How much does having the sign help a hitter?

some hitters don't like to know what's coming, but many hitters can hit a bullet if they know it's coming. if it wasn't a big deal they wouldn't worry so much about stealing signs.

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Originally posted by dusty delso:
some hitters don't like to know what's coming, but many hitters can hit a bullet if they know it's coming. if it wasn't a big deal they wouldn't worry so much about stealing signs.

Is it a big deal because it makes a big difference or because people THINK it makes a big difference? In my experience, the AVERAGE HS player can’t even square it up very well in BP, so I can’t see them doing much better in a game where everything isn’t geared to help them hit the ball, even if they were told the pitch type and location, and the pitcher could execute perfectly.

A lot

The better the hitter, the more it matters to know what is coming.

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Originally posted by baseballpapa:
The better the hitter, the more it matters to know what is coming.

I can go along with that easily enough. So now I guess the question becomes, out of a lineup of 9 HS players, how many are really going to benefit enough to warrant spending the time to make it possible?

Just for the sake of ease, how about we eliminate all non-varsity players from consideration? That leaves us approximately 16,000 teams X 9 players in the lineup or about 144,000 starting HSV players. So out of the 9 players chosen to start and hit, what percentage would warrant spending the time?

I think it would surely vary from team to team, but I can’t see an average of more than 1 player on every team reaping much of a benefit. If I’m correct, it boils down to the same thing these things always boil down to. If you’ve got 4 or 5 players who could really benefit, you spend the time. Anything less than that, IMHO its just not worth all the time and trouble.

It makes a whole lot of difference. 2-0,3-1 fastball counts? Good hitters feast on those counts. Because they usually look for a fastball and they get one.

For every player at every level, it makes a difference. I've done hitting drills with 6 yr olds up through early college players. When you drill with a steady speed and movement, performance is at level x. When you drill with varied speeds and movement, performance is less than x. Period. Remember the saying...
"Hitting is timing, pitching is disrupting the hitter's timing". Very true.

Now, that is assuming you are 100% sure you have the signs. HS signs should be at least complex or disguised enough (i.e.- include indicators and wipes) that this should rarely happen.

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Is it a big deal because it makes a big difference or because people THINK it makes a big difference? In my experience, the AVERAGE HS player can’t even square it up very well in BP, so I can’t see them doing much better in a game where everything isn’t geared to help them hit the ball, even if they were told the pitch type and location, and the pitcher could execute perfectly.

What does make a a HUGE difference to a good hitter, even at the HS level, is knowing that a FB is coming! If a good hitter can look "Dead Red" without any doubts, he WILL have a field day...

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Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:

quote:

Originally posted by baseballpapa:
The better the hitter, the more it matters to know what is coming.

I can go along with that easily enough. So now I guess the question becomes, out of a lineup of 9 HS players, how many are really going to benefit enough to warrant spending the time to make it possible?

Just for the sake of ease, how about we eliminate all non-varsity players from consideration? That leaves us approximately 16,000 teams X 9 players in the lineup or about 144,000 starting HSV players. So out of the 9 players chosen to start and hit, what percentage would warrant spending the time?

I think it would surely vary from team to team, but I can’t see an average of more than 1 player on every team reaping much of a benefit. If I’m correct, it boils down to the same thing these things always boil down to. If you’ve got 4 or 5 players who could really benefit, you spend the time. Anything less than that, IMHO its just not worth all the time and trouble.

Now your question makes absolutely no sense to me.

Oversimplified, but to succeed at the plate you have to do 3 things: pick a good pitch to hit, make a good swing, and time the pitch correctly. If you know what pitch is coming you've practically eliminated 33% of the equation.

Doesn't mean every kid who knows a fastball is coming is going to **** all over it, but being able to look for only one pitch helps immensely.

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Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
...how many are really going to benefit enough to warrant spending the time to make it possible?

What exactly are you spending time doing? We have kids on the bench trying to pick signs during the game, but we don't waste allotted practice time on it.

If I was in a slump I wanted to know everything there was to know about the next pitching coming - type, speed, location, movement. If I wasn't in a slump I never thought for one second about what was coming. See the ball, hit the ball.

It's such an individual thing I doubt you will get a valid percentage or study to even conduct.

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Originally posted by Prime9:
Now your question makes absolutely no sense to me.

Why not? All I’m asking is, where’s the cutoff? Almost everyone agrees that it’s the better hitters who will benefit, and I’m trying to get a handle on the percentage of hitters it will help. If there’s no one on the team that could be considered a “good” hitter, it would make more sense to spend time on improving their fundamentals than worrying about stealing signs.

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Originally posted by Prime9:
What does make a a HUGE difference to a good hitter, even at the HS level, is knowing that a FB is coming! If a good hitter can look "Dead Red" without any doubts, he WILL have a field day...

Are you saying he’ll not only do better, but perhaps double or triple his success and production?

That’s an interesting concept, but I don’t know of any way to test it in the real world because 1st there would need to be an agreement on what a “good” HS hitter is, and 2nd there would have to be agreement on what a “field day”, or rather success was.

Coming to such agreements is nearly impossible, which is why these things are so difficult to resolve.

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Originally posted by coach2709:
If I was in a slump I wanted to know everything there was to know about the next pitching coming - type, speed, location, movement. If I wasn't in a slump I never thought for one second about what was coming. See the ball, hit the ball.

It's such an individual thing I doubt you will get a valid percentage or study to even conduct.

That pretty much exemplifies why asked the question. People TEND to jump to some pretty big conclusions when talking baseball, but conclusions aren’t always valid because the individuals seldom think alike.

Time? it takes about 1 minute to explain how we relay signs from 2nd if they are simple.
it takes another minute if they are hanging them out for 3rd or 1st base coach to see.

we discuss this when we have a rainy day and we are stuck inside....

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Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:

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Originally posted by Prime9:
Now your question makes absolutely no sense to me.

Why not? All I’m asking is, where’s the cutoff? Almost everyone agrees that it’s the better hitters who will benefit, and I’m trying to get a handle on the percentage of hitters it will help. If there’s no one on the team that could be considered a “good” hitter, it would make more sense to spend time on improving their fundamentals than worrying about stealing signs.

STATS; if the basis for asking the question was to determine whether time is best spent stealing signs or teaching fundamentals, at the HS level, I'd advocate teaching fundamentals always.

There are some things in life that you can't quantify, like are blonds, brunettes or red heads the best looking? Your question is probably another. As you leave HS, you will witness that every position player handles an average FB. They may not be able to cope with exceptional heat; mid to high 90's. The best hitters, however, can and much prefer that pitch to any other (generally speaking).

That being said, if a "good" advanced hitter, can eliminate off-speed pitches from his thinking when facing a hard thrower, or knows it is coming (because pitcher is tipping his pitches, or he has the sign) he will fare better than his best average.

As you say, no way to quantify it. But, the higher you go, the bigger the perceived advantage is thus the finely developed art of stealing signs.

Can you teach a hitter to predict his pitch?

Bob

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Originally posted by Bob Williams:
Can you teach a hitter to predict his pitch?

Bob

I'm going to say no to this but I think you can teach a hitter to understand tendencies or what counts is typically a certain pitch to be thrown. But to predict the pitch - no.

Many years ago at the College Coaches Convention,
Don Mattingly was "on stage" with Tony Gwynn.

He said "I can predict my pitch".

He said; if I crowd the plate the pitcher will pitch inside and if I back "off" the plate, the pitcher will pitch outside. He further mentioned his adjustments. Tell you later.

Ted Williams said "proper thinking".

When you are hitting, always remember no one can help you. "You are on you own"

Question: how would you hit off of Bob Gibson?

Bob

on the question are blondes, brunettes or redheads better looking, i say yes as long as they're female. i don't know what league you play in up in northern california, but my son played summer ball for norcal two summers ago and the baseball was very good. if an average hitter knows what's coming it makes him better. how many one run games did you play in last year. as far as time it takes, next to nothing. guy on 2nd gets the sign and a step to 3rd is fastball, a step toward 2nd is off speed, didn't get it stay where you are. catchers that allow base coaches to see and you can use verbal signals from the coach.

takes no effort at all. and if you can't hit it doesn't matter if you put it on a tee, might as well play the piano or get the dreaded girlfriend who ruins as many ballplayers as the other stuff.

keith hernandez in his book pure baseball describes watching a game pitch by pitch. by the second inning he is calling pitches.

if the catcher moves inside to set up before the pitch is thrown what is coming 90+% of the time, fastball.

it's just how much effort you want to put in it

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Can you teach a hitter to predict his pitch?

Yes. Don't all hitters look for their pitch? Don't all hitters know that in certain counts you should expect certain pitches depending on the pitcher? I see it all the time. DO they get it right all the time? Nope. But get it right a couple of times in a game and you are good to go.

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He said "I can predict my pitch".

Sounds like he (Mattingly) was affecting location more than pitch selection?

I do think a smart hitter can deak a pitcher into throwing to an area he prefers, or is looking for. And yes, sometimes that also influences pitch selection.

I've tried to discern what the good hitters prefer, do they guess or do they hit off the FB? When I think I have determined what most do, someone will come along and say the opposite.

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Originally posted by Prime9:

quote:

He said "I can predict my pitch".

Sounds like he (Mattingly) was affecting location more than pitch selection?

While I agree with your sentiment, you must remember, Mattingly is a God. Perhaps the real God. Anything he says should be take at face value as complete and utter gospel. Had Joe Morgan said this I would agree with you. But it was Donnie Baseball.

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Question: how would you hit off of Bob Gibson?

I would have faked a migraine that day and asked for the day off!

Honestly, his fastball was so good that he could throw it by most anyone. His other pitches, slider and curve were plus plus. He said the slider made him, not sure I agree. I wouldn't want to be beat by the FB so would have to look for it and hope he threw that and or a slider that didn't bite, in an area I could handle. Most didn't get their guess pitch or couldn't handle the FB and as a result walked back to the dugout.

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Originally posted by dusty delso:… i don't know what league you play in up in northern california, but my son played summer ball for norcal two summers ago and the baseball was very good. if an average hitter knows what's coming it makes him better.

I think its safe to say that NORCAL doesn’t exactly field average ball players. Think about the real “AVERAGE” HS player and ask yourself how much it would help him.

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how many one run games did you play in last year.

5

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as far as time it takes, next to nothing. guy on 2nd gets the sign and a step to 3rd is fastball, a step toward 2nd is off speed, didn't get it stay where you are. catchers that allow base coaches to see and you can use verbal signals from the coach.

Is your assumption that all players have the ability to unerringly steal signs and relay them to the batter, and that the batter will unerringly get them and be able to act on them as well?

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takes no effort at all.

Well, as far as I know, everything takes some effort.

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and if you can't hit it doesn't matter if you put it on a tee, might as well play the piano or get the dreaded girlfriend who ruins as many ballplayers as the other stuff.

And that’s why I keep asking if would help the AVERAGE player.

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And that’s why I keep asking if would help the AVERAGE player.

in actuality, not much helps the average player. And before I cause an uproar let me elaborate by saying, if it were so, would he continue to remain average?

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Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:

Is your assumption that all players have the ability to unerringly steal signs and relay them to the batter, and that the batter will unerringly get them and be able to act on them as well?

Not all. But 90+%

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
in actuality, not much helps the average player. And before I cause an uproar let me elaborate by saying, if it were so, would he continue to remain average?

Very astute observation!

I don’t know exactly why, but people in forums like this tend to think about HSB players in terms of the better players rather than the average or poorer players. Maybe its because its unlikely anyone would frequent places like this if their son was an average or poor players.

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Originally posted by ironhorse: Not all. But 90+%

In all seriousness, if that’s what happens in your experience, I think you’re a very lucky person.

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Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:

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Originally posted by ironhorse: Not all. But 90+%

In all seriousness, if that’s what happens in your experience, I think you’re a very lucky person.

I don't really think I'm lucky. It's just easy. If we get the signs at 2b it's because it's a simple system the other team is using, not because we're geniuses. We then communicate FB, offspeed, or "I don't know" to the guy at the plate in a simple manner. He then acts on them. Now I'm not saying "act" means double in the gap. It means he knows whats coming and adjusts his actions accordingly.

Ironhorse I like your system of letting guys know by the leads being taken but what if you have a guy at the plate who doens't want to know what's coming? Do you just let him do his thing or does he still have to know?

I hated knowing what was coming because I would tend to overthink things and freeze. I just wanted to see it out of the hand and hit.

As for the predicting of a pitch after reading the responses I think it wasn't a very good question. There are several factors that go into a pitch - location, type, speed, movement / break. Put those together and you have a pitch. Can you get to where you know the tendency of a pitcher in those areas? Yes but you'll never know 100% what's coming. Can you influence one or two of these on every pitch (for example location) so you always get it like Mattingly was talking about? Yes I believe you can.

But to know EXACTLY what pitch with all facets is coming each pitch is impossible.

It helped this guy to know what pitch was coming!!!

It was like he knew what pitch was coming. Click here

Partially depends on hitter's preferences. However, if I have a team that has the signs, and your team doesn't have the signs... I'm going to win most of the time.