monstor, this should give you a pretty good idea of where individual teams stand in the pecking order:
http://www.boydsworld.com/base.../rpi/currentrpi.html
Bump...just wanted to update/clarify on a few things as well as pose some additional questions:
- Starting to get quite a few D3 offers, but no D1 offers yet (only been to one showcase, which was Headfirst, where I registered in the low 80s). How should I feel about D1 camp invites...Are they almost all automated or do they express even slight interest?
- I think I'm done growing vertically (6'0") but I still have room to fill out (160 LBs). I have a workout regimen focusing on legs and core (and a little bit of shoulders) and a protein-focused diet...What's a realistic weight I can expect by June 2010 if I maintain this lifestyle throughout? Oh, and will my height hinder my recruitability?
- That list of D1 schools posted by infield seems to show most Ivies as mid/low D1 programs...Is that a correct assessment? And how much does Ivy recruiting change once they have some concrete scores to look at (even if it is just the PSAT, which I will take in October)?
- I noticed that many of my posts in the past have been rather difficult to answer, as even I was unsure of my abilities then. A few months later and I'm already noticing a significant velocity increase since August as a result of a few mechanical changes (can't tell exactly how much velocity gain - I don't own a radar gun!) as well as the sudden development of a dipping change-up. Needless to say I'm starting to feel a lot more confident about my pitching ability and from now on my posts will be a lot less, well, cryptic.
I apologize for the lengthy nature of my posts and that some of the questions I have posed have probably been vaguely touched upon over the course of this thread before. But even just an answer/lead into discussion regarding any one of my questions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
- Starting to get quite a few D3 offers, but no D1 offers yet (only been to one showcase, which was Headfirst, where I registered in the low 80s). How should I feel about D1 camp invites...Are they almost all automated or do they express even slight interest?
- I think I'm done growing vertically (6'0") but I still have room to fill out (160 LBs). I have a workout regimen focusing on legs and core (and a little bit of shoulders) and a protein-focused diet...What's a realistic weight I can expect by June 2010 if I maintain this lifestyle throughout? Oh, and will my height hinder my recruitability?
- That list of D1 schools posted by infield seems to show most Ivies as mid/low D1 programs...Is that a correct assessment? And how much does Ivy recruiting change once they have some concrete scores to look at (even if it is just the PSAT, which I will take in October)?
- I noticed that many of my posts in the past have been rather difficult to answer, as even I was unsure of my abilities then. A few months later and I'm already noticing a significant velocity increase since August as a result of a few mechanical changes (can't tell exactly how much velocity gain - I don't own a radar gun!) as well as the sudden development of a dipping change-up. Needless to say I'm starting to feel a lot more confident about my pitching ability and from now on my posts will be a lot less, well, cryptic.
I apologize for the lengthy nature of my posts and that some of the questions I have posed have probably been vaguely touched upon over the course of this thread before. But even just an answer/lead into discussion regarding any one of my questions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Getting offers from D3's before your junior year?
Can't affect your height, so who cares.
An Ivy coach (in another sport) told me that his biggest recruiting mistake his first year was pursuing recruits who weren't admittable.
I would think your 80s plus velocity and your (probably correctly) expected high scores will get your candidacy a some attention..the rest is up to you to continue improving.
Just remember....Young and Ohlendorf are recent pitchers from Princeton. Darling came out of Yale. Probably 2/3 of every Ivy baseball roster could have gone to a non-top-15 D1 with a scholarship of some sort.
Here are the High School writeups from the three lhp's on Harvards roster as an example. I encourage you to read the other Ivy rosters to develop a frame of reference.
Attended Corona Del Mar High School ... Earned three letters in baseball as a pitcher ... Two-time Pacific Coast League All-Star ... 2006 Orange County North-South All-Star game participant ... 2006 Los Angeles Times Newport-Mesa Dream Team ... Helped team to a pair of conference championships and one CIF title ... Posted a 2.13 career earned run average with a 1.80 mark as a senior ... Holds school records for career strikeouts with 179 and season strikeouts with 98 as a senior (58 innings) ... Led PCL in strikeouts twice
Four-year letterwinner in both baseball and basketball at Moeller High School ... All-league and all-city in baseball ... Four-year member of conference championship team in basketball and member of 2007 state championship team ... Team posted an 85-5 record ... Three conference titles in baseball as well while advancing to state final four as a senior ... Tied school records with seven triples, 44 hits and a 0.89 ERA as a senior
Hails from Ambler, Pa. and attended Upper Dublin HS where he was a four-year starter as a pitcher and first baseman ... Was a two-time First Team pitcher and Second Team first baseman as a junior and senior in the Suburban One American Conference ... Named team MVP during both those seasons ..
Ivy's often play "lower" than their "talent level" because they don't put as much time into it as the CWS-driven southern schools. Be cautious about underestimating the level of competition as it relates to individual talent.
An Ivy coach (in another sport) told me that his biggest recruiting mistake his first year was pursuing recruits who weren't admittable.
I would think your 80s plus velocity and your (probably correctly) expected high scores will get your candidacy a some attention..the rest is up to you to continue improving.
Just remember....Young and Ohlendorf are recent pitchers from Princeton. Darling came out of Yale. Probably 2/3 of every Ivy baseball roster could have gone to a non-top-15 D1 with a scholarship of some sort.
Here are the High School writeups from the three lhp's on Harvards roster as an example. I encourage you to read the other Ivy rosters to develop a frame of reference.
Attended Corona Del Mar High School ... Earned three letters in baseball as a pitcher ... Two-time Pacific Coast League All-Star ... 2006 Orange County North-South All-Star game participant ... 2006 Los Angeles Times Newport-Mesa Dream Team ... Helped team to a pair of conference championships and one CIF title ... Posted a 2.13 career earned run average with a 1.80 mark as a senior ... Holds school records for career strikeouts with 179 and season strikeouts with 98 as a senior (58 innings) ... Led PCL in strikeouts twice
Four-year letterwinner in both baseball and basketball at Moeller High School ... All-league and all-city in baseball ... Four-year member of conference championship team in basketball and member of 2007 state championship team ... Team posted an 85-5 record ... Three conference titles in baseball as well while advancing to state final four as a senior ... Tied school records with seven triples, 44 hits and a 0.89 ERA as a senior
Hails from Ambler, Pa. and attended Upper Dublin HS where he was a four-year starter as a pitcher and first baseman ... Was a two-time First Team pitcher and Second Team first baseman as a junior and senior in the Suburban One American Conference ... Named team MVP during both those seasons ..
Ivy's often play "lower" than their "talent level" because they don't put as much time into it as the CWS-driven southern schools. Be cautious about underestimating the level of competition as it relates to individual talent.
quote:Originally posted by monstor344:
B How should I feel about D1 camp invites...Are they almost all automated or do they express even slight interest?
Their #1 interest is in your ability to pay for the camp.
Yes, college camps are moneymakers for the baseball programs but if you can afford it and it's really a school you might want to attend then it's a good way to get to know the coaches a little bit (provided they'll be instructing). My son attended several through the years and was definitely able to cross one school off his list due to the "atmosphere" of the team and coaches. As we've learned more about the school my son was right, it would not have been a good fit academically and athletically.
So, choose carefully and don't waste money on a camp if you're not interested in attending that school.
So, choose carefully and don't waste money on a camp if you're not interested in attending that school.
Monstor, the best way to achieve your potential velocity would be to get started in a long tossing program ASAP. Bum's son is a smaller lefty that has achieved the goal of a major D1 school. He attributes his gain in velocity to long tossing.
Long tossing doesn't guarantee that you would throw 90 but it will help you achieve your maximum velocity. You might be able to gain that critical 4-5 extra mph.
Long tossing doesn't guarantee that you would throw 90 but it will help you achieve your maximum velocity. You might be able to gain that critical 4-5 extra mph.
quote:Monstor, the best way to achieve your potential velocity would be to get started in a long tossing program ASAP. Bum's son is a smaller lefty that has achieved the goal of a major D1 school. He attributes his gain in velocity to long tossing.
Yes; I should have mentioned that I've begun long-tossing frequently, but thanks. How big was his son, and would I be considered a "smaller lefty"?
At 160 going into your junior year, you should be able to add twenty pounds before you step on the field in college. But at 180, you'd be no larger than average at many places and clearly below at others.
Height is a interesting matter.
1. People give their height wearing 1" shoes, and then round up to the next inch.
If you are 6' barefoot, consider yourself to be 6foot 1 1/2. But more likely you are 5'10 1/2 to 3/4.
I wouldn't worry about height. You cannot control it. Worry about performance. I stood next to John Franco at a showcase some years back and he can't have been more than 5'9" barefoot. He was listed at 5 10
On most of the rosters you can subtract 1 -1 1/2 inches to get to true barefoot height. I can't be sure, but that's my guess.
Height is a interesting matter.
1. People give their height wearing 1" shoes, and then round up to the next inch.
If you are 6' barefoot, consider yourself to be 6foot 1 1/2. But more likely you are 5'10 1/2 to 3/4.
I wouldn't worry about height. You cannot control it. Worry about performance. I stood next to John Franco at a showcase some years back and he can't have been more than 5'9" barefoot. He was listed at 5 10
On most of the rosters you can subtract 1 -1 1/2 inches to get to true barefoot height. I can't be sure, but that's my guess.
I am actually 6'0" barefoot; not sure about my height with shoes on. And how much velocity gain does 20 pounds generally mean? Just to make it clear, I am not a muscular 160 pounds; does that mean I have more upside going forward if I gain 20 pounds with lots of muscle mass?
Monstor, Bum's son is listed at 5'08/180 on his college website.
It's hard to say about velocity. I've seen some pitchers stop dead in their velocity tracks around soph year in HS. Another pitcher I know progressed from 68-76-80-84-90+ over five consecutive years.
You just don't know until you go out and try, and do the right kind of work. I believe in tubing, weighted balls (minimal - just a light dusting) and long toss.
You just don't know until you go out and try, and do the right kind of work. I believe in tubing, weighted balls (minimal - just a light dusting) and long toss.
Lad's dad.. Bum, Jr. is really 5'9" lol. Believe it or not he now weighs 192 lbs and is cut and doesn't even look stocky. Size has never held him back.. in fact considering his weight I don't think he's really "undersized". PG had him cruising 88-90 in the Summer, and Baseball America in the low 90's. What this means, I don't know, but if you long toss and have some ability size won't deter velocity, only your belief in size. In fact, sometimes I scratch my head when scouts mention his size.. he's already got pro velocity, so why worry about projection? But I understand they like the tall lanky kids that hope to throw hard someday.. 
BTW, to answer the original post question, I know one LHP kid, sub-6ft, who went D1.. and he consistently throws 80-81. It happens.
Bum
Yes it does happen--more than people think
Yes it does happen--more than people think
This is all interesting. My son is a left handed pitcher; was throwing at 82 at 15 & there were a lot of eyes, and began the spring of his JR year at 86. But he had very debilitating illness the spring of his JR year- (He lost 10 lbs of muscle) the most important time for a HS BB player who wants to play college.
He is just starting to throw 85, 86 again, and is topping out at 88.
His ball has lots of movement, and he has 3-4 really good pitches.
He's just turned 17; He's 6' 2 and is 198lbs,7% body fat; runs his 60 in 7.0 and isn't done growing yet; and (knock on wood) has never been injured or sore.
His fall ball team plays against JR Colleges, and College JV teams and he is striking people out, really has ever had only 1 earned run scored off of him- but yet the bites are mostly from DIII. The dI and DII schools invite him to come "for a 2nd look" but are very wishy washy..
They tell him they want him in the high 80's all of the time. After his illness, he was throwing 79. You'd think that going from 79 to 86 in 3 months would show great potential.
What gives?
He is just starting to throw 85, 86 again, and is topping out at 88.
His ball has lots of movement, and he has 3-4 really good pitches.
He's just turned 17; He's 6' 2 and is 198lbs,7% body fat; runs his 60 in 7.0 and isn't done growing yet; and (knock on wood) has never been injured or sore.
His fall ball team plays against JR Colleges, and College JV teams and he is striking people out, really has ever had only 1 earned run scored off of him- but yet the bites are mostly from DIII. The dI and DII schools invite him to come "for a 2nd look" but are very wishy washy..
They tell him they want him in the high 80's all of the time. After his illness, he was throwing 79. You'd think that going from 79 to 86 in 3 months would show great potential.
What gives?
Pappi, there could be two problems. First, it could just be a marketing problem.. getting his name out there. Start emailing some D1's perhaps attend a few camps this Winter. PG has some good Winter stuff too--been there, done that--so you could consider that as well.
The second problem could be what these coaches see. Any left consistently hitting 85-86 with good command and good stuff is going to get solid offers right away. I'm talking cruising speed. If your son is usually in the low 80's, or struggles with his command or offspeed pitches, that could be the reason as well. Remember, college coaches get paid to win now.
Good luck to your kid in finding the right fit!
The second problem could be what these coaches see. Any left consistently hitting 85-86 with good command and good stuff is going to get solid offers right away. I'm talking cruising speed. If your son is usually in the low 80's, or struggles with his command or offspeed pitches, that could be the reason as well. Remember, college coaches get paid to win now.
Good luck to your kid in finding the right fit!
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
If you are a "pitcher" with control you can pitch at any college level
Exactly. You would be surprised at number of all-conference LHP's who work in the low 80's. If you can nibble low and throw nothing straight, you can win for any program.
Dad04, while I agree that there are some LHP's that cruise low-80's with success at the D1 level, that is the exception and not the rule. The rule is closer to 85-87. If the ultimate goal is to pitch professionally then even 85-87 is not good enough. For most kids (LHP's in the low-80's) a smaller college is a better option. In this case, pick the college for academics and not baseball.
We'll agree to disagree because I don't think there is a rule in college, outside the top 10 to 20 teams. There are so many "bad body" college baseball players who don't fit a mold, but are very successful in college. Command of "stuff" trumps velocity all day long.
The winningest Ragin Cajun pitcher ever never threw over 85....was a LHP. He got one scholly offer and took it. I saw lots of kids like him, maybe not as successful, but so many threw harder with less success. It all depends on how straight a kid throws and how much heart he has, imvho. There are 293 D1 programs. Plenty of them could not beat the Sisters of the Blind.
We do agree academics trump baseball, though.
The winningest Ragin Cajun pitcher ever never threw over 85....was a LHP. He got one scholly offer and took it. I saw lots of kids like him, maybe not as successful, but so many threw harder with less success. It all depends on how straight a kid throws and how much heart he has, imvho. There are 293 D1 programs. Plenty of them could not beat the Sisters of the Blind.
We do agree academics trump baseball, though.
RJ Swindle barely broke 80 mph. He has pitched in MLB.
The low velocity guys fly so far beneath the radar they are never talked about at any level. Announcers never say the No. 1 starter doesn't hit 85 on the gun. Alot of them don't and don't get the credit until they have a bunch of wins. They constantly have to prove they can pitch. Plenty do that. The hard throwers constantly have to prove they can't pitch. Plenty do that also.
Swindle had to adjust to every level of play. I remember watching him get lit up by the Gators on TV, thinking he was not going to sniff another start at Charleston Southern. The next time I saw him pitch was on TV pitching for the Phillies.
Swindle had to adjust to every level of play. I remember watching him get lit up by the Gators on TV, thinking he was not going to sniff another start at Charleston Southern. The next time I saw him pitch was on TV pitching for the Phillies.
The soft tossers have to be managed more than the hard throwers.
You are correct that soft tossers have to show they can pitch and are at a disadvantage because of the mind set of most coaches.
RJ was a great pitcher who had a coach (Murphy)who believed in him. Murphy was our 1st contact with CSU and part of the reason we looked at the school. Unfortunately he was let go before my son got there.
My son's 1st 2 years were great but not a lot of innings compared to pitchers under Murphy.
You are correct that soft tossers have to show they can pitch and are at a disadvantage because of the mind set of most coaches.
RJ was a great pitcher who had a coach (Murphy)who believed in him. Murphy was our 1st contact with CSU and part of the reason we looked at the school. Unfortunately he was let go before my son got there.
My son's 1st 2 years were great but not a lot of innings compared to pitchers under Murphy.
If great means eventually effective, I'll agree.
I think we might all agree that it is difficult to be effective or great, but unless you believe in yourself, you are done before you start.
I think we might all agree that it is difficult to be effective or great, but unless you believe in yourself, you are done before you start.
San Diego Padres 2009 Wade LeBlance 3-1 3.69 era 82 mph fb.
LeBlanc's last game of the season was against the SF Giants. MLB's Gameday lists the speed, as determined by multiple cameras, of each pitch. I only checked the first threee innings, but he hit 88 multiple times.
I bring this up because we posters here tend to mention the very best speeds that our players have shown. Conversely, we tend to notice the slowest speed from a pro.
I bring this up because we posters here tend to mention the very best speeds that our players have shown. Conversely, we tend to notice the slowest speed from a pro.
.
While it only takes one...hopefully YOU or yours....
There is a big difference between possible and probable, between common and rare, between frequent and few...and it is well worth knowing the difference beforehand....then proving them wrong.
Spud web at 5'5" showed us that it was possible to play successfully in the land of the giants...but he is not the norm.
.
While it only takes one...hopefully YOU or yours....
There is a big difference between possible and probable, between common and rare, between frequent and few...and it is well worth knowing the difference beforehand....then proving them wrong.
Spud web at 5'5" showed us that it was possible to play successfully in the land of the giants...but he is not the norm.
.
Might have to scroll down to see report. Leblanc is a good example of a finesse lefty. But he was definitely topping out at 86 as a jr in high school.
LeBlanc HS JR
LeBlanc HS JR
So if you are a LHP and cruise 83-84 and top out at 86 like this Leblanc guy what attributes and other pitches must you have to succeed or have the chance to succeed at a high level D1 program. Must your change and CB be plus pitches and your fastball better have great movement? Did the fact that he was 6' 3" and 175lbs help him with his rating as well? Had he been 5' 10" and 160lbs would he still have received an 8.5 pg rating? Just curious...
Well, obviously we graded him too low, the way things turned out.
It was a combination of body, projection, outstanding breaking ball, movement on the fastball, change speeds, command, ease of which he did things, arm action, three quality pitches and almost MLB ave. FB as only a junior in high school.
Each pitcher stands alone, but the 6-3/175 proportioned the way it was, sure didn't hurt. If people like to compare I could give a link or two of profiles on other successful LHPs who would be considered more finesse than power types.
It was a combination of body, projection, outstanding breaking ball, movement on the fastball, change speeds, command, ease of which he did things, arm action, three quality pitches and almost MLB ave. FB as only a junior in high school.
Each pitcher stands alone, but the 6-3/175 proportioned the way it was, sure didn't hurt. If people like to compare I could give a link or two of profiles on other successful LHPs who would be considered more finesse than power types.
Another aspect with regard to LHP velocity at the college level---a lot will depend on the coach of the program--many won't look at kids throwing under 85 while others are just concerned with whether the kid can get batters out and win games---right or wrong that is just the way it is
PG,
I'd love to see the link to the other finesse type lefties.
I'd love to see the link to the other finesse type lefties.
redsox,
We are kind of swamped right now, maybe I can get a better example later, but here is an outstanding pitching prospect (drafted late but attending Vanderbilt) would have been selected earlier in the draft if more signable. Most would consider him a finesse type lefty. We have seen him touch 89, but he is very good at mid to 87 and throws in that area with command and good life. This kid may not be the greatest example because he is going to throw in the 90s, but I would still consider him a finesse type lefty. Maybe I can come up with a few that are lower velocity finesse types.
Lefty Prospect
We are kind of swamped right now, maybe I can get a better example later, but here is an outstanding pitching prospect (drafted late but attending Vanderbilt) would have been selected earlier in the draft if more signable. Most would consider him a finesse type lefty. We have seen him touch 89, but he is very good at mid to 87 and throws in that area with command and good life. This kid may not be the greatest example because he is going to throw in the 90s, but I would still consider him a finesse type lefty. Maybe I can come up with a few that are lower velocity finesse types.
Lefty Prospect
PG, perhaps Garvin is not the best example. Everyone knew that he was going to throw harder because of how skinny he was. Garvin currently pitches 88-92, and touched 94 at the Cape. Josh Turley would probably be a better example, or Justin Simmons at Texas a few years ago. He went 12-1 his sophomore year pitching at 82.
Here is my question. Maybe PG has a good thought process on it. Why are there "crafty lefties", but not crafty righties. Can a right hander with great movement, stuff and mental makeup, not be just as effective as a lefty with similar stuff? Just curious.
Brandon Webb for the D'backs. He is a righty who is crafty. In 2007 before he hurt his shoulder, he would get on a role and throw 4-5 innings in a row and never throw above 88. He would throw nothing but sankers. That is what he called them. Sankers. I always thought he had lefty movement.
Finesse HS Lefty
I believe this kid was selected most valuable pitcher of the tournament at the recent PG National Championship (Upperclass) and he's been committed to UCSB for quite a while.
I believe this kid was selected most valuable pitcher of the tournament at the recent PG National Championship (Upperclass) and he's been committed to UCSB for quite a while.
quote:PG, perhaps Garvin is not the best example. Everyone knew that he was going to throw harder because of how skinny he was. Garvin currently pitches 88-92, and touched 94 at the Cape. Josh Turley would probably be a better example, or Justin Simmons at Texas a few years ago. He went 12-1 his sophomore year pitching at 82.
Koufax,
You're right! Sorry! I know he wasn't the best example, but I was in a hurry. Josh Turley is a much better example. In fact, he is a GREAT example.
Thanks for bringing him up.
Josh Turley
quote:Here is my question. Maybe PG has a good thought process on it. Why are there "crafty lefties", but not crafty righties. Can a right hander with great movement, stuff and mental makeup, not be just as effective as a lefty with similar stuff? Just curious.
Here is one of many examples, signed with Clemson.
Crafty RHP
Koufax
What ever became of Justin Simmons. If I recall, he was drafted and his changeup was his signature pitch.
What ever became of Justin Simmons. If I recall, he was drafted and his changeup was his signature pitch.