How will you teach hitting?

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:
Notice....when the front foot is down, Brett's hips have not turned open much.....

...In the low level swing, when the front heel is down,the hips have opened quite a bit already (power leak overturning hips/poor timing of separation/coil)...

More bull ****. Heel drop is one of, if not THE most insignificant event of a swing. The heel drops when the hips push it down. The hips start when the signal to go is given/received. Pay attention to the real stuff, please. Comparing ones heel in relation to their hips reveals absolutely nothing.

Brett started his swing when his brain said go. Who really cares where the heel is at that point.



Reconcile your previous bull **** with Bonds, please. There are at least 3 frames of hip rotation before solid heel plant. That in a 5 frame swing.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I actually wanted your opinion... from the waist to the feet, do you feel that hitter in the first clip is using his lower body correctly. Is he getting maximum rotation and power in that swing?

Guess I don't under stand the Phase 1 - Phase 2 thing. Is there a phase 3?

Not arguing, just curious.

Using it properly?.....For his stage of developement.....yes.

Getting maximum power?.....For his stage of developement........close.

There are more stages.

These are good swings for "their stage of development". They are conquering the quickness mountain. They have good bat quickness "for their stage".

It's

What does it take to hit a curve ball? What swing trait is most important to hit the curve?

quote:

Brett,if in accord with the lau model is consciously applying arm action to assist loading much like donny has described in a way that fits with laus "knob pulling" cues. I am not sure how brett himself would describe it.

Tom,
Don't have clips PG does... BUT ISN'T Brett in a closed stance all of the time. If so that puts your hands "hidden" from the start. Your feet hips and shoulders are in the same line also to oppo field. To me this brings up a whole new model if you line up closed. There is no need for arm action to hide you hands. Your step open gives some connection.

I see a select few of the MLB players that don't have arm action get closed to get there hands inside the target line at swing initiation. Not something that is ideal or that you would teach.

Guessing ...you might find ( or I think I see) some degree of "counterrotation" in Brett and Edmonds to get flail bat displacement. I think a closed stance is induced counter rotation that players have adapted. I personally agree with NY-man that it is bad and that there is a better way to get power.

Any method that doesn't allow the batter to use the whole field when the pitcher uses the whole plate has some weakness. Staying pitch neutral( up the middle) with the your line of direction going into foot plant ups your odds of a hit maybe

Griffey forces his hands hidden in the set up. Again not very teachable and hard to get two eyed contact on pitcher. Not a stretch to see a slight counter rotation with him in certain view. Still a great swing from side view. You will also see his lead elbow close ; rear elbow high.

On my " hit LD up middle drill" I can get closed and do it out of the 45 slot easily. But that is cheating. I am still hitting the outside of the ball I have just shifted my body to make the ball go up the middle

BBScout,

Go to MLB.com and visit the Mariners page. Take a look at any of the Ichiro clips to see how well a player can hit using the knock knuckle grip. Five seasons and a .332 batting average with 200 hits in very one. Who, in your opinion, is the better hitter, Rose or Suzuki? I'd take either at the top of my lineup, grip notwithstanding.

My point again is that there is no manual that defines the ultimate grip of a bat. It's about comfort. I use knock knuckles to offset a problem many young hitters experience, looping the bat to get the barrel onto the same plane as the ball. Ichiro happens to use that grip.

I asked my son this morning to show me how he holds the bat. His top knuckles are actually closer to Rose's grip than Suzuki's. It was a change he made over time and I never noticed. His hands went where they were most comfortable as he got older. He's doing OK for himself, so I wouldn't even suggest lining up his knuckles today. It served a purpose when he was in Little League, though.

You want MLB success with that grip, go look at Ichiro. I don't know how to upload it here for you or I would.

MJM

You advocate video. Go look at the video. It's right there. The MLB clips are conclusive and filmed in a game situation, not a practice swing or even Ted Williams having a converstion with Yogi Berra.

Check out the hands...

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brew/image/2001/spring/suzuki0313.jpg

[quote]looping the bat to get the barrel onto the same plane as the ball.

Just an observation...no dog in fight

A-B hand path can use kk grip. It is a commonly a linear hand path thats quick. It is most often an outside in swing in kids .The hands often lead the hips because they can and will if given a chance.

Middle/ in pitches.. you can get some hip turn as you hit the ball out front to aid this straight line hand path and generate some pop.

away locations...scratch you head ...kids will take these pitches many times because hitting them just doesn't feel right. Or sometimes they are simply late by default and hit an oppo shot

In rotation hitting, looping can be a problem if the weight doesn't shift to firm the front leg/ set the right axis and /or the child / bat/ strength relationships are out of balance creating to much inertia.

Strength and athletism ..... a two tool kid....get um at the draft

BBScout,

You gave me Ted Williams... Ted Williams in a conversation with Yogi!

The MLB video is undeniable. You're right, video is great.

Let me know when we can move on...

Here's Green:

http://www.laist.com/images/shawn_green-thumb.jpg

You can see it on the Mariners MLB.com page. I cannot upload the URL.

"I would personally like to thank Mr. Suzuki for how he holds his hands on the bat" It shows that there is no rule to gripping a bat.

Will you go on forever? I sent you a pic of Green, in action also, and you can see the Ichiro video for yourself. Are you so narrow that you cannot accept that hitters do not all have to hold the bat like Rose and Williams to be successful? I acknowledge that Rose and Williams were great with their grips of choice. And my original statement pertained to teaching Little League hitters.

Donny-

Regardless of how Brett thought about (or didn't think when going well) things, his swing fits the Lau description (by definition since he is the Lau poster boy).

The 2 things necessary to "FIX" "linear" 's (or should we say "spinear" since this is the typical N Y M A N connected spinner,worsened to "spinhook" if subsequenbt hook is emphasized) cage kid is :

1- Good forward weight shift/positive move (for instance if Edmunds were swinging you would see the weight go dramatically forward before the hips start their turn open. Lau (Jr.- LAUS LAWS) makes the excellent point that without this definite forward "shift" - or "carry" if you like the Dixon term - you are not able to "pull the knob" (what Lau considers essential arm action),so there also needs to be the Lau absolute :

2- "pull knob" with lead arm,not shoulders.

Notice how Brett internally rotates the lead arm as the hips turn open. This is the major portion of arm action that keeps the hands back in this off the plate longer swing radius style (that also goes along with the more closed front foot). This is the same lead arm action that Epstein describes as always working the lead elbow up a little in the "drop and tilt".This is the primary action Lau is referring to with his "pull the knob" cue.

Lau also encourages compatible back arm action/breaking the "top hand dominance habit" by his open top hand and other type drills (open top hand gives feel of apllying "tht" consciously with resulting perceptible quickening of swing).

The kid in the cage shows a dead hands no/minimal stride approach which leads to spinning in my opinion. Some say this is just a drill to insert a good action in the swing, but I don;t buy that.
Admittedly I have used new/confusing words to describe this,but if you want a traditional description, just read Lau, epsecially on "poison of back foot hitting" which this is an example of even though the weight gets off the back foot still not a good positive move.

Lau would address the positive move with a "walkup drill". He also has drills for the lead arm knob pull and the prevention of top hand dominance (again see LAUS LAWS).

Brett's lead arm action is NOT the dreaded independent arm action BDOG mentions. It is well synchronized arm action assisted shoulder loading that quickens the swing by optimizing coil.

Good info from LAu also regarding the details of front leg action which I doubt is the same as the way BDOG and "linear" see it. But what does Lau know ?

Anyone seen those ironnyman models ?

The last thing I am is upset. I truly enjoy the debate and I hope I always convey myself as respectful to you. That is my intention. Disagreement is not dislike.

I am no hitting expert and I hope to learn many things on this site. I don't state that every hitter has to have his knock knuckles lined up. My own son no longer does, as I said earlier. It is a teaching technique that I use that works well with younger hitters. Your approval, again, is not necessary. The fact that Ichiro does or doesn't hit that way doesn't change why I had young kids do it.

While I respect your background and knowledge, you are not the judge or evaluator of what people should or should not be able to do or say in this string. There is no requirement for video that I saw when I registered here. You like it, so I went and found Ichiro for you. Frankly, I'm surprised that a professional baseball guy like yourself is so brick walled at the thought of things like different grips and teaching tools.

I don't mind leaving myself open to questions or different opinions. I have no problem accepting better concepts, corrections or other's viewpoints. I'm left to wonder if you can say the same thing...

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:



Reconcile your previous bull **** with Bonds, please. There are at least 3 frames of hip rotation before solid heel plant. That in a 5 frame swing.

You must have missed this, Tom. Conveniently? To save face? Please reconcile for the "listeners".

Linear,

One concern( possibly unfounded) in hitting is about having the front leg accept some weight. There seems to be a fine line between good front foot action and some spinning in my mind . Maybe it is fixed with the load/ unload method you promote. Could you describe it or cut and copy any info about it that you believe.

I think Bonds on this swing stayed back spun maybe more than his best swing as the ball seemed to go very high off the bat. How do you see the elbow movement pattern in Bonds swing? Is it much different from Ny-mans model?

N Y M A N models/ "ironnymans" and THT:

Back in the latter days of the last century, there were some very good dicussions between Jeff Hodge, "N" and Mankin on Hugens site.

Mankin was doing his steering wheel knob experiments and Hodge was producing his bare bones video (BIOMECHANIC BASEBALL) and N thought a great model to further study things woult consist of a flywheel mass as torso with a flail/2 piece whip bat connection. This became more easily possible using computer software simulations which N made available. He should get tremendous credit for this (and other things)series of models. The rotational_simulation5 was created especially to assess the "THT" concept, or perhaps more accurately to "PUT A FINAL NAIL IN THE THT COFFIN" - a thread title at that time.

The simulation has a rectangular torso/flywheel.Single rods are connected by pin joints at the front and back "shoulder" to simulate the arms.The end of the rods are pinned to the bat handle.The bat is another rod.

The "lead arm" rod is fixed (connected) to the flywheel torso by a rigid connection to the midpoint of the lead arm rod. The bottom hand end of the lead arm rod is constrained so the rod/lead arm will not lengthen.This is then the flywheel plus 2 piece whip model with the lead arm being one piece of the whip and the bat being the second,connected by a pin so as to have double pendulum type action.

The purpose is to look at forces where the back arm/top hand connect to the bat. The back arm "rod" is pinned at "pin joint #50". The computer simulation turns the flywheel and the forces can be measured at any of the pins for example. Weights or mass are assigned to the various components - flywheel/rectangle,arm rods,bat rods.

The experiment is run, what is found happening at "pin joint #50" ?

This is about a 9 and one half minute clip, and at between 3 and a half and 4 and a half minutes in, N says : "there is a total force at right angles to the bat that wants to create bat rotation in a way that quickens unloading of the bat...I don't want to use the word top hand torque, but in essence, this would be the best example of top hand torque"

To further clarify what is happening, ***** runs the experiment with weight of the back arm near zero and at 10 pounds (computer program works with weight not mass) and with the back arm unpinned from the back shoulder.

This demonstrates the force to be a result of the structure of the levers, N: "a merrygoround or figure skater effect of the mass of the back arm attached to the shoulder" it "causes a much quicker releas of the bat".

N further interprets:

"..But there is no muscular motion, only reaction to turning of the torso flywheel with the arms connected.....this rotational force on the bat if you want to call it top hand torque is not due to conscious effort to apply tht..it is the result of the mass of the back arm connecting the bat wanting to fly out due to the centripetal or centrifugal force of the rotating body.....you could never feel,never perceive this, but it is a hugely important dynamic in terms of its effect on the bat."


So in summary, the program demonstrates a crucial force without using muscle. In spite of the fact that this apparently rules out humans using muscle to implement this mechanic, ***** goes ahead to show what the effect of such an active force application with the back arm might do in the next model- simulation_rotation6.

In ironnyman#6,we now have the new official N name for this thing we do not want to call tht that involves a torquing force where the top hand connects to the bat that quickens the swing.The new official name is (drum roll please):

"top hand/back arm inertia"

In this briefer demo,then N tries to support his intepretation which is that THT exists,but is purely passive/not perceptible (Lau open top had rill or Mankin golf club drill notwithstanding,pay no attention to those people behind the curtain).

N states that the only way active force could be applied actively by the back arm would be by either arm extension or "shoulder" (actually upper arm) INternal rotation. Internal rotation makes no sense, so he only tests the "extension" possibility which greatly degrades the swing.

How else might the human body actually apply/harness this mechanic to greatly quicken the swing analagous to the Lau "open top hand"/nondominant top hand experience Lau mentions or the way mankin describes it ?

I would say that it is simple to apply this via EXternal rotation of the back arm and that of course human muscles can implement this mechanic and early enough to be easily conscious and perceptable.

Try it yourself.

Then ponder the teacherman credo, I could just be:

"another obstructionist who is more interested in protecting his belief than finding the truth".

In any case these are great models, but their interpretation may be faulty when the belief system is threatened.

It could be me.

See what you see.

I'm amazed at your propensity to ignore the core of our discussion and immediately go to the video. You should be a Sportscenter host. I know how Williams held the bat. He didn't line his knock knuckles up like Ichiro does. I agree totally with that.

I'm hoping to learn lots from Linear, Tom and even you down the road.

Just a thought I had while I was reading. We discuss in depth the theories and various aspects of quickening the swing and proper load and harnessing force. These are all important by the way, but we totally seem to be focused on the power homerun swing. My question is, do we have to specifically have each of these skills for every hitter? Where does the fast as lightning hitter with good hand-eye coordination fit in this. Should they be trying to achieve maximum force or focus on getting the sweet spot of the bat on the ball in order to let their legs aid them on the ball hit in the outfield? Drive the ball yes but not trying to do too much with it. Just some food for thought.

Provides a strong foundation and helps protect young hitters against overstriding or opening their front foot.

Its all in the game-

I am sorry I am so bad at communicating this.
As bb says I am not a clip sender type.You can just assume i stay onthe couch and watch a lot of TV. I can point you to clips and other sources.If you want the traditional description that I'm sure you can undertsand, Lau Jr does an excellent job (I prefer Epstein,but both get the hitting job done).

This reference below has the motionanlysis type data that lines up with Lau's traditional description. The motionanalysis is more precise in sorting out hoe in side vs out mechanics vary and how typical low level vs high level swings differ.

Lau describes the low level swing as back foot,swing while striding,top hand dominant,2 piece swinging.

What the motioanalysis shows is that the typical spinning swing gets poorly staged coil/uncoil, body turns together with shoulders catching up to hips,bat decelerates then is reaccelerated by wrist roll- this is the 2 piece aspect- the second reacceleration.

In the high level swing, there is quick acceleration to contact with the shoulders lagging behind the hips more for outsdie location and not having caught up in either case by contact (if they do catch up you will have decelerated or decelerated-reaccelerated).

Lau describes well how to use weight shift and arm action to coil and uncoil well and adjust in/out by focussing on front knee frimup timing for example.Peavy calls it full transfer hitting after Lau Jr.His internet stuff is good too peavynet.com.

data from skilltechnologies old batspeed post:

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/10533.html

Good History Tom...this is what it means to me


A high rear elbow with considerable mass slotting down as the bat changes plane applies a tremendous force accelerating the bat into a rearward rotation and breaking inertia.

The lead elbow going up into the pitch plane is applying the similar force to the knob with no real consciecenss of the arms and hands.


If the wrist/ arm stays fixed there is not muscular feel (during the rear elbow slotting and simultaneous raising of the lead elbow) of adding bat speed( since it is happening behind the body) but it is real and occurring.

An added benefit is to counter balance the stride momentum to prevent lunging

An added benefit..angular bat displacement

An added benefit... creates time and need for solid lead foot plant ...stops spinning

You can actually put the bat in a vertical plane and drop the rear elbow as you elevate the lead elbow and hit a ball hard even with your feet together and hardly feel the effort...try it

Now look at Bonds in a different light

Tom,

Thanks for taking the time to explain that again.

BBScout,

I believe every word of what you just wrote..now when was the last time you coached a kid and really had to teach something? Young hitters often pull off the ball as a natural instinct. A wider stance leaves less opportunity to do that. Can you visualize that, or am I going to get a million clips of Honus Wagner's stance or Joe Morgan's stride now? The stride is a timing device more than anything else. With younger players, the wide stance gives them less room to make a mistake. Instead of giving me Stan the Man or Harmon Killebrew, find fault with the actual concept and maybe, for the first time here, I can actually learn something from you.

quote:

Originally posted by Baseballdad1228:
BBScout,

Young hitters often pull off the ball as a natural instinct. A wider stance leaves less opportunity to do that.

With the little guys - and even some of the bigger ones - I used to address "pulling off the ball" without tinkering with the stance.

Very simple thing to do - unless the kid was just plain scared to death of the ball.

BBScout,

Let's just move on. I'm disappointed with your inability to grasp simple teaching concepts and your disconnection with what it takes to coach young hitters. I see no point is defending simple techniques to a man who claims an extensive baseball background and truly should be able to comprehend them and understand their usefulness.

I'm just glad to see two people arguing and me not be one of them. Of course, when I'm involved it's me against the hsbaseballweb army.

This site can make someone get a complex.

But, I'm fighting it off.

Yes, it can.

Reflecting on the whole thread:

I think the most fascinating part of this thread is that there is virtually nothing here - and I mean nothing - that wasnt taught 40 years ago to me by my dad.

New words may have been "invented" - we may get some scientific equations thrown in - but the bottom line is there is nothing new IMO.

It really is remarkable.

Its, I agree...just that there so many more experts now that computers are in play.

Baseball1228,

I guess the use of high quality video has been the biggest change IMO.

You know - for years now - I would read - and comment. Because I didnt know the fancy new names - or didnt have a protractor handy - I got called alot of names. LOL None were very flattering.

But the ability to "see through the mist" is important. In any endeaveor IMO.

I am glad we have so many fine coaches that visit here - and I hope they keep visiting and contributing.

I know I have asked bbscout many questions over the years - and I like his answers because I can understand what he is saying.

Just some observations.

You can understand me.....but you won't.

It's a good thing you can't understand Tom......no one can.

On the contrary, I understand alot of what you write. It takes some time - (kind of like reading a book while someone is flinging mashed potatoes at you - LOL).

I just dont agree with some of your stuff. Especially the lack of emphasis on the importance of the hands/arms and wrists in the swing.

And Tom was kind enough to break down his explanation for me a little yesterday.

Its all in the game-

I think that is a good point.Nothing very new under the sun for a while.

You might look for that old book BATTING, a compilation of a sportswriters MLB interviews up until about 1925.Hundreds of pages of advice fromt the great oldtimers most of which still applies.

Ty Cobb describes Babe Ruth as the one who really developed these mechanics because he was a goofy left handed pitcher,he was left alone the first few years in the bigs to hit however he wanted.

This optimized arm action way is what he settled on and he could do it with heavy lumber whereas the modern guys prefer the light stuff.

Cobb called the Babe a "home run specialist".

Also the atsroturf small ball years caused a lot of forgetting as have metal bats.

The (me/we?) new discovery people invent a lot of fancy names and hypnotize themselves,even to the point of starting to believe the "scienec" of their models and not the reality of what the hitters do/have in common. This kind of "science" can convince you things like the hands are "just along for the ride" or there is a better mousetrap, But I don't believe that.

Its,

I'm new to this and really am excited about being able to learn from guys like Linear, as soon as I get up to speed on the buzz phrases...

Thanks!

If you two will stop I'll tell everyone that each of you got the last word.

How about this....me playing traffic cop.

If you two don't stop I'm going to tell MN-MOM.

Just kidding......carry on.

BBScout,

I offer reasons for what I do with my kids that you selectively ignore...I understand the value of film when properly utilized, not when comparing apples and oranges...I understand the difference between a square peg and a round hole...I have a great desire to learn from those with the ability to teach...and there is nothing wrong with simple when it works well to make a young child a better baseball player. And I can easily recognize a condescending statement when I see one... It's OK. I'll still do what works well.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Hey Linear, I liked the clips of your kids. Of course clips have no value Who was the old guy flipping the front toss?

Don't call me OLD GUY!!......

That's my best TR impression.

bbscout
Which page did you post the clips of Rose, Williams, and Robinson? This thing has gotten so long I could be looking forever.
Thanks.

I read most of these discussions on hitting and sometimes feel like jumping in. Then realize I don’t have the time or energy needed to keep up with you guys. Then someone like Tom or even at times swingbuster decides to post things that make me feel like I don’t have the intelligence to keep up. Tom Guerry is the hitting version of Tom House (that’s a compliment) but I really don’t fully understand what is being said. Kind of like a foreign language to us dummies.

Seeing that you guys are constantly debating hitting and I try to read it all, I’ve noticed some changes in beliefs by some of you over the last year or two. I personally think that is a good thing. It reminds me of a good student rather than someone who has learned it all.

Personally I am a firm believer that half (maybe more) of hitting is natural talent. I also believe that the visual and mental side of hitting is at least half the remaining half. Then a good portion of the rest involves getting stronger physically. What’s left is technique and it’s still very important, but some seem to think it is the only thing keeping people from being a great hitter. Technique alone is almost useless to most of those without natural ability. The perfect technique does not guarantee producing a good hitter, but it sure can be important to the hitter who has the other qualities. JMO

One good reason for widening the stance is there is less movement before foot down. There is less changing of the plane of the eyes. The farther you stride the more your eyes go from high to low. There is more focus on rotation with small stride rather than long stride. Long stride is actually more conducive to linear technique. And if the front foot lands before anything happens, there can be no real benefit from a long stride. It has nothing to do with hitting, but some feel it is part of their timing and approach. Anyway I think young kids are best off spreading out more than most of them do. This makes it much easier (less elements) to do things correctly. IMO

Often the word comfort is used, but the most comfortable position for almost everyone is to stand straight up with feet under the shoulders. The most important thing is being in the best position to hit, not the most comfortable position. See Jeff Bagwell! Of course, the most important position is at contact.

My theory on spreading out or using a wider stance has nothing to do with actual hitting… In younger players it has to so with eliminating a useless maneuver (long stride) that has no benefit in most cases. It makes things easier for most to widen out! Sometimes the positive results are immediate. There have been MLB hitters who spread out slightly more in two strike counts. Canseco for one!

These discussions are fun and educational for me. I think I’ll climb back into the cocoon now, if you guys will allow that. I’ll continue to keep reading. Great thread!

And just how long have you let all that build up?

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
but I see well below average hitting coaches at both the college and minor league level of play...

Aaaaaaa a men!! Aaaaaaa a men!! Aaaaaa a men!! A men!! A men!!

Can you hear the tune?

I agreed 10,000%

BBScout,

PG writes about a wide stance that cuts down the possibility of mistakes and a short stride and you tell him it's a good post?! Now I know what it's like to be a rookie in a veteran clubhouse!!!

Your most recent post was very informative and made lots of sense. Maybe I really can learn from you...