HOW IMPORTANT IS SPEED?

if u are an outfielder speed is key

66.5 is fine in college

I have heard college coaches say that speed is more important offensively in the BBCOR era than it was before. Of course if you can't get on base speed won't do you much good.

Offensively…Yes. Shows ability to stretch a tweener into a double.

Defensively…probably not so much. I've seen lots of guys with great explosiveness that run solid 30s but an average 60. It seems this often applies to the football guys who train to explosiveness and care more about a shorter 10 and 20 yard split-time and overall 40 yard-dash time rather than the longer more sustained speed needed for the 60.

I’ve often noted that many baseball players run a pretty good 60 but have little burst and struggle to get separation on the football field due to a lack of explosiveness off the line. Wes Welker probably isn’t going to run a great 60 but I bet his 10/20 split times and even his 30 aren’t too shabby.

Defensively, burst and the shorter 10/20/30 yard dash or even better, a 20 yard shuttle seem to be a better measure for a MIF’ers explosiveness and lateral agility. I just see no place for a 60 in measuring range for a MIF’er. Just doesn’t equate to explosiveness and range. If it did, Defensive Backs and Linebackers would be running 60s.

Good article about scouting speed from PG:

Speed Can Be a Tricky Tool to Scout

Speed has some value but is overrated. As Leo Durocher said" You can't steal first base".

Speed never has a slump!

jaggerz

by no means it is overated----my son was part of a college oufield where not one player was slower than 6.6

Speed itself is very important. The 60 is just a simple and universal (basically) way to measure it.


As to the people who say "you can't steal first base", tell that to guys who have 20+ infield hits in a season because they're fast. Ichiro has 2606 career hits (.322 average). Without infield singles, his career average would be .265.

Speed is not overrated.

The only person's I've ever seen who say it's overrated are people who don't have it!

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
jaggerz

by no means it is overated----my son was part of a college oufield where not one player was slower than 6.6

Okay you take Ichiro and I will take Ted Williams.
Of course Ted played when scouts looked at "baseball" ability and not radar guns and stop watches.

I stumbled upon this the other day.


http://perfectgame.org/records/

except there just aren't too many Ted Williams around anymore....

whammer31- 6.5-6.7 is plenty in college. At my current school the fastest player we have recorded ran a 6.46. Most of our position players are in the 6.8-7.2 range, with a few outliers each way. Outfielders and middle infielders are generally 6.7-7.0.

I relate speed similarly to velocity for pitchers. Not everyone is blessed with it. Out of those that are, not everyone knows how to use it.

You can't teach 100 mph. You can't teach 6.2 speed. But you can teach how to use it. Projectability is desirable.

I watched the AFL Rising Stars game last night and saw Billy Hamilton lay down a bunt and run 3.4 seconds out of the box to first base. I've never heard of a time faster than that (and neither have any of the scouting people I've heard from about it). Speed can be the biggest weapon of all on the field if exploited properly.

That speed is good...better for offense. IMO that speed does not necessarily translate to good defense..unless you have a few other factors to accompany it...such as a glove, the ability to read the ball and reaction time.

Whammer31 -

Don't take this the wrong way. But this strikes me as a strange post. Almost braggadocios. Like the cheer leader asking if she's pretty.

Most kids would kill to be in the 6.5-6.7 range.

But then again, maybe your kid would kill to be able to hit. Or field. Or throw. Or hit for power.

So, yeah he's plenty fast. But hopefully its not his only tool or else he will have a long career as a pinch runner.

A buddy of mine always says "If you hit, you don't sit."

Rich
www.PlayInSchool.com

quote:

Originally posted by PIS:
Whammer31 -

Don't take this the wrong way. But this strikes me as a strange post. Almost braggadocios. Like the cheer leader asking if she's pretty.

Most kids would kill to be in the 6.5-6.7 range.

But then again, maybe your kid would kill to be able to hit. Or field. Or throw. Or hit for power.

So, yeah he's plenty fast. But hopefully its not his only tool or else he will have a long career as a pinch runner.

A buddy of mine always says "If you hit, you don't sit."

Rich
www.PlayInSchool.com

quote:

Originally posted by PIS:

Whammer31 -

Don't take this the wrong way. But this strikes me as a strange post. Almost braggadocios. Like the cheer leader asking if she's pretty.

Most kids would kill to be in the 6.5-6.7 range.

But then again, maybe your kid would kill to be able to hit. Or field. Or throw. Or hit for power.

So, yeah he's plenty fast. But hopefully its not his only tool or else he will have a long career as a pinch runner.

A buddy of mine always says "If you hit, you don't sit."

PIS- I know a few cheerleaders that aren't that pretty...

quote:

I watched the AFL Rising Stars game last night and saw Billy Hamilton lay down a bunt and run 3.4 seconds out of the box to first base. I've never heard of a time faster than that (and neither have any of the scouting people I've heard from about it). Speed can be the biggest weapon of all on the field if exploited properly.

Mantle was timed 3.1 to first before he got hurt.

I don't understand where the Ichiro vs Ted Williams argument came in... That didn't prove anything.

Speed can get you noticed/recruited but at some point you will have to produce on the field to play.

If enough ML seasons are played eventually there will be a Ted Williams that runs faster than Ichiro. That will be something to see. Possibly he's already in the Majors and we are seeing the start of his career. You probably know who I'm talking about.

quote:

If enough ML seasons are played eventually there will be a Ted Williams that runs faster than Ichiro. That will be something to see. Possibly he's already in the Majors and we are seeing the start of his career. You probably know who I'm talking about.

Will it be this year's runner-up for AL MVP??

JH,

Who knows knows what the future will bring for that guy, but he may be something we haven't seen before. I've watched ML baseball for almost fifty years and I've not seen anyone with precisely his skill set. Faster than Mays, yet his fielding and athleticism is better than Mantle in centerfield. Also at least thirty Hr power in a division that has a lot of good pitching.

By the way I've got to admit I've been reading about the Mick's 3.1 down the line since I was a little kid and I have trouble believing it. Why do the fastest runners who today who are better trained athletes and as the Olympic's show, faster every generation not able to even approach that. Mantle played football at a small school in Okl. Why wasn't his speed a national sensation as a football player if he is so much faster in a thirty yard sprint then everyone that has played the game before or since. I think there is some exaggeration there and I am one of Mickey's biggest fans(at least on the field that is). Everybody just quotes that number but it's kind of like an urban legend. Where and when was it clocked?

Three Bagger- It was in a Sporting News article in 1952. I can't say I've ever seen anything beyond highlight reels of Mantle. I do know the initial (and well-documented) knee injury was his rookie season in the World Series of 1951. In that season he played in 96 games, had 386 plate appearances and stole 8 bases on 15 attempts. I can't find any minor league statistics on him on stolen bases, and advanced defensive metrics don't exist for the era.

The 3.1 seconds is documented (60 years ago) in a reputable publication, although with no citation. 3.1 is believable, but once-in-a-lifetime for sure.

BTW, Trout's 60 time in high school was 6.38.

His home-to-first is documented at 3.53.

Sorry to others for hijacking the thread. I think the consensus here is that speed is always a plus, and always a desirable tool. But its certainly not everything in baseball.

Whammer;

Is your son a switch hitter? Which eye is dominant?

Carl Crawford was 6.4 in the 60 yd at our AC tryouts at TCU.
Bo Jackson ran home to first from the right side 3.3. One our players - Howie Bedell
in the South Dakota Basin league ran 3.2 from the left side

Bob

I might be wrong but I believe Trout ran a MUCH faster time than that at a Perfect Game showcase. Perhaps PGStaff can tell me if my memory is correct. I think it was on Turf at the National Showcase. NOTE: I have since looked and believe it was M. Shifflet who ran the 6.11 in the Nationals not Trout. Sorry.

I will use my own son as an example here because I have watched and measured his speed since he was eleven years old competing and winning in the TX AAU track program in the 100 and 200 meters, going all the way to the TX state championships. As he got older I watched and still watch his 60's times. My own son was clocked at a ML tryout two summers ago at the same 6.38 in the sixty. I brought up on this site that two years in a row two different assistant coaches clocked him at 3.59 out of the lefthanded box but several posters on this sight just couldn't believe it. I bet the St Mary's coach from the College World Series wouldn't disbelieve me after what happened twice last year in our opening game of the DII college World Series. The video of that game is still on the NCAA site. Truthfully though, those coaches may not have been measuring correctly because two different times two different ML scouts have told me he ran a 3.72 when he was 17 and a 3.68 last year so that may be his true times. Still that's getting down the line. I just can't even imagine what a 3.1 would look like. Too bad Bo Jackson wasn't lefthanded so we could truly measure him as I believe he was clocked at 6.13 in the 60. Hard to believe the Mick was faster than Deion Sanders who was lefthnded even at thirty yards.

The World record in the 60 yard dash is 5.99. Carl Lewis best time was just over 6 flat.

We have all heard the 3.1 h-1 by Mantle. Everyone knows that the first half of the 60 is much slower than the last half (90 ft). The second half at full speed... The first half includes the start and getting to full speed.

If Mantle ran a 3.1, it would equate to something like a 5.5 in 60 yards. He would be much faster than the fastest man ever in track. That is hard to believe.

Three Bagger- You have a PM

Good points PGStaff.

One thing to point out though is that baseball players are almost always running their 60's in baseball spikes and most of the times on grass. My son has never been timed on the 60 on astro turf, always grass and always in baseball spikes. I saw a guy at a ML tryout put on track shoes. I was wondering if yall ever allow that at the PG Nationals, PGStaff. Two weeks ago between games of a doubleheader to close out my son's team Fall schedule, several ML scouts made both teams run 60's in between games in that high grass they have on the Delta field. 6.46--first place.

6.46 in spikes on grass awesome! The speed is also an indicator of overall athleticism, so when you have a player running sub 6.5 times they usually do other things well!

I think the guys you are talking about really seem like natural speed demons. I want to convey that for all the others out there, the 60 time can be improved greatly with just a little work and natural growth. My 2014 son was running 7.2-3 on our turf football field last spring. He decided to work on it over the summer and got some limited coaching from someone who was at the track one day. He ran a 7.0 in mid August on wet grass, a 6.9 on turf later in the month and then a 6.8 last week. That is cutting half a second off his time in about 5 months. He is hoping to get to 6.5-6 by the time Head First comes around next summer.

I don't know if it fully accounts for Mantle's reported 3.1 time, but he wasn't running 30 yards to first base. It is 30 yards from the back tip of home plate to the farthest edge of the first base bag. Mickey (and all lefties) was running from wherever he stood in the left-handed batters box (29 yards away?) and if he was pulling the ball he was starting with momentum toward first. If he touched the near side of the bag, that saved him 15 inches too. Not sure if this makes 3.1 realistic, but extrapolating 60 times from (supposed 30 yard) home-to-first times from a dead stop certainly is not valid.

That is true, but still if he had continued running another 30 yards... That 30 yards would have been much faster than the first 29 yards. It's that way with all animals, vehicles and humans. It would take the fastest man ever to do a 3.1 H-1. Mantle wasn't the only left hand hitter and no one has ever come remotely close to 3.1.

Mantle was very fast when he was healthy. 3.3 on a drag bunt is unbelievable. 3.1 seems impossible. I know the story has been out there for a long time and people believe it. I just don't believe it!

I've always been under the impression that the 3.1 was supposedly timed on a drag bunt.

quote:

Originally posted by PIS:
Whammer31 -

Don't take this the wrong way. But this strikes me as a strange post. Almost braggadocios. Like the cheer leader asking if she's pretty.

Most kids would kill to be in the 6.5-6.7 range.

But then again, maybe your kid would kill to be able to hit. Or field. Or throw. Or hit for power.

So, yeah he's plenty fast. But hopefully its not his only tool or else he will have a long career as a pinch runner.

A buddy of mine always says "If you hit, you don't sit."

Rich
www.PlayInSchool.com

Wow, touched a nerve. Didn't mean that at all. I know what high school speed is and that it is fast. But hitting .280 is great in the MLB but not so good in middle school. Not having ever been involved with college, I was curious how high school speed like that would be in college. This is our/his first time and will be our/his only time in college. Not trying to upset the board.

Whammer31 -

I was afraid I might upset you with my comments. But I think the discussion has been a good one.

Tell your son to keep up the hard work. If he can put the barrel on the ball his speed will be a tool that will be feared by every team.

Rich
www.PlayInSchool.com

Back to the original posters questions, I feel that if your son is running 6.5 to 6.7 then he has plenty of speed to get noticed as well as be a factor on the college field.

I can't emphasize enough though that speed is something that can be squandered on a field. A player has to be successful in at least 70% of his steal attempts and at least 90% of his steals of third or he is actually HURTING the offense. He has to run great routes in the outfield or he's continuously just outrunning his mistakes and is thus in poor positions for throws and such. A speedy player who's head isn't constantly in the game watching for opportunities like some kind of base running predator wastes chances and hurts his team because he doesn't use his talent to the fullest. I always told my son's to run with disciplined reckless abandon. That statement doesn't seem to make much sense but what I meant was--be ready for every dropped ball, hesitation, etc by the defense, but always with a mental calculation of the odds, the out situation, the score and the possible cost versus reward. Sometimes moving up one base is not worth even a five or ten percent chance of being out at second or third, yet there are times when a 60-40 advantage may be worth it. But you can't live on 60-40 all the time and be a successful baserunner.

Your son has the tool, the speed but how he applies it and whether it becomes game changing speed is another thing entirely.

MLB Scouting departments use the 2-8 or 20-80 scale.

It goes like this...

5 is average grade on MLB scale.
2 is the worst grade
8 is the very highest grade.
Anyone graded an 8 would be among the very fastest in the Major Leagues.

60 yard times
5 grade (average) 6.9 - 7.0
8 grade (highest) 6.4 or lower

Home to 1B times
5 grade (average) RHH 4.3 - LHH 4.2
8 grade (highest) RHH 4.0 or better - LHH 3.9 or better.

Scouts might grade up or down some based on things other than actual times.

These days, hitting is the most important tool for a position player.

Speed is the only tool that plays on both defense and offense.

6.4 being the highest grade for MLB, obviously is also the highest for college. 6.5 to 6.7 shows (Plus) running ability for MLB.

Running ability is important at every position, but mandatory at some positions. It doesn't mean much if someone is a poor hitter.

Wonder what the Panda's time in the 60 is? Does it really even matter? Maybe he was a burner when he was 17 but his value now as World Series MVP has absolutely nothing to do with his 60 time.

Just saying...