how to handle talking to coaches about.....

It’s not interfering to discuss prior injuries and ongoing health with a coach. It’s best to request an appointment in an email rather than approach the coach on the field.

If the coach makes it an issue go up the ladder. The next step would be the AD. If it’s middle school and there isn’t an AD it’s whomever is in charge of sports. Next would be the principal.

Be polite. Don’t be a know it all. Make the conversation about your son’s health not a power trip regardless of how the coach responds.

How old is your son? How old was he at the time of the injury and how severe was it? What's your background or expertise for developing a pitching program?

Does your son share your concerns? Has he talked to the coach?

Generally on this site, the one time people say you can talk to coaches is about your child's health. Having said that, though, I would be careful to weigh your own expertise relative to the coach's and maybe approach it more as an opportunity to ask questions and better understand the coach's approach than to tell him how he should be doing things.

Welcome to the site.  Can you be a bit more specific about the things the HS P coach had him do that were causing discomfort and of concern?  If there is some logic behind the concerns and something that your PT can also speak to, your path may be easier than otherwise.  I think you are right to be concerned and proactive with any arm care issues.  I don't know yet if this might apply here but sometimes even correct adjustments will feel weird/different to a pitcher.  But, not painful.

he is 13 now and was 11 when he had it. it was severe enough they had to put it in a cast. I have never developed a pitcher or have a background as an expert. my ambition for knowledge is driven by just being a concerned dad. I know enough to be dangerous but far from and expert. We have worked with Private pitching coaches and they have worked with him to get him this far. what the school teaches is the opposite of what his pitching coach teaches.

I just don't want two different pitching philosophies and him being pulled in different directions. Great advise, thank you. I will just approach it from a past injury narrative.

crooked posted:

he is 13 now and was 11 when he had it. it was severe enough they had to put it in a cast. I have never developed a pitcher or have a background as an expert. my ambition for knowledge is driven by just being a concerned dad. I know enough to be dangerous but far from and expert. We have worked with Private pitching coaches and they have worked with him to get him this far. what the school teaches is the opposite of what his pitching coach teaches.

I just don't want two different pitching philosophies and him being pulled in different directions. Great advise, thank you. I will just approach it from a past injury narrative.

I think the fact that you go into it knowing and willing to admit to a lack of expertise will help the conversation immensely. You also might talk to the PC a little about what the school coach is saying and why it might or might not be a good thing.

We were lucky in that we are in a small town, and son's PC is regarded as sort of the godfather of baseball here. If anyone tried to mess with anything about his game at that age, I could just say, "I'm the mom, I just drive. If you want to do anything with his motion or throwing or whatever you need to talk to the PC" and they immediately backed off. Or sometimes they talked to him and agreed on an approach.

IOWAMOM23 Thank you for the advise. I want to get in front of it a quickly as possible. Hopefully the conversation with the coach will be eventful.

crooked posted:

 We have worked with Private pitching coaches and they have worked with him to get him this far. what the school teaches is the opposite of what his pitching coach teaches.

Can you elaborate a little? It may really help answer your question. Without knowledge of the issues my response is anywhere from "leave it alone" to "call CPS."

Coaches will teach different things, and not always is one "right" and one "wrong."

Totally agree with Iowamom...  communicate something to the extent of....

-Son had a previous arm injury serious enough that it was in a cast. 

-The PT and his Pitching instructor have come up with a mechanic and arm motion that works well with son and is safe on his arm. 

-I'm just the dad/mom.  I will totally stay in the background and support the team/program but his arm health is obviously one issue that requires our direct attention and involvement.  

Then maybe suggest some level of collaboration or at least communication among the "experts involved" to come to an agreement on safe and proper mechanic/arm action for your son moving forward.  Since you said the current PC is teaching the opposite mechanic, there is certainly a possibility that this does not go smooth as butter initially and obviously depends largely on the response by the school coach but it seems necessary.  Do be open to the fact that there are more than one generally accepted pitching mechanic/philosophies.    

Awareness of the severity of the previous injury should make it more likely that the new coach will be willing to take extra precautions that he is not putting your son in harm's way.  

PS to add - also agree with Ironhorse... detail still missing.

Ironhorse: He said his coach was making him turn his hand towards second base at heel plant causing stress on his elbow and shoulder. In turn causing him arm pain. he said there was no benefit from the change and his velo and command actually where worse

.   

crooked posted:

Ironhorse: He said his coach was making him turn his hand towards second base at heel plant causing stress on his elbow and shoulder. In turn causing him arm pain. he said there was no benefit from the change and his velo and command actually where worse

.   

Oh, the Tommy John Twist?

http://clients.chrisoleary.com...y-John-Surgery-Twist

Skeptical about this guy.  But still read his stuff.  

As a High school coach I tell my parents to let me know of any arm issues from the past.  I also tell them that they need to see our trainer if anything is bothering them.  If they don't see the trainer and don't tell me then they keep throwing.  After they see trainer then only the trainer can release them.  I also wear an apple watch and tell parent to text me during the game if they see their kid in pain.  If found that kids don't want to show they are in pain or hurt because they are intimated by a head coach especially when they are young.  I also tell my parents if they are playing for another team and that coach is doing something that will hurt their kid (very high pitch counts or throwing all junk) that they should walk on the field and remove their kid themselves.  

I know I'm not normal on that stuff but I had a high school coach that overused me and even when I told them I was hurt he left me in the game.  I went from 86-87 velo to never throwing over 80 again after surgery.  I was still able to play college baseball but not at the level I believe I should have been able to play at.  

Also I don't think any good high school coach has a problem talking to a parent about a kid and what is best for the kid.  You know your son better than anyone else.  I won't discuss playing time but I will discuss why we do things a certain way.

When it comes to health and money you can talk to the Coach.  Great suggestions above.

13....so junior high?   Wow, in junior high here now,  we're lucky to have coaches capable of filling out a lineup let alone worry about being a "pitching coach" lol.  I coached junior high when my son played.  We were good and I actually feel like I taught kids things.  I went last year and watched a couple games.  It was brutal...guys getting picked off of first regularly because they didn't know how to take a lead....kids having no idea what to do with balls hit in the infield....pitchers having no idea what it meant to hold a runer, etc, etc, etc.  I think you should definitely contact the  coach....explain the situation and hope he understands the issue.

crooked posted:

Ironhorse: He said his coach was making him turn his hand towards second base at heel plant causing stress on his elbow and shoulder. In turn causing him arm pain. he said there was no benefit from the change and his velo and command actually where worse

.   

13 is a big year for these guys. First year on the big field & often first chance to play school ball. My first suggestion would be to not have him play, at all, away from Middle School while the season is in session. Stay away from travel on the weekends, especially if your guy is a mound guy. It is simply too much throwing.

With respect to the Coach's advice, it is well intended but incorrect. The correct & safer hand position is to have the ball facing SS at the top. If the conversation with the coach does not solve it, I would tell my guy to say "yes sir" when told to face the ball to 2nd base at the top, then proceed to offset it & properly show it to SS when he actually threw. The difference is subtle & as long as your guy has success & shows results, the quest to change it will end. 

Assuming he is a RHP.

I am going to recommend something that more then likely will piss off a few coaches. Just to clarify, I am also a HS football coach and coached HS baseball until my sons soph year. If he has made mechanical changes that improved arm health and performance and the coach is recommended something as archaic as pointing the ball to 2B, then my recommendation to him is just ignore the coaching that is contradicting good mechanics/arm health. Notice...I did not say to ignore all coaching from this coach...just the pitching changes that your son (or yourself) knows will cause arm health issues for him. 

He can do this in a respectful way by acknowledging (nodding or "yes coach") the coaching cues. He then gets on the mound or begins his flat pen doing the things he has worked on to get to the point he is at now. In my experience...coaches will generally leave a pitcher alone if he is commanding the zone with no significant velocity change. I mean...what is the coach going to do...bench him because he is not pointing the ball towards 2B?

Trust me...this is only the beginning. As a P, your son is going to get coached up a lot over the next 4-5 years. Some of it will be extremely beneficial and some of it will be crap (ball to 2B). He has to learn to filter out the crap on his own at some point.

I know that I have had players (both football and baseball) work with other coaches over the years with some of those coaches contradicting my coaching cues, technique, etc. The only time I ever expressed frustration was when a player was disrespectful in regards to my instruction. I once had a varsity player (while I was a JV coach) whisper to his buddy that he did not have to listen to my recommendation because I was not his coach. Obviously, that did not go over very well!

I just don't know that you need to initiate a conversation with the HC at this point. If your son continues to do what is working for him and the coach continues to try and make changes, I would definitely set up a meeting with HC. If your son continues doing what works for him and has success, my money is on the coach leaving him alone.

coachld posted:

..

He can do this in a respectful way by acknowledging (nodding or "yes coach") the coaching cues. He then gets on the mound or begins his flat pen doing the things he has worked on to get to the point he is at now. ...

Trust me...this is only the beginning. As a P, your son is going to get coached up a lot over the next 4-5 years. Some of it will be extremely beneficial and some of it will be crap (ball to 2B). He has to learn to filter out the crap on his own at some point.

...The only time I ever expressed frustration was when a player was disrespectful in regards to my instruction.

I get that this happens but how many 13 y.o.'s can distinguish between coaching instruction that is beneficial and crap?  How many 13 y.o.'s will be likely to take this advice as open invitation they can/should selectively ignore coaches?  Very slippery slope.

I agree with what you say about being very frustrated as a coach when a player was disrespectful in regards to instruction.  Well, for me, it doesn't get much more disrespectful than a player lying to my face by saying "yes sir" with every intent to ignore my instruction.  I'm sure I don't catch it every time but I catch it plenty.  Not a good place for the player to be with me.  JMO.

I will throw out my broken record message... we tell players constantly - if you are getting conflicting instruction, SPEAK UP and we will work through it.  At every level, I will always advise to at least try to talk through the conflicting instruction with all parties first.  

Thank you all for the advise. 

crooked posted:

Thank you all for the advise. 

First thing you learn on this site is when you ask a question, you'll get LOTS of advice, and rarely does it all agree!! Enjoy, and good luck.

My son is 14. He’s trained with Ron Wolforth since he was 7. He is extremely religious to what he’s been taught and won’t follow any instruction that goes against what he’s learned there. When he started JH ball, we talked with the coach & asked that he not change anything with his mechanics & also laid down our requirements for pitch limits & that we will not allow him to pitch back to back days. We made it clear that we felt strongly enough about it that he wouldn’t play if it was an issue. Our coach accepted the stipulations & we haven’t had any problems.  I think you just have to be clear upfront, but I can see how some coaches may not appreciate it; however, our son’s arm is very important to us & we won’t risk it. 

Go44dad posted:

crooked posted:

Ironhorse: He said his coach was making him turn his hand towards second base at heel plant causing stress on his elbow and shoulder. In turn causing him arm pain. he said there was no benefit from the change and his velo and command actually where worse

.   

Oh, the Tommy John Twist?

http://clients.chrisoleary.com...y-John-Surgery-Twist

Skeptical about this guy.  But still read his stuff.  

Wish he would remove those pictures of Jose Fernandez.

Seriously, the guy steals all of his info from other sources.  

TPM posted:

Go44dad posted:

crooked posted:

Ironhorse: He said his coach was making him turn his hand towards second base at heel plant causing stress on his elbow and shoulder. In turn causing him arm pain. he said there was no benefit from the change and his velo and command actually where worse

.   

Oh, the Tommy John Twist?

http://clients.chrisoleary.com...y-John-Surgery-Twist

Skeptical about this guy.  But still read his stuff.  

Wish he would remove those pictures of Jose Fernandez.

Seriously, the guy steals all of his info from other sources.  

There is no way I buy that he predicted all those injuries.  Sounds like another shameless self-promoter to me.

Crooked,

Again welcome.

My advice, FWIW, if it were my son, I would skip the pitching and just work on learning how to pitch properly  using his FB, introducing new pitches slowly, from a good instructor. 

Make an appointment with the HC, let him know your sons prior history.  Perhaps just being a position player might be in his best interest.  Perhaps he might allow him an inning or 2 occassionally.

Mine started pitching at 9. If we had a do over, it wouldn't be until 14.

Go44dad posted:

crooked posted:

Ironhorse: He said his coach was making him turn his hand towards second base at heel plant causing stress on his elbow and shoulder. In turn causing him arm pain. he said there was no benefit from the change and his velo and command actually where worse

.   

Oh, the Tommy John Twist?

http://clients.chrisoleary.com...y-John-Surgery-Twist

Skeptical about this guy.  But still read his stuff.  

In Jeff Passan’s book “The Arm” he references wannabe charlatans. He dedicated six pages to O’Leary. He used to post here until people who know what they’re talking about mocked him off the board. Experts are usually labeled as such by others who recognize greatness. Charlatans spend a lot of time telling you how great they are. 

TPM posted:

Go44dad posted:

crooked posted:

Ironhorse: He said his coach was making him turn his hand towards second base at heel plant causing stress on his elbow and shoulder. In turn causing him arm pain. he said there was no benefit from the change and his velo and command actually where worse

.   

Oh, the Tommy John Twist?

http://clients.chrisoleary.com...y-John-Surgery-Twist

Skeptical about this guy.  But still read his stuff.  

Wish he would remove those pictures of Jose Fernandez.

Seriously, the guy steals all of his info from other sources.  

He disappeared from the internet for a while. He wasn’t delivering paid for orders of his online book. He was being sued for plagiarism. 

adbono posted:

TPM posted:

Go44dad posted:

crooked posted:

Ironhorse: He said his coach was making him turn his hand towards second base at heel plant causing stress on his elbow and shoulder. In turn causing him arm pain. he said there was no benefit from the change and his velo and command actually where worse

.   

Oh, the Tommy John Twist?

http://clients.chrisoleary.com...y-John-Surgery-Twist

Skeptical about this guy.  But still read his stuff.  

Wish he would remove those pictures of Jose Fernandez.

Seriously, the guy steals all of his info from other sources.  

There is no way I buy that he predicted all those injuries.  Sounds like another shameless self-promoter to me.

This past week a poster who posts here was on another site taking O’Leary apart by posting all his contradictory posts over time. 

RJM,

O'Leary has already called out this topic on his Twitter feed.

For what it's worth, my son was recently told that he was a glorified "thrower" and not a pitcher. He always had great timing and has an uncanny way to catch up and be right when pitching with fast hips. He has also been told he has the fastest arm seen by a few coaches or two. He still has "flaws" in his mechanics but he is doing okay on the mound. All this being said, sometimes you need to take the basic instruction and apply it and see what works for you. Many along the way will try to tinker and convince you otherwise. Great advice so far, best of luck to your son. 13 is a big year on a big field.. Personally..i think it was the most boring season of baseball we had since we stepped up to 60/90 at that time. 

dTPM posted:

RJM,

O'Leary has already called out this topic on his Twitter feed.

 

Like all false, egomaniacal gods he has to constantly defend himself to his followers so they don’t stray. He’s should call his theories The Koresh Method.

It would be fun to watch your son take him apart in a debate on pitching. O’Leary once posted a video of himself throwing a pitch on Eteamz (now defunct discussion board). I wish I had saved it. It’s fall down funny. It’s a credibilty killer.

Firm believer that there is a right way and a wrong way to pitch. There are only really a very few guys who can fix the flaws so that injury doesn't occur. 

Most don't know what they are talking about. IMO, a junior high school pitching coach probably is one of them.

1.  I'm glad your son talked to you and was aware of the proper mechanics that will keep his arm as healthy as possible.

2.   I would talk to the coach about previous arm history and let him know that you had him evaluated and it was recommended he throw a certain way    ball towards ss/3b  not cf etc to avoid future injury.  

3.  It's middle school I wouldn't sweat it,  if it was high school I might be more concerned.

4.  Just to clarify  your son wasn't in pain from following coach's suggestions was he?    If he was I would be careful about pitching,  good mechanics are key but I wouldn't think 1 session of bad mechanics would result in pain right away.  

I will chip in one more comment on the "show the ball to 2nd base" theory & why it is simply incorrect "terminology" on pitching mechanics.

Do this simple test yourself: Stand up & simulate a stride towards home plate (spread out your legs & point front toe to RH batters box). Raise your glove arm as you would at delivery & extend it towards home plate. Take your throwing hand (RHP) & raise it shoulder height & extend it back. Act as if you are showing the ball to SS (fingers on top, thumb below). You feel relatively comfortable here & strong. Now, rotate your hand back & act as if you are showing the ball to the Second base bag. Feel the impingement in your shoulder?? Not good by any possible measure.

Now multiply this stress (at rest) by throwing at max effort, showing the ball to Second Base, repeatedly, and you have a disaster in the making.

You do not have to be an Md., Pitching Guru or otherwise to figure this one out. It is not even a matter of opinion. It is a matter of how the human body is constructed.

See above: This would be a pretty good source example to follow.....

I don't carry a brief for one method or the other.  But I did find the video I was thinking of:  It's from 2011, John Smoltz and Al Leiter.  Around 4:45, Smoltz demonstrates a drill.  He doesn't say "show the ball to CF," but that seems to be what he's doing.  Am I missing something?   

Here's the link (which only worked for me after a lot of trying):

https://www.mlb.com/video/diam...strasburg/c-18966909 

Chico Escuela posted:

I don't carry a brief for one method or the other.  But I did find the video I was thinking of:  It's from 2011, John Smoltz and Al Leiter.  Around 4:45, Smoltz demonstrates a drill.  He doesn't say "show the ball to CF," but that seems to be what he's doing.  Am I missing something?   

Here's the link (which only worked for me after a lot of trying):

https://www.mlb.com/video/diam...strasburg/c-18966909 

 

Well, Smoltz did have TJ surgery . . .

2019Dad posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

I don't carry a brief for one method or the other.  But I did find the video I was thinking of:  It's from 2011, John Smoltz and Al Leiter.  Around 4:45, Smoltz demonstrates a drill.  He doesn't say "show the ball to CF," but that seems to be what he's doing.  Am I missing something?   

Here's the link (which only worked for me after a lot of trying):

https://www.mlb.com/video/diam...strasburg/c-18966909 

 

Well, Smoltz did have TJ surgery . . .

Yeah, but this is a drill Smoltz says he did after his injury to change his delivery to be easier on his arm.  And it looks like Nolan Ryan in the photo Steve A. posted may actually be doing what Smoltz warns against in his video.

Both Ps are Hall of Famers who enjoyed long careers (though Ryan's durability is unmatched in the modern era).  But is there a clear reason to prefer one HOF'er over another, or are there different ways to pitch that might (or might not) work for someone depending on genetics and anatomy?  I don't know of much empirically proven info about how pitchers should avoid injury.  Seems to me players (and their parents) just do the best they can.

TPM posted:

Firm believer that there is a right way and a wrong way to pitch. There are only really a very few guys who can fix the flaws so that injury doesn't occur. 

Most don't know what they are talking about. IMO, a junior high school pitching coach probably is one of them.

There are a lot of youth coaches given too much credit for knowing the game because they win. What the parents don’t get is some of these guys ride their horses who will probably break down in time due to not being taught how to throw properly. 

First off my son was never a pitcher after 11 years old by choice.  He  has always excelled as a hitter but the take home suggestion is similar.  Might not sit right with the coaches out there though.  He has an unusual lower body half movement as the pitch is being made.  He was probably the best contact hitter in travel ball, and when he was a freshman they attempted to "correct" his swing and body movement. He tried their suggestion for a week or so but totally messed him up.  He went back to the old familiar way.  First few months JV coach got on him for not swinging like he taught him. Son just said ok and did it the rest of the practice, then went back to old way.  Soph year moved up to Varsity.  Hitting coach tried to change his swing "his way" which was different than JV Coach.  Again son said "OK, yes sir, you are right".  A few times later he went back to old way.  He ended up with many accolades/awards each year. Jr/Sr hs year they didn't bother him, let him do as he wants and continue taking private lessons as previous.  D1 college as a freshman hitting coach tried tinkering with his swing mechanics.  Same thing, Ok, yes sir, then back to before.  HC one day heard son being chewed out for not doing what hitting coach said.  HC took son aside after practice ended, told him do what he has been doing previously, he will talk to hitting coach.  Hitting coach never tried to tinker with his mechanics after that (they ended up being great friends to this day).  After 3 years D1 (All-American, Team USA) he is now in MILB, unusual swing mechanics and all.  Sorry so long lol.  Take home point is as long as your son isn't hurting his arm and getting good results, he may just want to say OK and after a few pitches go back to his comfort zone.  If the results aren't there though then might have to try suggestions.  Each coach, each level has their own way. If you have good results it makes it so much easier.  Good luck

Im with whoever told you to tell him to nod and then do what he, you and the trainer and therapist think are correct.  Tell your son that this is just for now. Tell him that not all coaches are great at pitching and that's okay. In the end, if your son throws crisp strikes coaches could care less how they do it.  My son has been playing school ball for 5 years. ALWAYS a new coach (and he's had four of them) will tell him something that will be completely wrong or that will actually do harm to either velocity or command. It seems as though some guys believe they HAVE to make a change or they aren't coaching.  

Executive summary/too long didnot read: Let the coach talk.  Do what you want as long as you are successful. The coach will completely forget his mechanical fixation of the day and focus on the successes.  There is zero need to talk to this coach or any other administrators.  That's asking for trouble. 

Example:  

Coach: " Johny, make sure you have the ball facing/pointing towards second base at footstrike."  

Johny: " Yes, sir."  (Does it the way he's always done it. Throws a good hard strike.)

Coach: " Johny, try to point the ball to second at footstrike."

Johny: " Yes, sir." (Does it the way he's always done it. Throws a good hard strike.)

Coach: " Good job!"