How Do Coaches Feel About Parents With Radar

I think at the HS level and beyond they had better get used to it.

We just had over 3,000 veiws and 80+ post on the 60 time. Whats the difference if someone brings a stopwatch to the game and clocks the players running or gets the catcher's pop time.

It's part of the game at that level and beyond.

CV

I much prefer the Dad(s) to be rooting for their son and the team but if they want to use the "gun" they had better have readings for the opposing pitchers as well as any pitcher of ours in the game, not just their own son.--Requiring this can be a deterrent to some

A few years back I had a dad who charted every pitch, for and against us, regardless of who was on the man. And he had a pretty good sense regarding the velocity even with no "gun"

With us , as long as they do not go over the top it is fine

My personal opinion is that Dad's shouldn't have radar guns. Leave that to the professionals. Spend your time in the stands as a fan, encouraging your son's team.

TXMOM

An intersting side bar to this discussion--I have noticed that many of the Dads carrying radar guns are beginning to dress like the scouts-- it is happening more and more--at some events you cannot tell the dads from the scouts

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An intersting side bar to this discussion--I have noticed that many of the Dads carrying radar guns are beginning to dress like the scouts

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Yeah, we've joked about showing up with a few notebooks and three cell phones. Need to cake the gun with 10 years worth of travel gunk. Bet that would spur the kids to play well. BTW, ya got any scout fashion tips?

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they had better have readings for the opposing pitchers as well as any pitcher of ours in the game, not just their own son.

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I'm not sure what you mean. Should the dad be expected to share his readings, which I'm glad to do?

I've sort of thought that gunning other pitchers on your kid's team might be seen as intrusive. Don't want it seen as My-Kid-Is-Faster-Than-Your-Kid.

The other huge factor is 90% of kids (and dads) will be disappointed with even the best radar clockings.

Mi

In our system if you are gunning your kid you better be gunning the other pitcher as well--- Why shouldn't we take advantage of having the gun there ?

In fact though we do not get many dads with a gun and I leave mine home so they do not ask to use it--there are usually enough scouts at the events we attend to make it simple to find out what the kid is throwing if you really want to know and the scouts reading is yusually a bit lower than Dad's

There is no reason for a parent to have a radar gun at a hs game. Good rule of thumb... If no one else is putting the radar on your son there is probably no reason for a parent to do so. If someone else is gunning your son you can ask....I found this (ignorance) to be useful when meeting the college and pro scouts.
Fungo

Good post Fungo. I often wondered how fast the ball was traveling. The bottom line was it was apparently fast enough to help the team and advance a level. I am usually more concerned with the balls direction than is velocity. If it's fast enough to be noteworthy, you will find out when it is.

Regarding gunning pitchers...

"Boys, there's the first pitcher I ever saw that changed speeds on his change-up." - New York Giants Outfielder Dusty Rhodes

Stu Miller it was said never threw a pitch over 50 mph. When Miller was called up by the Cardinals in mid-1952 and manager Eddie Stanky first saw the harmless-looking, 165-lb pitcher, he asked the clubhouse man, "Who's that stenographer?" In his initial start that August 12, Miller shut out the Cubs 1-0. When he first faced the Dodgers, he no-hit them into the eighth inning. But he struggled after his rookie season and spent time in the minors before emerging as one of baseball's best relievers.

It was said that Miller threw at three speeds - slow, slower, and slowest; that "he threw a pitch that stopped"; and that "if you wait five minutes, the ball gets to you fairly fast."

He got by on a variety of curveballs and by changing speeds on his changeup. With his herky-jerky windup, he baffled hitters in both leagues.

With the Giants in 1958, he recorded a league-best 2.47 ERA, starting and relieving. He was the NL Fireman of the Year in 1961, when he registered league highs of 17 saves and 14 relief wins. Well-remembered for being literally blown off the mound by a gust of wind at Candlestick Park in the '61 All-Star Game, he won the contest, striking out Mickey Mantle, Roy Sievers, and Elston Howard in succession.

I am with TXMOM, but I see that Dad's (most) have other opinions. Leave the guns to the professionals, and if you have one leave it at home, you look soooooo ridiculous out there (no wonder why some of you dress like the scouts, you don't want to be identified as a PARENT). If you need to know the velocity, ask, anyone will gladly tell you. Funny thing is, when you really get to know your kid from OBSERVING over the years, you will know basically what the speed coming in is.
Scout told us last year any parent that he sees with a gun, he avoids.

Question, for those of you that have one, is the gun for your son or your own ego?

I have to admit that I am a gadget guy and have a couple of guns that are usually buried somewhere in the back of my Tahoe.

Knowing this, a coach once asked if I would get my gun and gun all the pitchers in the game. I reluctantly agreed. I sat in the press box behind home plate and carefully recorded all of the pitchers.

I kept meticulous records of both teams. Many of the dads would poke their heads in to find out the readings. Others huddled around me for the whole game.

At the end of the game, I handed over my efforts to the coach. He studied the sheets and remarked about the league's current flame-thrower, "Wow, 37mph, little Gene was really bringing the heat!"

Pretty silly!

Dad's, leave your guns at home, or at least buried under the spare catcher's equipment in your car, like I do. BTW, my son doesn't even catch!

The only time that I ever used a gun was when my son's advisor showed up with one. I borrowed his once and did not take it to the game. I just felt stupid. I personally don't have a problem with a dad doing it. i just won't

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TXMOM

An intersting side bar to this discussion--I have noticed that many of the Dads carrying radar guns are beginning to dress like the scouts-- it is happening more and more--at some events you cannot tell the dads from the scouts

TRhit

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I have noticed this as well. I even started to dres like a scout with my special desert hat and all. lol

I do use the gun in bullpens for feedback.

I posted this a few years ago, but here it is again. You probably can't see the size of the kids, but this was a 10 or 11 year old game in Houston. I was shaking my head as I took this picture.

GLOVE MAN

That has to be the world famous DADDY RAY GUN

You canbuy tem on ebay

I KNOW IT IS A NECESSITY WITH THE SCOUTS AS THEY HAVE A JOB TO DO. IT IS A DISTRACTION THEN BUT THERE IS A POINT FOR ITS USE. PARENTS SITTING THERE USING THEM? wHATS THE POINT?

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Originally posted by Will:
I KNOW IT IS A NECESSITY WITH THE SCOUTS AS THEY HAVE A JOB TO DO. IT IS A DISTRACTION THEN BUT THERE IS A POINT FOR ITS USE. PARENTS SITTING THERE USING THEM? wHATS THE POINT?

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First you ask the question, then it is in all caps.

Both illustrate the lack of knowledge of very opinionated people who should know better.

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Originally posted by fungo:
There is no reason for a parent to have a radar gun at a hs game. Good rule of thumb... If no one else is putting the radar on your son there is probably no reason for a parent to do so. If someone else is gunning your son you can ask....I found this (ignorance) to be useful when meeting the college and pro scouts.
Fungo

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I really believe you are wiser than this.

Darn it Will--please behave--you are getting MR KNOW IT ALL all upset

Off to the PATS and COLTS

I don't own a gun and have never used one, but I can imagine a situation that a father would want to know from week to week if a certain strength program is helping to develop velocity. Yes, I know it can be checked in the bullpen but game time is when velocity should be at its peak.

Use it for an inning and put it away-why should you care what other parents think-are they paying for the private coach/lessons. Besides, can't always count on a scout being present to see if your son's velocity has increased from 78 to 82.

Problem is that a radar gun is obvious and a stopwatch isn't.

Curious what the average age of his group is. Stu Miller's 1958 stats aren't relevant to modern baseball dominated by 6'5" 95-mph hurlers.

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We've used radar about twice a month as a training aid since age 9.Not at games, but indoors often during the winter to teach how to achieve 100% velocity when that skill (among many) is required. And no, there have been zero arm problems. NONE!

Kids learn how to throw fast AND how to throw their 100% fastball for a strike.

No one questions the ubiquitous use of watches at running events. But everyone knows where they rate in running. You'll never see a kids saying his mile time was low because the wrong brand of clock was used.

Radars presents a distraction mainly because most kids and parents grossly over-estimate pitching speed (go to any LL discussion group and see...it's ridiculous!).

It's almost impossible to use radar without insulting someone. But I bet the first Roman who brought an hour glass to the ancient Olympics faced the same problem.

micdsguy said
Curious what the average age of his group is. Stu Miller's 1958 stats aren't relevant to modern baseball dominated by 6'5" 95-mph hurlers.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/articles/fastest-pitcher-in-baseball.shtml

I offer the facts presented by Baseball Almanac about the relevance of pitchers. Seems that the pitchers who have more relevance to speed played many many years ago. Current versions, though good, would be considered Minor League material back then.

Teacherman

"Both lack the knowledge of very opinionated people...."

I am going to be polite and ask who are you to decide what I or anybody else who posts on this site knows and does not know?

I can tell you that one Will.

Many of these posting seem to assume that there are scouts at all or many of the HS games. In son's two years of playing at the Varsity level, I can count on one hand how many radar guns or scouts I've seen.

Our league is pretty weak even though it is Div I so there are not many scouts to be seen. In cases where there were scouts, they were there to see a position player, so no radar gun sightings.

I'm not encouraging or discouraging Dads to bring radar guns. Only expressing what I have seen during our son's games and not to make the assumption that there will be scouts there with guns.

Hopefully, this year will be different and there will be many gun sightings.

Radar is a wonderful training tool. I don't understand why so many people have trouble with it. I don't believe it is over used at all. Every coach should have one. I think it is silly to think that scouts evaluate pitchers only by their velocity.

It is great to be able to evaluate a SS throw to first. Or the velocity difference from a pitchers fastball to his change-up or curve. It is a great tool!

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It's almost impossible to use radar without insulting someone. But I bet the first Roman who brought an hour glass to the ancient Olympics faced the same problem.

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Dumb me! The ancient Olympics were in Greece, not Rome.

Timing and measuring devices allow athletes to capture achivement and compete against those they could never meet, whether far away or yet to be born.

Doug

I am with you-- Fungo is right on

But like a say if a Dad wants to use it he better have the info on all the pitchers in the game ready for me

I'm not against the use of radar guns, or measuring devices to monitor and accurately provide information at an appropriate time.

What is disturbing is the tendency by those in baseball to use the guns at earlier and earlier ages of boys with the implied impact that certain attained readings are required for them to play BB...and I consider that much of the reason that younger and younger boys are ending up having to have TJ surgery. I speak from experience where one of my son's closest friends has decided to quit BB because his rehab isn't going well and he can't get the ball past 73 mph.

A man doesn't fully grow until he is in his early 20's...what all this measuring implies to to a young boy is like treating them like a piece of meat. I believe it just serves to psychologically discourage rather than encourage...I may be wrong but I don't think so.

Young men should be allowed to learn the game, play it to find out whether it is something they really want to do that requires some measuement along the way. But that is so far out from youth BB that it amounts to misuse of its intent.

Pic,
I must commend you on this post!

Pic-

I also agree with you...good post.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Radar guns are not the problem the people using them are the problem.

Radar to most means....."Is he throwing 90?"......."Is he impressing everyone?"

To me it means......"Is he throwing what he's capable of"...."How far off is he?"...."What do we need to do to get him to his potential?"

A huge difference.

I guarantee you don't know a 2-5 mph differential by sight.

Therefore, you don't know whether a pitcher is throwing his velocity potential or not.

Therefore, you may not know when a pitcher needs mechanical work.

Of course, most of you think it's some kind of magic anyway.

A radar gun will tell you very important feedback information.

One thing I've learned from training with radar since age 9 is that speed improvement is often a matter of two steps forward, and one back.

It is frustrating to work with weights, run many miles, grow three inches taller, only to find your speed has dropped 3 mph in the short run.

But year to year, there's always been good improvement: 4-8 mph.

Teacherman,

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To me it means......"Is he throwing what he's capable of"...."How far off is he?"...."What do we need to do to get him to his potential?"

A huge difference.

I guarantee you don't know a 2-5 mph differential by sight.

Therefore, you don't know whether a pitcher is throwing his velocity potential or not.

Therefore, you may not know when a pitcher needs mechanical work.

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I agree with everything that you say in the above quote.

I use the gun as a training tool and to see if he is maintaining velocity. I did not need one my son's senior year there were plenty of scouts that had them and parents would tellme after every inning what my son's velocity was. Everybody wants to know and many parents would stand behind and watch.

Coach May

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Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Radar guns are not the problem the people using them are the problem.

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LOL

I choose not to take one to the game, but I don't judge others for wanting to. When I go to my son's games, I try to sit where I can see the team gun. I do that so I can help judge his mechanics. As much as you guys want to discout velocity training, velocity is still the benchmark for scouts. If you don't believe me, see how many right handed pitchers drafted are throwing below 90 in the top 10 rounds.Very few. Almost none out of hs.

I just don't understand coaches hating the gun irrationally. "Oh my god. he may overthrow now" Absurd. good players don't notice and the others shouldn't have it turned on them. Why a blanket rule. Just use common sense.

I also agree with bbscout and endorse fungo's post!

[QUOTEI...just don't understand coaches hating the gun irrationally. "Oh my god. he may overthrow now" Absurd...[/QUOTE]

A kid who is well trained and knows he's a few mph off will search his mechanics for the problem. He won't overthrow.

A kid who is not well trained may overthrow.

Guess what the training entails...........a radar gun.

A pitcher can certainly train without a radar gun--Gibson did it--- Feller did it--Stu Miller did it !!!

Training entails mechanics and not worrying about the velocity-- I would be more concerned about ball movement and location in combination with the mechanics--you cannot teach velocity but you can teach location and ball movement

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Originally posted by TRhit:
A pitcher can certainly train without a radar gun--Gibson did it--- Feller did it--Stu Miller did it !!!

Training entails mechanics and not worrying about the velocity-- I would be more concerned about ball movement and location in combination with the mechanics--you cannot teach velocity but you can teach location and ball movement

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You're still full of shoot. Don't let your opinion get in the way of facts.

Teacherman

Please do tell us the facts--you have not done so to date

Trhit

'You are full of shoot" since teacherman has proclaimed this you are officially in this exclusive club. Congratulations

Will

If you are in the club as well I feel honored--I am in good company

The problem is not with radar guns ..it's with Dad's using radar guns during a HS game. To me, that's a sign of an overinvolved Dad who takes his son's athletic performance too seriously. I would bet that it sends the same message to everyone else in the stands...and on the field.

TXMom

You say out loud what I was thinking. I have been at times accused of "parent bashing" so maybe if I said the same it would be seen as such.

What ever happened to the emphasis on location? The term used to be pitching is like buying real estate, location, location, location. Is this becoming a lost art because it doesn't seem like anyone even talks about it anymore?

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Originally posted by TxMom:
The problem is not with radar guns ..it's with Dad's using radar guns during a HS game. To me, that's a sign of an overinvolved Dad who takes his son's athletic performance too seriously. I would bet that it sends the same message to everyone else in the stands...and on the field.

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Can you say, "hit the nail on the head"? I've got a radar gun. I use my gun on my son. It is used during bullpen work ONLY and is never brought out during a game, HS or select. It is a great tool but you have to use it with the knowledge of baseball "etiquite".

Besides, during a game I can tell with my eyes if my son's velocity is off without any problem. I don't need a gun during a game. A gun is properly used to chart progress and to measure the effect of changes in grips, release points, arm angles, and footwork.

[QUOTE]

Therefore, you don't know whether a pitcher is throwing his velocity potential or not.

Therefore, you may not know when a pitcher needs mechanical work.

QUOTE]

You know when a pitcher needs mechanical work by observing his mechanics, not by using the radar gun. The radar gun measures velocity; it doesn't analyze mechanics.

I remember a dad a few years ago who bought a radar gun and started bringing it to the games. When he noticed that his son's velocity was not as high as the other three starting pitchers on the team the radar gun disappeared.....forever I think.

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... To me, that's a sign of an overinvolved Dad who takes his son's athletic performance too seriously. I would bet that it sends the same message to everyone else in the stands...and on the field.

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First of all the last thing a developing player should worry about is what other parents think about him.

Secondly, the radar gives information that you have no other way of getting.

Thirdly, the other parents don't know what they are talking about or they'd do the same thing if within their means.

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...You know when a pitcher needs mechanical work by observing his mechanics, not by using the radar gun. The radar gun measures velocity; it doesn't analyze mechanics.

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You go from this to......

...."ok Teacherman...am I suppose to believe if a pitcher is maintaining or increasing his velocity then his mechanics must be sound.

Which do you really mean?

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...I remember a dad a few years ago who bought a radar gun and started bringing it to the games. When he noticed that his son's velocity was not as high as the other three starting pitchers on the team the radar gun disappeared.....forever I think.

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Obviously, this dad was not using the gun for the purpose I recommend.

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...Besides, during a game I can tell with my eyes if my son's velocity is off without any problem. I don't need a gun during a game. A gun is properly used to chart progress and to measure the effect of changes in grips, release points, arm angles, and footwork.

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This statement can only be made by someone who has never stood by his son and watched the radar reading pitch by pitch.

Identical looking deliveries can vary by 5 mph.

Your eye has no clue.

Okay, Teacherman, though you didn't explain what you mean by your last comment, am supposed to believe that if a pitcher is maintaining velocity or increasing velocity then his mechanics must be sound?

By what you are saying, this is implied. Please correct me if I am wrong.

In my opinion, this tool can be extremely helpful for players at the high school level. Players at this level should get use to seeing them around wether it be a parent, college coach, or scout.

As a Coach if I find that someone with a radar gun is distracting myself or my players, then I'm not doing my job. A coaches focus is on the game, on the field, not in the stands.

Using a radar gun on players prior to high school, in my opinion, is dangerous, unfounded, and very intimidating. The primary focus should be on proper mechanics, learning to throw correctly, and keeping it simple.

If more time was spent on proper mechanics at an early age, this would most likely eliminate allot of arm injuries. Between the ages of 10 through 16, and some as late as 18, growth plates have not fused yet. Not warming up properly and trying to throw beyond your means at an early age is simply dangerous.

I attended a clinic years ago where Tom Seaver gave a talk on pitching. the last time i checked he won 300 plus games in the major leagues and is in the hall of Fame. So I think his "credentials" on talking about pitching are solid. he said the most important thing in pitching are location movement and velocity. he also emphasized they came in that order.

Will,

We have all known and watched some players get away with location and velocity without much movement. However, (with a few exceptions) Junk ball throwers (slow, location with wicked movement) usually or eventually get found out within a few innings. Again, there are a few exceptions.

MICDSGUY


As we say down south, "you a funny guy,.....hour glass, Greeks, yep funny guy."

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location, movement and velocity

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When they make a radar that measures all three (they will some day) I'll be the first to buy one. Current models only show speed which is useful info by itself.

Note that radar also shows another quality, pitching endurance.

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To me, that's a sign of an overinvolved Dad who takes his son's athletic performance too seriously.

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What if the pitcher--a savvy kid--wants this info, not the parent? It's not like the pitcher can gun himself. Or would you call him an overinvolved player?

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When [dad] noticed that his son's velocity was not as high as the other three starting pitchers on the team the radar gun disappeared

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If we invented a gun that could measure location, movement, AND speed, parents of bad pitchers would still object to them. True?

I just can't justify spending $900 for a quality radar gun that I might only have a real need to use a couple times a year. For velocity, between showcases, tournaments, and the High School's own gun, I can usually get the occassional reference check on flat velocity by just looking over someone else's shoulder (i.e., scouts) unobtrusively for a few pitches or simply asking politely. His club coach also works in the pen with him, and will occasionally check his velocity with a gun in the pen just to validate whether some fine-tuning of mechanics is having the expected effect, but not to try and get him to throw harder.

For a training tool, I simply videotape my son's outings on the mound, and I do so as unobtrusively as possible. I'll usually set up the video camera behind the backstop on a tripod well before game time, usually next to one of the backstop posts so it's mostly hidden from view ... sometimes off to one side or the other depending upon the field. Then I walk away and just let it run. I don't want to be a distraction by standing behind the backstop and I don't want it to pick up any audio of my voice. I'll just sit down the baseline a ways where I can cheer.

I then use video editing software to cut out all the dead time so I can get 4-5 innings down to about 8-9 minutes of running time. He likes to review these himself to look at his mechanics, control, how certain pitches worked against certain types of batters, etc. He also likes to analyze his offensive at-bats with the same video ... which I'll break out into a separate 'hitting' video from the same tape using the editing software. He usually just knows if he's "strokin' it" or feeling a little 'off' ... the video just helps him confirm what he's already feeling so he can make minor adjustments ... head, hand loading, lower body spin, etc. ... when he's working in the cage.

Let me make a suggestion. At the next booster club meeting those parents wanting radar guns at high school games and practices, make a motion that the booster club purchase a radar gun. Our high school had one. That way every parent can observe their son's speed, or lack of, and take appropriate action. Problem solved. An added feature...during the off season you can borrow the teams radar gun, hide behind the garbage can and monitor your son’s speed as he pulls in the driveway.
Fungo

About 25 to 30 years ago(not sure exactly) I remember people(including myself) making
comments about the few "priviledged" snobs that had cellular phones-BIG ones that you
carried in a black leather bag and some that were installed in their expensive Caddies and
Mercedes. Comments like "What a show-off, why can't they use a pay phone like the rest of us?" or "I just don't think it's necessary to have one of those, if it's important enough
to make a call they should've thought of that before they got in their car!"

Boy, have times changed! I'll bet everyone on this website has at least one cellphone and
CAN'T live without it.

Bottom line is that if Stalkers cost $50 bucks we'd all have one-at least all the pitchers'
parents-and there would be so many microwaves flying around at HS games you wouldn't need
to grill the hot dogs in the concession stand-just hold 'em up.

Tell you what, if it's not important to know the velocity that your son is throwing MLB
and Colleges sure are wasting a lot of money. Oh yea, If you only need to radar your son
in the bullpen then the same should apply to scouts as well--no need to use it during the game if you got the bullpen, right?

Come on folks, lighten up. If technology comes out we use it, why should one group have the
right to use the gun during the game and not another. Think about it.

Why don't we talk about cell phones at kids baseball games?

Fungo, Good point-Have the gun on all the time and if a parent(or anyone) wants to know it's there for all to see. Just like at Wilmington-
no secrets.

Fungo ...
LOL! That was good!
I honestly don't know why I keep posting on this topic other than it's hit a nerve. I can't help but think that some people are missing the point.

IMHO when Dads become too involved in their son's performance, it can mess up their son's play. I know that most Dads mean well and truely enjoy the interaction with their sons, but at some point they need to back off. I've seen so many kids with talent fall apart in game situations due to an unsuspecting Dad's continued input regarding performance. Quite simply, they put too much information in their kid's head and it messes up his ability to focus and perform.
Several years ago BeenthereIL, of all people, wrote a great post about a mother's role in the stands. For years I had it posted on my file cabinet and only recently lost it. It basically said that high school boys look to their mothers to fill their natural need for support and encouragement...not for a critique on their performance.

I would argue that they need the same from their Dads.

I guess all father/son relationships are identical.

Here that Scout? Stop helping your son.

Teacherman...
Help your son by developing his character, self-discipline, and respect for those involved in the game. He will need those "tools" more than anything to make it to the "next level."

I give all the ladies a pass on this site.

But if you want to get into it lets go.....

How about you help us by staying out of something about which you know little or nothing.

Don't dish if you can't take.

A lot of judgements being thrown around here. imo

If you don't want to take one don't. If you do, go ahead. Why would anyone care. A lot of people here are quick to judge others for not thinking like they do.

I was my son's pitching coach for the last 2 years of hs. If I want to take a gun and chart his pitches in order to do a better job with the info I get, what do you guys care? I happen to prefer to watch the game than chart, but it is a legit activity. Letting your perceptions of others get in the way and judging others is your problem, not mine.

Teacherman

Telling anybody to stay out of something they little or nothing is just rude. Several of other posters including myself have been told our knowledge is lacking. This site was designed to exchange ideas. Agreeing or disagreeing is part of that exchange. However your know it all attitude is abrasive and annoying. I am being polite.

Sometimes a view from a different angle can shed some new light on a subject. It did for me.

TxMom, group hug! I love you!

Right back at ya, Biggie!

TXMOM

I for one have no problem with baseball ladies getting into the fray--my wife knows as much if not more tha I do about the game-

WE LEARN FROM EACH OTHER !!

That's no surprise.

Thanks, TR!

TxMom

When you see a dad with a radar gun you see all that's bad.

When I see a dad with a radar gun I see BigHit helping his son become a better pitcher.

It's your choice.

I saw BigHit at many games ...and never saw him with a radar gun.

A few years ago at the T1 North showcase a couple of obnoxious dads had their "guns" onsite and making under the breath comments on many players. It was rude. The next day my wife and friend sat behind them with their hairdryers. When these guys pointed the wifes pointed and did they get a laugh. The guys tried to move and they were told they were being shadowed until the gun went away. A sight to behold.

I can see where guns can be a useful tool. I would find it interesting to collect data from not only my kid but any other on his tean that would like to see their progress charted. You just have to remember that you are not looking at speed but the relationship between innings, velocity, and specific pitches. This is the type of knowledge that a pitcher needs to understand in order to improve.

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I would find it interesting to collect data from not only my kid but any other on his tean that would like to see their progress charted. You just have to remember that you are not looking at speed but the relationship between innings, velocity, and specific pitches. This is the type of knowledge that a pitcher needs to understand in order to improve.

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Professional and college coaches feel that charting with a gun helps their guys improve. I would think the same would apply in high school.

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Originally posted by grateful:
Okay, Teacherman, though you didn't explain what you mean by your last comment, am supposed to believe that if a pitcher is maintaining velocity or increasing velocity then his mechanics must be sound?

By what you are saying, this is implied. Please correct me if I am wrong.

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Teacherman, I have been hoping you could answer the above question for me. Either you did not read it originally, or you just can't think of an answer (put down) just yet.

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Originally posted by Teacherman:

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...Besides, during a game I can tell with my eyes if my son's velocity is off without any problem. I don't need a gun during a game. A gun is properly used to chart progress and to measure the effect of changes in grips, release points, arm angles, and footwork.

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This statement can only be made by someone who has never stood by his son and watched the radar reading pitch by pitch.

Identical looking deliveries can vary by 5 mph.

Your eye has no clue.

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Thanks for your opinion about my abilities but I will disagree with you. If I was a SCOUT then I would definitely have a gun - but I have been watching this kid pitch for 10 years and I do not need or want a gun to spot problems in a GAME. If there are problems in a GAME believe me they are not velocity related. Game problems almost always revolve around not being able to spot a fastball or not being able to throw a certain pitch - mechanical in nature.

Remember, I am not SCOUTING my son I am observing him. Big difference.

1. It seems that most everyone would agree that major league teams and college teams are using guns so they must feel there is some positive purpose.

2. Most of us if given a chance would from time-to-time peek over at a scout’s gun to see what a high schooler is throwing if given the chance so it could be just a case of “Radar gun envy”.

The problem seems to come down to whether we want to be seen holding one and most of us wouldn’t especially in ballparks where the ladies were known to follow you around with hair dryers.

It comes down to us needing to find a way to get the data without holding the weapon personally. Perhaps a solution might be to buy the high school team a gun with the understanding that the readings will be secretly supplied.

That way the team can take advantage of the same tool colleges and pros use and the rest of us can satisfy our thirst for data. We all win, plus the ladies don’t need to drag their hair dryers to the game.

If my son ever saw me with a radar gun behind the backstop, he would probably charge off the mound, take it away from me and hurt me with it. I have come in contact with many parents through the years who would, in conversation, always leak out the fact that their 10 year old son through a 60 mph fastball, and I always wondered how they knew that. It never occurred to me that parents would buy a gun and measure their kid's speed during a game.

First of all, I'm indifferent as to dads/moms/uncles having radar guns at a ball game. To each his own.

However, having had the good fortune of having many excellent pitchers play for my summer teams over the years it never ceases to amaze me how many rumors and mistruths are spread about certain pitchers supposedly related to a dad/mom/uncle's radar gun readings.

Have a current pitcher that, according to more than one poster on this website (and others), supposedly brings it around 93-94 or better. I find that odd as I've never seen him break 90 mph.

Don't let your lack of training knowledge keep you from stating your opinion. I realize you're entitled to it whether right or wrong.

Again, to a father and son who are "in training", if you will, the radar gun is necessary to see if the mechanics are right.

Most of you must not realize that there are specific mechanical adjustments that can make up to a 5 mph difference. And, the thrower, if training, and if the mechanic is new, doesn't know other than by the radar reading, if he's executing properly. The gun will tell you. You can not tell any other way. In fact, your body will lie to you at times. The throws that feel "right" may not be and the ones that feel "wrong" or "different" might be right. The reason is "right" and "wrong" is ususally judged by feel. What feels right is usually what you're used to not what is right. The new mechanic may feel "wrong" when first using it. You need the feedback from the gun to know for sure.

And, as I said before, you can not tell, by sight, a 5 mph difference.

Now, many of you will jump up and say.......but movment this........or.......deception that. OK, fine. We like movement. And we like deception. But what if we have those and are working on velocity????

Our goal is not to say "look at us we throw 90". Which is exactly what most of you think when you see a dad with a gun. We simply want the reading to compare to what it should be. What we know he's capbale of.

BTW, we're a father/son team that has taken on a goal to throw 80+ mph. Our best to date is 78. We are not going to play DI or make a living from it. Can we have our project, train, test with radar, train some more, test some more and learn from the experience???

It's a fun project that we have a lot of fun (and frustration) doing. Something we have a common interest in. Something we can do together. We're not in the category you are imagining as far as showing off what we can do. We simply want to be the best we can be. In fact, we're the one you snicker at......you know what you say......."why would they work so hard at this, he doesn't have a chance?" But we could care less what you think.

I will never apologize for that nor will I put any weight into what others think of us for using a gun at a game.

Grateful

Your question has been answered at least 2 or 3 times.

Not my fault you don't get it.

Teacherman,
I can tell that you're a Dad who enjoys baseball and loves sharing that with your son. There's nothing wrong with that. Your son is lucky to have someone who cares enough about him to share in his interests.

The only thing that raises a red flag IMO is when you refer his goals as your goals...his performance as your performance.
"We're a father/son team that has taken on a goal to throw 80+ mph. Our best to date is 78."

In my experience that's the beginning of a baseball relationship that many Dads look back on and regret.

They are OUR goals and so I called them that. Maybe because I'm the trainer. If I was sending him to an instructor I **** well hope it's the instructors goal also.

Your interpretation that they aren't his goals as well is unfounded.........but you still feel it necessary to suggest it. Why is that?

Just what does a goal of 80 mph suggest. Won't get him to pros......won't get him to college without some exceptional stuff.....I think you're nose is in the way of your mind.

Why don't you give me 2 or 3 details about your son so I can make a determination about what type of mother you are?

All of this to say you obviously don't know what you're talking about so why hang out here.

I've enjoyed talking with you and the other guys, but I have to go back to the kitchen where I belong ...almost time for dinner.

You're free to take or leave any advice that I've offered. No hard feelings.

Teacherman,

I guess you don't know who TXMom is. TXMom is one of the most respected baseballpeople (notice I didn't say mom or dad) in our community (both here at HSBaseballweb as well as the community in which she lives)

You see TXMom has 2 sons, both were drafted and both are humble, talented and boys we would all be proud to call our own. Both sons are the way they are because of their supportive, loving and very involved parents.

So, in other words, she speaks from experience, knowledge, passion and most of all from the heart. I have had the pleasure of knowing her personally, she was also my son's elem. school teacher, she is a fellow baseball mom and I can tell you she is someone I admire and aspire to be like. The thing I admire the most about her is that you could run into her on the street and she will always meet you with a smile, a kind word and you would never know how successful her boys are because she is proud of their accomplishments but doesn't "Live" their accomplishments that is for them to do.

Her son's are the best young men I have seen come out of our community. Besides their talent on the baseball field they continue to give back to the community (because they were brought up that way). In fact this past weekend her oldest, the 3rd round draft pick, was back home visiting his family and he stopped up at the HS, my son along w/2 other underclassman were at the cages hitting. He doesn't even know my son (as he is much older than he is) and he spent an hour throwing BP to all 3 of them. What a thrill for each of them. And guess what, he never told them about the Giants he was just a local alumni coming to workout (of course my son knew who he was because of his mom).

Teacherman, take a moment and teach yourself something, it isn't just a man's world out there and if a women has some ideas and some insight she might just know a bit more than you do and it might be that it was learned the same way you learned what you know and it was on the field raising son's that love the game.

NOT FOR TEACHERMAN BUT IN REGARDS TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION AND POST: And in regards to radar no radar, if your son needs it as a tool to evaluate and train then use it, but if you are using it to bring attention to your son or yourself-then what a shame. (edited for clarification and not viewed as a personal remark)

OLDBAT NEVER

Thank you for jumping in as you did-- I had the pleasure of meeting TXMOM a few years back at ASU and it was extreme my pleasure to do so.

TXMOM --if you work as well in the kitchen as you do sitting and watching baseball AND UNDERSTANDING THE GAME I am coming to Texas for dinner.

And I am sure you one of the best cooks in the Texas Region

TRhit

I just hate when shots are taken w/out knowledge, esp. when they are at good people like TXMom.

By the way is that ASU as in Arizona or Arkansas? I am a Sun Devil and of course we all know what kind of baseball school that is. I spent my 4 years there attending many a baseball game.

My bad. I didn't realize having two very good players as sons gave her the right to determine that my relationship with my son was not good.

quote:

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...but if you are using it to bring attention to your son or yourself-then what a shame.

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Either you refuse to read or don't comprehend very well. 78 mph doesn't bring much attention to us.

Teacherman,

My post was in response to your question:

quote:

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Why don't you give me 2 or 3 details about your son so I can make a determination about what type of mother you are?

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Answer is: SHE IS A **** GOOD MOTHER.

And the statement about bringing attention was meant as a GENERIC statement to the attent of the original post I apologize it should have been under a separate heading.. Not personal.

I quoted you already so all can see it. Your post went further than telling me she is a good mother. You just needed to get a few jabs in. No big deal.

Not personal eh?

You state...

Teacherman...

....and in regards to radar or no radar, if YOUR son needs it.......or if YOU are using it to bring attention....

Is that generic in Texas??????

I think I'll start bringing a stopwatch to every game and start a chart of all his home to first times. And was the crack about women not knowing baseball for real or flaming purposes? Geez, I better get out of the batting cage and back to the kitchen. I do however put on all the catchers gear so I don't get killed, pretty funny sight.

Maybe we need to focus on Bourban Balls instead of baseball balls.

quote:

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...And was the crack about women not knowing baseball for real or flaming purposes?....

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Please quote me........if you can find those exact words. Don't twist the truth in the process of defending your friends.

Flame it on centerfield.

Teacherman,
I was in the midst of a post and didn't want to have to go out and repost so if you notice above I have changed the wording to get my original attent out.

You know us women,,,,,,,,,,when we get a bee in our bonnet we just go a little crazy, must be PMS.

What's a bourbon ball?

Is it attent in Texas?

Why not edit the original..........does it help flame your cause?

They are your words.......no paraphrasing here.

Teacherman:

Here is your quote:

quote:

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How about you help us by staying out of something about which you know little or nothing.

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Here ya go teach

quote:

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I give all the ladies a pass on this site.

But if you want to get into it lets go.....

How about you help us by staying out of something about which you know little or nothing.

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quote:

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...And was the crack about women not knowing baseball for real or flaming purposes?

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Still looking for what I'm accused of saying.

Is the fact that the poster knows little about the use of radar for training the same as...

"a woman doesn't know baseball"?

oldbat - You know there's medication available to help you with your problem! I just sent you a PM.

If you read back teacherman I did edit the original. Maybe we should all go have a few bourban balls and chill out.

Will a bourbon ball warm me up, it's well below zero here.

I guess its the bourbon balls that explain the attent of the posts.

Teacherman, just curious....say you are at your son's high school game and you notice that he is 5mph off his fastball. Do you enter the playing field between innings and meet with him in th dugout to council him our his mechanics? How do you correct the problems in the middle of the game? If you do meet with your son between innings what would happen if all 9 dads met with their sons between innings in the dugout?

You sound like a nightmare parent to me and your references to "our" goals is creepy. Your playing days are over (if you had any).

Crawdad

Keep leaping to conclusions. You may hit on something smart once in a while.

I not only use radar, I video and we go over the video at night and compare the mechanics we see to the velocity the radar shows. Try it sometime.

You fit in real nice with these etiquette people.

Next

Cntrfieldsmom:
It is cold down here as well, doesn't feel much like baseball weather, oops I mean "Betty Crocker Bake Off" weather........

Anyway, my cyberpoint has been made, and I am glad this is only cybertalk and I am not having to spend my bleacher time on this topic.

Lafmom: keep those cards and letters coming you are the best and you really helped me out w/my son and he feels great and is ready to have a great season.

Teacherman -
OK. I've held back long enough.

No one here knows what kind of dad you are. I'm sure you love your son very much. However, the picture you present from your posts is one of an overcontrolling dad living his dreams through his son. I hope this isn't true. I hope your son is playing the game because he loves the game. I hope you are watching him because you love watching him play. Leave the gun at home and "watch". Let the coach teach.

Of course, I am just a mom!

Old Bat (the friend I'm defending )
Yep, I'm making home made pasta and sewing a quilt, jes like iz possed to be for us women folk. I can bring home the bacon and fry it up in a pan too.

Intent, intent, intent, intent.....

W/out spellcheck I am sunk......thank goodness for teachers.

No you didn't hold long enough.

You exposed your ignorance as well.

Gotta go. Have to take my daughter to a free throw contest. Yes, I taught her that. Yes, we have goals. No, I don't use radar.

That's just the way it is at our house.

I'll answer all replies later. Keep it coming ladies. You make more sense than TR ever has.

lafmom, you have a pm

Teacherman, The difference in you and I sir is that I don't profess to know everything. It's obvious what posters know and what they don't know. I'm sorry that you find me "ignorant". I can assure that is not the case. Good luck to you!

My last thought is that it takes someone that has a true love of the sport whether that is Dad, Mom, Grandpa whomever to be our son's true advocate. And because of that love we are very passionate and committed to this sport.

Does it matter if we radar or not? Does it matter if we attend practices or not? What matters is that we support our son's 100% and that we let them play the game w/our blessing and our love.

What knowlege/experience we had before they stepped on the field is ours to share with them and what knowledge/experience we gained because they stepped on the field will be what we will look back in the years to come as a wonderful memory.

Let THEM live the dream and let us smile through the dream.

And BTW cyberslams only hurt my computer keyboard.

Oldbat - beautifully said!

It seems we are adding some great people to the "ignorant" group--I am glad I am in this group

That being the case I wish to remain ignorant and not be as "all knowing" as Teacherman

Crawdad,

You said this regarding Teacherman.

quote:

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Teacherman, just curious....say you are at your son's high school game and you notice that he is 5mph off his fastball. Do you enter the playing field between innings and meet with him in th dugout to council him our his mechanics? How do you correct the problems in the middle of the game? If you do meet with your son between innings what would happen if all 9 dads met with their sons between innings in the dugout?

You sound like a nightmare parent to me and your references to "our" goals is creepy. Your playing days are over (if you had any).

---

Very similar to a post you made about me earlier in the Texas forum when I disagreed with you. A pattern is developing by you when disagreeing with someone.

quote:

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Bighit, it is obvious by your 1500+ posts that you are consumed by your son's baseball career. I am also impressed by how you have the time to critque mine and others posts line by line. Very impressive.

From reading alot of your posts, you seem like the typical baseball parent who was never a baseball PLAYER. Maybe I'm wrong on that but I doubt it.

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I have a problem with guys like you making statements about me as a parent or never being a player when you have no idea what you are talking about. I have had a problem with this thread in particular by people suggesting bad parenting and interferring parents because someone uses a radar gun. The wolfpack mentality is in full force here. You are just as bad as Teacherman.

I am not defending Teacherman's abrasive nature here, but really people calm down. Why do so many of you care if someone radar's their kid. Who here has not seen a radar gun and not tried to peek. Or asked if someon saw the reading or had another parent tell you the reading.

The reality is there are reasons to use a gun as a training tool. If someone chooses to do it then fine. What do you care? The pros chart and measure every pitch to lookm for consistency of fb, cb. change, slider, etc. They want to know if the velocity varies to help them determine if there is a need to adjust mechanics and release point. You don't want a slider varying 6 mph per pitch. it indicates a problem. And no you cannot tell byn sight pitch to pitch what the velocity is. A very few rare scouts can do that accurately. Anybody that says so is kidding themselves.

Some hs's chart every pitch for the same reason as a tool. If people don't like it and it offends them, then they just need to live and let live and stop judging everybody else.

The blatant attacks and name calling on this thread is disgusting. Can't wit for the season to start so some of you will lighten up. Read moc!'s post of Dad04's post. Commmon sense folks.

This thread ought to be closed.