How will you teach hitting?

quote:

I can not make solid contact when trying to generate batspeed. Why?

"You cannot time a pitching machine" said Mike Epstein

What do you consider closed?

He rarely hit the ball the other way. In fact, it was his stubbornness that led to his poor postseason performance. The Cardinals were the first to shift three infielders to the right side of the infield and he steadfastly refused to go the other way, leading to a .200 post-season batting average. Dead pull and the best ever at it!

Definition of closed: front foot parallel with front of home. It can open slightly as long as the hands stay back and the hips are closed (in line with the pitcher).

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Ted Williams stated in his book that he closed his stance at the plate to hit opposite field......He felt this promoted an inside out swing, more like a push.....Jeter does the same thing......

Bluedog,

Thank you as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Baseballdad1228:
He rarely hit the ball the other way. In fact, it was his stubbornness that led to his poor postseason performance. The Cardinals were the first to shift three infielders to the right side of the infield and he steadfastly refused to go the other way, leading to a .200 post-season batting average. Dead pull and the best ever at it!

And what does this have to do with a hitting absolute?

Williams and Brett were mentioned. That's all.

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:

quote:

I can not make solid contact when trying to generate batspeed. Why?

"You cannot time a pitching machine" said Mike Epstein

Do you have any other band aids?

Unlike you and your ideas, I still play and put the things I learn to test. And, it's against live pitching. Fast pitch softball. Easily the equivalent of 90+. With change ups, drops, rises......the works.

quote:

Do you have any other band aids?

No just didn't want you to feel bad. Nobody can hit a ball well coming out of a tube going 90 with no notice. Not very natural

See my edited post.

Linear, you posted:

"I can stand in the batters box against 90+ and take a pepper like swing and make solid contact often. I can not make solid contact when trying to generate batspeed. Why? Reason is my mechanics don't let me be quick enough to catch up. What it takes me to generate batspeed is diametrically opposed to what it takes to get the barrel to the ball.

I've been trying to figure out what you mean for the past 10 minutes. Could you further explain? Thanks.

There is a huge difference between bat quickness and bat speed. Bat speed is just what it says....how fast the barrel is moving.

Bat quickness is your ability to get the barrel to the ball. Commonly called "long swing" and "short swing". A long swinger can generate good speed but it takes him to long to get the barrel up to that speed. One with a shorter swing is quicker to the ball but is likely to generate less bat speed.

Of course, you have the greats who have found how to do both.

The mechanics of each swing is very noticable when studying video.

Maybe the best example would be to put the slow pitch HR derby champion in the batters box against Nolan Ryan. The slow pitch player can generate tremendous bat speed. But, he can't do it quick enough to hit Nolan.

quote:

Fast pitch softball

I guessed where all this was coming from..

Old men and girls

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:

quote:

Fast pitch softball

I guessed where all this was coming from..

Old men and girls

90+ is 90+. (reaction time) Don't care who's throwing it.

I'm old. That's true. The guys I have to hit off aren't. I'm guessing mid 30's. Some from New Zealand. There are no girls in our league.

Linear, now I understand what you meant. Thanks.

Ah, but 90 ate me up when I was 22, 23 and 24 in the minors... Now, at 44, I just fear it from the stands!

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
BBDad1228, He is an old dude like me and 90 would eat him up even if he had mechanics like Barry Bonds.

The pitching machine saga.
Quote "you cannot time a pitching machine" is incorrect. It depends what type of pitching machine you use. If you have the Master Machine with an arm on it, the machine is very easy to time.......

You're right scout. But I can pepper some hits when I want to swing like a sissy.

bbdad,

I cant even see 90+ from the stands anymore- or the batters box for that matter. LOL

Thanks BBscout!

Kean University is in Union, New Jersey. The Cougars play in the New Jersey Athletic Conference, one of the best D-3 conferences in the country.

Oh my God, I think i was Googled!!!

quote:

I guessed where all this was coming from..

What I meant was the rewriting of the hitting text style from the original Ny-man work and the all new belief system about quickness and stuff. It sounded grounded in fastpitch hitting clinics that Steve puts on. And it was.......It is clear now. And Linears interest in that game too.... Why didn't you guys just say that in the first place. This site is HSBASEBALLWEB. We do allow golf commentary because I play that.

I just won a game of CLUE with my daughter too..COL Mustard , dining room , knife.

OK, I'll write it in long hand.

Swingbuster criticizes N Y M A N and Englishbey (accuses him/them of rewriting their hitting philosophy even though it is not true) because of some girls softball clinics.

Yet, Swingbuster conducts a workout today with two girls.

Amazing the things people bring up to discredit an overwhelming opponent.

He incinuates that hitting in baseball and softball are different. Even tries to include me because I play softball.

Please, would you sell out on those things so you can get your credibility back.

PS Buster, do you realize your partner in crime is heavy into softball. I can't wait to see a softball player hitting with an "arm action is king" swing

Well,

twiddle-dee, if you would answer questions instead of circling around them maybe just maybe we could see where you are coming from. I am still looking for the answer to where are clips from players you have coached but none can be found.


Scooter

Linear,

As a coach I am willing to look at any ideas and see if they will help my players gain better success. So, I'll place a deal with you and I'll be honest with you if you go for this idea. You tell me about the hitting system you believe in from A to Z with explanations and give me drills or ways to do it and I will do it. I will do it today after I get home from school. You can e-mail me the information at scooter1234_39208@yahoo.com. After I try your approach, I will come on here and tell you honestly if it made a difference or not. However, I want step by step details before I try it and I'll even try it with my two sons.


Scooter

No Thanks.

quote:

Jack Mankin

I know you read this site....You've copied the batspeed/bat quickness information from here to start the thread at your site.

Oh brother.

quote:

You and linear need to get your own life-- speak for yourself--

Haven't you realized by now that they're siamese twins? When Blue Dog says something, Linear agrees with it almost right away, and vice versa.

quote:

Easily the equivalent of 90+. With change ups, drops, rises......the works.

You're on the Olympic team??? Well why didn't ya say so!

[quote]Yet, Swingbuster conducts a workout today with two girls.



Linear ask if I compared her to the best 10th graders in the world after I stated she hit well.

Now how was I going to do that?

I do hear a shift from Mark H saying 100,000 times "compare everything you hear to the clips of the best hitters in the world" . I am not being a jerk; I honestly hear a shift to a specific quickness theme.

Again, thats fine but don't hold your breath and turn blue if we all don't care to do that.


Secondly, if it is their training drill it is original and has a purpose. If it someone elses drill it is damaging. The reason: they said so...the burden of proof lies elsewhere always


Don't blurr the line between video reality and opinions about training. That is all they are for any of us

I understand dogmatic statements based in video reality but you should not use the same "pound the table" do this or that when certain things are merely your opinion or a new drill you are using.


Why does Coach David Perno at Georgia use the stop and go tee drill and the walk up drill daily? Two distictly different feels.

Please answer that.

Put it in writing that he is clueless and ruining his team for this board to see. These are drills you would not likely use but he has been to Omaha I believe.

It would be better to say, we suggest you try this as it seems to help many kids. That would be believable and never offensive to people that have been around the block too.

My statement is simple and remains the same based on my "testing" and it is based on MY OPINION and my limited understanding of course.

Bat barrel action accelerating the bat barrel back toward the catcher trumps turn flail in getting the angular displacement for me.

The device...will be around after we are both gone. Why? ...kids like it and many coaches like having it.

Why would some MLB players, NAIA national champion coaches buy it and Mike Epstein use it in coaching certification program?

Yes, you will have the answer to that to but again it will be opinion masked as fact.

Good luck to all as we explore better ways to coach the game.

Happy New Year...even you Linear...you keep the rating high at HSBBWEB

Bluedog,

As a coach I am willing to look at any ideas and see if they will help my players gain better success. So, I'll place a deal with you and I'll be honest with you if you go for this idea. You tell me about the hitting system you believe in from A to Z with explanations and give me drills or ways to do it and I will do it. I will do it today after I get home from school. You can e-mail me the information at scooter1234_39208@yahoo.com. After I try your approach, I will come on here and tell you honestly if it made a difference or not. However, I want step by step details before I try it and I'll even try it with my two sons. Will you accept the deal or will you back step like Linear.



Scooter

I'll offer a simple way to teach hitting, how I learned it from coaches in my past.

1 - always be comfortable in the box
2 - be balanced, with weight on balls of feet in the athletic position, weight 60-40 on back side
3 - stance slightly wider than shoulders
4 - knock knuckles lined up, back elbow down
5 - load hands 2-3 inches behind ear
6 - short, closed stride (just a timing devise)
HEAD DOWN
7 - back hip trigger, hands first then barrel to the ball. Hands through hitting zone will facilitate weight transfer and hips popping
8 - hit through the ball and finish high.

Just basic stuff.

baseballdad1228,

uh oh!

Good stuff, but get ready!

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:


I do hear a shift from Mark H saying 100,000 times "compare everything you hear to the clips of the best hitters in the world" . I am not being a jerk; I honestly hear a shift to a specific quickness theme.

Compared to most of the posters at the "other" sites, you've spent less than 10% as much time.

Yet, you feel qualified to suggest a "shift".

You are really bitter. Invested a lot of money in it and it doesn't help.......Proven. Yet, you've got to get even...........It happens. And you'll take others down with you.

PG, there are icons for smiles and applause, you can even wish someone a happy birthday. I'm looking for the "Get in the foxhole" icon.

quote:

Don't blurr the line between video reality and opinions about training

I have been to the ABCA and many clinics where D-1 Coaches and MLB coaches speak and I have never seen any one of them as positive about every aspect of what they believe as you guys. Yet, they hold the top coaching jobs in the country.


Don't tell other people how much time they spend because that is something you really have no idea about.

Passion for a subject creates a positive energy applied to something you love to help others people you care about . It is highly inclusive, and open minded.



Obsession is a negative emotion rooted in fear and greed while holding on to something you think others want and refusing to fully share it. It is designed to be exclusive and closed minded

Even before I started this thread have you been promoting your thoughts in a positive or negative way?

The reason for teaching knock knuckles lined up and back elbow down is to prevent a loop in the swing. I was taught this "trick" while in the minors with the White Sox, whe Charley Lau ruled the world of baseball hitters. The elbow will raise as you load your hands. It works pretty well with Little League kids and shortens their swing, getting them to the baseball faster.

George Brett's picture notwithstanding...

I'll make a deal with you. You stop knocking the truth and I'll stop pointing it out.

Lau...but the kids I teach aren't George Brett...

quote:

I'll stop pointing it out.

Let differentiate openly what is fact and what is opinion.

Both can be valuable but only one is certain.

Peace!

Try picking up a bat and holding it like Brett does in your photos. Don't let your hands move and try and take the barrel from launch position to the hitting zone without looping the barrel behind you. You won't be able to do it. Boxed knuckles are best utilized when chopping wood. This technique is not incorrect instruction, just a teaching tool to get kids to hold the bat in their fingers and prevent a loop. My experience is that this works well with young hitters.

BBScout, you can dig up Babe Ruth and show me a clip of a bat in his dead hands if you would like. The theory of teaching hitting with the bat in your fingers and the knock knuckles lined up is sound. If players get older and find it more comfortable to rotate the top hand and can still get to the ball, that's great for them. I coach Little League and was taught this philosophy by professional hitting instructors that I trusted as a player. I found it works with the players I've coached. Incorrect? Who is to judge? Lots of different ways to hit, don't you think? And wasn't this a thread on how we each teach hitting? Kind of arrogant for you to pass judgement, IMO.

bbdad1228,

Just an observation/comment:

I dont think it is arrogant at all. I think it is bbscouts opinion. And I dont think your opinion is arrogant either.

He doesnt agree with you - and vice versa.

Typically - on this site - we throw stuff out there - people disagree - sometimes vehemently LOL - and the readers decide who they think is right.

Personally - I dont like any absolute rule for "lining up knuckles". That doesnt make me arrogant. Its just my opinion.

In this forum in particular (tends to get hot in here sometimes LOL) - we should strive to debate the opinions - and leave the personal stuff out of it - for the benefit of all of our members IMO.

I used the knocking knucles for little guys once.

It beats some grips but it will not work in a good rotational swing at all.

The bottom hand middle knuckles are into the plane of the pitch. The top hand knuckles are not at contact

Teach wrong first and fix later.

Everybody that has done that clap their hands

"You tell me about the hitting system you believe in from A to Z with explanations and give me drills or ways to do it....."

Scooter, I can't think of a reason to do so......What you believe is just simply not of importance to me.......I post here to reach players not people like you.......I want players to know there is a better way than what they are presently being taught in most, just about all, cases......I gave up awhile back trying to convince Coaches like yourself of anything.......

Bluedog,

Then why - in gods name - are you here on this website?

This is a pointed - and logical question - IMO.

If you are unable to provide specifics as to your teaching theories - what is the point?

If you are unwilling to share your knowledge - regardless of your personal desires - why even come here?

Thats another pointed - and logical question. IMO.


Lots of questions.

I love that everyone has different opinions. Especially guys like BBScout, who obviously is a stong baseball guy. However, I expressed the way I taught a grip from the way I was taught and was told I was incorrect. Respectfully, and I mean that, I don't need validation from him, or anyone, to recognize that it works with the kids I coach. It's not incorrect, just that he might disagree with it. That I can accept and respect. It's a great way to start young swings without a loop. Hitters will modify their swings as they advance and get older.

Posting is light today so I'll be the lightening rod......It's a new position for me but I'll try.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:

If you are unable to provide specifics as to your teaching theories - what is the point?

If you are unwilling to share your knowledge - regardless of your personal desires - why even come here?

I'm not Blue Dog but I've never minded interfering.

I don't see where he said he was unable to provide specifics....

I don't see where he said he was unwilling to share knowledge...

I do see where he said he gave up trying to convince coaches like scooter.

I see significant differences between what he's accused of compared to what he said.

The only thing I can see that would make It's statement accurate is if he's saying all hsbaseballweb posters are scooters. If you know what I mean.

Linear,

Forget all the bs tangential nonsense.

If he has it - he should share it.

Its that simple.

One liners wont work here anymore.

You seem more than willing to share very detailed beliefs about hitting. I have come to appreciate them - even if I dont agree with them.

One liners are done.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Linear
...You seem more than willing to share very detailed beliefs about hitting...

I have and so has Blue Dog. I've recently started a PM hitting dialogue with a former (I hope former) major critic of mine.

But, there are some people I won't do that with. A certain threshhold has to be crossed before I'll invest time with someone individually.

Call it tangential nonsense if you want. But the truth is.............you missed Blue Dogs point.

Finally we're waiting for your hitting details.

After all, why else would you be here.

I think it would be great if you - and Bluedog - would mosey on over to "The Grip" topic - and give your opinion on the subject.

This thread is getting very long - and convoluted - IMO.

Would be great to start on another aspect of hitting IMO.

Linear IMO - - We - as readers of the board - are not interested in who you and Bluedog will not speak to.

We are interested in ideas about hitting - for the benefit of parents and players who want to think critically and learn.


Lets all get it done OK?

BBScout, young players are not Major League players. They are learning. The knock knuckle technique keeps the bat in their fingers more and takes out the loop that is caused by wrapping the bat. It works. You don't have to agree, as I said. One of the best hitters in the world was Ty Cobb, and he hit with his hands two or three inches apart on the handle. I wouldn't teach that to a Little League kid, but it sure worked for Cobb. Al Oliver was a great MLB hitter. So should I teach kids to start with their hands straight over their heads before the pitch comes? Oliver had 2,700 hits, didn't he?

To answer your last question, I always listened well, questioned everything and took away what was best for me.

And the grip that is used by the clips you post will cause a loop in a young player's swing. IMO.

I have little interest in the grip.

It's not an absolute.........as if there are any.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Linear IMO - - We - as readers of the board - are not interested in who you and Bluedog will not speak to...

More evidence that you still missed the point.

No one said we wouldn't speak to him.

Read scooters offer.......It involves significantly more than "speaking to".

And, quite frankly, I know what kind of time I'd put into an offer like he made. I don't trust the return.

quote:

Originally posted by Scooter:
...I will do it today after I get home from school....

This is very telling to me.

Good - now that we all understand your position,
talk hitting.

That is why we are here.

Talk hitting. The rest of this is a waste.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

quote:

Originally posted by Scooter:
...I will do it today after I get home from school....

This is very telling to me.

The offer I made was serious, if there is a better way then I want to know and try it for myself before I present it to players I coach. I think it is a great opportunity for me to change my mind on some of the ideas I have towards hitting.

quote:

Scooter, I can't think of a reason to do so...I gave up awhile back trying to convince Coaches like yourself of anything.......

Bluedog,

You know nothing about me or my style of coaching or how I study the game just like I know nothing about you or your style of coaching. I am asking for away to test your style to see if it is different from the hitting methods I teach and to see if it works to better my players.


The problem with Linear and you isn't the fact that you two don't have any knowledge, it is the fact that you two will not share it with the rest of the board. The only thing you two do is critize and down-grade others without offering explanations.

Here is a prime example of not offering an explanation of what you are talking about

quote:

It's the front leg.......If you can use the front leg properly either way, it doesn't matter open or closed.....If you can't, it matters......

I may think you are talking about making sure it is stiff but not rigid with a little flex but someone else may have a different idea of what you are talking about. In all of my posts, this is what I have been saying about the failure to offer decent information.


Scooter

BBScout,

There is nothing to change. The knock knuckle teaching approach is very, very sound, and your unwillingness to recognize that is quite acceptable to me. It is a practice that teaches young hitters to hold the bat in their fingers and prevent a loop in a swing or from holding the bat too deep in their hands. Here is an illustration for you (I only endorse the grip as it pertains to our discussion):

http://www.hit2win.com/6step.html

As a hitter progresses, he will modify his own swing for comfort and effectiveness. This is a teaching tool, what this string was originally about, I believe. But you can keep the clips coming...they're fun to watch. And there are many things that MLB hitters do that I would not teach a kid.

I'm not part of this "grip" discussion, as I don't consider it an absolute.

But, I would never offer that link as a recommendation to anyone.

linear

what link(s) would you recommend ?

BBScout,

I don't know who that coach is. It was a visual of what I was talking about pertaining to the hands.

I have doubts about the statement you make that you are always willing to learn, as you cannot accept that the knock knuckle technique is a sound teaching device for younger players. You are steadfast that if someone doesn't hold a bat like Pete Rose or Ted Williams that there is something wrong. I know it is sound and that it works. I don't need film clips to reinforce my beliefs. I am confident in teaching this grip. Thanks though, like I said, they're cool to watch.

As for things MBL hitters do that I would not teach...how about Gary Sheffield's bat wave prior to the pitch? Bet that would look good and work wonders in Little League...or how about Sammy Sosa's stride technique - try explaining how to do that to a 10-year old.

Want to see a clip of Sosa or Sheffield?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
linear

what link(s) would you recommend ?

For you...........the golf links.

BBScout, you repeatedly fail to comprehend the concept. Sheffield does his thing and so does Sosa. Both are great hitters, but would you teach them to a 10-year old because a major leaguer does them? Therefore, with my limited communication skills via the Internet, I can only repeat to you that this technique works. And I don't need to convince you to feel good about teaching it.

But debate and discussion is what this forum is all about...

Some MLB hitters hitch when they swing, like Dave Winfield did. Would you teach a hitch? Winfield is an all-time great with Hall of Fame eyes, hands and bat speed. Think little Johnny from Podunk Pa. has those hands at 10? Probably not.

Roberto Clemente stepped in the bucket when he hit, but kept his hips closed and hands back when he racked up those 3000 hits. Would you teach a kid to step in the bucket like Clemente did? Different talent level between Clemente and a Little Leaguer from New Jersey, don't you agree?

Shawn Green is the best example of a MLB hitter who still had them lined up when he hits. Tony Gwynn was very close also. Having the top hand turn slightly over time is a natural progression over time, if it's more comfortable to the hitter. I always hit in the midpoint between the knock and big knuckles on my down hand. Most turn slightly. But the concept of the knock knuckles helped avoid a loop I felt and got me to the ball faster.

Either you lack the capacity to grasp this, or I lack the communication ability it would take to make you understand (I'll burn all three of my diplomas right after I send this!).

A Hitch carefully analysed can be much more than style IMHO. Especially when mentioned in the same sentence with Bonds. Grip can alter mechanics. Little kids can learn to swing right. Swinging right is easier than learning wrong. Swinging right makes kids better hitters

How to Load to Hit A Baseball like MLB players that I admire and try to emulate

Lead elbow begins down close to body( pronated lead shoulder), rear elbow moves higher( lead by pronated top hand) causing the bat to be splitting helmet( or higher on some swings) as bottom hand works under top hand on load.


NOW

The the reverse happens, lead elbow works up into the pitch plane, rear elbow slots making the bat tip accelerate backwards as the barrel plane changes down toward the 45 slot. Sending the hands backwards at stride initiation gives the front foot time to firm interupping coil load and priming the torso for the shoulder turn that will bring the bat around connected to the core turn.

Learn what the above means and how to and you will see how it affects loading, weight transfer, getting the front foot down and in time. You will then see why your grip will not lead to a good swing.

Been there done that with own kid age 7-19. Don't be mislead. This move is in concert with the pitchers move and gets you to the launch point with plenty of time to swing the bat and with more bat speed.

Don't swing with a cheap imitation. You will be half your potential if you have some. Ny-mas little clay man has it right. Wish he could talk and explain it his supporters

Interesting.

quote:

Bluedog,

Then why - in gods name - are you here on this website?

Game, I'm here to counter most of what you, and others like you, say..........Players need to hear and know that it is not only O.K. to think outside the box, but, it is something they need to do to hit anywhere near their potential......

Thats great to hear Bluedog.

Start countering then.

Bluedog,

The bad thing about your response is Linear and you don't counter or do anything to help. All you two do is give one liners full of downgrading. The bad thing is until I came to this site two or three years ago, I never heard of Paul ***** and I have been around baseball and read baseball articles from Coach polk to Coach Gillispie but never heard of *****.

The other thing is if I was a player coming on here looking for answers to questions, I would see a bunch of smoke and mirrors especially if it came from either Linear or you.

Note to All Players :

If you want good explanations to questions regarding baseball, please don't ask Linear or Bluedog. Seek out BBscout, CoachB25, Raider Baseball, and there are a few more that will help you and try to explain their system without judging you.


Scooter

Scooter,

There are alot more here on the HSBBWEB than a "few" more.

You just havent been here long enough to realize that.

For what it is worth - I would agree with bbscout.

Linear writes some great stuff IMO. I dont agree with all of it - but there is alot of good stuff.

Bluedog has yet to contribute IMO.

There are many other great coaches here - and I wont try to name them - because I am sure I will leave some out and feel bad about it.

Thanks

Here's some of my work.



Just advanced to stage 2.



Still perfecting stage 1.

Get your licks in quick. They won't stay up long.

Linear,

I too believe you know a lot about hitting, but I have a question.

On the top clip... do you think this hitter is getting good lower body involvement?

Define "good lower body involvement" for me.

Remember, these are .gifs. They play much slower than real life. If you have quicktime, rt.click, save target as and play in quicktime. Either hit the play button or hold the forward arrow. That will be closer to real time.

Linear,

1st clip - I would throw inside part of plate - up and down - inside all the time.

2nd clip - I would throw breaking ball and offspeed alot to this hitter.

I've heard some ridiculous things but these have to rank real high on the list.

You've seen each kid hit one pitch.

You are one hell of a scout. But, if I were you I wouldn't want to be paid hourly.

You asked. LOL

Hourly - or by the minute - doesnt matter - just the rate matters.



BTW - I am not a scout. Or a coach. Just someone who watches the game and the players.

I don't remember asking anything.

Should I retact my comments then?

Your call.

Thanks for the clips "linear".

I have located the old ironnyman simulations that demonstrate the existence of THT,although he does not interpret the models that way. I believe his interpretation is faulty,but people should examine them themselves and make up their minds. Still,very good models which show a powerful effect of the back arm quickening the swing. Is it just "passive"/inertial as ***** says, or could it be harnessed by the body via perceptible active arm motion ?

The relevant models are named rotational_simulation5 and rotational_simulation6,perhas someone can link them as I do not have ****** access. If not,I can send them to someone to post.

As for these tee clips,they show the difference between the low level and high level swings related to the key bbscout question:

BB:"I count the same amount of frames as you do. The rotation is going and the hands are holding back. If the body is working as one, why are the hands holding back for 5 frames of rotation? If they are just along for the ride, why are they not moving? What gets them moving if the center of the body is rotating and they (the hands) are not going anywhere, yet are supposed to be along for the ride?"


Compare the lefty/stage 2 clip to bbscout's tee shot from behind of brett for example.

Brett is doing "something" so that his coil dynamics are better which I believe is related to "keeping hands back better" which is related to arm action.

Notice in both (brett tee and stage 2 lefty tee guy) when the front foot is down, Brett's hips have not turned open much. His back leg has stayed turned back because of the upper body load. By the time he gets to contact,the upper torso is still driving the swing and has not caught up/passed the hips. This is what results in the typical nonbugsquishing back foot/heel leads toe type action of the high level swing.

In the low level swing, when the front heel is down,the hips have opened quite a bit already (power leak overturning hips/poor timing of separation/coil). Then by the time of contact,the torso/shoulders have already caught up to the hip angle,meaning poor acceleration/poor quickness.Not surprising in a nonhigh level swing, but are you on the path without some kind of arm action assisting the shoulder load so the hands stay back and coil dynamics are better ?

The skilltechnologies motionanalysis shows the desired angles of the links and how they relate/change dynamically for inside/out,high level swing vs lower/power leak swing,for example.

Brett,if in accord with the lau model is consciously applying arm action to assist loading much like donny has described in a way that fits with laus "knob pulling" cues. I am not sure how brett himself would describe it.

tom,

Wow!

Can you say that again, I read it 5 times and still have no idea what the heck you are talking about.

Linear,

I commented on both clips - then you removed one of them.

Thats not fair. LOL

I actually wanted your opinion... from the waist to the feet, do you feel that hitter in the first clip is using his lower body correctly. Is he getting maximum rotation and power in that swing?

Guess I don't under stand the Phase 1 - Phase 2 thing. Is there a phase 3?

Not arguing, just curious.

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:
Notice....when the front foot is down, Brett's hips have not turned open much.....

...In the low level swing, when the front heel is down,the hips have opened quite a bit already (power leak overturning hips/poor timing of separation/coil)...

More bull ****. Heel drop is one of, if not THE most insignificant event of a swing. The heel drops when the hips push it down. The hips start when the signal to go is given/received. Pay attention to the real stuff, please. Comparing ones heel in relation to their hips reveals absolutely nothing.

Brett started his swing when his brain said go. Who really cares where the heel is at that point.



Reconcile your previous bull **** with Bonds, please. There are at least 3 frames of hip rotation before solid heel plant. That in a 5 frame swing.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I actually wanted your opinion... from the waist to the feet, do you feel that hitter in the first clip is using his lower body correctly. Is he getting maximum rotation and power in that swing?

Guess I don't under stand the Phase 1 - Phase 2 thing. Is there a phase 3?

Not arguing, just curious.

Using it properly?.....For his stage of developement.....yes.

Getting maximum power?.....For his stage of developement........close.

There are more stages.

These are good swings for "their stage of development". They are conquering the quickness mountain. They have good bat quickness "for their stage".

It's

What does it take to hit a curve ball? What swing trait is most important to hit the curve?

quote:

Brett,if in accord with the lau model is consciously applying arm action to assist loading much like donny has described in a way that fits with laus "knob pulling" cues. I am not sure how brett himself would describe it.

Tom,
Don't have clips PG does... BUT ISN'T Brett in a closed stance all of the time. If so that puts your hands "hidden" from the start. Your feet hips and shoulders are in the same line also to oppo field. To me this brings up a whole new model if you line up closed. There is no need for arm action to hide you hands. Your step open gives some connection.

I see a select few of the MLB players that don't have arm action get closed to get there hands inside the target line at swing initiation. Not something that is ideal or that you would teach.

Guessing ...you might find ( or I think I see) some degree of "counterrotation" in Brett and Edmonds to get flail bat displacement. I think a closed stance is induced counter rotation that players have adapted. I personally agree with NY-man that it is bad and that there is a better way to get power.

Any method that doesn't allow the batter to use the whole field when the pitcher uses the whole plate has some weakness. Staying pitch neutral( up the middle) with the your line of direction going into foot plant ups your odds of a hit maybe

Griffey forces his hands hidden in the set up. Again not very teachable and hard to get two eyed contact on pitcher. Not a stretch to see a slight counter rotation with him in certain view. Still a great swing from side view. You will also see his lead elbow close ; rear elbow high.

On my " hit LD up middle drill" I can get closed and do it out of the 45 slot easily. But that is cheating. I am still hitting the outside of the ball I have just shifted my body to make the ball go up the middle

BBScout,

Go to MLB.com and visit the Mariners page. Take a look at any of the Ichiro clips to see how well a player can hit using the knock knuckle grip. Five seasons and a .332 batting average with 200 hits in very one. Who, in your opinion, is the better hitter, Rose or Suzuki? I'd take either at the top of my lineup, grip notwithstanding.

My point again is that there is no manual that defines the ultimate grip of a bat. It's about comfort. I use knock knuckles to offset a problem many young hitters experience, looping the bat to get the barrel onto the same plane as the ball. Ichiro happens to use that grip.

I asked my son this morning to show me how he holds the bat. His top knuckles are actually closer to Rose's grip than Suzuki's. It was a change he made over time and I never noticed. His hands went where they were most comfortable as he got older. He's doing OK for himself, so I wouldn't even suggest lining up his knuckles today. It served a purpose when he was in Little League, though.

You want MLB success with that grip, go look at Ichiro. I don't know how to upload it here for you or I would.

MJM

You advocate video. Go look at the video. It's right there. The MLB clips are conclusive and filmed in a game situation, not a practice swing or even Ted Williams having a converstion with Yogi Berra.

Check out the hands...

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brew/image/2001/spring/suzuki0313.jpg

[quote]looping the bat to get the barrel onto the same plane as the ball.

Just an observation...no dog in fight

A-B hand path can use kk grip. It is a commonly a linear hand path thats quick. It is most often an outside in swing in kids .The hands often lead the hips because they can and will if given a chance.

Middle/ in pitches.. you can get some hip turn as you hit the ball out front to aid this straight line hand path and generate some pop.

away locations...scratch you head ...kids will take these pitches many times because hitting them just doesn't feel right. Or sometimes they are simply late by default and hit an oppo shot

In rotation hitting, looping can be a problem if the weight doesn't shift to firm the front leg/ set the right axis and /or the child / bat/ strength relationships are out of balance creating to much inertia.

Strength and athletism ..... a two tool kid....get um at the draft

BBScout,

You gave me Ted Williams... Ted Williams in a conversation with Yogi!

The MLB video is undeniable. You're right, video is great.

Let me know when we can move on...

Here's Green:

http://www.laist.com/images/shawn_green-thumb.jpg

You can see it on the Mariners MLB.com page. I cannot upload the URL.

"I would personally like to thank Mr. Suzuki for how he holds his hands on the bat" It shows that there is no rule to gripping a bat.

Will you go on forever? I sent you a pic of Green, in action also, and you can see the Ichiro video for yourself. Are you so narrow that you cannot accept that hitters do not all have to hold the bat like Rose and Williams to be successful? I acknowledge that Rose and Williams were great with their grips of choice. And my original statement pertained to teaching Little League hitters.

Donny-

Regardless of how Brett thought about (or didn't think when going well) things, his swing fits the Lau description (by definition since he is the Lau poster boy).

The 2 things necessary to "FIX" "linear" 's (or should we say "spinear" since this is the typical N Y M A N connected spinner,worsened to "spinhook" if subsequenbt hook is emphasized) cage kid is :

1- Good forward weight shift/positive move (for instance if Edmunds were swinging you would see the weight go dramatically forward before the hips start their turn open. Lau (Jr.- LAUS LAWS) makes the excellent point that without this definite forward "shift" - or "carry" if you like the Dixon term - you are not able to "pull the knob" (what Lau considers essential arm action),so there also needs to be the Lau absolute :

2- "pull knob" with lead arm,not shoulders.

Notice how Brett internally rotates the lead arm as the hips turn open. This is the major portion of arm action that keeps the hands back in this off the plate longer swing radius style (that also goes along with the more closed front foot). This is the same lead arm action that Epstein describes as always working the lead elbow up a little in the "drop and tilt".This is the primary action Lau is referring to with his "pull the knob" cue.

Lau also encourages compatible back arm action/breaking the "top hand dominance habit" by his open top hand and other type drills (open top hand gives feel of apllying "tht" consciously with resulting perceptible quickening of swing).

The kid in the cage shows a dead hands no/minimal stride approach which leads to spinning in my opinion. Some say this is just a drill to insert a good action in the swing, but I don;t buy that.
Admittedly I have used new/confusing words to describe this,but if you want a traditional description, just read Lau, epsecially on "poison of back foot hitting" which this is an example of even though the weight gets off the back foot still not a good positive move.

Lau would address the positive move with a "walkup drill". He also has drills for the lead arm knob pull and the prevention of top hand dominance (again see LAUS LAWS).

Brett's lead arm action is NOT the dreaded independent arm action BDOG mentions. It is well synchronized arm action assisted shoulder loading that quickens the swing by optimizing coil.

Good info from LAu also regarding the details of front leg action which I doubt is the same as the way BDOG and "linear" see it. But what does Lau know ?

Anyone seen those ironnyman models ?

The last thing I am is upset. I truly enjoy the debate and I hope I always convey myself as respectful to you. That is my intention. Disagreement is not dislike.

I am no hitting expert and I hope to learn many things on this site. I don't state that every hitter has to have his knock knuckles lined up. My own son no longer does, as I said earlier. It is a teaching technique that I use that works well with younger hitters. Your approval, again, is not necessary. The fact that Ichiro does or doesn't hit that way doesn't change why I had young kids do it.

While I respect your background and knowledge, you are not the judge or evaluator of what people should or should not be able to do or say in this string. There is no requirement for video that I saw when I registered here. You like it, so I went and found Ichiro for you. Frankly, I'm surprised that a professional baseball guy like yourself is so brick walled at the thought of things like different grips and teaching tools.

I don't mind leaving myself open to questions or different opinions. I have no problem accepting better concepts, corrections or other's viewpoints. I'm left to wonder if you can say the same thing...

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:



Reconcile your previous bull **** with Bonds, please. There are at least 3 frames of hip rotation before solid heel plant. That in a 5 frame swing.

You must have missed this, Tom. Conveniently? To save face? Please reconcile for the "listeners".

Linear,

One concern( possibly unfounded) in hitting is about having the front leg accept some weight. There seems to be a fine line between good front foot action and some spinning in my mind . Maybe it is fixed with the load/ unload method you promote. Could you describe it or cut and copy any info about it that you believe.

I think Bonds on this swing stayed back spun maybe more than his best swing as the ball seemed to go very high off the bat. How do you see the elbow movement pattern in Bonds swing? Is it much different from Ny-mans model?

N Y M A N models/ "ironnymans" and THT:

Back in the latter days of the last century, there were some very good dicussions between Jeff Hodge, "N" and Mankin on Hugens site.

Mankin was doing his steering wheel knob experiments and Hodge was producing his bare bones video (BIOMECHANIC BASEBALL) and N thought a great model to further study things woult consist of a flywheel mass as torso with a flail/2 piece whip bat connection. This became more easily possible using computer software simulations which N made available. He should get tremendous credit for this (and other things)series of models. The rotational_simulation5 was created especially to assess the "THT" concept, or perhaps more accurately to "PUT A FINAL NAIL IN THE THT COFFIN" - a thread title at that time.

The simulation has a rectangular torso/flywheel.Single rods are connected by pin joints at the front and back "shoulder" to simulate the arms.The end of the rods are pinned to the bat handle.The bat is another rod.

The "lead arm" rod is fixed (connected) to the flywheel torso by a rigid connection to the midpoint of the lead arm rod. The bottom hand end of the lead arm rod is constrained so the rod/lead arm will not lengthen.This is then the flywheel plus 2 piece whip model with the lead arm being one piece of the whip and the bat being the second,connected by a pin so as to have double pendulum type action.

The purpose is to look at forces where the back arm/top hand connect to the bat. The back arm "rod" is pinned at "pin joint #50". The computer simulation turns the flywheel and the forces can be measured at any of the pins for example. Weights or mass are assigned to the various components - flywheel/rectangle,arm rods,bat rods.

The experiment is run, what is found happening at "pin joint #50" ?

This is about a 9 and one half minute clip, and at between 3 and a half and 4 and a half minutes in, N says : "there is a total force at right angles to the bat that wants to create bat rotation in a way that quickens unloading of the bat...I don't want to use the word top hand torque, but in essence, this would be the best example of top hand torque"

To further clarify what is happening, ***** runs the experiment with weight of the back arm near zero and at 10 pounds (computer program works with weight not mass) and with the back arm unpinned from the back shoulder.

This demonstrates the force to be a result of the structure of the levers, N: "a merrygoround or figure skater effect of the mass of the back arm attached to the shoulder" it "causes a much quicker releas of the bat".

N further interprets:

"..But there is no muscular motion, only reaction to turning of the torso flywheel with the arms connected.....this rotational force on the bat if you want to call it top hand torque is not due to conscious effort to apply tht..it is the result of the mass of the back arm connecting the bat wanting to fly out due to the centripetal or centrifugal force of the rotating body.....you could never feel,never perceive this, but it is a hugely important dynamic in terms of its effect on the bat."


So in summary, the program demonstrates a crucial force without using muscle. In spite of the fact that this apparently rules out humans using muscle to implement this mechanic, ***** goes ahead to show what the effect of such an active force application with the back arm might do in the next model- simulation_rotation6.

In ironnyman#6,we now have the new official N name for this thing we do not want to call tht that involves a torquing force where the top hand connects to the bat that quickens the swing.The new official name is (drum roll please):

"top hand/back arm inertia"

In this briefer demo,then N tries to support his intepretation which is that THT exists,but is purely passive/not perceptible (Lau open top had rill or Mankin golf club drill notwithstanding,pay no attention to those people behind the curtain).

N states that the only way active force could be applied actively by the back arm would be by either arm extension or "shoulder" (actually upper arm) INternal rotation. Internal rotation makes no sense, so he only tests the "extension" possibility which greatly degrades the swing.

How else might the human body actually apply/harness this mechanic to greatly quicken the swing analagous to the Lau "open top hand"/nondominant top hand experience Lau mentions or the way mankin describes it ?

I would say that it is simple to apply this via EXternal rotation of the back arm and that of course human muscles can implement this mechanic and early enough to be easily conscious and perceptable.

Try it yourself.

Then ponder the teacherman credo, I could just be:

"another obstructionist who is more interested in protecting his belief than finding the truth".

In any case these are great models, but their interpretation may be faulty when the belief system is threatened.

It could be me.

See what you see.

I'm amazed at your propensity to ignore the core of our discussion and immediately go to the video. You should be a Sportscenter host. I know how Williams held the bat. He didn't line his knock knuckles up like Ichiro does. I agree totally with that.

I'm hoping to learn lots from Linear, Tom and even you down the road.

Just a thought I had while I was reading. We discuss in depth the theories and various aspects of quickening the swing and proper load and harnessing force. These are all important by the way, but we totally seem to be focused on the power homerun swing. My question is, do we have to specifically have each of these skills for every hitter? Where does the fast as lightning hitter with good hand-eye coordination fit in this. Should they be trying to achieve maximum force or focus on getting the sweet spot of the bat on the ball in order to let their legs aid them on the ball hit in the outfield? Drive the ball yes but not trying to do too much with it. Just some food for thought.

Provides a strong foundation and helps protect young hitters against overstriding or opening their front foot.

Its all in the game-

I am sorry I am so bad at communicating this.
As bb says I am not a clip sender type.You can just assume i stay onthe couch and watch a lot of TV. I can point you to clips and other sources.If you want the traditional description that I'm sure you can undertsand, Lau Jr does an excellent job (I prefer Epstein,but both get the hitting job done).

This reference below has the motionanlysis type data that lines up with Lau's traditional description. The motionanalysis is more precise in sorting out hoe in side vs out mechanics vary and how typical low level vs high level swings differ.

Lau describes the low level swing as back foot,swing while striding,top hand dominant,2 piece swinging.

What the motioanalysis shows is that the typical spinning swing gets poorly staged coil/uncoil, body turns together with shoulders catching up to hips,bat decelerates then is reaccelerated by wrist roll- this is the 2 piece aspect- the second reacceleration.

In the high level swing, there is quick acceleration to contact with the shoulders lagging behind the hips more for outsdie location and not having caught up in either case by contact (if they do catch up you will have decelerated or decelerated-reaccelerated).

Lau describes well how to use weight shift and arm action to coil and uncoil well and adjust in/out by focussing on front knee frimup timing for example.Peavy calls it full transfer hitting after Lau Jr.His internet stuff is good too peavynet.com.

data from skilltechnologies old batspeed post:

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/10533.html

Good History Tom...this is what it means to me


A high rear elbow with considerable mass slotting down as the bat changes plane applies a tremendous force accelerating the bat into a rearward rotation and breaking inertia.

The lead elbow going up into the pitch plane is applying the similar force to the knob with no real consciecenss of the arms and hands.


If the wrist/ arm stays fixed there is not muscular feel (during the rear elbow slotting and simultaneous raising of the lead elbow) of adding bat speed( since it is happening behind the body) but it is real and occurring.

An added benefit is to counter balance the stride momentum to prevent lunging

An added benefit..angular bat displacement

An added benefit... creates time and need for solid lead foot plant ...stops spinning

You can actually put the bat in a vertical plane and drop the rear elbow as you elevate the lead elbow and hit a ball hard even with your feet together and hardly feel the effort...try it

Now look at Bonds in a different light

Tom,

Thanks for taking the time to explain that again.

BBScout,

I believe every word of what you just wrote..now when was the last time you coached a kid and really had to teach something? Young hitters often pull off the ball as a natural instinct. A wider stance leaves less opportunity to do that. Can you visualize that, or am I going to get a million clips of Honus Wagner's stance or Joe Morgan's stride now? The stride is a timing device more than anything else. With younger players, the wide stance gives them less room to make a mistake. Instead of giving me Stan the Man or Harmon Killebrew, find fault with the actual concept and maybe, for the first time here, I can actually learn something from you.

quote:

Originally posted by Baseballdad1228:
BBScout,

Young hitters often pull off the ball as a natural instinct. A wider stance leaves less opportunity to do that.

With the little guys - and even some of the bigger ones - I used to address "pulling off the ball" without tinkering with the stance.

Very simple thing to do - unless the kid was just plain scared to death of the ball.

BBScout,

Let's just move on. I'm disappointed with your inability to grasp simple teaching concepts and your disconnection with what it takes to coach young hitters. I see no point is defending simple techniques to a man who claims an extensive baseball background and truly should be able to comprehend them and understand their usefulness.

I'm just glad to see two people arguing and me not be one of them. Of course, when I'm involved it's me against the hsbaseballweb army.

This site can make someone get a complex.

But, I'm fighting it off.

Yes, it can.

Reflecting on the whole thread:

I think the most fascinating part of this thread is that there is virtually nothing here - and I mean nothing - that wasnt taught 40 years ago to me by my dad.

New words may have been "invented" - we may get some scientific equations thrown in - but the bottom line is there is nothing new IMO.

It really is remarkable.

Its, I agree...just that there so many more experts now that computers are in play.

Baseball1228,

I guess the use of high quality video has been the biggest change IMO.

You know - for years now - I would read - and comment. Because I didnt know the fancy new names - or didnt have a protractor handy - I got called alot of names. LOL None were very flattering.

But the ability to "see through the mist" is important. In any endeaveor IMO.

I am glad we have so many fine coaches that visit here - and I hope they keep visiting and contributing.

I know I have asked bbscout many questions over the years - and I like his answers because I can understand what he is saying.

Just some observations.

You can understand me.....but you won't.

It's a good thing you can't understand Tom......no one can.

On the contrary, I understand alot of what you write. It takes some time - (kind of like reading a book while someone is flinging mashed potatoes at you - LOL).

I just dont agree with some of your stuff. Especially the lack of emphasis on the importance of the hands/arms and wrists in the swing.

And Tom was kind enough to break down his explanation for me a little yesterday.

Its all in the game-

I think that is a good point.Nothing very new under the sun for a while.

You might look for that old book BATTING, a compilation of a sportswriters MLB interviews up until about 1925.Hundreds of pages of advice fromt the great oldtimers most of which still applies.

Ty Cobb describes Babe Ruth as the one who really developed these mechanics because he was a goofy left handed pitcher,he was left alone the first few years in the bigs to hit however he wanted.

This optimized arm action way is what he settled on and he could do it with heavy lumber whereas the modern guys prefer the light stuff.

Cobb called the Babe a "home run specialist".

Also the atsroturf small ball years caused a lot of forgetting as have metal bats.

The (me/we?) new discovery people invent a lot of fancy names and hypnotize themselves,even to the point of starting to believe the "scienec" of their models and not the reality of what the hitters do/have in common. This kind of "science" can convince you things like the hands are "just along for the ride" or there is a better mousetrap, But I don't believe that.

Its,

I'm new to this and really am excited about being able to learn from guys like Linear, as soon as I get up to speed on the buzz phrases...

Thanks!

If you two will stop I'll tell everyone that each of you got the last word.

How about this....me playing traffic cop.

If you two don't stop I'm going to tell MN-MOM.

Just kidding......carry on.

BBScout,

I offer reasons for what I do with my kids that you selectively ignore...I understand the value of film when properly utilized, not when comparing apples and oranges...I understand the difference between a square peg and a round hole...I have a great desire to learn from those with the ability to teach...and there is nothing wrong with simple when it works well to make a young child a better baseball player. And I can easily recognize a condescending statement when I see one... It's OK. I'll still do what works well.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Hey Linear, I liked the clips of your kids. Of course clips have no value Who was the old guy flipping the front toss?

Don't call me OLD GUY!!......

That's my best TR impression.

bbscout
Which page did you post the clips of Rose, Williams, and Robinson? This thing has gotten so long I could be looking forever.
Thanks.

I read most of these discussions on hitting and sometimes feel like jumping in. Then realize I don’t have the time or energy needed to keep up with you guys. Then someone like Tom or even at times swingbuster decides to post things that make me feel like I don’t have the intelligence to keep up. Tom Guerry is the hitting version of Tom House (that’s a compliment) but I really don’t fully understand what is being said. Kind of like a foreign language to us dummies.

Seeing that you guys are constantly debating hitting and I try to read it all, I’ve noticed some changes in beliefs by some of you over the last year or two. I personally think that is a good thing. It reminds me of a good student rather than someone who has learned it all.

Personally I am a firm believer that half (maybe more) of hitting is natural talent. I also believe that the visual and mental side of hitting is at least half the remaining half. Then a good portion of the rest involves getting stronger physically. What’s left is technique and it’s still very important, but some seem to think it is the only thing keeping people from being a great hitter. Technique alone is almost useless to most of those without natural ability. The perfect technique does not guarantee producing a good hitter, but it sure can be important to the hitter who has the other qualities. JMO

One good reason for widening the stance is there is less movement before foot down. There is less changing of the plane of the eyes. The farther you stride the more your eyes go from high to low. There is more focus on rotation with small stride rather than long stride. Long stride is actually more conducive to linear technique. And if the front foot lands before anything happens, there can be no real benefit from a long stride. It has nothing to do with hitting, but some feel it is part of their timing and approach. Anyway I think young kids are best off spreading out more than most of them do. This makes it much easier (less elements) to do things correctly. IMO

Often the word comfort is used, but the most comfortable position for almost everyone is to stand straight up with feet under the shoulders. The most important thing is being in the best position to hit, not the most comfortable position. See Jeff Bagwell! Of course, the most important position is at contact.

My theory on spreading out or using a wider stance has nothing to do with actual hitting… In younger players it has to so with eliminating a useless maneuver (long stride) that has no benefit in most cases. It makes things easier for most to widen out! Sometimes the positive results are immediate. There have been MLB hitters who spread out slightly more in two strike counts. Canseco for one!

These discussions are fun and educational for me. I think I’ll climb back into the cocoon now, if you guys will allow that. I’ll continue to keep reading. Great thread!

And just how long have you let all that build up?

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
but I see well below average hitting coaches at both the college and minor league level of play...

Aaaaaaa a men!! Aaaaaaa a men!! Aaaaaa a men!! A men!! A men!!

Can you hear the tune?

I agreed 10,000%

BBScout,

PG writes about a wide stance that cuts down the possibility of mistakes and a short stride and you tell him it's a good post?! Now I know what it's like to be a rookie in a veteran clubhouse!!!

Your most recent post was very informative and made lots of sense. Maybe I really can learn from you...

quote:

someone like Tom or even at times swingbuster decides to post things that make me feel like I don’t have the intelligence to keep up. Tom Guerry is the hitting version of Tom House

PG ... high level discussions and lo tech drills for now

Practice today consisted of hitting line drives up the middle off of a standard batting tee. Some tips and advice occassionally

When they can all do 8 of 10 we will move on.

All the info in the world is no good until they can practice and get some personal feedback from ball flight.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
...Hubbell and Sauer were with the Giants minor league system for about 30 years apeice.Bobby Bonds, Mays, McCovey, Jim Ray Hart, Mathews, Foster Maddox, Kingman, J. Clark, C. Davis, W. Clark. All these guys were coached by Hank Sauer over a 30 year period. You don't see that going on now except in a very few cases.

Amen to that too.

It's good to agree with everything bbscout says.....

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
...Pro ball.......they don't pay the minor league hitting coaches enough to get quality coaches. The good ex big league hitters don't want to coach because they made enough money to retire and play golf. They end up with many guys who just need a job and are good guys, so they are now hitting coaches. A $25,000 per year coach is trying to help the $2,000,000 bonus baby....

Yes, I agree with this too.

I can't imagine anything harder than a $25,000 coach getting a $2,000,000 ball player to listen.

I agree with all of that too.

Arguing about the stride and grip is entertaining to say the least.......

Itsinthegame, these questions you keep asking are entertaining, also.....You keep meaningless arguments going......It's some of your best work...........You may want to consider giving Bbscout a break, though......He's been quite busy teaching as of late........And, teaching stride and grip is hard work......

Thats a wonderful observation Bluedog.

I've said it before and I'm moved to say it again.....

Most have no idea where/how MLB hitters power their swing.......Some talk about the front foot striding open or closed but have no understanding of why some hitters can stride with an open front foot and hit well and some can't.......

Vision is very misunderstood, also.......Holding the head still is not the way to go......The head needs to be free to move........

Bluedog,

Please tell us how you would teach a young hitter to utilize vision for the best results. Or do you believe vision is not that important?

quote:

His head may be free to move, but it moves less than any of the other top hitters

Good observation Scout

The more perfect the rotational mechanics the less one relies on shift momentum. Yet his upper body movement pattern, bend and unbend from waist, and belly up move to hit created the quickest and most powerful swing during his era.

.

Linear writes: On page one. A fair and accurate statement IMO

quote:

But, as they advance, they will have to learn something completely different to be successful. They will have to learn to load their center, create momentum by carrying the load into foot touch and launch with good connected rotation. Otherwise they will never develop the swing quickness to "catch up" to the pitching speeds they have to face.

You mentioned knowing how to load and unload properly. Would like some clarification...what you think as above ; not the what is wrong with what I think

Above where you say "load your center"...what energy can you create in the center besides

Hands back / foot open torque? TURN TORQUE

Or bend at the waist / unbend LEVER

Any other energy sources ? Bat knob TORQUE

What defines connection besides the spatial relation ship of the hips and the shoulders?

What visual markers( body part relationships) do you look at on clips to define connection ?

Where do you see slop if the torso is primed when the ball is half way home ?

B25...have you hit some tee work LD up the middle yet?

Which is the best instructional video available that breaks down, explains and teaches hitting for college level hitters?

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:

Hands back / foot open torque? TURN TORQUE

Or bend at the waist / unbend LEVER

Any other energy sources ? Bat knob TORQUE

I can't answer until I know what this stuff is.

Doug,

If it were physically possible without affecting the swing itself, the best vision would result from a negative movement until launch and very little during the swing. This may be impossible, but there is no question it allows the hitter the very best vision and tracking.

One only needs to go to a race track, set in the first row, and watch the cars speed by to prove this. If you move your eyes towards the car they are a blur. If you fix your eyes on the car you see very well for a very short period of time. If you move your eyes in the direction the car is moving you can see it very well for a longer period of time. In a way, your eyes are making the car slow down! A person can do the same thing standing by the side of a highway or standing in the batters box just watching the ball. Oddly enough it’s called TRACKING.

I understand most of the technical aspects that are brought up here and I do think this stuff is vitally important. There are a few real serious hitting people who post here.

However, I think the visual and mental aspects of hitting are at least equally important. The first thing we used to do when a hitter was struggling is put him in the bullpen and have him track pitches, without swinging of course. In many cases this helped a lot. Most slumps are not caused from mechanical breakdowns. The swing doesn’t always change during the slump. Almost always it’s a vision or mental problem. To understand this, you need experience! That’s why I speak so highly about the importance of experience. Also agree that many with tons of experience, don’t understand what they did and certainly can’t teach it. It’s those who have both the experience and ability to learn and teach that have the biggest advantage.

PG - Very interesting thoughts. This may be old hat for many of of you, but while I was reading your last post, a light bulb went off.

You said that when you had a hitter who was struggling you put him in the bullpen and have him track pitches. You go on to indicate the importance of experience.

So there would be benefit for hitters (including those not slumping) to spend some time in the bullpen tracking pitches. This would be in addition to normal BP and hitting drills. Could be beneficial in cold weather areas where there is some pitching indoors, but can't hit due to lack of space.

Never thought of that before. I think I'm going to float this by son's fall coaches to bring to H.S. coaching staff. Currently, team is in cages two days a week, with third day for pitchers.

quote:

I can't answer until I know what this stuff is.

Torque ...two objects that turn in the opposite direction connected by a mid piece that is capable of storing elastic energy

How do you generate power?

Hitting up the middle can be used to teach good coil/uncoil or load/unload sequencing that is the equivalent of learning to load and unload well in golf by hitting from inside/out to cure slice,slice usually being caused by club being swung "over the top" or outside-in ("hitting around ball") which is associated with "rushing" or interruption of coil/uncoil of trunk.

be careful in going to the wide stance that you don't end up suppressing the "positive move".

beware what bb calls the "dead hands no stride" where you stamp out the positive move and the upper body load.

evidence from golf suggests to me that the quick hitting swing requires arms loading in a different plane from the shoulders (Lau knob pull,Epstein work elbow up a little during drop and tilt).
in golf,there are 2 distinct succesful patterns, one where the arms load in a plane higher than the shoulders (2 plane load) and one where the arms load in the same plane as shoulders (1 plane load). The latter swing is fine for golf,but lacks quickness and does not fit with the adjustment mechanisms (up/down/in/out) necessary in hitting.1 plane golf is like dead hands/no-stride hitting.

also in golf,even though the VAST majority of players are N0-stride,there still needs to be a weight shift/carry/positive move, but less so in the one plane load pattern. Same applies to hitting - this is the same idea as the advice I mentioned from Lau which is that the weight must go forward right(carry/shift/hip cok)/enough to enable pulling the knob, both of which he considers absolutes to avoid the poisons of "back foot" and "2 piece" hitting.

Linear you will probably know this one the best. In an effort to learn a little more about *****'s ideas, can you tell me some of the major league players that he has taught or continues to work with. I would like to watch some of his work in action to see how it plays out. THanks.

None of us coaching or teaching should minimize vision practice. PG made great points about tracking. On our high school teams, all bp includes track-4, tracking 4 pitches which coincides with bunting-4 and situational hitting in groups of 4. When a hitter is standing around waiting his turn in the cage, and pitchers are doing pen work, we have the hitter stand and in and track. They can all use more of this and it helps them relax in the box and really works with zone hitting.

Coachric

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:

Hands back / foot open torque? TURN TORQUE

Or bend at the waist / unbend LEVER

Any other energy sources ? Bat knob TORQUE

Thanks for the definition of torque. When you define these I'll answer.

If I was in a Tee hitting contest I would pay attention to golf more than I do.

As long as I have to react to a ball coming at me at up to 100mph, I'll pass on most all golf analogies.

One in particular......the X factor. It does not exist in the high level baseball swing.

quote:

Originally posted by hsballcoach:
Linear you will probably know this one the best. In an effort to learn a little more about *****'s ideas, can you tell me some of the major league players that he has taught or continues to work with. I would like to watch some of his work in action to see how it plays out. THanks.

Barry Bonds, Albert Pujols, Manny Ramirez.

Wow - He taught those guys how to hit a baseball?

Never knew that.

Just to throw another log on the fire. Apparently those players thought so much, that none of them offered a testamonial? Bonds=cheater, Pujols, and Ramirez were studs since high school. Not saying I disagree with all of the teachings, just that I would like to see a little more evidence. I think it is one thing to observe and state what good hitters do. It is another to help each player reach their potential using an individualized aproach. I think that one of the most important points that has been brought up is that many of the things that are being stated are things that have been around for many many years with a few refinements. I do not believe in buzz-words but rather what the words are saying. Sometimes they can offer new ideas that refine older ones other times they take credit for reinventing the wheel. The key is to learn something from everything you come across but never fall so in love with something that you can't see other methods.

quote:

Originally posted by hsballcoach:
I think that one of the most important points that has been brought up is that many of the things that are being stated are things that have been around for many many years with a few refinements. I do not believe in buzz-words but rather what the words are saying. Sometimes they can offer new ideas that refine older ones other times they take credit for reinventing the wheel.

Refreshing (and somewhat of a relief) to see that someone agrees with me - despite my lack of "pedigree". LOL

quote:

One in particular......the X factor. It does not exist in the high level baseball swing.

What is BBScout talking about with the hips 4-5 frames ahead of shoulders.

In the quickswing it doesn't exist your right.
You don't need it to slap hit a softball 110 feet.

Linear...says

As long as I have to react to a ball coming at me at up to 100mph, I'll pass on most all golf analogies.

Who threw that 100 mph that you had to react to?

xfactor exists in my opinion as much as THT (active as well as inertial/passive).

xfactor is perhaps easier to measure as with skilltechnologies skillcheck motionanalysis for example.

it is also important to distinguish between xfactor (presence/degree of separation which everyone knows occurs) vs "xfactor stretch" which denotes a dynamic additional stretch before reversal which among other things harnesses elastic tissue properties,etc for efficient reversal/quick unloading. The "N" word might be "cusp".

here is an old thread addressed to teacherman and "N" ("O'really")that gives examples of the measurements:

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/10685.html

and a definition of xfactor stretch which can be measured in hitting as well as golf:

http://www.advancedmotionmeasurement.com/XFactorStretch1.htm

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:
Linear...says

As long as I have to react to a ball coming at me at up to 100mph, I'll pass on most all golf analogies.

Who threw that 100 mph that you had to react to?

We know two people it wasn't.

Swingbuster and Tom Guerry.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Wow - He taught those guys how to hit a baseball?

Never knew that.

Oh, did he want the truth? You guys accept everything but the truth from everyone else? I figured I'd join in.

quote:

Originally posted by hsballcoach:
Just to throw another log on the fire. Apparently those players thought so much, that none of them offered a testamonial? Bonds=cheater, Pujols, and Ramirez were studs since high school. Not saying I disagree with all of the teachings, just that I would like to see a little more evidence. I think it is one thing to observe and state what good hitters do. It is another to help each player reach their potential using an individualized aproach. I think that one of the most important points that has been brought up is that many of the things that are being stated are things that have been around for many many years with a few refinements. I do not believe in buzz-words but rather what the words are saying. Sometimes they can offer new ideas that refine older ones other times they take credit for reinventing the wheel. The key is to learn something from everything you come across but never fall so in love with something that you can't see other methods.

Don't forget the religion factor.

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:
xfactor exists in my opinion as much as THT ...

As close to the truth as you've ever been.

Linear,

I think it is just awesome that he taught Barry Bonds, Albert Pujols and Manny Ramirez how to hit.

That is just wild - as Johnny Carson used to say.

Linear - If you tell me he also taught Ted Williams and Willie Mays how to hit - I am just gonna freak.

LOL

quote:

What is BBScout talking about with the hips 4-5 frames ahead of shoulders.

What is BBScout talking about with the hips 4-5 frames ahead of shoulders.

Teflon Linear...what does Scout mean?

quote:

The guy who had the least movement...up,down, backward or forward was Bonds. His head never left the grid and had "almost no movement".

His head may be free to move, but it moves less than any of the other top hitters.

Bbscout, almost no movement????????.......You mean like a little bit pregnant?......

The head moves, plain and simple......Head movement is a good thing......

quote:

Bluedog,

Please tell us how you would teach a young hitter to utilize vision for the best results. Or do you believe vision is not that important?

PGStaff, vision is important.......But, greatly misunderstood by most Coaches.......

Focal vision, looking directly at the ball, is not what should be taught......However, most Coaches do teach this......I say, what a mistake.....

quote:

Why is head movement a good thing?

Because, a hitter cannot create chaos wihout head movement......

Create "chaos"?

Is this yet another new term for the New Year?

Blue, how does more head movement give you better results? I must know.

I guess Bonds is in a lot of trouble then since he moves his head.

quote:

Create "chaos"?

Nobody answers my simplest questions ususally but I will try anyway.

What is "chaos" as you reference it to the baseball swing?

quote:

nice answer, but Bonds can create a lot more chaos than Green.

Bbscout, I really don't think either one of us knows just how much chaos Bonds, or Green creates.........Other than to say alot.....

It's not just about creating chaos......It's also about controlling the chaos once it has been created.......Who can do this better?....Bonds....

quote:

If you move your eyes in the direction the car is moving you can see it very well for a longer period of time.............it’s called TRACKING.

PGStaff, I left some of what you said out, but the integrity of what you said has not been compromised.....

The problem I have with "tracking" is twofold.......Coaches teach to track the ball all the way in.....This is wrong, as pitch recognition needs to happen very quickly....Also, the head has a tendency to move with the eyes when "tracking" is taught.........And, IMO, the head should never pivot toward the catcher.....If it does, swing technique will be affected......A hitter's head should always pivot toward the pitcher while swinging............

Hitter's do need to get a quick look at the pitch after it is released.....Then, the eyes should stay in front of the ball and let the peripheral and brain decide the speed.....And, this happens much more quickly than most Caoches understand.....There is pitch recognition time (by the eyes), brain information processing time (by the brain), decision time (by the brain), and actual swinging time (by the body) involved in half a second or less......The technique of "tracking" involves time that just isn't available to a hitter........

And, on top of all that, amateur hitters are taught to balance to the ground, keep the head still, and find the swing plane with the hands and arms, which is a slow process.......Add "tracking to the mix, and..........

I see Mankin's at it again. He moved the quickness thread to the top.

He's been given the answer by at least 3 people I know of. Wonder why he doesn't post 'em.

Nice guy....very "religious".......no clue.

BTW buster.....first try......no prior knowledge.....off the Tee.....I told my son swing as quick as you can.......line drive over the mound.

I expected no different because I see him do it all the time off the swing-a-way. I hit off it probably 3, maybe 4 times per week. All mine go up the middle.

Maybe the garbage in garbage out theory applies to your guys.