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How will you teach hitting?

L Linear500+ posts
Hey, Swingbuster and Tom.guerry. I got to stand about 5yds away from Albert Pujols taking BP this morning. Just outside the cage.

Eat your heart out.

And, he has no arm action in his swing.

He can really bring it from his center though.

Seriously, I had an appointment with the head basketball coach from Maryville University (St. Louis area) this morning and what do you know, several professional baseball players were working out in their gym. Pujols, Mabry, Benes, Simontacchi, Van Slykes kids....others I didn't recognize.

I wanted to cancel my appointment and watch more.
Last edited by Linear
L Linear500+ posts
There is no question, the quickness of Pujols can not come with any arm action.

Standing right next to a hitter like Pujols is essential for anyone who thinks they are a hitting coach. Until you experience the quickness of the mlb swing by standing right next to it, you can easily settle for something less. You can easily make the wrong decisions. Especially about arm action.

MVP of the National League, a hitter who's first 5 years stats are unmatched by anyone in the history of the game. It was awesome.
L Linear500+ posts
One other thing. It was pretty cool to see Pujols talk to the young guys about their swings. He was teaching as he was waiting for his turn. Very relaxed informal atmosphere. The Van Slyke kids had to love it......almost as much as me. Smile

I overheard him say "It doesn't matter where the bat is. What matters is where my hands are. When I get my hands right here...." And, he would demonstrate by "scap loading" and pelvic loading, although he didn't call it that. He did not work his bottom hand under his top hand or make any mention of using his arms to tip the bat toward the pitcher.

And, he also wanted to "attach the bat to his arm pit and leave it there". Then rotate.
Last edited by Linear
T tom.guerry100+ posts
I would think if the swing is really quick, you would want to catch it on video before deciding what the arms and scaps might be doing when and what he might mean by the hand comments.

The clip you posted earlier is likely representative of his typical mechanics.

-Weight goes forward before hips turn open (golden move,good kind of "hip slide"),then

-hips turn open lead by lead leg turning open,synchronized with back arm etxernally rotating (synchronized external rotation/mapping of back arm and lead leg

This rear arm external rotation action is what is primarily responsible for starting the bat plane transitioning to a more horizontal position,back scap needs to continue loading/pinching at this point to enable sequential middle up coili/uncoil to later drive the shoulder link. Thsi means arm action NOT scap action is "causing" this.

-next,lead arm internal rotation takes over and accelerates the bat back toward the catcher,"working lead elbow up a little","keeping the hands back" as they go "up and over". This action creates a quick final stretch of trunk to allow more efficient uncoiling/reversal(creates efficient "cusp" dynamics) and keeps the hips from overturning prior to unloading.

Good positive move in spite of no (minimal) stride.

Good hand action (via arm and scap action) to avoid "dead hands/no stride".

Hands are able to stay back at arm pit as hips open creating optimum coil dynamics (x-factor stretch) in part because of good arm action/plane transition.Also optimum ability to adjust plane late to match pitch.
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
quote:
Originally posted by Linear:


I overheard him say "It doesn't matter where the bat is. What matters is where my hands are. When I get my hands right here...."
And, he also wanted to "attach the bat to his arm pit and leave it there". Then rotate.


Linear, did you think it odd he was talking about hands? I know you're not a proponent of it. Also, I agree that where his hands are is where he wants them "set." I think we discussed this as well. (This is NOT intended to be some snide comeback. Discussion!)

I've also been next to the cage when he has hit. I've been blessed to get to do that a few times. Wow. One of my major problems was that it happened so fast that I was often caught up in the flight of the ball after contact.
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
quote:
I overheard him say "It doesn't matter where the bat is. What matters is where my hands are. When I get my hands right here...."


Bottom hand under top pattern in front of rear collar bone....duh!!

causes the bat to be where it is...then plane transition and bat barrel acceleration ..all occurs at his arm pit. Thats why it isn't long and slow.



COACH B25 says

Also, I agree that where his hands are is where he wants them "set." I

I agree , the starting point( set) fosters the hand torque at initiation and movement pattern

Linear says

"And, he would demonstrate by "scap loading" and pelvic loading, although he did not call it that.

Pujols said" what matters is where my hands are ; When I get my hands right here...."
"


SwingBuster on Post 5 said"

Now put the hands stacked almost vertical and close to your right collar bone...



Pujols said "And, he also wanted to "attach the bat to his arm pit and leave it there". Then rotate

SwingBuster page 2 of 35

"start it there and relax your hands and hit". Watch what happens .....

Your honor " I rest my case" Sounds like Linear has met a MLB guy that can break that mental block
Last edited by swingbuster
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
...Linear, did you think it odd he was talking about hands? I know you're not a proponent of it. Also, I agree that where his hands are is where he wants them "set."...


Not at all surprised. For someone who knows how to use his center like he does the ONLY thing left is "how to connect the hands to the rotation."

And, as many know (a few like swingbuster and tom guerry have no clue) getting the hands set in and around the arm pit AND LEAVING THEM THERE is one of the clues to good connection. In his case great connection.

Posture, connection, rotation. That sums it up pretty good. No arm action. No bottom hand working under the top hand. No tipping the bat to the pitcher and then reversing it with the arms/hands.

Up close you can clearly see the scap load, pelvis load and posture is what tips his bat. The hands are silent.
Last edited by Linear
L Linear500+ posts
Swingbuster

When you figure out why he said "it doesn't matter where the bat is" you'll be close to the truth. Then again, you're not interested in the truth.

Because it's not important what the hands do to the bat. What is important is where his hands are and how they get there. All this while he perfectly demonstrates scap loading, pelvic loading and proper posture.

Not once did he demonstrate bottom hand working under top hand. Or tipping the bat to the pitcher. Remember, he doesn't care about where the bat is. The only way to get the bat where you want it is to use the hands. And he doesn't care where the bat is. He wants his hands in their position.....and he does it with scap loading.

As I've said and as he demonstrated, there is no hand action nor arm action in his swing.
Last edited by Linear
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
quote:
For someone who knows how to use his center like he does the ONLY thing left is "how to connect the hands to the rotation."


Couldn't have said it better myself linear

The corollary might be my point of view about whats missing from posture, connect, rotate is...the starting position of the hands.

How many times have my descriptions tried to physically describe where they start and how that will effect the outcome of posture, connect, rotate.

Why would he be so insistant about their location if it did not have a huge impact on the quality of HIS rotation.

We can argue why the hand starting location is important from the science angle but as a teaching cue with kids it has absolutely no value. If it works like it does and adults cannot agree on it ; then maybe even rhetoric has no value.

The ONLY thing left is what you left out and what I have been posting about. Put your hand here for a pretty good hitter and the rest( bat path ect) can be a no teach ...it WILL happen with a good rotation... I said "put them there and just hit".

Now can we expand one phrase...

Posture, hand location, connection, rotation.

It could be a good marriage. applaude

OBTW your recent statement

"Up close you can clearly see the scap load, pelvis load and posture is what tips his bat.

Can you reference anywhere in this thread where you previously mentioned the bat tipping can or should exist. The hand location was described over and over and the cause and effect determined to include good scap loading.

You implied that if you knew anything about how to use the core; hand location was a useless consideration. Pujols disagrees.

Pujols measures cause and effect by ball flight. That is what we do with middle tee drills. It is much more convincing to kids and the coach watching the ball flight....the ultimate feedback.

When you cannot hit effortlessly gap to gap off a tee then something is wrong with your swing. Put your hands where Pujols starts and you can ...you can tell us why or I can tell us why...the bottom line...the ball flight will have the last word

enjoy


Pujols

http://www.grandstandsports.com/pages/11822.htm

Hank

http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/aaron/photo5.html
Last edited by swingbuster
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by swingbuster:
...Can you reference anywhere in this thread where you previously mentioned the bat tipping can or should exist. The hand location was described over and over and the cause and effect determined to include good scap loading.

You implied that if you knew anything about how to use the core; hand location was a useless consideration.


You have no intellectual honesty. None.

Your entire premise is arm action. Hand action. Bottom hand working under the top hand. Tipping the bat head toward the pitcher with the hands. In summary, hand/arm movement

That is significantly different than "where to set the hands." Totally different issue. Everyone has to start the hands somewhere. Including hitters using posture, connection and rotation. It is covered rather clearly in the connection stage. Your young hitters will disconnect from rotation 95% of the time because the hand MOVEMENT (not placement) will force them to. The two moves are almost mutually exclusive when learning good rotation. There is a very low percentage of young players who can do your move and stay connected. Next to impossible. Your movement is an Add On to increase batspeed once bat quickness is learned. That is an absolute if there ever was one.

Please reach into your honesty bag and admit that yes I have mentioned bat tipping can or should exist. If fact, I believe your comment after that post by me was........nice post, linear.

Quite frankly all you want to do is muddy the water so you can look a little closer to smart.
Last edited by Linear
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Linear:
There is no dispute that players have different usage of their hands and arms.

The point here is you are teaching it as a "way to hit". A way to improve. Do this and you'll be better.

That is far from the truth.

The reason why a Sheffield or a Bonds or a any other "army" hitters do that is they because they can. They can generate better batspeed by doing so but that doesn't mean you or I can.

The difference is in their center. They already understand how to load/unload their center. They are experts at it. They have perfected it. Their quickness is maxed out. So, they then turn to improving batspeed. Quickness allows you to catch up to all the great pitching. Batspeed adds distance to their hits. They can do that. They are rock solid in their center. They can experiment with adding speed.

The problem is, you and I can't. And neither can 95% or more of the players we encounter. They don't have their center under control. They don't understand the load/unload process. They are not as quick as they need to be.

So, you come along and say "do this with your arms". At their current level of competition and quickness, they have success. They look at you like "wow, that really made a difference." Yet, 2, 3, 5 years down the road in no longer works. The pitching is much faster. The quality of the breaking pitches are much better. The reaction time is greatly diminished. And your students generate really good batspeed but can't get the barrel to the ball because it takes too long for them to launch.

Unless and until they learn connected rotation from their center their "arm action" style of hitting will take them as far as their athletic ability goes. As long as they are "athletically gifted" as much or more than the competition they will be fine.

But, to advance a far as they possibly can, they will need to add "skill" to their athletic ability.

This is why so many "obvious" D-1 stars don't make it very far in professional baseball. They have never added "skill" to their "athletic ability".

This is also why someone like John Olerud, who is known to have the one of the slowest batspeeds in professional baseball, has the success he had. I've heard his batspeed in considerably less than most mlb players. But his "skill" level is very high.

Finally, a good coach is one who knows the difference and won't let the players read his press clippings. The coach who tells a player what he needs to hear versus what he wants to hear is extremely valuable down the road. The problem is all the misinformation and therefore the lack of quality coaching at all levels of baseball.

In this country it is ridiculous how small a percentage of kids that reach the top level of the game. They have been very misguided. In fact, whether one makes it or not is purely chance or "luck of the draw". They "discover" what works purely by chance through their own trial and error. Nothing wrong with trial and error. That's how everyone learns. But, trial and error in this country is set back thousands of hours by things like "arm action" hitting philosophies.

I'm still waiting for video of the hitter.


Please take note.
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Linear:
Just because all the greats didn't think "load/unload the center" or "load my scap" or "set my posture" or "stay connected" that doesn't mean it's not what they were learning to do. In fact, that is exactly where their trial and error process took them. Today, we can shorten that process by paying attention to these "better defined" terms.



This perfectly describes Pujols talk with the "kids" yesterday. He's probably never heard the terms.......yet he demonstrated them perfectly.
T tom.guerry100+ posts
I thought buster also said :

quote:
Originally posted by swingbuster:


Lastly,

I must question the implication that any of todays great hitters perfected the middle and then added upper body arm and hand action as icing on the cake applied at some later date to go to the next level for bat speed.

These is no evidence in the Science of Hitting that Williams supported or suggested a staggered system of learning to hit.

There was no evidence of this in Gwynn's book and I have seen no early Bond footage that their swing was a transitional process training the hips and progressing to include arm and hand action later.

There is no evidence in Dusty Bakers book either

IMO...The reason is that it did not happen that way for any of those guys nor can anybody give any supporting evidence that it did. The first written material supporting the superiority of that teaching style came from you know where. How great a contribution that really will be is still a question for me personally.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Linear,

A question – Do you know for sure that Pujols was talking about the STARTING position of his hands? Is it possible he was referring to where his hands are at contact?

Whether good rotation or not, the hands can not go to the same spot on all pitches. This is what many describe as hitting with their hands and I think it is confused with something else at times.

Overall, I see it like this… 0 strikes – hands end up basically in the same spot all the time, as does the bat. 2 strikes – hands must be able to get to best position to cover entire strike zone. I’m talking about contact point in the good rotational swing. We can call it your rotational swing, but even in your swing, adjustments have to be made.

Only reason I bring this up is because I’ve heard many excellent hitters emphasize the hands much more than the bat! This does not mean these hitters would dispute what you believe. The bat does what the hands tell it to. The hands do what the body tells it to. The body does what the brain and eyes tell it to do. I would say your emphasis is mostly on the body, regarding the swing. I agree with this, but consider the hands an important part of the body.

The hands play the biggest role in any adjustments a hitter has to make. I was in St Louis on opening day 2004. Brewers beat the Cardinals, but Albert Pujols hit a double off my son on a high inside fastball. It was not a text book swing and IMO he did it mostly because of his hands! By the way, it should have been scored an error on the 3B. Smile Went off his glove into the stands (was hit hard).
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Linear,

A question – Do you know for sure that Pujols was talking about the STARTING position of his hands? Is it possible he was referring to where his hands are at contact?...


There is no question he was talking about his starting point....the point he wants the hands in order to launch.

Also, in a good swing at a good pitch the hands don't move much at all through contact.

A swing at a not so good pitch, or if you're fooled, is another story. That is the final "adjustor" that the hitter has. If you've used up this "adjustor" to get to a good pitch, you won't be around long.

First, you won't have enough batspeed.

Second, you won't be able to make adjustments.

The bat gets to the balls location, in a good swing, with posture adjustments.
Last edited by Linear
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
...The hands play the biggest role in any adjustments a hitter has to make.


Disagree. The posture makes the biggest adjustments. The hands make those last second, do or die.....mostly die adjustments.

A good hitter can cover almost the entire strike zone with posture and slight arm adjustments. Up and down is almost entirely a function of posture. In and out is some posture, some arm extension or lack of it. Arms remain bent or "let out a little".
Last edited by Linear
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
In other words the arms and the posture help get the hands where they need to be. It's all the same, just depends on the discription. If you unbend your arms or change placement of hands (isn't it the same thing?) Can't do one without the other.

It seems to me that you understand the role of the hands and arms, but think it's best to concentrate on other areas. I can understand that reasoning.
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
In other words the arms and the posture help get the hands where they need to be. It's all the same...


Yes it's the same with the arms....No with the posture. The arms moving the hands is a completely different issue than the posture moving them. The arms moving the hands has an entirely different effect on the ability to rotate than what the posture does. In fact, moving the posture has little effect on ones ability to rotate. And, in a good swing at a good pitch, the hands/arms barely move. And the movement they do have comes from the forces of the rotation......not independently.
Last edited by Linear
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
Linear writes"

There was NO question he was talking about the starting point....the point he wants the hands in order to launch"

HONESTLY YOU CAN SAY I HAVE NO HONESTY AFTER THE SAME THEME>>>HERE WE GO ROUND IN CIRCLES FOR THIS LONG.... HAND POSITION VS CORE FOCUS OVER AND OVER it is documented 20 times that is what I said.

YOU BROUGHT PUJOL'S POINT OF VIEW TO THE TABLE NOT ME.



He also didn't mention learning the middle and then getting into learning about the hand position later...why?

WHY? his hand position helped him rotate better because he gets inside out( CHP) with bat displacement every swing...it is called consistency....get it...hands start in same place ....not where you might load them to...consistency.... coachable point, still; not moving....



"Put them there and just swing"..stacked...in front of rear collar bone.

Now are you going to take 630 more post to convince us that is what YOU meant all along and Pujols is just another feather in NY-mans cap and his hitting comments support your previous belief system?

Something tells me you will try....
Last edited by swingbuster
L Linear500+ posts
That's right. Mostly with the Reds but traded to the Mets, then he hurt his arm. I think it was the '86 team.

Anyway, were you a Mets fan then? What was the local "scoop" on him? Keith Hernandez, in his book "If At First" was kind to him......said he was one of the hardest throwers he'd seen....or something like that.

He had a career of wildness (would walk too many) but was rarely hit hard. Probably an under .500 record. One year he had like 19 losses with the Reds. Believe it or not, that's pretty good. They don't keep running you out there to get 19 of em if they don't like you.
Last edited by Linear
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
It just dawned on me. This topic has over 12,700 views. (Hopefully that isnt by just 7 or 8 people. LOL)

Usually a very contentious topic - but I have to say - all things considered - the discussion is actually bordering on the edges of civility - with alot of good thoughts coming from alot of different angles.

JMHO - but it is good to see.
Smile
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
"Agreed that the core muscles help make the hands quicker as they stay "connected" to the core. This still doesn't explain how to get those hands "set" or ready to work in conjunction with the core."

CoachB25, not sure what you're calling "core"....The hands and arms connect to the shoulders.......This is done by scapula loading.....Locks in the "box" which is formed by the hands and arms......This is the upper body load.......
Last edited by BlueDog
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
Coach B25

Pujols said..hand location was important in the set up.

I had defined our hand set up as stacked bottom hand nearly under top.. out from rear collar bone.

Pujols said he felt that the hands stayed there through stride initiation. he said they stayed in the arm pit

I feel the lead elbow is close to chest and rear elbow elevated and internally rotated. I feel the top hand over and the bat tippng a bit. You can split the helmet and have a little less stacked hands. You should try the hammer lock drill. Same set up but tip the bat to 2B. Just take a regular swing and you will feel the rear hip coil to facilitate the bat path. Great drill for getting the barrel out oppo and great drill for feeling the hip coil. If you do that and "maintain the box through half the rotation" to use theri cue..you will like what you feel IF YOU ARE AS BAD AS OUR GUYS...and your not

Scap loading the rear is very hard if the lead doesn't concurrently "slot down/ in close'.LEAVING THE LEAD ELBOW UP WILL RESTRICT THE REAR FROM INTERNALLY ROTATING FOR MANY GUYS. IT IS THE REASON SCAP LOAD ATTEMPTS CAN FAIL.

I have my guys adopt a spine angle/posture and get the feeling that the lead elbow is just hanging straight down from the shoulder socket lose. Some of them move the rear elbow in and up in the waiting position some dynamically.

I was told that the ***** cue is "maintain the box through half the rotation" not a bad teaching cue and a true statement. Our cue was reverse the relative elbow positions maintaining bent elbows...same result when I watched it. The bat plane transition IMO helps maintain this box and get power as the arm movement occurs with bent elbows

To me they are the same action. I just heard there version today. They slipped out some good info by mistake I guess. There will be a reprimand...especially now with money at stake
Last edited by swingbuster
ShepsterShepster1,000+ posts
"maintain the box through half of the rotation" This sounds correct because it helps load up larger muscle groups which create whip-like motion. This generates great power as well as speed because you will be hitting against a firm/rigid frontside when the other half of the rotation is completed.
Good Stuff/Keep it coming,
Shep
Last edited by Shepster
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Maybe I missed something... I asked Linear if Pujols was talking about his hands at setup or contact or overall in the swing. I didn't hear an answer, but swingbuster mentioned a couple of "Pujols saids" regarding the set up and stride initiation. Did I miss something?

I've talked to Albert before and I feel fairly certain he did not use the exact words "stride initiation".
Last edited by PGStaff
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Linear:
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Linear,

A question – Do you know for sure that Pujols was talking about the STARTING position of his hands? Is it possible he was referring to where his hands are at contact?...


There is no question he was talking about his starting point....the point he wants the hands in order to launch.

Also, in a good swing at a good pitch the hands don't move much at all through contact.

A swing at a not so good pitch, or if you're fooled, is another story. That is the final "adjustor" that the hitter has. If you've used up this "adjustor" to get to a good pitch, you won't be around long.

First, you won't have enough batspeed.

Second, you won't be able to make adjustments.

The bat gets to the balls location, in a good swing, with posture adjustments.


You missed something PG.
ShepsterShepster1,000+ posts
uh oh, Shep's in trouble...

Okay, it seems that a hitter hitting off a firm rigid front side as Rosie does in his clip would almost have to be finished with his lower rotational turn as BB so graciously points out, as well as Frank and Billy. It must be my eyes are mistaken and playing tricks because of the momentum in the follow through and BB Doug just might be right after-all.

Darn Its, we had him for a minute, why did you withdraw? LOL

Shep tater
Last edited by Shepster
P PASSION10+ posts
The most overlooked area in hitting is correct timing - or to say it another way "timing the pitcher". Most batters are late in their swing. I do not care how good your swing mechanics are - if you are late getting your front foot down - you will have a hard time hitting the ball. Again timing is a very critical part of hitting that is overlooked.

Another fine point is to always keep the top hand palm facing the pitcher - even on the load. This will help you to be shorter to the ball.

Another fine point is to always keep the knob of the bat (when pulling it down) inside the plate.

Again correct and good timing will determine alot of your success. Err on being early if in doubt.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
PASSION,

With all due respect… We see more hitters who are actually too early rather than too late. I think it’s a product of not wanting to be late. You see this a lot on all pitches other than the fastball and it’s probably the biggest reason many hitters have trouble with breaking balls. The hitter who gets his stride foot down too late would have the worst timing imaginable.

The top hand palm should be facing up at contact would be the general consensus, and if the knob ever got out over the plate hitting would be next to impossible. IMO

However, I sure do agree with your thoughts on timing, however I don’t think it’s overlooked at all.
ShepsterShepster1,000+ posts
You can bet if the knob is ever over the plate that hitter is a sweeper and we all know what that means. Lots of extra firewood-lol

Timing is important and sometimes does need an adjustment in certain situations.(especially for a rookie who has a P72 or M110 in his hands for the first time after swinging an aluminum bat several ounces lighter for his entire baseball career up to that point)

You guys have been waiting in the wings. Patience is a future around here.

Good Stuff, Keep it coming!
Shep
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
Shep,


Sounds like you have been away for awhile.

Heres the scenario:

The gazelle comes in - sometimes wounded.

Linear will inflict the bite.

PG, bbscout and a few other coaches will add wisdom and varying perspective.

I will come in after the kill, and make a smart-*** comment.

Bluedog will then call me a bad name.

And then we will start all over again.

LOL
Wink

P.S. Actually - I think alot of folks learn some things during this "hunting process" - so it is usually worth it IMO (The Gazelle may not agree with that conclusion)
Last edited by itsinthegame
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
quote:
Another fine point is to always keep the top hand palm facing the pitcher - even on the load. This will help you to be shorter to the ball.


Passion..please come back...finally a guy that gets it.

THey have no clue how the loading process works and how it determines naturally when the foot gets down.

I feel like Cinderella left the party.... find the guys that fits that slipper.

Maybe the cue of the year..seriously. Maybe if they get this they can see it

Guys...keep the top hand palm tilted and facing the pitcher during the entire load..... until the bat flattens. This is maintaining the box through 1/2 the rotation..changing relative elbow positions..shortest most connected route to the ball that gets the barrel working in the right direction ....geez.

You are so quick to be the the thread cop and insult rather than clarify you miss the real teachers....this guys is brillant,


No wonder your stuck on stupid

God Bless Passion ...something to take to the field
Last edited by swingbuster
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
swingbuster

According the "BOBBSY TWINS", Linear and Blue Dog , Passion knows nothing.

Perhaps that is because he gets it and they don't.

The "TWINS" continue to offer no substance but abuse all posters who oppose the "GURUS" proclamations

Have you ever seen an internet model hit .300 in any league at any level?

You can talk all the physics and dynamics you want but teaching htting is still "one on one" because every baseball player is unique until himself.

Quick thought: Stan Musial--one of the greatest hitters of all time--do you teach kids to emulate his stance? I think not

Even the NLB hitting coaches have their own style and belief--there is no absolute in baseball as each player is differnet in ability, physical makeup, eyesight etc--

Just a few thoughts
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
“Every morning in Africa, a gazelle wakes up. It knows it must run faster than the fastest lion or it will be killed.

Every morning in Africa, a lion wakes up. It knows that it must outrun the slowest gazelle or it will starve to death.

So…it doesn’t matter whether you are a lion or a gazelle…When the sun comes up, you’d better be running." LOL!
P PASSION10+ posts
I'm back - just got on the site. Wow! Couple of followup items.

I am surprised by some of the comments re: timing. Talk to most hitting coaches in the minors and majors and they will tell you that most mlb hitters are late 60% of the time. This is a statistic that was given to be by a professional hitting coach. Being late (and I mean just a fraction) is a big problem - not being early. At the high school and college level the %'s are alot higher. Again if you are late getting into a hitting position (even by a hair) you will greatly worsen your ability to make solid contact. For alot of hitters - it is not their swing that is the big problem - it is their timing. Just my opinion.

Re: the "palm facing the pitcher" - I was referring to the load and not the point of contact. Alot of batters when they load have a tendancy to rotate their wrist on the load. Just a slight rotation (quarter of an inch) can greatly break down the swing. Again just my opinion.
ShepsterShepster1,000+ posts
Passion,

You may just have a valid point here about timing being more of a problem than the actual swing.

So many times, it is obvious that a hitter can be over-matched by a blazing fastball with good movement and simply can't catch up to the ball.

So many times, the actual plane of the bat as determined by message sent to brain via hand/eye coordination doesn't figure in that unidentified late movement-lol This will cause you to miss the ball with bat anyway.
Food-for-thought
Shep
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PASSION:
...My suggestion is to be on time 100% of the time.


Nice goal. Now a taste of reality.

Why doesn't anyone hit a 1000? Because it's impossible. Hitting is very difficult. Pitchers are paid nice money to make sure you aren't "on time 100% of the time".

So, now you come along with a number that says hitters are late 60% of the time. Really? Well, the best hitters in the world hit .300. For the most part, they are on time 30% of the time. I bet their timing is off a very high percentage of the other 70%. And you want us to believe its better to be early than late. (your words....better to be early than late)

I can guarantee you a loss in BA and a loss in power numbers if their goal is to get their foot down early.

Yes, it's complex. Much more than you know.
Last edited by Linear
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
Even if your timing is correct 100% you still won't hit 1.000-- too many things involved---this is a taste of reality

I do not see the correlation between being on time 30% and hitting .300 --in theory a batter can be "on time" 100% of the time and still hit .300

I am with Passion in that some posters, coaches and so-called instructional websites make hitting more difficult that it truly is.

I am not saying that hitting is not difficult , just that some try to make it much more difficult than it really is
P PASSION10+ posts
Linear - point well taken. All of this is very complex.

All I am saying is that in a majority of the cases, hitters get themselves fully loaded and into a hitting position too late. If you took my 60% number to heart it would look something like this:

A batter loads and is in a hitting position too _________ _____% of the time.

1. early 10% of the time

2. on time 30% of the time

3. late 60% of the time

I am talking about getting ready to hit the ball (fully loaded) and not when you swing.

Looking at the statistics above - tell me where the focus needs to be on trying to be ready on time more than you have been.

Next time you go to a high school game, college or any game and watch the batters and see if they are loading too late. Most of the batters will be starting their load after the pitcher has released the ball and getting their foot down right when the ball is crossing the plate. I mean you will see this in 6 of the 9 batters in the starting lineup.

Yes they will go to their practices and work on their swing mechanics, etc. - but nothing will be said about getting into a hitting position/loading earlier. They will think they are on time - but they are not.

This timing thing is also true on breaking balls, etc. It is not just with the 93 mph fastballs.

I think if loading late is more the case than loading early - I would tell batters who are having a problem - to load earlier than you think you should - and maybe they would be on time more often than what they currently are now.
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PASSION:
Looking at the statistics above - tell me where the focus needs to be on trying to be ready on time more than you have been...


Write this down. Memorize it. Don't ever forget it. Don't let anyone ever tell you different.....

If you're afraid to be late you will never hit your potential.

Think about it. You've just told us 60% of all hitters are late. Guess what........that includes the best hitters that have ever played.

Go tell them to get their front foot down early (so they won't be late) and watch their BA and power numbers drop dramatically.

Hitting is difficult. A very hard thing to do is to time the load/unload to the pitch. Why? Well, first of all, pitchers are trying to f with you. Secondly, there is no such thing as a load. There is either loading or unloading. And this load/unload has to be very quick and well timed.

And because you can't just load, hold it, wait and swing....that is why you just can't put your foot down early.

It's a wave across the country and it's pure hogwash.

And I bet Swingbuster is disappointed because he could sell a lot of contaptions if what you say was possible.
Last edited by Linear
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
quote:
And I bet Swingbuster is disappointed because he could sell a lot of contaptions if what you say was possible



Linear...shoulders loaded/ closed and foot down with toe 45 degrees...torque...get some ...

You remember that musical group..THE SPINNERS.Did those guys play for you

YOu have a little damage control over at the castle beyond the mote see my new topic/ discussion
Last edited by swingbuster
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
now BlueDog...really..how do you measure the hips a few frames ahead of the shoulders then. I know your not that pure Ny-man.

OBTW...did he add something to posture connect rotate like SEND THE BAT BARREL BACKWARDS. Has that been there or did he just learn it was a big part of the MLB swing. He sure said it. Maybe he was afraid people were realizing it really was important and he was afraid we would think Mankin reported it OVER AND OVER AND OVER

He posted it as he fired Steve on set-pro and chastized and disowned Mark H.

"In hitting, torque is a fallacy"

Epstein spoke by invitation to the 3500 members of the ABCA as the keynote speaker on this chosen subject.

You, Linear, against 3500 ABCA members and a guy that played college, pro ball and teaches lectures, writes for Collegiate Baseball, Certifies coaches, ....people fly from all over the worlds to seee him and has sold 50,000 DVDs and as many or more hitting books. He has made taching his life's mission.

these are the kind of statements that lost Ny-mans credability...Why follow that. NO torque...spinning is good, close off the lead foot, two stage teaching, ....weak and incorrect stuff..we ain't playing fastpitch here

And what have any of us done close to EPSTEIN..you go first
Last edited by swingbuster
ShepsterShepster1,000+ posts
Guys_Guys

Sorry I'm in the middle of this volitale situation and apologize because I can tell you guys do mean business and I definitely don't want to get caught in the cross-fire. ITS wasn't kidding.

I have no horse with loaded saddle-bags in this race. Simply want to discuss hitting.

Definitely been away tooo longgg...

Sincerely,
Shep-unloading now-lol
T tom.guerry100+ posts
How about some other nymanisms for starters:

Arm strength doesn't matter

Top hand is along for the ride

There is no such thing as tht, just a torqu ing force applied to the bat by back arm inertia that greatly quickens the swing

or some he thought he had to revise:

upper and lower body are separate motor programs

Griffey has the best swing

scap loading isn't that important in hitting

others?
Last edited by tom.guerry
P PASSION10+ posts
Linear, all I am saying is maybe being just a slight bit earlier on your load. I am not saying to get your foot down while the pitcher is holding the ball or anything. Listen if you are just getting your foot down when the ball is crossing the plate, then you have absolutely no lower stability to hit the ball with any power. Atleast getting into a hitting position a slight bit earlier - will give you a more stable lower half. I cannot see how anyone would disagree with this. Michael Young (Rangers) bought into this and became a hitting leader. Hank Blaylock did not and had a very subpar season. Again all I am talking about is a very slight adjustment.

Re: pitchers trying to mess up your timing. This is nothing new - the good ones do a good job in this area. This is why a batter has to have a CONSISTENT timing approach - no matter what the pitcher is doing. You cannot come up with a different timing mechanism for every pitcher. You have to have a consistent approach - no matter what the pitcher is doing.

Getting into a hitting position slightly earlier, etc. helps you slow the ball down and I believe helps you see the ball better.

Again we are not talking extremes in this case. Just a slight and more consistent approach to timing.
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by swingbuster:
quote:
Sorry, but there is no such thing as "shoulders loaded". Either loading or unloading.


I have a picture here of Hank Aaron he looks like he is ready to hit. Are they loading /unloading or loaded.

*****......... *****


"I have a picture of Hank Aaron....."


This folks is living proof if you needed more than what he's already given.
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
..And what have any of us done close to EPSTEIN..you go first


I guess this means you believe in the fence drill.

I guess you believe in elbow slotting.

I guess you believe in ALL your weight remaining over the back leg.

I guess you believe the rear elbow can lead the rear hand.

I guess you believe in drop and tilt.

I guess you believe in weathervaning for God's sake.

He's almost as much of a quack as Mike Marshall. Not quite, but close.
Last edited by Linear
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
New Ny-man quote "posture, connect, rotate, get the barrel going backwards"

At what point did your egomaniancal guru get some new religion. It is now a simple FOUR step process. He invented plagarism.

He and Engishbey fighting over the rights to three words and then boom...there comes the fourth phrase.

Did he finally see hand torque....took him 4 years after Mankin described it. Quick learner

THe tee drill Steve is doing on the "mother of all pathetic post".... I assume is teaching connection. If you taught it any later you would hit the ball into the catcher.

I guess if spinning is your swing you better get used to a very late connection
Last edited by swingbuster
T tom.guerry100+ posts
Teacherman-

You have definitely got the dogma down.

A few more protestations of faith like that and you may get out of the doghouse.

I hear they have some openings over at the scientific site.

You can help perfect the no arm action/no torque fastpitch swing.
Trouble is it might not be best there except maybe in the mens game.

At least Epstein and Lau are describing the actual high level baseball swing.

I don't think you create the baseball swing from the middle out, you have to work the ends of the body against each other(thigh/hips vs arms/scaps).

But maybe I'm not scientistic enough as they say on the Colbert Report.
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by swingbuster:
New Ny-man quote "posture, connect, rotate, get the barrel going backwards"...


Misquoting people is swingbusters main artillery. His mechanics won't stand up so he misquotes others. 3 or 4 examples of it in this thread alone.

And, he loves to air others dirty laundry.....helps detract from the holes in his hitting theory.

Keep those arms moving, Swingbuster. Let me know when you want them to connect.
Last edited by Linear
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by tom.guerry:

At least Epstein...is describing the actual high level baseball swing.



Right, Tom. Now, visit his site and look at the good swing examples he posts. Better yet, tell us right here, have you ever seen a mlb hitter that looked like this guy????

These are examples of "his work".

When is the last time you saw a mlb hitter fall back toward the catcher when he swings?





I know this is a still picture. I'm not computer smart enough to get his .gifs to work here. Go to http://www.mikeepsteinhitting.com and play the .gifs. Your only conclusion can be.......QUACK.

Yet, he's Tom's boy.
Last edited by Linear
ShepsterShepster1,000+ posts
That was a very good illustration of a "young" hitter who is well on his way. Definitely hitting against a firm/rigid front side.

Reminds me of a early pictures of Tiger Woods Wink

P.S.(That rocking back motion must be attributed to the paint roller at the end of the extension not seen in picture; reminds me of how I used to rock back when swinging a rake when I was about that age and how I would rock back-lol Is it a paint roller or rake?)

Shep
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
posture connect rotate.......oops and get the bat barrel going back .........if you know how.

Working top half against the bottom defines how the middle works. THere is no other way to work the middle.

***** did not know how to work the top half back .... he should have listened to Mankin about the top and Epstein about the bottom simply taken credit for the end result
M Mr3000100+ posts
quote:
Does the swing have to be so scientific?==why not just show them?

Young players do not understand the terms used anyway

Isn't it better to be "one on one" and show them what you mean without all the misunderstood terms ???---

TRhit


Definately one on one is the best way to go. As Cal and Billy Ripkin say, "celebrate the individual." And as I mentioned before, I thinks it's best to throw some specific science stuff as well as some simple non-science stuff when teaching the hitter.
RollermanRollerman100+ posts
tater
TR,
There are some of us that think everything can be interpreted though scientific methodolgy.
There are some of us who think that everything can be explained in terms of scientific understanding..... and there are some that cannot or will not understand that type of explaination.
Some have become extinct and some still do....stink.
But the constant is change. Baseball is finally catching up with other sports in the method of analysis and teaching. What and how we teach in the future will certainly be different from what we teach now. Don't discount scientific methodolgy, it's what has made western civilization great.
Rollerman
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
Linear ...this is what you don't get about how discussion groups work. We do care about your thoughts. So why don't you get off the "grader' side and post a few paragraphs about

How Linear thinks you should load the pelvis?

We can read it. THere will likely be some tips I can use there ...I can help my players...so on and so on.

The Ny-man thing is over. That culture is over. He did you guys bad , not in his total teaching, just in how he had people emulate his authoritative arrogance.

It is not becoming and doesn't work for me.
T THop100+ posts
Bob started a great site here and after being a member for 3 years, I’ll tell you the clips I’d like to see the most. Some front views of Barry Bonds, Jim Edmonds and Vladimir Guerrero at their computers corresponding with Linear and Blue Dog during this thread.

Secondly, “How will you teach hitting”?

What would happen if everyone just tried to take what they have learned about hitting and make it less, instead of more, complicated? Are we here to help more coaches help more hitters or to make an Encyclopedia Nimannyca and/or Niman-Webster Dictionary & Thesaurus Online?

Lastly, does more physical strength and less fear of the ball need to be factored in when we compare clips of MLB hitters to those of youth and higher level amateur hitters?

Thanks,

THop
Last edited by THop
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
Linear--you always rap others for having a closed mind--look in the mirror pal and stop regurgitating "stuff" from other supposed teaching sites--you only have one way and that is "yours" or should I say your Gurus.

By the way how much you get for your "lessons" in the real world--you know anyone can "teach" in cyberspace
Last edited by TRhit
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
Tim...good post..

I was visiting by phone with a coach in Houston yesterday. We were laughing at ourselves a bit. We decided that you could take one group and teach mechanics and another and teach the mental side of pitch count and looking FB zone and the later might win.

You are correct.. you cannot put a mechanically sound swing on a ball when you are afraid to assume the hitting posture in time to swing.

Again, your right about strength. My next door neighbors 7 yo has a hard time with rotation swinging his game bat without total body strength. He can with a Swiftstik

Furthermore ...the pitches he will be lakely facing for two years will have so much arc on them that he will have to stay on his back foot to get on plane

It all must evolve over time
Last edited by swingbuster
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by swingbuster:
...how he had people emulate his authoritative arrogance...


You poorly define the "attitude". Has little to do with authority. Little to do with arrogance. Has everthing to do with dealing with misinformation and falsehoods and getting rid of them.

I didn't learn it from him. I learned it growing up in a pool hall. It's called "street smarts". It's called "separating truth from fiction and not being afraid to point it out".

Try spouting some bs in the pool hall. You'll get a degree of red a$$ that you'd rather not have.

It's probably the highest form of honesty. Not the most politically correct. Not sugar coated........just not afaid of telling it like it is. Telling someone what he needs to hear v what he wants to hear.....with gusto.
Last edited by Linear
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
quote:
Hey Swing,

Is your next door neighbor's 7yr old playing slow pitch softball?

Write back soon,
Shep



If he does I will get Linear to teach him to spin angry

Linear...posture, connect, rotate, and get the bat going backwards.

I know my reading previledges were rovoked on ****** but when I was booted Paul was not mentioning the fourth one. I haven't heard you mention it. Why did Paul write it in his post
Last edited by swingbuster
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
Swing,

Disappointed that you think anyone would care about this nonsense.

Maybe if you stuck to the subject - and left out the inane soap opera **** - you would get back on track with your usually very solid suggestions. IMO.

I also think that if you - and whomever else - want to piss all over each other in the continuing moronic "wars" - you should do it on your own bandwidth.

IMO - You guys are starting to treat this place as if it is your own personal playground - with no responsibility to anyone or anything other than your own egos.

I certainly expected more of you.

Very disappointing. IMO
toilet

Do us all a favor - elevate the conversation - and teach something.


JMHO
Last edited by itsinthegame
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by swingbuster:

Linear...posture, connect, rotate, and get the bat going backwards.

I know my reading previledges were rovoked on ****** but when I was booted Paul was not mentioning the fourth one. I haven't heard you mention it. Why did Paul write it in his post


First of all, what you've quoted is not written in his post. Another misquote. Another dishonest effort on your part.....of course, when your facts don't work your ONLY shot is to shoot the messenger.

Aside from that, that 4th element has been around a long time. I'm guessing 2 maybe 3 years. It is not what you describe. It has nothing to do with the barrel going backwards.....and I bet you've actually heard it before, for quite some time, and are distorting it for your use. More dishonesty.

Has more to do with the knob than the barrel.

But, you won't get your education from me.
Last edited by Linear
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
quote:
Do us all a favor - elevate the conversation - and teach something


its..

Count my words and count his and see who gives full teaching responses.

Just doing a little back door stickin up for my friend Steve.

I have found a new way to enjoy these forums.

You read anybody's post and guess Linears three word rebuttal and slowly pull the bar down and see how close you get. If he ever gets sick or something he might give me his passwords and I can "keep up the bad work"
Last edited by swingbuster
ShepsterShepster1,000+ posts
ITS

Apologize to board for my role in that nonsense.

Turning over new leaf. Let us get back to the art of how to teach hitting properly at benchmark level of proficiency.

Back to Rotation>BB ITS Linear Bluedog and several other of us came to the conclusion that bottom half rotation is 98% completed at contact. ITS brought up interesting topic we can ponder about the legs and how they contribute to the process of hitting.

I propose the stronger the legs the farther and harder the ball sails upon contact. Any takers?

Shep
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
Linear ...I honestly think upon reading others post he realized that the bat barrel path generated by hand torque was really important in creating resistance and inside path. After reading what was written about

posture , connect, rotate...he just decided to get ahead of the curve and do the Vasco de Gama and stake claim on upper body mechanics for himself too.

Al Gore invented the internet....why not ?

BOTW..its...I'm "as they say in holdem"...all in on the subject...sorry
Last edited by swingbuster
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by swingbuster:
Linear ...I honestly...


You know what they say when the first thing someone says is "honestly"

quote:
...I think upon reading others post he realized that the bat barrel path generated by hand torque was really important in creating resistance and inside path.


"I think"......as in speculate, hope, need, want, desire.....to frame him and his theory this way.

Don't let the facts get in your way.

The following two hitters are synced to toe touch.



In an effort to help you "see" what you can't see I've given you some free advertising.

You know, any ad is better than no ad......even a negative ad.
Last edited by Linear
ShepsterShepster1,000+ posts
Charterer and founder of a little league program named after me which has grown to several thousand with 8 fields must be that missed big opportunity that I miss-LOL

Need picture of my name on side of pressbox on main field? Would you like for me to email it to ya? Bloomfield Little League in Macon,Ga

Reference:B.L.Clark who is current president.

Sorry pal, you are very wrong in your analysis/evaluation of the Shepster.

What I miss is the big opportunity to evaluate, recommend and sign worthy HS/College/free-agent pro prospects while getting paid to do so-LOL

Paid my dues with the little kids a long time ago but still not beneath me and do occasionally help kids even now with their baseball.

Shep tater
Last edited by Shepster
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
He wraps 380 foot HR as 9th grader...you do that?

Wrapping is breaking down forearm / bat angle less than 90 degrees....don't think so.

The striking part of the barrel will be aligned with the spine at toe touch from a side view on good hitters. That barrel position at toe touch is not wrapping OR all MLB players wrap...you chose

All rotational mechanics accelerate the bat barrel backwards.
Last edited by swingbuster
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
quote:
He's going to have to shorten it up like the big league hitter does


Agreed...he is a little long here but he is working off a tee drill station with the ball toss location inside his lead foot post stride.

His head is down and the real hitters foward...this does alter the set up some.

We are comparing a drill station against 88 MPH pitching. They will not be identical I am sure.
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
BBSCSOUT,

Been thinking and dicussing Brett. Talked with a big kid that hit like Brett and played for Kittrell at U of South Alabama.

Brett is closed which puts the hands inside the line every swing even with no negative move. His bat is flat and he uses flail to turn the shoulders and send the bat in the correct arc getting the bat through the zone. THese guys tend to hit the ball out front and have good power.

This 30 something, ex-college guy outlined how he did it. I recall his HS days and hitting balls people are still talking about.

It really is a different style and I am not a big believer in style...but I must give in here

Steve E quote
"can you create movement which facilitates connecting the momentum path of the bat to the momentum path of the shoulders---such that they very quickly become ONE angular momentum path.
Last edited by swingbuster
ShepsterShepster1,000+ posts
BB

Brett is hitting off tee in not live. Hard to evaluate swing that is not in game situation.

He is definitely wrapping to some extent though which probably attributes to why he was late all the time and most of his hits were to the opposite field throughout his career.

This clip of Bonds simply demonstrates his ability to stay relaxed in his arms prior to the start of rotational movement so that he won't tighten up and contract too soon which will slow bat-speed significantly.

I teach a hitter to develop some kind of methodical rhythm or movement prior to the actual rotation as demonstated by Bonds. If you will notice the batter without a significant hitch gets back to the proper stationary bat position much quicker.

Shep
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
quote:
Bat should remain stationary during beginning process of uncoiling lower half


In all respect this is at the core of this dicussion. The batters ability to get angular momentum from a stationary position is what IS in question . If this is your opinion then you are right for many hitters and there are many that cannot get the barrel out from stationary beginning
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
shep

This is a quote from Mankin.... understanding HIS point of view took some time and study for me.....

Keep in mind as you practice, although hip and shoulder rotation is important, the ultimate purpose of all swing mechanics is to rotate the bat-head – first, back toward the catcher. Therefore, as you concentrate on inducing hip rotation, concentrate even more on accelerating the bat-head rearward – this may help you keep everything in sync.
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