How is it possible to feel sorry for them?

luv baseball posted:

2019Lefty21 posted:

MidAtlanticDad posted:

2019Lefty21 posted:

So how can Machado be worth almost as much as 5 years of sale or Goldschmidt in just 1 year? Someone explain that to me for a guy who just completed his 4 best years in his prime and hit .282 for his career to date? Or even worse, that’s like 10 years of Altuve in a year!

Pretty simple. Under the current CBA, most players are underpaid in the first 6 years (before free agency), and many are overpaid once they reach FA. Teams have a finite payroll. They portion it out based on the rules of that system, with the goal of putting the best team on the field.

I get it but I don’t think any player in baseball is worth a guaranteed $30,000,000 a year from ages 27-37. I guess the market will show what it can handle but to me when you look at the comparison to Altuve money and stat wise it is just crazy. It’s not like Manny is a stellar teammate or member of the community either is he? I guess I’m still stuck in 1982 when the Mets stole George Foster away from the Reds for 5 year $10,000,000 contract!lol

Foster is actually the answer to one of my favorite trivia questions....who was the Opening Day Left fielder for the 1986 NY Mets.  FWIW I always thought he was an island of professionalism, respectability and class while Cashen put together a really good team.  

As for Machado he has been a great defensive player who has shown increasing power.  That is almost sure to be trimmed significantly playing 81 games in that cavern in SD vs Camden Yards.  He may never hit 30 HR in a season over the life of the contract.  If SD gets .285 25 HR and 90+ RBI with 145 games played at a Gold glove level for about 6 or 7 years it won't be a terrible deal.  But I can see at 31 or 32 he drops off and the defense fades as injuries start to happen so he plays 100 games a year a couple of times on the back end of the deal.  I think NL teams are looking into the future and see the DH coming soon.  If he becomes a DH after 5 years at age 32 the Padres will have made a bad deal. 

Albert Pujols averaged 30 HRs and 100 RBI for ages 34 to 37 and I don't think Machado will produce anything that good at that stage of his career but if he does then the Padres made a great move stats wise.  We'll see if he can be what Foster was for the Mets which was someone to lead a franchise out of the wilderness to become a competitive playoff caliber team.

I agree with what you say 100%....just $300,000,000 is one heckuva wager for any of that coming true...just my opinion.

I have a question....raise your hand if you wouldn’t take the deal if you were Machado? 

If you raised your hand, please explain your ideal scenario.

Is there any pressure to win in SD?  That's just another reason why I believe he's not worth that money.  I wouldn't take that money only if there was a better offer elsewhere.  Mo Vaughn once said - "It's not about the money".  Did anyone really believe him? Get what you can get when you can get it.

After the contract is signed is when I can feel a little bit of empathy...when he has to take the field to earn that ginormous contract.   Machado is a tool.  Now he is a rich tool with with talent and skills on the baseball field.   The problem is he is not going to be able to live up to that money because there is no supporting cast and nobody to protect him in the lineup with the possible exception of Hosmer who has a decent eye at the plate.  Plus Petco is not a hitters ball park, and not a long ball friendly stadium.   Nobody on the current Padres team is hitting over .300.   It is going to be a brutal year for Machado at the plate.  

I’ll never fault a player for taking as much as a team is willing to give him. But as a star I would think Machado would want to go somewhere with a track record and on the verge of winning. The Padres have been pointed in the right direction and failed many times in the past. As least when Jon Lester signed with the Cubs he was jumping on board with Theo Epstein's reputation. 

I don’t believe Machado has ten years of good attitude in him. He’s more likely to be a poor attitude role model for young players. To look ten years out is very high risk. I’ll push in my chips the Padres don’t win a World Series with Machado. I don’t believe this is a risky bet in any way. In the long run the Dodgers, Giants and Dbacks front offices will keep them more viable contenders. 

Lefty - It sure is a ton of dough and a big bet for Padres.  They won't move the needle meaningfully until and if the farm system bears fruit.  If you look at the Padres pipe in some ways the Mets comparison makes more sense.  When Foster signed with them in 1982 guys like Strawberry, Gooden, Mitchell, Dykstra and Backman were still in the minors and Wilson, Brooks, Mazzilli  and other trade pieces were sitting there early in their MLB careers.  

I do not think Machado is the same kind of character guy that Foster was but he is a major league all-star.  If he can find a way to be a positive leader for kids coming up and put up the kind of numbers I talk about above then it won't be an awful deal. 

But that is a series of if's and those parleys carry high odds.  So if I had to bet in 3 years Machado is still a valuable asset that the Yanks or Red Sox will come back to look at because a $30MM contract may not look so bad to them when they have to pony up for some of the younger stars they have now.  

Apparently the Padres performed another act of Stupid Padres Franchise Moves. They signed Machado for 300M when his next best other offer was between 175-250M.

Was deal 10 years?  If it was 7 for $210MM or something close to those numbers it is basically he same deal with more years on it.  It is the length more than the 30 APS that might bite them if he plays like he should at least until age 31 or 32.  

They had to go for more years to get him is my bet and that other offers were also in the 30 per range.

RJM posted:

Apparently the Padres performed another act of Stupid Padres Franchise Moves. They signed Machado for 300M when his next best other offer was between 175-250M.

That is not true. The best competing offer was 8/250, with the potential to be 10/350.

It came out Saturday the only on the table offers were somewhere between 175-250. The Padres overpaid. According to several scouts the problem Machado had and Harper has is they’re not worth 300 mil because neither of them are considered the top five players in the game. One insider said the reason Harper hasn’t signed yet is he’s caught between the Phillies having the offer that saves him embarrassment and not really wanting to play there.

I’m pretty sure the Sox offer had the potential to exceed $300M with incentives but Manny went with the guaranteed money. 

Harper gets 13/330. Boras does it again. That's why high profile players sign with him.

MidAtlanticDad posted:

Harper gets 13/330. Boras does it again. That's why high profile players sign with him.

He turned down 30MM/yr from the Nats to get 25.385MM/yr from the Phillies (on a contract he'll never see the end of) and that's 'doing it again'? Maybe if you subscribe to AOC math.....

Phillies fans can be excited today. In about years six through thirteen they will be constantly bitching about Harper. 

However, without knowing how the contract is structured it’s about 25M per year. 25M might be a great deal in a few years if Harper is still performing. 

I believe Harper is overrated. He plays hard and gets banged up. I don’t believe he has anything close to a thirteen year shelf life as a top producer. I see an end result similar to Pujols. 

In the short term I’m happy he’s not signing with the Dodgers or Cubs. While the Red Sox are in capable of getting to the World Series mode these two teams are the top threats. In the beginning I was hoping he wouldn’t end up on the Yankees or Astros. 

DesertDuck posted:

MidAtlanticDad posted:

Harper gets 13/330. Boras does it again. That's why high profile players sign with him.

He turned down 30MM/yr from the Nats to get 25.385MM/yr from the Phillies (on a contract he'll never see the end of) and that's 'doing it again'? Maybe if you subscribe to AOC math.....

According to multiple reports, about $100M of the Nats' offer was deferred compensation. So the present value was significantly less than a "standard" 10/300 deal.

RJM posted:

Phillies fans can be excited today. In about years six through thirteen they will be constantly bitching about Harper. 

However, without knowing how the contract is structured it’s about 25M per year. 25M might be a great deal in a few years if Harper is still performing. 

MidAtlanticDad posted:

RJM posted:

Phillies fans can be excited today. In about years six through thirteen they will be constantly bitching about Harper. 

However, without knowing how the contract is structured it’s about 25M per year. 25M might be a great deal in a few years if Harper is still performing. 

What is this image I’m not seeing?

Good riddance and dont let the screen door hit you on the way out.  What a greedy sob.  Sick of his half assed effort running to first among other things.  

25.7 AAV Nats offered 30 (and that was their FIRST OFFER, could have negotiated more, but they wanted to test the free agent market)

Over $4m less for 3 more years and the Nats probably would have made that deal last fall too btw.

Meanwhile a real team guy would have stayed and taken even less (or agreed to the deferred comp) in order to win a ring.  Make the team around me better, I'm staying and I'm richer than I could ever want anyway so I will take a little less to give you room to get better.  

I can't wait for the boos the first game.  Have fun Phillies fans, because he will break your heart.  And now your bank.

Lived and worked in Philly and was there when McNabb got drafted.  I told the guys I worked with they did not deserve him and that a worse bunch of people exist anywhere in the US.  They agreed with me - a ton of ridicules people there.  Then there is the sports radio which is a whole other level.  I don't think the baseball stadium has a jail like the Vet did so maybe things are improving - but duck in December if you are Santa.

Harper had better be REAL good otherwise he'll have 12 1/2 years of headaches and Boras will be nowhere to be found now that Harper will be 40 when this deal ends.

I don't know where the notion comes from that guys have to be team players. When they're under contract absolutely. Once that ends they're free men. After years of slaving around in the minors for piss poor wages, I don't blame them for trying to take advantage of every penny they can get their hands on. If he donated 100 million of that contract to charity would people still call him selfish? 

FWIW - The Nats have put together some very good teams in the past few years. And every year they prove to be soft and unable to perform on the big stage. I don't blame him for leaving

RJM posted:

Phillies fans can be excited today. In about years six through thirteen they will be constantly bitching about Harper. 

However, without knowing how the contract is structured it’s about 25M per year. 25M might be a great deal in a few years if Harper is still performing. 

I believe Harper is overrated. He plays hard and gets banged up. I don’t believe he has anything close to a thirteen year shelf life as a top producer. I see an end result similar to Pujols. 

In the short term I’m happy he’s not signing with the Dodgers or Cubs. While the Red Sox are in capable of getting to the World Series mode these two teams are the top threats. In the beginning I was hoping he wouldn’t end up on the Yankees or Astros. 

Astros were never a consideration, unless a short term pillow deal.  They've got some bills coming due in a few years.  You will see 3 of these 4 hit free agency.  Correa, Springer, Altuve and Bregman.  I hope they don't see Cole on FA market.

Not sure about the Yankees.  All the write ups are about how smart they have become with money, moves and player development.  But then again they took on G Stanton's deal.  Stanton's not even Lance Berkman, and that is with Berkman's broken down and old years included. Don't believe the born again Yankees.  

Familiar cries of "Not worth it" are yelled at the sky everytime a big deal is signed.  Player salaries as a percent of revenues are at their lowest level since the days of Curt Flood.

RJM, did Shaughnessy put down his scotch long enough to log his opinion?

Go44dad posted:

RJM posted:

Phillies fans can be excited today. In about years six through thirteen they will be constantly bitching about Harper. 

However, without knowing how the contract is structured it’s about 25M per year. 25M might be a great deal in a few years if Harper is still performing. 

I believe Harper is overrated. He plays hard and gets banged up. I don’t believe he has anything close to a thirteen year shelf life as a top producer. I see an end result similar to Pujols. 

In the short term I’m happy he’s not signing with the Dodgers or Cubs. While the Red Sox are in capable of getting to the World Series mode these two teams are the top threats. In the beginning I was hoping he wouldn’t end up on the Yankees or Astros. 

Astros were never a consideration, unless a short term pillow deal.  They've got some bills coming due in a few years.  You will see 3 of these 4 hit free agency.  Correa, Springer, Altuve and Bregman.  I hope they don't see Cole on FA market.

Not sure about the Yankees.  All the write ups are about how smart they have become with money, moves and player development.  But then again they took on G Stanton's deal.  Stanton's not even Lance Berkman, and that is with Berkman's broken down and old years included. Don't believe the born again Yankees.  

Familiar cries of "Not worth it" are yelled at the sky everytime a big deal is signed.  Player salaries as a percent of revenues are at their lowest level since the days of Curt Flood.

RJM, did Shaughnessy put down his scotch long enough to log his opinion?

He must be taking a few days off. There hasn’t been a column since Sunday. But given the news is from today it wouldn’t be until tomorrow anyway. 

Unfortunately Nick Carfado (beat writer and baseball notes reporter who dropped dead a few days ago) won’t have commentary. He was well connected throughout the league. With ten calls he would get ten opinions.

I’m surprised Bill Plaschke of the LA Times didn’t trash Harper for not signing with the Dodgers. He’s an angry, get off my lawn old timer.

Plaschke criticized the Dodgers. He said the length and the money are absurd. But he added with all the money the Dodgers make they could have afforded him. 

I think we know how the Phillies feel about adding the DH to the NL....

RJM posted:

MidAtlanticDad posted:

RJM posted:

Phillies fans can be excited today. In about years six through thirteen they will be constantly bitching about Harper. 

However, without knowing how the contract is structured it’s about 25M per year. 25M might be a great deal in a few years if Harper is still performing. 

 

What is this image I’m not seeing?

https://twitter.com/barstoolsp...211457201623042?s=12

luv baseball posted:

Lived and worked in Philly and was there when McNabb got drafted.  I told the guys I worked with they did not deserve him and that a worse bunch of people exist anywhere in the US.  They agreed with me - a ton of ridicules people there.  Then there is the sports radio which is a whole other level.  I don't think the baseball stadium has a jail like the Vet did so maybe things are improving - but duck in December if you are Santa.

Harper had better be REAL good otherwise he'll have 12 1/2 years of headaches and Boras will be nowhere to be found now that Harper will be 40 when this deal ends.

if Harper is like Mcnabb yes he is going to get vilified. I don't expect to see that, I see him being out of the Utley, Dykstra, Rose, Clark, Barkley, Iverson type who play hard. In Philly if you play hard you will loved, if you play hard and win you will write your own ticket. McNabb was a selfish, sensitive whiner who played his worst at the biggest moments...and then blamed others. I was a season ticket holder for just about his entire career, he was loved for years when he came to town. He got killed (rightfully so) at the end of career when his attitude and approach to the game changed. I actually blame Andy as much as Donnie Mac for the problems there. 

As far as your boorish, outdated and semi truthful comments on Philly I imagine there weren't many folks wishing you had stayed. It is a great area with awesome people...can't be a snowflake and survive in Philly. It is good you didn't go to NY or you wouldn't have made it long enough to leave. 

I have to imagine you weren't a fan of Wing Bowl either...another iconic event. 

how I see this deal is this.

Year 1-4 about market price fair enough

Year 4-7 assuming he continues his career path he may actually be a bargain. 

Year 8-13 will be diminishing returns with the end mostly likely not pretty on a value level. However with salaries what they are and have been 25m a year in a large market is not likely to be a major issue. 

Time will tell, has he to produce and stay healthy but it is possible that the Phightin Phils got a relative bargain here. 

old_school posted:

how I see this deal is this.

Year 1-4 about market price fair enough

Year 4-7 assuming he continues his career path he may actually be a bargain. 

Year 8-13 will be diminishing returns with the end mostly likely not pretty on a value level. However with salaries what they are and have been 25m a year in a large market is not likely to be a major issue. 

Time will tell, has he to produce and stay healthy but it is possible that the Phightin Phils got a relative bargain here. 

Good analysis...I'll add that if the new Collective Bargaining Agreement (needed for '22) enhances player compensation the way I think it will he might be a big bargain in the middle years.

Someone mentioned on Twitter if it was possible that he took a very small salary in the potential strike/walkout year (2022?), so that his potential loss of salary would be less?  Interesting if they thought that way.  

Harper playing hard?  In your dreams.  Count how many times he actually runs to first...or the number of bad pitches he continues to swing at....Yes he has power and gets his HRs in, but in between he shows what and who he cares about.  We loved him in DC because of his take no prisoners attitude and he wanted to make baseball fun again, and that's a clown question bro etc.  But we mostly stopped loving him two seasons ago.  Still, he could have had what he ended up getting from the Nats.  They offered him 300/10 last fall.  Boras wanted to test the free agent market, and that soured the Nats ownership on even revisiting their original offer.  I am positive the Nats would have given him that deal.  

Let's come back next year and compare Juan Soto to Bryce.  Let's come back in 10 years and see hard he played, if he is still playing and if the $ was worth it.

And to answer the person who said these players are entitled to get what they can.  Bryce never suffered through minor league pay.  He has no college debt ha ha.  He could have been the kind of guy that said I want to stay here and win the series, give me x and take the extra to build a championship team.  He could have been loyal. Yes these guys have every right to go and get every last dollar for their families and their future.  But they don't have to, and plenty of players have proved their loyalty by locking up before becoming free agents, by taking pay cuts or being creative with the structures of their contract, by simply staying put and letting all the little boys and girls who have jerseys with their names on them still want to wear them.  I know I am not in that situation so it is easy to sit hear and judge, but I for one and am not sorry to see Harper leave.  The Nats just improved their defense by a LOT and will still have the big bats and parted ways with a selfish immature player who we will now get to see still strike out and this time cheer.

MidAtlanticDad posted:

RJM posted:

MidAtlanticDad posted:

RJM posted:

Phillies fans can be excited today. In about years six through thirteen they will be constantly bitching about Harper. 

However, without knowing how the contract is structured it’s about 25M per year. 25M might be a great deal in a few years if Harper is still performing. 

 

What is this image I’m not seeing?

https://twitter.com/barstoolsp...211457201623042?s=12

LOL. I saw a similar one.

https://twitter.com/paulhembo/status/1101212012707758080

TWOBOYS ... Are you still at your first employer out of loyalty? Of did you find out what you’re worth at some point? 

I'm retired and sadly no one ever paid me millions of dollars a year to play a sport I love, so no going there RJM.  It is comparing an apple and kiwi.  But yes, you opened the door, so in fact I turned down SEVERAL more lucrative jobs during my life because I did not want to move or uproot my family or I did not want to live in X.  I turned down Goldman Sachs in fact, just to name one, and there are not many people who can say that from 1990. 

There are always factors beyond $ in any job move, even for professional athletes.  Bryce for example wanted a LT deal.  That appears to have been important to him.  

Other athletes value the team that drafted them and often stay because they want to spend their career there.  That does not make them better people or guys who leave for more money bad people.  It is just about what is important to you, the person that matters.  In my view, in the case of Bryce Harper, he has always valued himself over the team.  Which he can do.  Good luck in Philly for the next 13 years Bryce.  That's all I'm saying.  

Twoboys posted:

I'm retired and sadly no one ever paid me millions of dollars a year to play a sport I love, so no going there RJM.  It is comparing an apple and kiwi.  But yes, you opened the door, so in fact I turned down SEVERAL more lucrative jobs during my life because I did not want to move or uproot my family or I did not want to live in X.  I turned down Goldman Sachs in fact, just to name one, and there are not many people who can say that from 1990. 

There are always factors beyond $ in any job move, even for professional athletes.  Bryce for example wanted a LT deal.  That appears to have been important to him.  

Other athletes value the team that drafted them and often stay because they want to spend their career there.  That does not make them better people or guys who leave for more money bad people.  It is just about what is important to you, the person that matters.  In my view, in the case of Bryce Harper, he has always valued himself over the team.  Which he can do.  Good luck in Philly for the next 13 years Bryce.  That's all I'm saying.  

 

You avoided the question. Anyone in demand has turned down offers. But you never once moved on for better pay? 

old_school posted:

luv baseball posted:

Lived and worked in Philly and was there when McNabb got drafted.  I told the guys I worked with they did not deserve him and that a worse bunch of people exist anywhere in the US.  They agreed with me - a ton of ridicules people there.  Then there is the sports radio which is a whole other level.  I don't think the baseball stadium has a jail like the Vet did so maybe things are improving - but duck in December if you are Santa.

Harper had better be REAL good otherwise he'll have 12 1/2 years of headaches and Boras will be nowhere to be found now that Harper will be 40 when this deal ends.

if Harper is like Mcnabb yes he is going to get vilified. I don't expect to see that, I see him being out of the Utley, Dykstra, Rose, Clark, Barkley, Iverson type who play hard. In Philly if you play hard you will loved, if you play hard and win you will write your own ticket. McNabb was a selfish, sensitive whiner who played his worst at the biggest moments...and then blamed others. I was a season ticket holder for just about his entire career, he was loved for years when he came to town. He got killed (rightfully so) at the end of career when his attitude and approach to the game changed. I actually blame Andy as much as Donnie Mac for the problems there. 

As far as your boorish, outdated and semi truthful comments on Philly I imagine there weren't many folks wishing you had stayed. It is a great area with awesome people...can't be a snowflake and survive in Philly. It is good you didn't go to NY or you wouldn't have made it long enough to leave. 

I have to imagine you weren't a fan of Wing Bowl either...another iconic event. 

Every W by the Iggles was "We're going to the Super Bowl!"  every loss was "They're nothing but garbage!"  17 times a year - bye weeks got crazy because half the people thought they won and the other half thought they lost.  It was hysterical to watch everyone bleed out every week.  Say what you want about McNabb but except for a year or two when White was there it was a sinkhole for almost 20 years until McNabb and Reid made them a professional outfit.

Was around when they had the first WIng Bowl and it was embarrassing.  It was WWE meets stupidity & gluttony.  They must be up to 25 by now...What a mess.

The people were great on an everyday basis especially the South Philly crowd but something weird happened whenever the Iggles or Flyers played.  The funniest part to me was they were in on the joke - they knew they were stupid and reveled in it.  I admired them for that because they had no shame in who they were.  I took plenty of crap from them but it was all good natured (never mean or hurtful) and gave as good as I got.  Been called a "Stand up guy" by all of them.  In my 30 years of knowing Philly/South Jersey folks it is generally as high a compliment as you can get from them.

Maybe the town changed in the last 20 years since I left - but the people I still know from there haven't.  Hope Wentz gets back his form - he'll be in for a rough ride if he doesn't.  St Nick might not be there to bail him out next year.

For what it's worth WFAN callers in NY are in the same league.  Was there when that abortion on humanity was inflicted in the 80's and not only survived but thrived.    

I lived in a suburb of Philadelphia for eighteen years. There’s no doubt the fans are bi-polar. When I moved there I started out as a secondary to Boston teams fair weather Philadelphia fan except for the Sixers (no frick’n chance growing up a Celtics fan). Then I discovered Philadelphia sports talk radio callers were the best entertainment available after a Philadelphia team loses.

I always explained Philadelphia to friends as not being the best place to live for any one thing like many other cities claim. But overall it’s a good place to live. I’m still there about every three months. One trip is a Red Sox versus Orioles and Phillies trip.

I thought Eagles fans might act like they finally got ****** after not winning a championship in most fan’s lifetimes. But they were worse than ever. I came prepared with my Gimme Five tee to keep them at bay. One thing Boston sports fans have learned real well from Yankees fans is how to be incredibly obnoxious about winning. 

 Of course, this tee is now obsolete.

13 years but its ages 26-38. The last couple years probably won't be great -- 37 and 38 year olds generally aren't -- but many thought he would get $330/10, so the last three years can be a throwaway.

He took the most money, which is what free agents always do:

https://deadspin.com/these-wer...er-offers-1832983665

"And the Nationals’ reported 10-year, $300 million offer made to Harper before the end of the regular season? It included so much deferred money (it would have paid Harper through the year 2053) that its present-day value wasn’t in the same ballpark as the other offers. $184 million, according to Verducci, or $240 million, per the Post’s Neil Greenberg. The math on deferred contracts is tricky, but since the former figure is coming via Boras and the latter via the Nats, you should feel safe pegging the true value as somewhere in between."

RJM - have to agree on the Yanks fans - but Belichick said while visiting MetLife with Parcells - there's the two we won and the two we gave'em.  Gotta love the when we lose we're still better point of view.  Warm fuzzies from everyone!

Just remember that was the Nats first offer.  Their starting point -- could have negotiated but Boras/Haper chose not to ever negotiate.  No one ever starts the discussion with their best offer!

And no RJM, I have only moved for worse pay actually.  Never for better.  But I know that is unusual and not the norm.  

Twoboys posted:

Just remember that was the Nats first offer.  Their starting point -- could have negotiated but Boras/Haper chose not to ever negotiate.  No one ever starts the discussion with their best offer!

And no RJM, I have only moved for worse pay actually.  Never for better.  But I know that is unusual and not the norm.  

 

That offer was so pathetic that it really wasn't an offer. Harper doesn't owe the Nationals a courtest of refusal, nor are they entitled to his attention. When they go that bad on lowballing, they have failed to earn those things.