A team needs all kinds of players. Ask Fenway, the Red Sox might still be looking at 100 years without a championship if Dave Roberts could not steal 2nd base...
Butt here are those (Sabermetricians) that might say that the Red Sox or any other team might have won one or more if they had never worried about stealing base.
The BBCOR bats really gave those that valued the stopwatch a reason to smile. All I've heard the last couple of years is how important the bunt and moving the runner over is and playing for the one run. C'mon. Those facets of the game were always important at times during a game. Especially after someone got on base with a hit or walk (OBP).
The BBCOR bats really gave those that valued the stopwatch a reason to smile. All I've heard the last couple of years is how important the bunt and moving the runner over is and playing for the one run. C'mon. Those facets of the game were always important at times during a game. Especially after someone got on base with a hit or walk (OBP).
Speed and superior athleticism will get you drafted.
This is how I made sense of this.
Take two players
1.guy is a superior athlete,is a Burner on the basepaths baseball skills are in process/RAW as they say
Next guy, can play the game,knows the game,can hit,not superior athlete,but good baseball player
Put both these guys in the minor leagues(if the second guy gets drafted)
Give them 600 at bats.At the end of that the good hitter is still a good hitter but limited atheltically as far as PRO grades.
Second guy begins to learn to hit.Keep giving him reps,BECAUSE(and a big because) if he learns to hit,he will be better than player number two over the span of their careers.
If he is a plus, plus athleter and his skills catch up(thats what hundreds of drafted players are given the chance to do)in their eyes he might be the next great one.
And the next great one is what they strive to find.Always.Lots of other guys get a chance BUT these guys get the reps and the ability to prove they cant learn the game or how to hit.
The other guy is looked at as a limited ceiling.
Unless he absolutely rakes with power.
Thats what I have observed and my conclusion.JMO
This is how I made sense of this.
Take two players
1.guy is a superior athlete,is a Burner on the basepaths baseball skills are in process/RAW as they say
Next guy, can play the game,knows the game,can hit,not superior athlete,but good baseball player
Put both these guys in the minor leagues(if the second guy gets drafted)
Give them 600 at bats.At the end of that the good hitter is still a good hitter but limited atheltically as far as PRO grades.
Second guy begins to learn to hit.Keep giving him reps,BECAUSE(and a big because) if he learns to hit,he will be better than player number two over the span of their careers.
If he is a plus, plus athleter and his skills catch up(thats what hundreds of drafted players are given the chance to do)in their eyes he might be the next great one.
And the next great one is what they strive to find.Always.Lots of other guys get a chance BUT these guys get the reps and the ability to prove they cant learn the game or how to hit.
The other guy is looked at as a limited ceiling.
Unless he absolutely rakes with power.
Thats what I have observed and my conclusion.JMO
fanofgame: your reply makes sense and I can see what you're saying. But if those two are being looked at by colleges, it would make more sense (IMO) to take the guy who can play.
On the other hand, I look at it differently. If two guys are equal and one is much faster, of course, go with the faster guy.
However, it never really works that way because the slower guy will work more on things he can control, such as extra time on batting with an emphasis on getting clean hits or power, fielding with an emphasis on making all the routine plays without an error, throwing accurately, etc...
The fast, athletic guy will not develop the same way. His focus may be more on putting the ball in play and beating it out or reaching on an error rather than clean hits or power, or working on bunting, or looking for a walk. His fielding may not be focused as much on the routine as much as the extreme because of his range and maybe his arm. This is the player who makes plays that no one else can make, but may botch the routine one. We've all seen this before.
On the other hand, I look at it differently. If two guys are equal and one is much faster, of course, go with the faster guy.
However, it never really works that way because the slower guy will work more on things he can control, such as extra time on batting with an emphasis on getting clean hits or power, fielding with an emphasis on making all the routine plays without an error, throwing accurately, etc...
The fast, athletic guy will not develop the same way. His focus may be more on putting the ball in play and beating it out or reaching on an error rather than clean hits or power, or working on bunting, or looking for a walk. His fielding may not be focused as much on the routine as much as the extreme because of his range and maybe his arm. This is the player who makes plays that no one else can make, but may botch the routine one. We've all seen this before.
aplayer is a player regardless
Not every team has the payroll of the Yankee's. Take a look at the success the A's and Giants had with a bunch of unknown's, unwanted's and retreads....
To win, you must have your superior athlete's but I never under estimate the value of the consistent performer who may never have a MVP season but like a Marco Scutero who surprised everyone with both the A's and the Giants. I bet he was never heralded as the best player on a team but boy was he a big part of his teams success. I think you must have the guy who quietly gets the job done often without a lot of lime light.
To win, you must have your superior athlete's but I never under estimate the value of the consistent performer who may never have a MVP season but like a Marco Scutero who surprised everyone with both the A's and the Giants. I bet he was never heralded as the best player on a team but boy was he a big part of his teams success. I think you must have the guy who quietly gets the job done often without a lot of lime light.
I was talking more along the lines of the Pro game.
Hey I agree a player is a player,BUT to say that certain tools arent covented by scouts is just wrong.
Yes guys make it that are scrappers etc,ect,but their path is usually harder.
Buster Posey is a guy who isnt fast but look at what he brings to the table.
The OP asked how important speed is and I see it as something that will get you looks at the pro level.
Hey I agree a player is a player,BUT to say that certain tools arent covented by scouts is just wrong.
Yes guys make it that are scrappers etc,ect,but their path is usually harder.
Buster Posey is a guy who isnt fast but look at what he brings to the table.
The OP asked how important speed is and I see it as something that will get you looks at the pro level.
Speed is probably the most important of the five tools. Under 7.0 is considered a good 60 time, however, many college coaches want faster than that at certain positions. Sixty times of 6.5, 6.6 will raise eyebrows. Hard for college coaches to not "take a look" at a kid who flys.
Speed is important, but it is far from the "most important tool. Hitting is the most important tool, these days.
If you are the best hitter in the country but can't run very well, you're going to get lots of MLB interest. Even first round interest in some cases.
If you are the fastest runner in the country but can't hit, you're going to get very little MLB interest. Probably not even get drafted.
We see this every year!
If you are the best hitter in the country but can't run very well, you're going to get lots of MLB interest. Even first round interest in some cases.
If you are the fastest runner in the country but can't hit, you're going to get very little MLB interest. Probably not even get drafted.
We see this every year!
personal experience
some coaches like and want speed in thier in oufielders---withouthis speed my son would not have gotten his schorship----and yes he could hit
some coaches like and want speed in thier in oufielders---withouthis speed my son would not have gotten his schorship----and yes he could hit
A couple of years ago Jr. went to a low to mid level DI school fall camp. It was not a prostyle 'showcase'. They split the players up in to three teams and did drills and played games for 1.5 days. While two teams played the other would go perform the essentials (velocity, fielding and 60). Jr is a middle Infielder and lit it up during the games. Played flawless defense and hit the tar out of the ball. The college players should great interest in him asked him 'if he was ever going to make an out' and told him he was best player on the field by far. After the camp head coach pulled him aside and said he looked terrific and told him he had DI skills. Then he asked his assistant how fast Jr. ran the sixty. Asst said 7.2 He did a 180 and told Jr. he's not fast enough to play at that level. His comment was 'he could teach someone to hit but couldnt teach them to be fast'. All that to say, Jr. has worked his whole life to be a good all around player and hitter. Its not that easy and I dont beleive it can be taught overnight. I would bet almost every top level college coach will tell you they would love to have a roster full of gutty, gritty, 'dirtbag' kind of player vs a roster full of speed but they will recruit speed (size and/or velocity) over a 'ballplayer' everytime.
BTW, the school kept one of the other MIF who was really fast. He did not play freshmen year and he batted about .225 his soph season and had 15 SB's.
BTW, the school kept one of the other MIF who was really fast. He did not play freshmen year and he batted about .225 his soph season and had 15 SB's.
Even as someone who's talked ad nauseum about the importance of speed and who's son depends on it greatly, I agree with PGStaff that hitting is the most important tool. All tools are important of course but if you can't hit, you eventually won't play much no matter what the level. Unless you are a pitcher of course!
Speed is great to have, but I think I would rather have a smart base runner with average speed.
Skidog,
I could name hundreds of players that were average or below average runners who are playing DI baseball. In fact, I can name first round draft picks who were below average runners. BTW, the two MLB MVP's this year are below average runners. If your only tool is running, there is no future in baseball. Now if you are able to hit, running becomes an extremely valuable tool. Can't hit... Your value is as a pinch runner or late inning defensive replacement, if you have good defensive tools.
I could name hundreds of players that were average or below average runners who are playing DI baseball. In fact, I can name first round draft picks who were below average runners. BTW, the two MLB MVP's this year are below average runners. If your only tool is running, there is no future in baseball. Now if you are able to hit, running becomes an extremely valuable tool. Can't hit... Your value is as a pinch runner or late inning defensive replacement, if you have good defensive tools.
Jr. is at JUCO working on his skills (speed) hoping to continue his education and baseball career at a good DII school.
Speed is a great tool but only one of the five needed to be a great ballplayer.
Question; Can a college coaching staff teach someone to be a hitter? Can the same question be asked for speed improvement?
Speed is a great tool but only one of the five needed to be a great ballplayer.
Question; Can a college coaching staff teach someone to be a hitter? Can the same question be asked for speed improvement?
Question; Can a college coaching staff teach someone to be a hitter? Can the same question be asked for speed improvement?
Skidog, I might be wrong, but I think hitting is about hand eye coordination and bat speed at the higher levels. I'm not sure either one of those can be taught.
I also think that any tool can be improved. The question is how much. Every player has a ceiling. They can only be improved to their personal ceiling.
I've seen a 15 yo kid score from second on a sacrifice bunt. No error or juggled ball involved. He beat out routine balls to SS and even 2nd base if 2Bman wasn't quick enough. He worked hard but never became a good enough hitter to play in college. He lasted one year a juco.
In all sports speed is a level separator. So it's always going to be very important. But if you don't have something to go along with your speed you won't last long in any sport. Bob Hayes could catch a football, John Carlos couldn't. He never made it out of training camp with the Eagles years ago.
Skidog, I might be wrong, but I think hitting is about hand eye coordination and bat speed at the higher levels. I'm not sure either one of those can be taught.
I also think that any tool can be improved. The question is how much. Every player has a ceiling. They can only be improved to their personal ceiling.
I've seen a 15 yo kid score from second on a sacrifice bunt. No error or juggled ball involved. He beat out routine balls to SS and even 2nd base if 2Bman wasn't quick enough. He worked hard but never became a good enough hitter to play in college. He lasted one year a juco.
In all sports speed is a level separator. So it's always going to be very important. But if you don't have something to go along with your speed you won't last long in any sport. Bob Hayes could catch a football, John Carlos couldn't. He never made it out of training camp with the Eagles years ago.
It appears to me sometimes when we talk about speed somebody gives an example of the player with speed but who lacks few if any other skills such as baseball intelligence, the ability to hit or having good base running skills. I agree that we have all seen players who fall in this category. For those parents of ball players who have kids that are fast, make sure that your son is working on his other tools. Just think how much more advanced he is when he can hit, field,throw and smartly run the bases. His speed than becomes an even greater asset because he can now get to balls in the outfield (assuming he is an outfielder) faster and make more outs. He can steal bases, lay down bunts and get infield hits because of his speed which puts more pressure on the defense. He can generate more runs scored, work a walk so that he can continue tp put pressure on the defense. He also probably does not need to hit for power which is in my opinion one of the most difficult tools to project and develop especially for younger players.
Make so mistake about it but the player who has speed with the other tools is a real asset to a team. As they say "speed does not slump". So if he gets a walk or an infield hit he can still use that skill to help the team and still get to balls that a player who does not have this skill.
Make so mistake about it but the player who has speed with the other tools is a real asset to a team. As they say "speed does not slump". So if he gets a walk or an infield hit he can still use that skill to help the team and still get to balls that a player who does not have this skill.
This statement from the recent PG write-up "Reflections on Caribbean Showcase" left me wondering what does this statement mean in reference to California, speed & scouts:
A total of 102 players ran the 60. 55 of those players ran 7.00 or less on the wet turf field at Roberto Clemente Stadium. 15 of those ran under 6.65. You couldn’t find 55 players in the whole state of California who could run under 7.00 and scouts who know what I’m saying about California and running speed know exactly what I’m talking about.quote:
quote:
My 2013's only current "true interest" from a D1 is based on the following question. "Is that your true 60 time and do you swing as well LH as you do RH?" We will find out in the next 3 weeks? 
the importance of speed dependson the game the coach plays
In my son's senior year in high school our team had two baseball players that were state qualifiers in track and field events. They both ran about 6.4 to 6.5 forties at that time. One was a football player who was playing baseball on a lark and one was a guy who had played with solid travel teams and had played baseball since the age of six. The guy who knew what to do with his speed on a baseball field stole 30 bases and set school records in hits, SB's, runs, batting average and played great centerfield. The guy with the same great speed who had no clue what to do with it on a baseball field--the coach didn't know much either, but that's a different story--stole 3 bases in 5 attempts, once caused the other guy to get a single off the right centerfield fence because the football player thought he needed to tag up at first even though the outfielder was obviously not going to catch the ball. He constantly misplayed balls in the outfield , sometimes catching up to his mistakes because of his great speed and sometimes not. Despite that kind of speed, he hit only ,250 because he had a bad habit of swinging at 3-0 pitches and making outs, didn't have a clue how to bunt and again in the baserunning department was once picked off with the bases loaded, two outs and a 3-0 count on the hitter. (His dad was mad--said the batter should have swung to protect his son the runner at second!!) 
My point in all this is that you can have two guys with equal great speed and one goes on to be a good college player and the other contributes very little all because he didn't know how to use it in a baseball context.
My point in all this is that you can have two guys with equal great speed and one goes on to be a good college player and the other contributes very little all because he didn't know how to use it in a baseball context.