I am an umpire and have a passing knowledge of scoring, not great but OK. I was talking to another umpire who was saying he was talking to college scorer. He said a batter popped up a foul ball that the catcher caught but then dropped, he was charged an error. He then struck out and the score removed the error. Is this correct because he never reached base? Would a runner stealing a base and even possibly scoring make a difference?
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Originally Posted by Michael S. Taylor:
I am an umpire and have a passing knowledge of scoring, not great but OK. I was talking to another umpire who was saying he was talking to college scorer. He said a batter popped up a foul ball that the catcher caught but then dropped, he was charged an error. He then struck out and the score removed the error. Is this correct because he never reached base? Would a runner stealing a base and even possibly scoring make a difference?
Michael,
Believe it or not, this particular situation is scored incorrectly probably a higher percentage of times than anything else in amateur ball. Part of the reason is, while it is specifically dealt with in OBR(see 10.12(a)(2) below), it isn’t spelled out in that kind of detail in most other rule sets, including NCAA and NFHS rules.
In those rule sets, its left to the scorer to understand that once an error is scored for a legitimate reason, what takes place after it doesn’t alter the fact. Its always an error.
A lot of folks read 10.12(a)(1) and miss that part about prolonging the time at bat of a batter. In this case it may have been possible that the catcher was afraid a runner might score, but if that was the case it wouldn’t have been scored as an error in the 1st place.
In the end, the scorer made a typical mistake, but it was a mistake none-the-less. 
10.12 ERRORS
An error is a statistic charged against a fielder whose action has assisted the team on offense, as set forth in this Rule 10.12.
(a) The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:
(1) whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) prolongs the time at bat of a batter, prolongs the presence on the bases of a runner or permits a runner to advance one or more bases, unless, in the judgment of the official scorer, such fielder deliberately permits a foul fly to fall safe with a runner on third base before two are out in order that the runner on third shall not score after the catch;
(2) when such fielder muffs a foul fly to prolong the time at bat of a batter, whether the batter subsequently reaches first base or is put out;
Thanks for confirming that. Every time I try to read rule 10 my head blows up.
I understand Michael, and that’s why I don’t get too excited when people who score games casually make mistakes. I did something a couple years back for our local LL scorers that might help. Go to http://www.infosports.com/scor...ping_for_dummies.pdf
Its not intended to explain everything there is about scoring, but it might be of some help.
Stats, trying to understand this on a couple of levels.
1st, are you saying that under any rule set, if a foul fly is dropped (other than the exception noted) that its an error regardless of the outcome of the batter? IOW, if the batter strikes out on the next pitch and no runners advance and batter does not reach 1st base as a result of the drop, it is still an error?
2nd, how does this work in terms of earned runs for the pitcher. Lets say there is a runner on 1st, foul pop is dropped and an error is assigned with one out. Batter strikes out on next pitch, two outs. Next guy up hits a HR. Normally, with the error, any runs scored after that are unearned because of the error. However, in this case, you essentially had out two twice. I'm guessing that the runs are still earned because you can't count the same batter out twice.
I hope my question makes sense. I've always thought that if the batter wound up making an out, you don't count the error. Obviously, I'm wrong, but it seems like a scoring conundrum in counting earned runs for the pitcher by leaving the error in there.
Just curious.
Originally Posted by bballman:
1st, are you saying that under any rule set, if a foul fly is dropped (other than the exception noted) that its an error regardless of the outcome of the batter? IOW, if the batter strikes out on the next pitch and no runners advance and batter does not reach 1st base as a result of the drop, it is still an error?
That’s what I’m saying, unless of course the rules state that if the batter doesn’t eventually reach 1st the charged error comes off the books, but I’ve never heard of that.
2nd, how does this work in terms of earned runs for the pitcher. Lets say there is a runner on 1st, foul pop is dropped and an error is assigned with one out. Batter strikes out on next pitch, two outs. Next guy up hits a HR. Normally, with the error, any runs scored after that are unearned because of the error. However, in this case, you essentially had out two twice. I'm guessing that the runs are still earned because you can't count the same batter out twice.
The runs are still earned because the error had nothing to do with any run scoring. Had the batter reached after his foul pop was dropped and subsequently scored, his run would have been unearned because other than the error he’d never have reached 1st. The answer lies in the last sentence below.
10.16 EARNED RUNS AND RUNS ALLOWED
An earned run is a run for which a pitcher is held accountable. In determining earned runs, the official scorer shall reconstruct the inning without the errors (which exclude catcher’s interference) and passed balls, giving the benefit of the doubt always to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by runners had there been errorless play.
I hope my question makes sense. I've always thought that if the batter wound up making an out, you don't count the error. Obviously, I'm wrong, but it seems like a scoring conundrum in counting earned runs for the pitcher by leaving the error in there.
You’re question makes perfect sense, its the general understanding by many people that just because there’s an error it means there’d have been an out made that wasn’t, but that’s not the case. FI, 1 out, R2 takes off for 2nd on a steal, but the catcher’s throw sails into center and allows him to reach 3rd. The next batter hits a HR. Both runs are earned because the error wasn’t scored because an out wasn’t made, but rather that the throw allowed an additional base to be reached. Without the error the run would have scored anyway. But had the batter hit a single and the run scored then the next batter gotten put out, chances are the run wouldn’t have been earned.
Luckily that kind of thing doesn’t happen a lot, but it isn’t at all rare.
You’re question makes perfect sense, its the general understanding by many people that just because there’s an error it means there’d have been an out made that wasn’t, but that’s not the case. FI, 1 out, R2 takes off for 2nd on a steal, but the catcher’s throw sails into center and allows him to reach 3rd.
Yeah, I understand that, but usually, there is some kind of repercussion due to the error. Either an extra out or runner advancing. Seems like the only one in this case is an extra pitch, or a few extra pitches for the pitcher. This error would have absolutely no effect on the scoring of the game if the batter never reached 1st AND no runners advanced. It is what it is.
Originally Posted by bballman:
Yeah, I understand that, but usually, there is some kind of repercussion due to the error. Either an extra out or runner advancing. Seems like the only one in this case is an extra pitch, or a few extra pitches for the pitcher. This error would have absolutely no effect on the scoring of the game if the batter never reached 1st AND no runners advanced. It is what it is.
You’re correct that the error would have no effect on the scoring if the runner never reached. The guys who own the game and write the rules have decided that there are lots of reasons for errors. They didn’t do that because they wanted to have an effect on a pitcher’s ERA, but rather wanted to have an effect on his fielding percent, and there’s where the repercussion comes in.
The 1st rule change for errors occurred in 1883, ERA wasn’t computed until 1917, so its pretty likely errors weren’t thrown in there for any reason other than to gauge players’ fielding. In the decades after the rules called for certain percentages to be computed, its been found that there are much better metrics that are useful to the conduct and administration of the game, so its really doubtful there was any concern at all for ERA when they put this particular rule into effect.
It would be a whole lot easier on everyone if everyone used OBR with any modifications they felt were necessary, but very few organizations do! What they miss then, is when MLB changes something or clarifies something. I used to religiously follow the scoring rules for the venues I scored, but after 1 year of scoring HS games I pretty much gave up and now use OBR almost exclusively. I know if I use OBR, at least I’ll be scoring using the rules the entire game is based on.
