us can satisfy our thirst for data. We all win, plus the ladies don’t need to drag their hair dryers to the game.